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Question for the experienced sparkies (electricians) - Click HERE for Original Thread

barmanjay
First of all,.. Are there any experienced and knowledgeable electricians on beyond?

Bunch of questions regarding moving a meter box and wire guage.

Additional notes:
- Inner city property with overhead power
- 100 yr old home with meter in the house.
Current meter is 100a, although main throw is 30a (looks to be 100 yrs old, located before the meter - yes it would be super easy to steal power)
Oldish panel after meter - 100a


So here is my situation, I have an old meter in my kitchen.

I've set up the new meter base (100a) on the outside of the house.
Conduit up the side right to where the line feeds into the original wires.

Now, I've already run 3ga wire up the conduit (2xblack and 1xwhite).

After I run the wires I took a look at the meter base and there is only 1 mounting spot for the black.
I've checked out all meter bases available at the local home depot (thinking i picked up the wrong one) and they are all the same.

For 100a service, is only 1 black wire required from the line in?

How does enmax attach 2x3ga blacks in one spot that looks just big enough for 1x3ga wire.

Or.... Did I go over kill and 6ga wire should be run down the conduit from the line in to the base?

Am I off my rocker thinking there should be 2xblacks and 1xwhite coming in?

Lastly, am I in over my head? (non-trades people need not answer)




Yes, I did bury a grounding plate 2' in the ground with 3ga ground wire running to the base.
Zero102
Sounds like you bought a single phase meter base to me :dunno:
barmanjay
Ok, I just re-read all the literature I've saved.

Seems I am ok with the 3x 3ga wire sizes and the meter box seems right.

My conventional brain of how the wires should be hooked up is wrong.
(thinking black on one side, white on the other)

The meter base does infact have 3 places to hook up the wires and a separate ground.

The blacks go on the outside connectors and the white goes in the middle.

Here is a pic (not of my actual meter base) of an example.

click for larger version
» Click image for larger version


I think I just needed to clear my mind a bit.
Zero102
Yeah sounds like you've got it nailed down now. Basically the neutral (which is also earthed very nearby) passes straight through and both lines are interrupted until the meter is fitted, so from left to right, line, neutral, line.

AFAIK #3 wire is fine for 100A service use even in conduit, and everything you are connecting it to should be sized for much bigger so you should have no problems with it fitting in terminals and such.

From the initial description it sounded like you had a single phase meter base, I was wondering just where the hell you found one of those in a retail store :nut:
barmanjay
I thought I had a single phase too.

Needed to let my head clear before looking at the meter again and the literature.

My mind was filled with the basic visual of an outlet.


Although, the meter that is currently in my kitchen i believe is a single phase.

Looks to be like an 8 ga line on it aswell. Go figure?

1 Blk + 1 wht in
1 Blk + 1 wht out



Time to finish up the rest of my electrical then hope for the city 'approval'.
colinderksen
you have single phase power. 2 hot leads and one ground lead. 120/240. Do you have a permit?
Zero102
Originally posted by colinderksen
you have single phase power. 2 hot leads and one ground lead. 120/240. Do you have a permit?



:facepalm:

Single phase is 1 hot + 1 grounded (or neutral if you prefer), he does not have single phase.

Enmax wouldn't be doing the service switchover if he didn't have a permit. Why did you even post?...

barmanjay
Originally posted by Zero102


:facepalm:

Single phase is 1 hot + 1 grounded (or neutral if you prefer), he does not have single phase.

Enmax wouldn't be doing the service switchover if he didn't have a permit. Why did you even post?...




Yup

Enmax won't even touch it until there is a green sticker from the city,.. Still lots more work for me to do on other places before I can do that.

Crazyjoker77
Originally posted by Zero102


:facepalm:

Single phase is 1 hot + 1 grounded (or neutral if you prefer), he does not have single phase.

Enmax wouldn't be doing the service switchover if he didn't have a permit. Why did you even post?...



He certainly does have single phase. Its a edison 3 wire circuit 120/240. 3 phase would be 120/208 (all 3 phase derivatives have to be 1.73 higher eg 277/480 347/600) as well 3 phase services have to have 3 hots and may contain a neutral (it wont if its fed from a delta/delta or wye/delta transformer)

Edison 3 wires circuits are 2 sine waves 180degrees apart where 3 phase is always 3 waves 120 degrees apart.

Zero102
Originally posted by Crazyjoker77


He certainly does have single phase. Its a edison 3 wire circuit 120/240. 3 phase would be 120/208 (all 3 phase derivatives have to be 1.73 higher eg 277/480 347/600) as well 3 phase services have to have 3 hots and may contain a neutral (it wont if its fed from a delta/delta or wye/delta transformer)

Edison 3 wires circuits are 2 sine waves 180degrees apart where 3 phase is always 3 waves 120 degrees apart.



I never said he has 3 phase power.

In a typical household supply there are 2 ungrounded conductors that are 180* out of phase. When one is +168V the other is -168V relative to ground. That is 2 phases not one. Lots of people call this single phase power but really it isn't. Single phase would be all ungrounded conductors rising and falling in time. If he had single phase 120/240 then one would 168V while the other was 376V relative to ground, and that is not what we have.

Crazyjoker77
Originally posted by Zero102


I never said he has 3 phase power.

In a typical household supply there are 2 ungrounded conductors that are 180* out of phase. When one is +168V the other is -168V relative to ground. That is 2 phases not one. Lots of people call this single phase power but really it isn't. Single phase would be all ungrounded conductors rising and falling in time. If he had single phase 120/240 then one would 168V while the other was 376V relative to ground, and that is not what we have.



again you are wrong it is still considered single phase. both sine waves DO NOT have to rise together but they both must cross 0 at the same time. Polarity are different between them but they are IN phase with each other.



where as 3phase there is actually a phase difference.



and a quote from basic 3 phase principles in 3rd year module to better word it.

"You may think think there are two 120v phases in a single-phase service, however there are not. the voltage of L1 to neutral is the voltage of only half of one winding and the voltage of neutral to L2 is the voltage of the other half of that single winding. The rise and fall of the sine wave values of voltage from L1 to Neutral occur at the same time as as the rise and fall of sine wave values of voltage from L2 to neutral. Their peak values can be different , but they are in phase (or in time)with each other. A two pole breaker can be connected to the two live conductors from that single transformer winding, but it is still a single phase, not a two phase, circuit.

This is a two phase waveform.


now please go hand in your ticket if you even have one.

Zero102
Wow, that got personal real fast :thumbsup:

The OP's issue has been solved and this thread is not only derailed but deteriorating quickly.
:closed:
m10-power
Originally posted by Zero102


:facepalm:

Single phase is 1 hot + 1 grounded (or neutral if you prefer), he does not have single phase.

Enmax wouldn't be doing the service switchover if he didn't have a permit. Why did you even post?...




Originally posted by Zero102
Wow, that got personal real fast :thumbsup:

The OP's issue has been solved and this thread is not only derailed but deteriorating quickly.
:closed:



Wow you certainly shouldnt be giving electrical wiring advice. Let me guess still in school?

Cos
Originally posted by Zero102
Sounds like you bought a single phase meter base to me :dunno:



Originally posted by Zero102


:facepalm:

Single phase is 1 hot + 1 grounded (or neutral if you prefer), he does not have single phase.

Enmax wouldn't be doing the service switchover if he didn't have a permit. Why did you even post?...



Originally posted by Zero102


I never said he has 3 phase power.

In a typical household supply there are 2 ungrounded conductors that are 180* out of phase. When one is +168V the other is -168V relative to ground. That is 2 phases not one. Lots of people call this single phase power but really it isn't. Single phase would be all ungrounded conductors rising and falling in time. If he had single phase 120/240 then one would 168V while the other was 376V relative to ground, and that is not what we have.



Lol really? Why did YOU even post? I really really doubt you are an electrician or work for ANY form of electrical utility with that nugget of knowledge. Colin works at the same distribution utility I work at. No it isn't two phase. Two phase is not constructed anymore and barely exists at that rate and even that only refers to the primary line. How would we terminate 2 phase? You would have either 2 runs of single phase or a really fucked up 3 phase circuit with no use to anyone. There is still some in the rurals for the primary which is A,B - B,C - A,C on the pole. Pretty much a three phase structure without the central conductor. It was done back in the day for a large amount of single phase services so you dont want to overload one phase but you have no need for the third wire. It saves the third amount of wire run costs. Most has been upgraded now.



Jay, you have 1Ph 120/240. 3Ph is 120/208 and you would have quad run. I see triplex. The reason they need the permit to re-energize is because it is the wire owners responsibility to ensure that the circuit we are connecting is safe. Hence the need for a permit. Every utility does it this way. We have TONS of failed connection orders because the permit isn't in the base. Make sure that you have a permit before you call because if you get a lineman out there with your meter, they dont see the permit, they turn around and leave and cancel the order. Also not sure in the City but in our service territory the only people who can take out permits are Master Electricians.


Edit: wow lots of posts in here. Dont leave your tabs open.



Originally posted by colinderksen
you have single phase power. 2 hot leads and one ground lead. 120/240. Do you have a permit?



Lol I like the way you typed it. Been to enough failed IC orders lately? haha

HuMz
120/240 is definatley single phase still and barman your meter looks good. It is very easy to over think electrical.
C_Dave45
Wow. And I thought MY trade was complicated! All I have to worry about is "shiny side up". :thumbsup:
Cos
Originally posted by C_Dave45
Wow. And I thought MY trade was complicated! All I have to worry about is "shiny side up". :thumbsup:



I don't believe that for a second otherwise you wouldn't be one of the few who would do it properly. ;)

Cos
Originally posted by barmanjay


Lastly, am I in over my head? (non-trades people need not answer)



Two other things I thought of. Reading this I am starting to assume you dont have an electrician. I am 90% sure you need an electrician but call Enmax Monday morning and check because Enmax is also the City I know they collaborate on more of this stuff than we do.

Second thing to note. I am not sure how this works on facility upgrades since you wont be going for a new Site ID but the code as of 5/6 years ago was to run CAT5/6 and when Enmax gets their AMI project going all the self read meters will be tied into that. You may have to also run a CAT 5/6 out there.

barmanjay
Well

This is interesting stuff, trying to understand the waves is surely confusing.



Here is a question then.

The existing meter is supplied with only 2 wires. The overhead lines: the third wire is taped off.

Is this still considered single phase? What would the wave look like?


Can't reverse the wires otherwise I blow the main fuse (screw in fuse).


Cos:

Im assuming I can do this under a homeowners permit, but this is the main and I definitely want an electrician to come and check it now.

As competent as I am with being handy and skillful, my knowledge is limited to reading material and no practical experience with power mains/meters.

Roughing in household wires, I feel I can do those blindfolded.
Cos
Originally posted by barmanjay
Well

This is interesting stuff, trying to understand the waves is surely confusing.



Here is a question then.

The existing meter is supplied with only 2 wires. The overhead lines: the third wire is taped off.

Is this still considered single phase? What would the wave look like?


Can't reverse the wires otherwise I blow the main fuse (screw in fuse).



What colour is the taped off wire? Two thoughts come to mind. 1.) The meter base you had didnt have room for the neutral so they taped it off (fire hazard) or 2.) you were only ever fed with 120 but leaving a hot leg taped off with 120 energized is also a fire hazard. Either way good thing you are replacing it. My GUESS is that you dont have a neutral wire and your panel is grounded. I have seen worse though so who knows.

Here is a bit of info for you:

Single phase 120 (normal recepticals and light switches):
click for larger version
» Click image for larger version

Single Phase 240 (stove, dryer, etc)

click for larger version
» Click image for larger version

Lets assume the same step down for 3 phase:

120 three phase is the same as 120 single phase the only difference is between the 240 and the now 208:

click for larger version
» Click image for larger version

Here is what the wiring inside your house would be doing (really basic)




Because the incoming line is of the SAME phase (hence why it is called Single Phase) you get an additive response from the wires. +120 and -120. Now when the plugs cycles your stuff plugged into the 120 doesn't give two shits if it is + or - as it is only instantaneously and will return to positive soon enough, but one plug may be + when the other plug is going - then they would switch very quickly. When you add two of the same phase together that is why you get 240 since while one is +120 the other is on the way down to -120.

Now with three phase it is wired very similar but with 4 wires now (hence why it is called Quadplex). Between the one line and ground/neutral it is the same voltage because the waveform looks the exact same. But now when you have the two wires they are not rising and falling at the same time. You still add them together the same as you would with 120/240 but because of the 90 degree offset (think in milliseconds of time) you don't get 120+120 = 240. You actually get 120+120 = 208.

Originally posted by barmanjay
Cos:

Im assuming I can do this under a homeowners permit, but this is the main and I definitely want an electrician to come and check it now.

As competent as I am with being handy and skillful, my knowledge is limited to reading material and no practical experience with power mains/meters.

Roughing in household wires, I feel I can do those blindfolded.



Chat to the City monday morning. Not sure what Enmax will allow but I know we wont allow you to.

barmanjay
On the overhead coming into the house,..

It's one black taped off.

One black and neutral going in.

When we first moved in, there was no ground,.. I quickly added one, #6 to the water main.

And just recently added a grounding plate with #3, buried 2 feet under my addition.

I'm no dummy, but I'll be first to admit I don't know it all and am not afraid to ask for help.

On that note, are there any electricians on here willing to come over and check out my home?
barmanjay
All enmax requires is a green inspection sticker, spoke with them a couple times prior to starting this.
Cos
Originally posted by barmanjay
On the overhead coming into the house,..

It's one black taped off.

One black and neutral going in.

When we first moved in, there was no ground,.. I quickly added one, #6 to the water main.

And just recently added a grounding plate with #3, buried 2 feet under my addition.

I'm no dummy, but I'll be first to admit I don't know it all and am not afraid to ask for help.

On that note, are there any electricians on here willing to come over and check out my home?




Originally posted by barmanjay
All enmax requires is a green inspection sticker, spoke with them a couple times prior to starting this.



So I assume you only had 120V appliances then? I doubt the taped off wire was HOT but they wouldnt spend the time to unwrap the second leg of the triplex.

You could very well be right about Enmax. I don't want to make you second guess yourself but I dont want to tell you everything will be OK then you make a rush/panic post trying to find an electrician who can pull you a permit. As I mention, being the city owned utility with access to the permit and buildings guys means they have a bit different of a process than we do.

Good luck. It sounds like you are doing thinks as best and properly as you can.

barmanjay
Thx for your input cos

I'm sure this will all work out in the end.

Just want to make sure I'm doing it right.


All my appliances are 120v

Gas dryer, gas stove.

Love gas!
black_shadow_18
do make sure you check with the city if they will issue a permit or inspect a service that a homeowner does. On their website it says it HAS to be a certified master electrician / contractor to modify / install a service entrance... just a heads up that you might have to hire someone to take over that "job" so you can get it legal...
barmanjay
Thx!

I'll be looking for an electrician.

If anyone knows a good one that can help me at this stage in the "job"

Please let me know.
colinderksen
Originally posted by Zero102


:facepalm:

Single phase is 1 hot + 1 grounded (or neutral if you prefer), he does not have single phase.



I did drink a lot of beer during my apprenticeship, but not enough to fuck up single phase. Now tell us how to wire up a crowfoot, just to make me smile.

Originally posted by Cos
Lol I like the way you typed it. Been to enough failed IC orders lately? haha



Not enough, "Fail to Retailer" makes me feel powerful. ha

Cos
Originally posted by colinderksen


how to wire up a crowfoot, just to make me smile.



Fuck now THAT made me laugh. Hell man I'm not even sure I can do it and I have to order the stuff. Haha

colinderksen
It gets me laid.

Cos
Originally posted by colinderksen
It gets me laid.



Yeah first time I quoted a Crowfoot the guy wanted a 120/240 or a 120/208. Went to ask the Senior Designer and he just :rofl: and said he can have whatever he wanted. I didnt believe him. Then showed me the actual wiring diagram out of the book and I just walked away from him mid-sentence. Hahah




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