TomcoPDR
(Editted: December, 2007)

Been about 1 year since I started sharing my line of automotive trade on Beyond now, it's been a learning experience for me as well as all of you learning about PDR. Over this past year while most experience are compliments, but being in the public's eye there'll always be criticism; mostly from other dent guys not wanting me to share our industry "secrets" :rolleyes: or nit picking at every word I miscommunicated, honest mistakes which I've stated they're more than welcome to rationally discuss on here.

Basically I've been accused of making myself look like I speak for the industry, make myself look like I'm the only one doing this (yea OK there), making it seem like that people are dumb and only read and listen to the crap I feed them instead of conducting their own PDR research :rolleyes: oh yea and lastly, by me contributing my career experience and the way I explain how I would professionally do my PDR repairs, they say I'm bad mouthing other companies. (i.e. "them")

So I'm going to overhaul everything I've written, not because I'm scared of the criticism, but because I'm willing to compromise to these false allegations of me "misguiding" and "scaring" the potential public of me sounding like I wrote the rules. In fact I'm telling everyone now within Paintless Dent Repair/ Removal, the industry is NOT regulated, anyone is welcome to say anything they want, reader/customer is responsible to determine information they're reading.

I do NOT speak on behave of the PDR industry, I don't make the rules, I don't follow "their" rules, this industry is NOT regulated and therefore it's a free for all... the reader should be allow to make their own conclusions on the information they receive

Tom Co.

TomcoPDR
Any other dent guy/companies reading this, by all means feel free to contribute something constructive in ways that'll help the public understand what we do. Different opinions and different ways of repairing, removing a body damage using Paintless Dent Repair method are welcome. Be prepare to back it up with proof (i.e. photos, detail information, etc...) don't come in here trying to bulldozer me with your "1-3 years" experience over me, discrediting certain points (yes, you can disagree with reasoning arguements please) but please don't try telling me I'm wrong in this non-regulated industry where I'll give your words the same credit as mine; as long as you can back it up. (should be vice-versa too)

Understanding the method

- Paintless Dent Repair / Paintless Dent Removal (no one can reason to use which term officially), PDR for short.

- Theory is to remove or take out automotive metallic panel dents without the use of body filler and repaint related materials; ideally results will end up with factory looking finish. (i.e. original paint)

- PDR process is basically just reversing how the damage was cause (hit from the exterior), and pushing/flexing/"hitting" (not a good term) from the backside in the exact and particular points within the dent; making it look factory original flat while not disturbing the integrity of original paint.

Those above can be expanded in details as to which how it's done, but let's just keep these in short reading pieces.

Tom Co.

TomcoPDR
General theroy how PDR works

In regards to describing Paintless Dent Repair/Removal, we're excluding collision or fender bender types of body damage (those should be anaylize on a bodyshop/autobody situation)

Below is a side view of a front fender just a simple door ding, dent, nothing deep or sharp just perfect round shape. You can see the memory or shape of the rest of the fender is still intact except for the dent itself; temporary pressure (versus in collision the entire panel is crushed, ripple, tons of bends and folds)


The next illustration of red dotted line represents where the dented metal WANTS to go back to.


The technican has to pinpoint WHERE to apply pressure underneath/behind the dent in order to help that stress back into the rest of the panel shape. The tricky part about QUALITY is that the "deepest" part of the dent requires more reverse force and "return distance" back to the red dotted line compared with the other colored dotted lines... (I'm just using 3x, 2x for example, in real life, might take anywhere from 10-50 tiny pushes)


If someone applies the wrong force or distance in the wrong spot, poor outcome will result... such as the dent still remains low (you can still see it) which can be reworked, but worst yet wrong pressure/ spots could equal to paint cracking.

Another view of the dent:








Of course there are more principles behind this basic explaination (such as a dent has 3-D characteristic, the diagram explained is only in 2-D)... There is way more skills and practice involved in doing PDR than there is knowing the "secrets" or "theories" how it's done.

So that is why I conclude that PDR is no secret or magic like the "old school" days, but rather we (techs) get paid for our SKILL labour of performing such task.

:guns:

Tom Co.

TomcoPDR
Another look of the above explantation, from a TOP VIEW prospective.




^^^ Think in terms of a geographic map (heights and depth levels of a mountain)... With the middle / centre being the deepest part of the dent.



Next article I'll involve some real photos of dented areas.

Tom Co.

TomcoPDR
Viewing a dent

Now that you know the basic principles of how a dent is repaired (reversing the tension from releasing the correct spots, the correct distance from flexing on the backside of the panel / dent)

Let's look at a dent in a with real photos, basically you take a flourscent bulb and shine it on the dented panel... you view the dent from where the light beam shine towards.

Move yourself (or your eyes) forward and backwards until the light beam runs straight down the dent and spliting it in halves.



The reflection "reverses" the lighting pattern, where there's light on the panel; on the dent it's dark... where the panel is dark; on the dent there's light. Technicans use the reflections of the light to pinpoint which area to reverse, and by how much (this is where skills come in, without getting into details)

Once the dent is "completed" <------ (this term is open interpretation by the misinformed consumer; again, our trade is NOT regulated during training, schooling, no exams, no failing grades) You should be able to run a straight line down the center where the dent was... (in this finish photo, yes, there's a little dimple left, but I was in a hurry to get an after pic for some reason; in case some "dent guy" is thinking about pointing that out)



And notice how the panel is still smooth and not lumpy and pokey, if the proper spots of the dent were NOT released properly, then you'll either: still see the dent (low), or a high bumpy nipple like reflection (high).

Tom Co.

TomcoPDR
Photo examples of what would happen if basic principles aren't followed

And to other dent guys, this is just a very basic run down, I can get into more details if you like. Stuff that I really don't see a reason any good quality PDR tech would get offended the public knowing about.

Below is a photo of a dent from TOP VIEW under a regular household bulb, you can see the divet of the dent.


Here are three photos of the dent "looking good" from top view under the same incandescent household bulb. Imagine after a PDR repair your vehicle was delivered to you parked under the sunlight (brighter than bulb) outside the dent shop.



READY FOR THIS???

Let's put a... oh-all-so-regular flourscent light, mounted on our "speical PDR" stand (all the stand does is rotate the light frame around)... it's not like people don't have flourscent lights in their garages; that's why I don't see why some dent guys/gals won't let you see their work under flourscent; it's not a magical light.







The light doesn't align STRAIGHT, some of the photos you can actually see the POKES and up and downs, instead of being smooth and even and straight... Now that's just ONE dent, imagine if that type of work was done with 100-200 dents on your vehicle? (typical hail damage dent count)...

Pretty much the above photos are of the same MESSED up dent with different angles. It's pretty self-explanatory that under TOP VIEW (under the sun, parked outside, under show room pod lights/ UNLESS YOU GET DARK REFLECTIONS) that the repair looks "peachy"... but then the sad truth is that it's a poor job. To be clear, that's only from MY OWN OPINION, the PDR industry is not regulated, so I am stating that there's nothing I can do to bad mouth any dent shops that produce results like this. (since this type of result is legit and "legal", as long as the unknowing customer pays :cry: )

Tom Co.

TomcoPDR
Very BASIC and general concept about the term "ACCESS"

So we know the theory about PDR and reversing the dented area back out from the underside; most PDR dents are fixed this way.

For the majority of dents, a skill trained technican and the wide range of PDR tools avaliable are enough to remove the dents without any discussion or consideration that PDR might not be the suited method on that particular damage.

Three main factors that might limit PDR method:

1. Size/shape (too big/ too creased)
2. Depth (too sharp, jagged, too dimpled)
3. Location (where the dent is on the vehicle, which body panel... need to gain "ACCESS" to that location with a PDR tool)

Because "size/shape" and "depth" are a fixed factor (the technican visually SEES or touch to eliminate or approve PDR method)... But gaining "ACCESS" on different model vehicles, different panels, different location of dent, it all varies that each and every single dent replies on it's own access method. (how you get to the back side of THAT dent, and every single one you come across)

Again, most dents using PDR can be removed based on skill training of the tech and the use of proper industry tools.

So when we (in PDR world) talk about "ACCESS" with a customer, we are talking about the ones which borderlines the question of the dent's location (how can we get to it?). These are the 2 common ways to improve the hopes of gaining "ACCESS" to a dent:

1. Remove interior trim panels, remove factory plugs, remove carpet liners, etc... (and of course reinstall what was taken out after PDR is completed)
2. Drill hole into vehicle's metal, in order to insert PDR tool to that questionable location in-hopes to gain "ACCESS" to the dent.

To elaborate and provide my good-intention details, read onto the next post. So all you other dent techs, either contribute constructively or piss off, don't hate because the "secret's out"

Tom Co.

TomcoPDR
ELABORATING FROM ABOVE, "ACCESS" to a dent

1. Removing interior trim panels (or anything that can be put back together)

- Costs more than drilling hole if you need to gain access to a dent (i.e. physical time and labour to remove + reinstall what's taken out)

- Added time to the dent removal process (however, mechanics, bodyshop techs, stereo speaker installers requires about the same time-effort to remove/reinstall as a PDR tech would)

- A cleaner finish, given PDR tech does high quality, once the interior trim is reinstalled there shouldn't be traces that the panel had been PDR'ed

- If the dent damage turns out to be non-PDR fixable, nothing gain but nothing loss, put panel back together and no traces of PDR attempts such as drilling hole

- If you remove panel yourself as a customer, certain PDR shops might only charge you for the dent work (they don't HAVE to, I do not control other dent shops nor a PDR regulator, this industry is a free for all) :(

- Even if you break a panel clip, that damage can be reverse such as purchasing a new panel retainer clip from the dealership (and not having a drilled hole with black plug)

- Because other automotive repair trades might remove interior panels too, this provide PDR techs more "how to" information... they can call their mechanic (fixing window, door-lock problems), bodyshop (repainting door skin), stereo installer (installing door speakers) for removal advice. (PDR techs are pretty much the only industry that would drill holes in the side of panels, no help from any other automotive source)

This is an actual dent removal I did for a Beyond customer... I wasn't skillful enough to take out the dent with my tool selection and knowledge (<---Sarcasm for other dent techs :rolleyes: ) So I had to discuss with the customer there's an "ACCESS" problem. He had a choice of either drilling a hole in the side of the door (photos self-explaintory) or the door panel needs to be removed, for "unskillful" ME to access this particular dent.



He choose to pay for panel removal/reinstall, very simple process for this vehicle. Just follow the screws, and retainer clips will pop out (if retainer clips break, we can purchase new ones, all $0.10-$1.00 each; oh no)



Once the interior trim panel is reinstalled, if the PDR work is close to factory, the results (hopefully) should be a factory looking body panel without any traces of work done to it.



This below needed "ACCESS" as well, not from a location stand point, but from a leverage (power with the tools)... however, it was only as simple as removing 3 screws on the headlamps, so I didn't charge anything extra (other dent shops are allow to do differently)



Need to get behind of the dent as well as leverage (to other dent guys, yea, I know you can use wheel well you noob, not enough power)



This dent on a quarter panel of a 2 door couple, either drill hole, or remove interior trim panel... I only charged the customer for the dents because he removed (and reinstalled) the inside panel himself (on this model, the rear seats needed to be loosen also)




Continues...

Tom Co.

TomcoPDR
Continue from above "ACCESS"

2. Drilling hole for "ACCESS"

- Quicker dent repair time compared to remove/reinstall interior trim panel

- Cheaper costs (no need to pay Re+Re labour)

- Easier for novice PDR techs to perform (instead of understanding and being careful with Re+Re trim panels)

- Still not a lot of public knowledge about hole drilling is from PDR, so if you're using PDR to resale vehicle for quick flip/curb, then higher profit margin

- Easier for original PDR company to redo initial work if customer is dissatisfy with original dent repair (don't have to remove and reinstall interior trim again)

Recently a PDR guy from British Columbia accused me of deceiving the public by me saying: "drilling holes in the side of a vehicle should be known to customers and should be the last resolution"

He claims I'm trying to scare the public, and bad mouthing the dent companies that drill holes (when a dent is in need of "ACCESS" situation)... let me put grandpa's mind to ease, I also have the proper equipment to drill holes, these are speciality PDR drill bits, and factory looking cover plugs.



However, I only drill holes (when a dent needs ACCESS attention), when the situation warrants; such as customer requesting cheaper or faster repair. And only if drilling holes does NOT interfere with customer (corporation) policies. Corporate customers such as rental agencies and auto auction who resale tens of thousands of vehicles to dealerships (in return to you individually) have specific polices stating body panel dent improvements using PDR method can NOT have any holes drilled.

Further more to BACK UP what I spit, this only took 3 seconds on www.google.com with key words "Paintless, drilling, drill holes, PDR, dent, no drill" it is a letter from a major auto manufacturer (says it in the letter), addressed to rental agencies who are volume leasing their brand of vehicles (in return rents them out to us), this page specifically outlines when these thousands of volume leases are returned, any autobody "dent" repairs using PDR can NOT have any holes drilled. I also have letters from other manufacturers and auto auction houses who host these volume vehicles, however, I do not want to break privacy issues. (again, the letter below was posted on GOOGLE by someone else)



In regards to me, an individual PDR tech, who NEVER specifically talks about any other competiting companies by names to the public but just "scaring the public about PDR drilling holes" :rolleyes: <-- Sarcasm alert... I'll let you the reader be the judge.



And lastly, irony really hates me, I bought this General Motors truck out East coast (I sent money to 1st owner without seeing vehicle; based on friend's connections)





Sorry to the other dent companies thinking WTF am I going off about??? You can all thank this grandpa dent guy from B.C., all I wanted to do is inform people that there're 2 ways to gain ACCESS when it's needed. And I was too blunt, just a general statement: "Hey, becareful there might be drilling holes involved". Then he starts going off how I sound like I'm a know-it-all, I'm bad mouthing dent techs who drill, etc... So sadly I have to open this can of worms; the automotive world already KNOWS only dent guys drill holes grandpa. "Plausible denaibility" of policies only works in the presidential level grandpa, when you're dealing with civilian and small businesses like us, that's called Ignorance and Stupidity (of not learning the rules)

Tom Co.

TomcoPDR
Understanding PRICING

As a blanket statement, because this industry is not regulated, nobody has created a standard pricing so far for every dent scenario. (some corporations try with general "win some, lose some" type of pricing; that's on a wholesale volume repair bases though)

For example: In the bodyshop world, you need to replace and repaint the front bumper of a 2005 Kia Sportage, the price for the new bumper is standard, there're bodyshop books that specific how long it takes to remove and reassemble a front bumper for that particular vehicle, and painting time/labour can be charged... and the only difference is the hourly rate of each shop.

In the PDR world, there is no such thing as standardizing the difficulty of the dents/damage. Every vehicle is different, on top of that every dent created will be different. And that's on top of each dent shop's skills, knowledge, tools, pricing structure.

Here are some factors that might determine your PDR estimate (these are NOT rules, so other dent shops doesn't have to follow these guidlines, I do NOT control other businesses):

1) Severity of the damage; the damage itself needs to be assessed and be sure it's fixable properly with PDR.

2) So let's say the damage is fixable with Paintless (PDR), there are three general factors that might determine pricing:
(a) Size of the dent
(b) Depth of the dent
(c) Location of the dent (relates to access)

3) Type of "dented" damage also determines cost:
(a) Door dents (i.e. from shopping carts, people opening doors on your door)
(b) Non-collision, minor dings (someone lended on the fender with their hand, basketball hitting the hood, horse playing in the garage at a party and smashing into left quarter panel of a 2005 Accord)
(c) Hail Damaged

4) Number of dents, (hail damage aside), with door dings... of course it'll cost more if a vehicle has 10 door dents for that door, compared to just the odd 1-2.

Based on those factors alone, that is why most dent shop/techs are not able to provide a definite quote over the phone/online; so it's not because we don't want to disclose our "rates", but the estimate in general is PER SPECIFIC DAMAGE.

This is why experience and pricing from individual customers will vary about their PAST Paintless Dent Repair visits at different dent shops. So therefore, I strongly suggest shopping around (if you got the time), and get quotes, and watch other dent shops/techs in action before you commit.

Tom Co.

TomcoPDR
Elaborate (photo proofs) of understanding PRICING

Since "QUALITY" is subjective in this business, it can't be blended into pricing. But just keep the golden rule in mind (get what you paid for)

The only best way to compare "rates" in PDR (Paintless) is to actually visit each and every dent shop / dent tech that you might be interested in. I can't tell you where to go because of conflict of interest... but either word of mouth, reference of past customers/work photos, or just watch a potential dent tech's current project on another customer's vehicle.

Even though you can generalize basic pricing structure, for example: "1-3 up-to loonie size dents will cost $x amount per body panel"

But once you get into technical repairs that nobody wants to fix within the industry, then pricing will differ dramatically. So I'm saying, using bodyshop world as example, you can generalize to repaint a front bumper of a common Ford, common GM, common Chrysler will be $200 bucks, HOWEVER, the cost to repair the side of a T-boned collision BMW will definitely be different.

I've read some past Beyond "paintless dent" threads, everyone saying these other shops offering FLAT RATE COST, regardless. :nut: (hopefully those customers just misinterpreted, or their dents falls within general easy-fix standards)

Here is MY interpretation and photo proof of why I feel every dent estimate should be treated differently, while yes, some of the easy/standard ones you can group into a general pricing structure.





The two oblvious severity of dent damage should be self-explaintory, I won't even argue with anyone thinking those 2 repairs should be the same price.

Not only is it not fair to the dent shop (technician), but it'll actually hurt YOU, the customer as well. If I charged the exact same "rates" between the two, the QUALITY on the bigger dent will suffer. Human nature, you keep on doing these "smaller ones" (for $1X amount ) and then instead of getting ($5X amount), you're still getting $1X for harder stuff??? :nut: And that's why I say shop around, cuz if you're paying a "flat rate" on these two totally different damages (as above), then either the shop is over charging on the small stuff, OR, undercharging the big stuff (and MOST LIKELY making it up in poor quality).

Tom Co.

TomcoPDR
December, 2007

Merry Christmas everyone, it's been 1 year sharing my automotive career experience here on Beyond.

Through out this year being in the public's eye I had to make a business decision. In the world of PDR (Paintless Dent Repair/ Removal), there are 2 directions we can take:

1. Fixing door dents, minor dings locally (for retail customers like yourself, used car lots, rental agencies)
2. Follow hail storms and fix hail damaged vehicles anywhere (we can't control the clouds, even though it hails in Alberta a lot more than rest of Canada)

But at this point in my life, within my career, I'm going to follow where the hail clouds takes me.

With that said, I'm playing a passive role in the PDR scene in Calgary. My services (not being cocky), are more or less for people who specifically knows me, or knows of the work I put out. (and to other dent guys, whatever you want that to mean, you can say I suck if you'd like)... So it's based on I'll do the best I can IF I can, WHEN I can, but no guarantees, no time schedules, etc...

I have re-written everything I've posted about PDR to the extend that HOPEFULLY you'll all find informational about the PDR trade, and nothing about ME hogging all the business, and don't go with the other PDR shops, etc... (please let me know if there're anything remotely close to it)

So in fact, with me giving out all this information, this will help out my competitors (i.e. now you know what PDR is about, certain body damages can be improved with PDR)... Even if I'm not avaliable, I'm still more than happy to answer any questions you might have about PDR (without talking about competitors, I don't do that with public)

Happy Holidays, and thanks again for everyone's strong continuous support and respect for my line of automotive skill trade.

Hailman :D

Graham_A_M
Tom, you are my hero.:thumbsup:

TomcoPDR
More information with my version of evidences about drilling hole for access

I still can't let go of a certain issue, basically the whole thing I come on a car forum talking about our trade with good intentions (yes, I know there will be haters/jealous competitors)... This old PDR dude got into the trade 4-5 years before me (I would had been like 10 or 12 freakin' years old), we're not even in the same city nor province, he claims I'm wrong blah blah on scaring people by telling the whole: "PDR drill holes" (I forgot to add in "SOMETIMES, RARELY", unless restricted by customers or dealer/insurance policy)

I got hosed for the fact that he's just scared the times are changing in this industry, tools are getting more advanced (old days, they made their old tools from scrap metal), knowledge are broader, truely skilled technicians respect each other and willing to share techiques. (old days everybody kept quiet, you butter your customers, I'll butter mine, lots of work to run your own mouth, "quality" has no definition... NOWADAYS however; tons of info through internet searches, auto industry awareness of good/bad PDR already, not enough gravy work to be going around; therefore I would assume self-claimed good quality techs should love to publicly share info as to WHY we're getting paid for our SKILLS, not a marketing false impression of "years surviving in business", "come to us, we're the best", "we pay our yearly dues in better company bureau" )

Here're more evidence of the whole quality techs shouldn't worry of anyone broadcasting a no drilling attitude. (again, in some cases, at the request of private vehicle owners, I myself would love to drill)

This is a newer 2007 Lincoln MKZ with hail damage (probably $50,000 -$70,000 when new)



- For one, this is a pretty high end vehicle (IMO)
- Two, this is an insurance hail damage claim... the "customer" paying us is actually the insurance company; which this company specifically knows of PDR and states NO DRILLING WHATSOEVER. (while estimating, if the dent company isn't comfident enough to fix certain dents without drilling as per customer/business policy, then don't fix the vehicle; tell people you can't do it and have repair done through conventional bodyshop method)
- Three, (this other old PDR guy says I'm stupid, sometimes you have to drill to save time, if you remove interior panels that they break)

Well, not sure about him, if I break a $0.50 retainer clip, I'll pay for it, panels as well... This vehicle was stripped from headliner, to sunroof, to trunk being removed, to inner quarter panel carpets, in order to get to the back of the dents; that's what we're paid and charged to do. (I can't use the word "properly" cuz the drillers can say drilling is proper too, PDR isn't regulated)


Just a question to ponder about, what are the drilling PDR guys going to do with top rail pillars with side curtain airbags??? Drill through the airbags dude??? (FYI: I myself don't believe in drilling anything considered structural like pillars, just COSMETIC door skins, I'd rather pass on the job)



In the old days, without newly invented tools, or advance techniques, these older generations will say: "Oh, I'm the best at this, if I can't get this no other companies can, I did everything else (which are EASY), just not those dents" :rolleyes:

TomcoPDR
Hail damage Repair using conventional bodyshop method

For anyone reading this far into my articles, you've all got a sense that Paintless Dent Repair/Removal method is another ideal solution to solve minor door dings, dents and hail damage without the result of repainting any body panels.

In certain cases however, due to different reasons, hail damage (or minor dings or fender bender dents) will still require the scope of conventional autobody repair method.

Anyhow, this is a hail damaged vehicle 2002-2004 Mazda Protege. Again, many reasons get factored into whether or not to use conventional bodyshop or Paintless Removal... in this case the vehicle is older, roof had extreme deep scratches and looked like someone stepped on roof, deep and numberous door dings (normally not covered for repair for hail damage insurance claims)... When the insurance adjustor looked at this vehicle, along with bodyshop manager, along with on site Paintless Dent Removal company (i.e. me); it was 100% mutually agreed that bodyshop repaint repair would be the best suited case for this particular vehicle.

The bodyman started the process before I realize I could contribute an article on Beyond, otherwise I'd have more before photos.

So he's preparing to "chop the roof" (replace the roof skin), as well, he's already put bodyfiller on the side of the vehicle to level out the hail dents as well as deep door bang-dents. New roof skin ready and inspected (for no shipping damage); right photo.


Roof gets cut open.


New roof skin welded on.


Trunk lid hail damage getting "mudded" (I use that term)... but it's just putting body filler over the hail dents.


After bodywork is completed (reasonablely smooth), the next "stage" is to move it towards another department within the shop, another technician. Prepping. (technican's role = prepper). Where it's a final stage before paint goes on, so the prepper as to make sure the bodylines (little pits or waves) in the bodywork from the bodyman is reasonable. If it's ok then prepper puts primer and sands vehicle and goes to painting. If he spots poor bodywork (i.e. panel misalign, obvious bumps or dents) then vehicle goes back to bodyman :rofl:


Freshly painted from booth, once paint is dried, vehicle goes back to bodyman for handles, mouldings, headlamps, windshield to be reinstalled... Wash for delivery (right photo)


Vehicle awaits customer pickup. :clap:



From start to finish, this vehicle took 16 days to be complete, using 3-4 technicians (bodyman, prepper, painter, detail cleanup). But remember, they were squeezing the vehicle in between jobs, and also waiting for one another during stages.

Not all hail damaged vehicles using conventional bodyshop repair requires the roof re-skined by the way (don't want bodyshop people over me on this one) Sometimes it's just a matter of bodyfiller and sand paper.




Anyways, mostly a reminder to people in the auto industry, I'm not really here to "steal your business"... I think these articles are NEUTRAL in contents. But for the sake of preventing you from stabbing my back and saying shit about me on the streets, if you feel I've misrepresented something, PLEASE FEEL FREE to comment rationally with evidence and help clear things up for the public. And I know these photos might be "BORINGGGG/ *YAWN*" to US (bodyshop or Paintless), but don't forget most people don't have knowledge or experience of what's involved in our industry... Seeing that I don't see any of you using your free time writting this stuff.

Tom Co.

Hit Em Up
i'd trust him with my car :thumbsup:

TomcoPDR

^^^ Just to clear up, I did NOT do the autobody roof repair job above your post.

The autobody post (red Mazda Protege) was just to demonstrate what other repair method (bodyshop) entails to.

With me and my industry (PDR, Paintless), we just remove the interior trim headliner, and "push the dents out from backside" (which there are certain limitations of what we can do; hence the bodyshop post of replacing the roof if it's too scratched, wavy, stepped on)

FiveFreshFish
Awesome job on the engine lid and front fender on my car today. Thanks!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

TomcoPDR
More discussion about "ACCESS" in the PDR world.

Just a reminder to everyone (public and industry), our trade is not regulated, therefore, there are no merits from what each competing PDR company has to claim. (yes, this includes against myself, these are only my opinions in how I would operate in this trade)

So within our industry, there're huge debates about DRILLING HOLES in vehicles for access when performing PDR.

Normally, with the amount of new age tools and techniques, not all dents require an access concern and not all dents require "drilling"... Bascially to perform PDR, we have to gain access to the backside of the damage, right... so there are situations where the location of the dent doesn't allow regular tools or techniques to gain access to the backside. (i.e. normally access isn't a concern since for example, we can have tools slide down window openings, or in behind fender wheel wells, etc...)

But there are 2 groups of "dent guys"... there are really old school senile guys whom aren't willing to change and they're sworn drilling holes are the only way to get to a dent (when needed), and the people these guys train thereafter.

Then there are industry revolution that requires a higher standard from our trade... There are auto-manufacturers with their own PDR techs in the factory (dents created during production), they actually have policies stating no drilling in PDR, espeically in hail damaged dent removals using PDR.

This trend of not drilling holes using PDR extends to insurance industry as well (with hail damaged claims repaired using PDR)... our industry is no secret to anyone, anymore. This is why there's transparency in the way we do things. (do a search on google, youtube, etc... potential customers have way more info about our trade than 10-15 years ago)

So what's the latter?

Well, if the customer requires no drilling during PDR (private owners, insurance, manufacturer) and the tech/shop can't fullfil that, why not direct the repair to traditional bodyshop?

Anything short of that, things are estimated to be stripped down and properly reinstalled. These photos are hail damaged brand new vehicles (less than 20km), dents extend to lower rocker panels, doors were professionally removed and reinstalled by manufacturer dealership autobody technicians (some dent guys who drill make excuses saying plastic panels can break, clips can break, etc... well, maybe they just don't know how to do it, or are they saying mechanics and bodyman aren't skillful enough neither? Or are they saying they won't replace anything they break?)

Anyways, this is my proof that there are ways (costs money and labour), that in PDR, you don't always have to believe that drilling is the only way.



Also to comfort the dent guys who have to drill (customer's request, person belief, etc...) I do own $500-$600 worth of proper metal drill bits as well if the customer requires (wholesale junkers, beaters), I (MYSELF) usually try talking them out of it, or rather send them to a bodyshop... That's just me though.

TomcoPDR
This article dedicated to preparation work, ACCESSING a dent and once again the whole imagine of "drilling holes" within PDR.

This is a hail damaged 2006 Volkswagan Jetta, the left side has sever amounts of hail dents. Not sure if this video will show well, just remember some dents just don't turn out on video/camera.


For those following these articles, this is just repeating the un-necessity of hole drilling in PDR.

For those just tuning in, there's a myth in our industry that PDR techs ALWAYS or "when necessary" drill holes in your vehicles.

This is NOT true, when a body damage looks to be a good PDR candidate, drilling is at no point whatsoever neccessary; the only collateral would be more preparation work of removing parts or accessories (which translates to labour hours/cost, that's all)... Which translates to willingness of customer (dealership, insurance companies, private consumers) and skill or ability of the tech in accomplishing this.

As a tech, I have made a stand on this. I'm claiming it takes a lot of skills and knowledge from the tech to NOT drill (when accessing behind a dent is an issue)... Some PDR companies/techs do not like me providing this type of information to the public (well, it's not like people can't google or youtube this topic)... and again, for their information, I also have tools to drill holes (really expensive titanium drill bits)

However, these articles are about me :D as a tech :D. So here's my evidence and proof that hole drilling is just a lame lazy excuse to hack out a PDR job. :thumbsdow

Like I said, this is a hail damaged vehicle, privately owned, but insurance is paying me for removing the dents. (and insurance companies do know about Paintless Dent Removal, and many specifically states no hole drilling if hail damage is done using PDR)

Here the door skins are removed, because of the volume of dents, the results from working on the damage vertically (upright position) would not turn out nice, on top of that some location of dents would be inaccessible (usually techs work with tools through the rolled down window gap, but some dents are way too low; I mean if we were to wanting to properly remove all dents that the insurance company paid for)

Therefore, I removed both left door skins, the door skin is then placed horizontally on a "hood stand", this way, the tech has "access" to all location of the dent, all 360 degrees.

On top of this, please notice all the mechanical gadgets in the door jamb area where a PDR hole would had been drilled. I myself would not want to take a chance of a drill bit penetrating that area. (it's not like a "veteran dent guy" have X-ray vision to see what's not behind a door jamb to avoid damaging vital components, come on)

TomcoPDR
This article demostrates a hybrid automotive-body repair combination using PDR (Paintless Dent Removal) and conventional bodyshop method.

This is a severely hail damaged vehicle. In the video, notice the reflection of the dents on the vehicle roof panel using the straight lines of the building roof trusses.

Now ideally, either a PDR tech would completely remove all hail dents perfectly and it'd be done. Or a bodyshop would bodyfiller and repaint, and/or replace roof panel then repaint.

In this case, the bodyshop I was working "in partnership with" used my PDR LABOUR, in replacement of a journey-man bodymen to push out the dents before repainting. There are several reasons this "hybrid" of body repair would happen in auto hail damage removal:

- Customer/owner of vehicle are familiar with bodywork industry, and requests to have minimal or no body filler to be used whatsoever. (and yes, they will stop by the shop everyday to watch the repair progress :rofl: )... In some hail prone areas, if a consumer (hopefully) had good past PDR experience, they would specifically ask for good PDR to be done on their repeat hail damage situation.

- Based on the above, realisticly, no journeymen would "hammer out" every single dent from the backside of what a PDR tech are used to. (not really in their job training/ not worth their time)... And you can't heat torch this particular severe hail, unlike 1-5 single dents, journeyman would heat around the dent to bring it up before filler, yes)

- This is also why I'm able to use this damage as a sample, no bodymen would even want to bodyfiller and sand this roof, this roof also has a couple raised ribs, not complete flat. (hence, that's exactly why I got asked to use PDR method to push the dents out; keeping in mind PDR can not make THIS damage acceptable perfect)... If this was lighter hail damage, without a PDR tech, yes, bodyshop would use bodyfiller, OR sometimes you can just sand down the panel and by the time you apply primer and new paint that'll fill in the light hail dimples (some cases)...

- Parts shortage. In terms of roof panels, pretty much not many cases in the bodyshop world would a vehicle normally require roof replacements (well, rollovers)... therefore, local parts supply inventory for roofs become scarce. Then add in whenever hail damages an entire town/city, every bodyshop would try to obtain the same supply of roof panels for the fixed amount of hail damaged roofs. (when sereve enough requiring replacement)

- Furthermore parts replacement could incur "wait time" (i.e. not like roof panels are commonly stocked item)

So in this example, many of the above factors made this hybrid possible. (owner didn't want his roof fillered, bodyshop owner tried ordering new roof but couple weeks wait, then the bodymen refuses to filler-then-sand-repeat on damage like this)

So what happens is that a PDR tech (me), pushes out all the dents, however, perfect finish is not required... Then, the bodyman would sand down the imperfection after PDR pushes, add light filler IF required (sometimes all it needs is sanding). Then that panel can be primered and repainted.

So I got paid what the bodyman would, except there's no way he/she would "hammer out" every dent, nor would he/she want to "heat torch around" every single dent. (plus the panel would warp)

Notice too in the video, on the "pushed out" area, you can spot imperfection or "wavy" against the reflection of the straight line. But consider that PDR wasn't meant to make this type of damage perfect. (term "perfect" means no general public, no PDR professionals can spot vehicle was PDR worked on)... Then eventually this vehicle went for a complete paint job, as the sides were serevely hail damaged, and hood panel replaced, etc... Notice all glass and interior panels striped (for bodyshop respray)





Well, hope that made sense and informative.

Tom Co.

Jeremiah
I'm Skinny Bop Bop Bop, she just blows me awayyyyyyyy