Clean slate full size 4x4 build.. Engine Decisions.

[Maxt]

My old Dodge has rust beyond repair, and is useless to me with 2 kids now , being a regular cab truck so I am building a new (to me ) Dodge from the ground up. I have sourced an 81 Crewcab short box platform that has no drivetrain so I can start with clean slate.
I have the following from my old truck.
Dana 60's front and rear with 4.10
Np-435 trans
NP 208 Case with Shift on fly capability.
Built 440 .030 over.

New truck is coming with an A-518, 46 RH 4 speed auto OD which I can adapt to the big block.
But I can go any way with the engine.

Lots of people buy the Crew cab trucks to do Cummins swaps into.
Pro's of Cummins, huge torque, good mileage and engine life.

Downsides : Weight of engine off road is a problem, the expense of getting a used ISB common rail(6000-9000), cost of stand alone diesel engine management, having to brake boost in deep mud to get wheel speed.

The other option I like is Big block power, thinking something 500 cid +.
Pro's: Cheap to build( stroker kit is 1700). Immediate throttle response and torque, no lag. Awesome wheel speed in mud, wider rev range, Can be built to run on regular gas and still make huge power. Lightweight with aluminium heads and intake compared to diesel.
Downsides: Less transmission options, worse mileage, may not last as long as a diesel. Ignition to get wet offroad.

I don't have any spare diesel stuff around, but I have tons of big block stuff , 2 440 engines, a 400, headers, accessories etc etc. I also have a haltech ecu that can run it sitting unused in a box..

Thoughts?

[spikerS]

All things being equal after the engine, I would go the Cummins route. Best of all worlds, assuming you can get a good deal on one. Weight should not be a real big issue, I would just source a leaf setup from a 1 ton.

however, money wise, and aftermarket upgrade wise, I would be looking for something along the lines of a 440. TONS of aftermarket support and parts, PnP if needed easily. Downside, this is going to get the worst gas mileage, but will generate the most power.

[carson blocks]

For off-road I'd be tempted to go with a 318/360V8 with fuel injection to keep the weight down. If you want a Cummins though, get an old 12v mechanical, just a couple wires to hook up, no ecu, simple and reliable as it gets.

If you do decide to go Cummins, I've got a ultra low mile (178k)12v mechanical Cummins / 5spd setup in a rusty 91 Dodge that would make a good donor truck.

[SKR]

Like above I'd go with a 12 valve over a 24 valve for simplicity's sake, if you want a diesel. Though I think if I was building an off-roader, as much as I like diesels I'd use a gas motor. A little lighter, a lot revvier, all the power you'll need.

[Maxt]

The weight issue isnt really with the trucks ability to hold it, its the truck in the mud that is the problem.. Last time I went serious 4x4'ing, admittedly quite some time ago, I went with a half dozen trucks, 2 of which were diesels.. I spent most of the day pulling those 2 trucks out of every deep bog, and one of those trucks was wearing 38's while at that time I was rolling on 36" swampers. The front ends of those trucks just dug for China in the soft stuff .
The 440 is 670 lbs stock, The cummins is around 1100 in loaded. The 440 with Aluminum heads, intake, water pump and headers is around 550 lbs.
The 12v is an easy swap, but that is a low power motor, and would require an injection pump swap to give it some steam... Basically a person needs to buy a 12v truck to get the auxillary diesel stuff, then buy a common rail to get something that makes real power and still have some manners. I daily drive a 2006 cummins, superb engine, lots of torque and good mileage, but not the fastest reving engine out there either.
I started 4x4ing with 318's and 360's, with big tires they just couldnt produce the wheel speed to keep the tires clean.. One of the best mods I ever did to my old truck for offroading was the initial 440 swap, it was a totally different beast over a built up small block.
The suspension plan for this next truck is 8" skyjacker lift, sell my current 35x12.5x16.5's and go with 39's or 40's.

[Maxt]

http://www.bigblockdart.com/techpages/weight.shtml

I can also get a Fiberglass front end for this truck for more weight savings.

http://www.off-roadfiberglass.com/offroad/80sdodge.htm

http://www.usbody.com/Pages_Trucks/72-Dodge.htm

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by Maxt

New truck is coming with an A-518, 46 RH 4 speed auto OD which I can adapt to the big block.


I wouldn't, at least not without having the internals upgraded. The 46RH isn't made of glass, but in stock granny-shifting form it won't live long behind a 440.

I'd stick with the 440 for a number of reasons - you already own it, it doesn't weigh a billion pounds, and it makes enough power for you as-is. You're not going to DD it, who cares what mileage it gets.

[Tik-Tok]

440 on propane (cheaper fuel, cleaner burning, 100+ octane, and carb floats? Lol)

[AndyL]

Nah... Totally disagree with all above...

426... Still attainable...

One could also go modern 5.7 hemi - crate or wreck, they're not as bad as one might think... There's still a bunch of flood cars crossing the floor over at the salvage auctions...

[SKR]

Originally posted by Maxt
The 12v is an easy swap, but that is a low power motor, and would require an injection pump swap to give it some steam... Basically a person needs to buy a 12v truck to get the auxillary diesel stuff, then buy a common rail to get something that makes real power and still have some manners.

Stock, sure it's got less power. But there are a whole lot of 2000+hp 12 valves out there. Not too many common rails. That p-pumped motor is the best one they made for making power.

[Rat Fink]

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[Maxt]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat


I wouldn't, at least not without having the internals upgraded. The 46RH isn't made of glass, but in stock granny-shifting form it won't live long behind a 440.

I'd stick with the 440 for a number of reasons - you already own it, it doesn't weigh a billion pounds, and it makes enough power for you as-is. You're not going to DD it, who cares what mileage it gets.

The A-518 that is included, is just a core, I have to rebuild it with a billet front drum, extra clutch packs, and use some A-618 parts in it. It is reallly just a 727 with an overdrive.



Originally posted by Tik-Tok
440 on propane (cheaper fuel, cleaner burning, 100+ octane, and carb floats? Lol)

The only issue with the propane is I use to have 2 stations nearby, now I have none, they pulled their tanks out.



Originally posted by AndyL
Nah... Totally disagree with all above...

426... Still attainable...

One could also go modern 5.7 hemi - crate or wreck, they're not as bad as one might think... There's still a bunch of flood cars crossing the floor over at the salvage auctions...
I could build a Gen 2 hemi using my RB parts:
http://www.stagev.com/pages/hcheads.html
I would just have to hand fab headers and probably go fenderwell style headers.
I really like the new Gen 3 hemi motors and there is a lot of stroker kits for those to, the heads on those also breathe very well. The only issue is people want a ton of money for cores to start with, especially if its an SRT motor which you need to build a big incher.


Originally posted by SKR


Stock, sure it's got less power. But there are a whole lot of 2000+hp 12 valves out there. Not too many common rails. That p-pumped motor is the best one they made for making power.
Thats true but I would still have to put a p7100 on a pre 94 motor, buy governor springs, a turbo or 2, injectors, lift pump etc etc.. which puts about 5k on top of the price of the motor. I like the ISB because its 325 stock, and I know its a tune away from being a 500hp engine, yet still has good idle and lower speed fueling control. But the weight and the memories of pulling and winching diesels out of mud all day long haunts my mind.


Originally posted by Rat Fink
I'd say keep the 440 and NP435. I may have a tarnished image of diesels from my time working with Powerbrokes/smokes/jokes but I just think that for the most part they are so fucking gay in comparison to a large cubic inch gas V8.....especially when talking vintage Mopar.

I'd say stroke your 440 to 500+. It's the cheapest way to more power. I'm pretty sure that NP435 can take it (have you ever seen anyone wreck one of those yet?). Converting to auto would be too boring, especially when you are used to rowing your truck with the 3 foot throw. Plus, when your old lady is sitting beside you, you can spice things up by shifting into reverse.....I know you know what I'm talking about!.....might result in a 3rd kid :rofl:

Np453 is tough, but mine is bruised, second gear synchro is gone and has a whine in 3rd. But stout it is, it has no OD, which I would like to keep the highway rpms down on it. I always liked standards for engine braking off road, but the autos always had that upshift without speed loss advantage in the mud, and then 2 foot driving over big obstacles was a lot easier to do than with the standard.
I had to bend my shifter with with the body lift in the old truck, it would hit the seat and when the drive line torqued it would rip it out of reverse.
With the big inch motor, I just wonder what the MPG will be like with EFI and overdrive... My 440 isn't half bad right now, its not that far off my srt jeep, but it turns to fast at highway speeds which I know could be better with the OD. I could build an adapter for an nv5600 6 speed stick, but those are top dollar transmissions to.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by Maxt


The A-518 that is included, is just a core, I have to rebuild it with a billet front drum, extra clutch packs, and use some A-618 parts in it. It is reallly just a 727 with an overdrive.



True enough, with good internals (eg. extra clutches ala 47RH, replacing the failure-prone snap rings, etc.) a 46RH can stand up to a fair amount. Throw in a good shift kit (or even a manual valve body with pushbutton OD) and it'll be rock solid.

Do you build/upgrade your own trannys or farm them out? I've got a spare 46RH I'm thinking of having built up a bit.

[Alak]

Run a 3 rotor max, cmon man. Do something original.






I personally would go with a diesel. But then again, Im a diesel guy. And I have a diesel. You can pretty much run a mechanical diesel fully submerged. Reliability. I've seen lots of guys blow big blocks up in the mud.

You don't necessarily have to run a cummins engine. They arn't the end all be all.

[Maxt]

I've got 2 -20b swaps on the go right now, I really don't need another..
I looked at something like a dt466 to, but to much weight again..

The last automatic I bought was BD diesel performance trans for my 06 cummins, (48re).. If I would have had more time to do it, I would have done it myself.. I am really less than impressed with the BD product. Their reprogramming of the VB to me is not very good for an in city vehicle, their shifts are way to aggressive for a truck with big weight on it. Their pans are low quality, I am on my second that is leaking , first had a casting flaw resulting in a hot drip, second one the rail is machined with a step in that cuts the gasket and leaks when the truck is running. They also need to learn how to clean parts, they paint the exterior of the trans gloss gray, some of the paint came off during install because they painted over clumps of mud on the transmission case. The only thing I have praise for so far is the converter, their lower stall converter works as advertised and I gained 2 mpg over stock with it.

Back in the 90's I built two 727's and both worked fine, so I will be doing the a-518 myself. Now that diesel bombing is so popular, there is a lot of pretty good parts for all makes of trans now.

[SKR]

Originally posted by Maxt
The last automatic I bought was BD diesel performance trans for my 06 cummins, (48re).. If I would have had more time to do it, I would have done it myself.. I am really less than impressed with the BD product. Their reprogramming of the VB to me is not very good for an in city vehicle, their shifts are way to aggressive for a truck with big weight on it.

I had an NADP transmission in my '05 Dodge and it felt the same way. Shifted way too hard.

[Rat Fink]

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[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by Maxt


Back in the 90's I built two 727's and both worked fine, so I will be doing the a-518 myself. Now that diesel bombing is so popular, there is a lot of pretty good parts for all makes of trans now.

Right on, I'd love to build my own but I just haven't got the shop space yet. Maybe in the summer.

This walkthrough might help you with the upgrades, it's a 46RE but they're basically the same minus the valve body and OD unit.

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f13/46re-tutorial-911009/

[Rat Fink]

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[Alak]

2 stroke Detroit would be the way to go for mudding. A nice 4-53T or maybe a 6-53T. Big engines, but well worth it. Incredible low end kick. Supercharger, Turbocharger, big RPM's. I would run one in my own truck if I wasn't planning to run a CAT engine in the future.


Planetary Transmission. FORD or ALLISON. Allisons are retarded easy to rebuild. Since they copied ford, I imagine fords are just the same.

[Maxt]

I looked at those, still pretty heavy to put into something for mudrunning. If one was willing to go to 2.5 ton rockwells and some mega tires with some big time width it might be worthwhile..
You either have to have a tall enough tire to hit the bottom of the bogs, or a vehicle with enough instant wheel speed and rpm capability to swim the mud. Tall enough is 44-48" tires but that size of tire pretty much kills using the truck for anything else.
I want to stick with a 37-40" inch tire and no more than 11" lift total.
Really to handle some of these big diesel motors, a guy should just start with a crew cab international 3 or 5 ton and add some military parts to it.
Looking at my cores I have, I am thinking a low deck B block with 512 cid and some rpm alum heads. Torque peak of around 4100 and max power at 5500, add some main caps and girdle to make it handle a bounce to 7000 rpm. That should give me flywheel numbers around 650 hp and 700 ft/lbs and really wide RPM band. Cost me around 8-9 grand to build it and it will weigh in around 620 lbs.
I currently have all steel nerf bars and heavy winch bumper on my current truck, all that is going to be gone and I will remake everything out of aluminium this time around. I have braden 10,000 lb winch that will be remounted on the front of the new truck, and I will probably buy a second winch and bed mount it in the rear.

I have black turbine mags in 8 bolt and with the hugger orange on the cab, there is only one paint scheme in the world that fits all that together..;) ..