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veyron
03-24-2013, 08:35 AM
Hi everyone,

I am a first year engineering student, and am facing a big dilemma in choosing my program. :dunno:

I like Software Engineering the most, but based on my research, its pay is very very low (page 30, http://www.apegga.org/pdf/SalarySurvey/VPS2012.pdf). And its the same across Canada. Also heard it takes more than 5 years to build a good portfolio which can open better opportunities.

While I am very good with programming, and enjoy it, I think its too much of a risk. It also sucks that most companies don't care whether I have a computer programming degree or engineering degree.

Now onto Chemical Engineering. Well Alberta has a lot of demands for them. Pay is good, and can earn a fortune if I work hard. Also I enjoyed Engg 201, which is the foundation of chemical engineering.

Lastly Civil Engineering . It has a good pay and is very very stable. Also I would like to work around the globe if possible and big civil companies like Stantecs are everywhere.
I could also work for the federal or provincial government. While unlike software, I don't like studying about civil engineering in my free time, I enjoy it when I am studying it (if that makes much a sense).

I would highly appreciate if I could get your guys input. It doesn't have to be an engineer, any one from any walk of life is more than welcome to give their input. Thanks!

PS: I like Electrical Engineering as well, but the pay is high varied and job isn't very stable most of the time.

PPS: Software engineering starts at ~ $55,000 and stays there for around 4 years, while other engineering starts a bit higher and can go over $80,000 in next 4 years.

kaput
03-24-2013, 08:40 AM
.

veyron
03-24-2013, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by kaput
You can do equally well in any engineering field. Choose what you want to do and the money will come. Choosing a field based on the money will probably set you up to fail later in life.

Thank you for the reply. Yeah I know we should choose what we enjoy, and yes I do enjoy programming and designing softwares a lot. However the pay difference is way to big to not consider (difference of $30,000 a year!!). Now I wouldn't mind it if I was earning 6 figures a year, but the difference between $50k and $80k is huge.

Also while I don't enjoy civil and chemical as much as software and electrical, I still enjoy it and it comes naturally to me.

kaput
03-24-2013, 09:07 AM
.

Uncle Flappy
03-24-2013, 09:12 AM
Sounds to me like you know which 2 interest you, but are concerned that you are "throwing away your choice" since generally software and electrical are picked last.

Isaiah
03-24-2013, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by veyron
. . . the difference between $50k and $80k is huge . . .
It may seem so now, when you're in your late teens or early twenties, but believe me down the stretch that will mean nothing. Excelling in any engineering field will get you into the 6 figure range by the time you're 30 so choosing the expertise you'll be practicing for the rest of your career based on the income range of your first 3-4 years out of school is unwise.

My 25 year old civil engineer friend, currently with Suncor, made $100,000+ last year including his bonus. His brother, a software engineer, consults and designs infrastructure through his own software development company and cleared $150k. My friend from Colombia who is 28 and immigrated to Canada in 2010 as a chemical engineer made $95,000 in spite of having the most experience out of the three.

veyron
03-24-2013, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by kaput
Google what software engineers can make in the US.
Software engineering was ranked as number 1 profession in states. Its good, but there is a lot of outsourcing and unless you own your own company, its risky. Also banking on going states to get a good job is a step too much for me.


Originally posted by Uncle Flappy
Sounds to me like you know which 2 interest you, but are concerned that you are "throwing away your choice" since generally software and electrical are picked last.

Yes I do like software and electrical the most out of the four, but then again these two are much cooler and appealing. I mean creating cool robots and programming them beats estimating loads and moments around a concrete slab any day right?

Also why are electrical and software priority two and requires the least GPA? I kinda get it with software as alberta is not exactly a silicon valley and there is not much computer stuff that goes around here, but what about electrical? I was expecting a lot of people to go in there. Does that not equate to job prospects?

Its early in the morning, and Im probably not making much sense, but why Im inclining towards civil and chemical over the software and electrical is the job stability and pay (shallow I know). Especially with civil, the chances of getting laid off are really low. But I don't want to go through four years of uni, and realize that the degree i got is not fit for the job market.

dirtsniffer
03-24-2013, 09:49 AM
Why ya snubbing mechanical?

veyron
03-24-2013, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by Isaiah

It may seem so now, when you're in your late teens or early twenties, but believe me down the stretch that will mean nothing. Excelling in any engineering field will get you into the 6 figure range by the time you're 30 so choosing the expertise you'll be practicing for the rest of your career based on the income range of your first 3-4 years out of school is unwise.

My 25 year old civil engineer friend, currently with Suncor, made $100,000+ last year including his bonus. His brother, a software engineer, consults and designs infrastructure through his own software development company and cleared $150k. My friend from Colombia who is 28 and immigrated to Canada in 2010 as a chemical engineer made $95,000 in spite of having the most experience out of the three.

I am sorry if my earlier posts gave an impression of me chasing only after the money. That is definitely not me. However, yes I do want to earn a good living and ultimately money does matter in the real world.

Getting a software engineering degree and using my expertise every day is certainly a very appealing prospect. And you are right, I shouldn't look at the first few years as there is good chance that I will be earning a good salary later in my career IF everything falls in places. However that is a big IF.

As computer related jobs are getting outsourced to the shores of India and other countries everyday, the field is becoming less and less stable. A company in India can make the same software for $5000, for which we charge say $50,000. So why would a company not outsource? (I digress)

Now compare that with civil engineering. You get a decent job with a good salary and benefits right out of school (if you are good enough). The job is very stable and unless you screw up massively, will only get better. These are things which can't be said for software engineers (and maybe to electrical as well?).

This is why, as much as I love software engineering, am leaning towards civil and chemical. Stability is a funny thing i guess...

veyron
03-24-2013, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by dirtsniffer
Why ya snubbing mechanical?

Doesn't have the appeal of electrical or software (for me), or the stability of civil

XylathaneGTR
03-24-2013, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by veyron

Also why are electrical and software priority two and requires the least GPA? I kinda get it with software as alberta is not exactly a silicon valley and there is not much computer stuff that goes around here, but what about electrical? I was expecting a lot of people to go in there. Does that not equate to job prospects?

Simply demand. Everyone wants to do Chem/Mech/O&G because they think it will give them a better job. It might, but I don't think electrical will screw you. FWIW, Electrical was a top choice when my father was in Engineering at the UofA in the early 70s.
I think the only way an electrical degree would equate to poor job prospects was if you're an idiot...in which case you'd be screwed with whatever you did.



Especially with civil, the chances of getting laid off are really low. But I don't want to go through four years of uni, and realize that the degree i got is not fit for the job market.

What are you basing the 'laid off' statement on? In my opinion, having a civil degree does not make you 'layoff-proof.' If you're at a company that needs to cut staff, an EIT w/ BSc in Civil won't do shit for you.
It would be worse to go through four years of University and get a degree that you aren't passionate about, which leads to a 30+ year career of something you don't like. Try and think longer term. If you're driven and passionate about what you do, you can go just about anywhere with any engineering degree.

veyron
03-24-2013, 10:19 AM
:(

veyron
03-24-2013, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by XylathaneGTR

Simply demand. Everyone wants to do Chem/Mech/O&G because they think it will give them a better job. It might, but I don't think electrical will screw you. FWIW, Electrical was a top choice when my father was in Engineering at the UofA in the early 70s.
I think the only way an electrical degree would equate to poor job prospects was if you're an idiot...in which case you'd be screwed with whatever you did.


Yea electrical was a first choice some 10 years ago at U of C as well. But I did a bit of research on the job bank (http://www.canada.gc.ca/) and damn, apart from the consulting jobs, electrical engineers are paid peanuts. I mean like $40,000 per year!





What are you basing the 'laid off' statement on? In my opinion, having a civil degree does not make you 'layoff-proof.' If you're at a company that needs to cut staff, an EIT w/ BSc in Civil won't do shit for you.
It would be worse to go through four years of University and get a degree that you aren't passionate about, which leads to a 30+ year career of something you don't like. Try and think longer term. If you're driven and passionate about what you do, you can go just about anywhere with any engineering degree.

Its very tempting, and I was set on software but I don't know if its worth the risk. Its easy to think that we can do good in whatever we are passionate about and so on, but when you actually go out in the real world its tough. Just look at all the aspiring musicians, actors out there (maybe a bad analogy). And its not like I hate chemical and civil engineering, I enjoy it, just not as much as electrical or software.

I said civil is most stable because most of the time, city/province/fed jobs are civil and they rarely lay off any of their employees. Compare that with any private companies and consulting firms, especially the small ones.

XylathaneGTR
03-24-2013, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by veyron

Yea electrical was a first choice some 10 years ago at U of C as well. But I did a bit of research on the job bank (http://www.canada.gc.ca/) and damn, apart from the consulting jobs, electrical engineers are paid peanuts. I mean like $40,000 per year!

I work as an EIT for an owner/operator (mech background). There's another EIT doing the same work that I do w/ an electrical background. So...yeah, quite a bit more than 40k/yr and he and I have, at the moment, very similar opportunities before us.
My father has an electrical background and also works for an owner/operator. After doing discipline specific work for about 10ish years, he started to deviate into the management role. He's got a pretty specialized skill set and he does pretty well and has had a great career so far.



Its very tempting, and I was set on software but I don't know if its worth the risk. Its easy to think that we can do good in whatever we are passionate about and so on, but when you actually go out in the real world its tough. Just look at all the aspiring musicians, actors out there (maybe a bad analogy). And its not like I hate chemical and civil engineering, I enjoy it, just not as much as electrical or software.

I said civil is most stable because most of the time, city/province/fed jobs are civil and they rarely lay off any of their employees. Compare that with any private companies and consulting firms, especially the small ones.
I would say that your analogy is a bit apples-oranges. Completely different industry with different skills and different opportunities.
If you think you'd be happy in chemical or civil, then go for it. There are a bunch of people who went into engineering for money only without actually enjoying what they were doing, and were met with disappointment once they left school. For all the work you put into the degree, that has to be the most unfulfilling way to start a career, ever.
I guess there is some truth to the public sector stability.

tch7
03-24-2013, 02:09 PM
Keep in mind that most of what you do during university, you will never do again after university. It's not until 3rd/4th year that you start to get closer to doing the things that you'd do at an employer.

Also keep in mind that civil is a very broad field with many sub-disciplines: structural, transportation, environmental, water, geotechnical, project management. The first year program really only introduces you to the structural discipline.

I went the civil route with software as my second choice. For me the reasons for civil were:
- Interested me
- Pay is not the best, but not the worst
- Relatively stable and more in-demand
- You can move anywhere in the world and find a civil job
- More opportunities for field work & travel
- Relatively non-technical and intuitive
- One of the most versatile engineering degrees (Mech is similarly versatile)

FraserB
03-24-2013, 05:03 PM
First thing to learn about all those salary surveys.

They mean shit in the real world.

themack89
03-25-2013, 12:17 AM
Switch to philosophy

pheoxs
03-25-2013, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by veyron

Yea electrical was a first choice some 10 years ago at U of C as well. But I did a bit of research on the job bank (http://www.canada.gc.ca/) and damn, apart from the consulting jobs, electrical engineers are paid peanuts. I mean like $40,000 per year!



I'm an EE a year and a half out of school and I make 80+k working in the city and never have to travel (no fort mac or any butt fuck nowhere places).

@ OP

Civil Engineers make targets

Mechanical Engineers make weapons

Chemical Engineers make the payload for the weapons

Software Engineers make the targeting systems

veyron
03-25-2013, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by XylathaneGTR

I work as an EIT for an owner/operator (mech background). There's another EIT doing the same work that I do w/ an electrical background. So...yeah, quite a bit more than 40k/yr and he and I have, at the moment, very similar opportunities before us.
My father has an electrical background and also works for an owner/operator. After doing discipline specific work for about 10ish years, he started to deviate into the management role. He's got a pretty specialized skill set and he does pretty well and has had a great career so far.

[b]
I would say that your analogy is a bit apples-oranges. Completely different industry with different skills and different opportunities.
If you think you'd be happy in chemical or civil, then go for it. There are a bunch of people who went into engineering for money only without actually enjoying what they were doing, and were met with disappointment once they left school. For all the work you put into the degree, that has to be the most unfulfilling way to start a career, ever.
I guess there is some truth to the public sector stability.


I came across the $40K figure while searching the job database (http://www.jobbank.gc.ca/detail-eng.aspx?OrderNum=6890708&Source=JobPosting&ProvId=99&kwd=electrical+engineer&OpPage=50&Stdnt=No&PgNum= , http://www.jobbank.gc.ca/detail-eng.aspx?OrderNum=6883187&Source=JobPosting&ProvId=99&kwd=electrical+engineer&OpPage=50&Stdnt=No&PgNum=). While the consulting jobs pay good, I am not sure how the job market is right now for electrical engineers.

Also what bothers me is that if electrical engineering have comparatively similar job opportunities and salary, why the disdain towards it. Its priority two at the university and anyone who can not get into other engineering majors and put in electrical. Does it have to do with the Nortel shutdown and all?


Originally posted by pheoxs


I'm an EE a year and a half out of school and I make 80+k working in the city and never have to travel (no fort mac or any butt fuck nowhere places).

@ OP

Civil Engineers make targets

Mechanical Engineers make weapons

Chemical Engineers make the payload for the weapons

Software Engineers make the targeting systems

Without going into specifics, would you mind telling me where you work? I heard power and utility pays decent.

And I thought chemical engineers made bullets, payloads were still mech engineers' job.

veyron
03-25-2013, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by tch7
Keep in mind that most of what you do during university, you will never do again after university. It's not until 3rd/4th year that you start to get closer to doing the things that you'd do at an employer.

Also keep in mind that civil is a very broad field with many sub-disciplines: structural, transportation, environmental, water, geotechnical, project management. The first year program really only introduces you to the structural discipline.

I went the civil route with software as my second choice. For me the reasons for civil were:
- Interested me
- Pay is not the best, but not the worst
- Relatively stable and more in-demand
- You can move anywhere in the world and find a civil job
- More opportunities for field work & travel
- Relatively non-technical and intuitive
- One of the most versatile engineering degrees (Mech is similarly versatile)

Thank you for the post.

Yes civil is a broad field and is almost always going to be in demand. However, Im not enjoying the Engg 202 (statics) a lot at the moment even if Im doing good in it. I want a job where I can be a bit more creative, and be excited to go work most days.

As for the pay, I think it shoots up once you get P. Eng. and are able to sign documents.

The BMW Guy
03-25-2013, 12:07 PM
I'll chime in, since I was in your shoes about a year ago.
I had to choose between civil vs software (didn't like electrical very much). Long story short, I chose software because I liked it a lot more.

My advice, pick what you like. There will always be a job with money for a motivated person.

Job availability: Like stated before, don't worry about this. You can't base your decision on the current job market if you will be entering the work force 3-4 years from now. With that said, availability currently for both software and civil are good. Most of my friends in civil seem to have found internship positions.

For software, I know last year there weren't enough software students to fill all the engineering internship positions posted. Probably because our department is small at 30-40 people. Keep in mind that you do compete with CPSC students as well though (there are tons of them). But there is more than enough jobs if you are diligent in your search. Only a select few that I know with a crap GPA with no experience to make up for it never got an internship position.

DON'T BE LAZY and you will find a job. I went to every career fair with resumes, applied to companies online and went to many info sessions to talk to employees at software companies. I think I have over 50 unique resumes and cover letters right now, tailored to specific job postings.
I got a nice position lined up for the summer and had offers to work after that as well. Some of the less motivated people I know just sent generic resumes to a few companies and were too lazy to apply to ones that required cover letters or anything more. Guess what? They never got an internship, let alone an interview. Don't be lazy!


Pay: Like stated above, take the surveys and charts posted with a grain of salt. They do have some truth to them but for the most part do not reflect what I have seen.

To give you some first hand figures for software intern salaries. I have seen 45-55k (one exception was 65k but that is rare), with the majority being about 50k. Which is very good money for an intern position ($25/hr!).
From that, I would expect a new grad to get about 60-65k to start. Which is great money, in my opinion, for a fresh grad! Keep in mind these were mostly from software companies that specialize in making O&G software solutions. If you aren't in O&G it will probably be less.

Advice:
If you like electrical and software, pick electrical with a computer minor.
If you like only software, pick software.
If you like civil, pick civil.

All will have jobs and the pay for a motivated person. Just pick what you enjoy the most!

Hope this answers some questions you have. Keep asking away.