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When I said Electricity = Oil I meant they are in direct correlation to one another...in other words...electricity comes from burning oil/gas...at a lesser efficiency. It is not advantageous at this point in technology to use an electric powered vehicle...hybrids yes but that in itself can be argued upon.Originally posted by gyu
What advantages does electricity have right now that puts it on an equal level as oil if efficiency is worse, cost is higher, etc.?
Banned
Natural gas is not necessarily a fossil fuel..... we have now discovered methane on celestial objects that have no life.Originally posted by Commanderwiggin
So where do you think electricity comes from? The majority of electricity is produced from fossil fuels...coal, natural gase,
Coal is significantly different from oil in my mind, and NEW clean burn coal technology is far more efficient and cleaner than anything gas powered today.
Besides, we have wind mills, damns, solar panels, wave generators, geo thermal etc.
Human innovation and history is full of people refusing to change, and coming up with reasons why "it cant be done", or "it's a waste of time", or.....
In early 1899-1900s, electric cars outsold gas cars, and a portion of the UPS delivery fleet in New York was electric. Gas won cause it was almost free. It's a shame it took us 100 years, and pollution catastrophes like LA, China, Northern Alberta etc for us to start "innovation" and invention back on track.
Last edited by Toma; 04-10-2011 at 05:00 PM.
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I agree with all of this...and I agree in change...I am just clearly stating...that at this day and age...electric cars require more energy than gas powered cars do. This includes all aspects of production of the energies involved to get the car rolling on the pavement.Originally posted by Toma
Natural gas is not necessarily a fossil fuel..... we have now discovered methane on celestial objects that have no life.
Coal is significantly different from oil in my mind, and NEW clean burn coal technology is far more efficient and cleaner than anything gas powered today.
Besides, we have wind mills, damns, solar panels, wave generators, geo thermal etc.
Human innovation and history is full of people refusing to change, and coming up with reasons why "it cant be done", or "it's a waste of time", or.....
In early 1899-1900s, electric cars outsold gas cars, and a portion of the UPS delivery fleet in New York was electric. Gas won cause it was almost free. It's a shame it took us 100 years, and pollution catastrophes like LA, China, Northern Alberta etc for us to start "innovation" and invention back on track.
And I'm well aware of all the alternative sources of energy and hopefully our society keeps focusing on these industries or we're all gonna be screwed when oil runs out. Currently the energy by the alternate sources are a minority...and clean burning coal alternatives are still not good enough to make up for the losses in friction/energy losses throughout the transfer of energy in regards to electricity.
Banned
Not sure what you mean....Originally posted by Commanderwiggin
...and clean burning coal alternatives are still not good enough to make up for the losses in friction/energy losses throughout the transfer of energy in regards to electricity.
a modern 200hp electric motor is 95%+ efficient, compared to still under 30% for gas.
Converting a waterfall or wind, or ocean waves, or solar etc to electricity is very 'efficient' as nothing is "consumed", and nothing needs to be burned.
Converting coal to electric is a fairly efficient process. Old school technology is only about 50% efficient, newer plants approach 80% efficiency.
So, WORST case, coal to electric to electric power is still more efficient than a gasoline engine.
Not to mention stuff like Oils Sands where they need a half a barrel of fresh water for every barrel of oil extracted, or other chemicals pollution.
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Yes electric motors are extremely efficient. Yes wind/water/geothermal etc...is essentially free energy. Never stated otherwise. Look at what goes into producting these products however.Originally posted by Toma
Not sure what you mean....
a modern 200hp electric motor is 95%+ efficient, compared to still under 30% for gas.
Converting a waterfall or wind, or ocean waves, or solar etc to electricity is very 'efficient' as nothing is "consumed", and nothing needs to be burned.
Converting coal to electric is a fairly efficient process. Old school technology is only about 50% efficient, newer plants approach 80% efficiency.
So, WORST case, coal to electric to electric power is still more efficient than a gasoline engine.
Not to mention stuff like Oils Sands where they need a half a barrel of fresh water for every barrel of oil extracted, or other chemicals pollution.
For the exact efficiency and impact on the environment you need to go over every aspect. There are losses in every step. I advise you to look into this further. Another great loss to consider are the losses in the power lines among the rest. Environmental consideration to the batteries and energy required during the production...I'm not saying the technology is bad...its just not as efficient "YET".
Some day it will be more efficient...that is a ways away unfortunately. Think BIG PICTURE...production of wind mills...production of hydro projects...production of batteries on a large scale...just a part of it.
Energy In = Energy Out and there are extreme losses everywhere with both systems...a good thesis project for engineering majors fyi.
Only goal out of posting any of this is to open peoples eyes...electric isn't all its cut out to be "YET". Energy is neither created nor destroyed...conversion and its losses...good topics for thought.
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Half a barrel of fresh water is probably from older data. We had the VP of geoscience at Cenovus give a talk on their oil sand projects. They're using saline formation water and the only fresh water used in their operations are for drinking and showering. I think they equated it to 0.15 of a barrel of fresh water to each barrel of oil.
For companies that can't use saline water or are choosing not to for whatever reason, that steam is recycled due to efficiency and cost as reheating water is expensive.
Banned
It was 2008 Government data.....Originally posted by msommers
Half a barrel of fresh water is probably from older data. We had the VP of geoscience at Cenovus give a talk on their oil sand projects. They're using saline formation water and the only fresh water used in their operations are for drinking and showering. I think they equated it to 0.15 of a barrel of fresh water to each barrel of oil.
For companies that can't use saline water or are choosing not to for whatever reason, that steam is recycled due to efficiency and cost as reheating water is expensive.
It was more than a barrel in the 80's.
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those of you who are complaining how top gear lies about this and stages that, thats pretty much the reason why the show is so awesome
Top gear for the muda fucking win screw eco friendly cars that want to be fast
Originally posted by beyond_ban
Yo Kanye, ima let you finish, but 50 Cent had the best concert cancellation of all time.
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Cowboy Hunter
That's been posted on the first page.
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Sorry Toma, but that is a load of crap. No disrespect.Originally posted by Toma
Converting coal to electric is a fairly efficient process. Old school technology is only about 50% efficient, newer plants approach 80% efficiency.
So, WORST case, coal to electric to electric power is still more efficient than a gasoline engine.
Not to mention stuff like Oils Sands where they need a half a barrel of fresh water for every barrel of oil extracted, or other chemicals pollution.
As you know, coal is burned in furnaces to heat water. Boiling water creates steam that travels through pipes into a turbine. The turbine spins the generator and creates an electrical current.
Max efficiency is around 40%, but it is typically 30% to 35%. Examples are the plants in Alberta, Keephills, Sundance, Wabamun, Genesee, etc. We have a 100 year supply of coal in Alberta (34 billion tonnes), but coal -> electricity is no where near 80%.
Not sure where you got those numbers from. Are you sure you aren't confusing efficiency with capacity factor?
Edit: I meant to say, we have a 1000 year supply of coal here in Alberta
Last edited by Disoblige; 04-27-2011 at 02:38 AM.
Banned
^^^
Yup, you are right.... I had read up on coal a year or two ago when I was investing in some Chinese companies coal technolgy.
Re-checked it, and the current generation technology using coal gasification was only 45 to 47 percent efficient, they and the US dept of Energy project that it should be possible to reach 80% EVENTUALLY.
My bad....
Still.... though, fares well compared to gasoline.
But yeah, old school coal burning.... eeeks!
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Originally posted by Tik-Tok
Lol. You know what's going to happen now. Next season will have the Tesla driven until it actually is out of juice, with a big "there, we told you so" from Jeremy.
hahah
On a somewhat related side note, who saw the Season 16 Episode where they compared the uber Luxo sedans and Bentley at the last moment backed out and did not lend Top Gear a Mulsane so he used a UGO and called it a Mulsane for an houranother lawsuit perhaps
The Gimp
LOL can't sue when you dropped last minute. It was technically their fault and I'm sure if they've seen ONE episode of TG, you don't want to piss them off.Originally posted by 94boosted
On a somewhat related side note, who saw the Season 16 Episode where they compared the uber Luxo sedans and Bentley at the last moment backed out and did not lend Top Gear a Mulsane so he used a UGO and called it a Mulsane for an hour
Master Engine Builder
They didn't break...that was a way to avoid thrashing privatly owned cars....hmm another lawsiit ?Originally posted by M_Power
If this is about big oil, in 16x06 they also pushed two cars into the garage after they broke on the track. A Porsche 959 and a Ferrari F40. Not exactly eco-mobiles.
ninja trainers motto
always be able to kill your students
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Looks like they did it again!
Link
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............wait, so their saying money rules the world? noooooooooooooo, really??
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Says the guy who can't stop raving about a certain twin turbo Mustang. Perhaps drag racing should be about who finishes burning the least amount of fuel.Originally posted by Toma
Me.
They have their place, but in my mind they represent the caveman mentality.
And your stats on coal are BS - clean coal, now there is an oxymoron. Sounds like you fell for the "Big Coal" lobby. What sort of monkey speak is we "should" eventually get to 80% efficiency with coal?
Seeing as how your business is tuning cars it is surprising to me that you can't see the hypocrisy of hating the products of "Big Oil" while making a living by encouraging others to consume more.
By the way, how's the mileage on the Viper?
Last edited by soloracer; 08-09-2011 at 08:31 PM.
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Originally posted by soloracer
Says the guy who can't stop raving about a certain twin turbo Mustang. Perhaps drag racing should be about who finishes burning the least amount of fuel.
And your stats on coal are BS - clean coal, now there is an oxymoron. Sounds like you fell for the "Big Coal" lobby. What sort of monkey speak is we "should" eventually get to 80% efficiency with coal?
Seeing as how your business is tuning cars it is surprising to me that you can't see the hypocrisy of hating the products of "Big Oil" while making a living by encouraging others to consume more.
By the way, how's the mileage on the Viper?
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