Software engineering vs Computer science

[nzwasp]

Has anyone taken either of these programs and could tell me which one is more programming centric?

Im just curious also of the pass rates for exams, for instance my brother is doing a computer science degree in my home country (New Zealand) and the pass rates for exams are less than 50%. For the final exam you need 40% or better to pass. I wondered if it was the same here or harder?

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by nzwasp
Has anyone taken either of these programs and could tell me which one is more programming centric?

Im just curious also of the pass rates for exams, for instance my brother is doing a computer science degree in my home country (New Zealand) and the pass rates for exams are less than 50%. For the final exam you need 40% or better to pass. I wondered if it was the same here or harder?

I took EE but did some courses with the SE guys when I was at the UofC. Engineering will be harder simply due to the better students and hence harder bell curve. Whenever you had a mix class of computer science and engineering. Computer science got curb stomped in the bell curve. Pass rates of 50% would be pretty good in first year engineering... You lose a fair bit of the class in the first couple years. Around 55% of admitted students do not make it through engineering(Could be higher or lower nowadays haven't looked at any recent stats).

Neither Computer Science or Software Engineering is all that programming centric since frankly University is not trade school. You learn a lot of theory and math but the emphasis is not on actual programming. To quote a very famous computer scientist: "Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes."

Long term I am of the opinion the engineering degree will always be superior due to the fact you can get a P.Eng and work on safety critical system which someone with a Computer Science degree will not be able to do... In addition you can take your engineering degree and practice in other fields without having to go back to school. You could become an EE in theory for example. End of the day if all you want to do is code and are worried about the academics SAIT is probably where you should be going.

[AG_Styles]

I took CS and am currently in the masters program in CMD. In terms of programming centric, the CS program as an undergrad should be that. They don't really teach you c++, you have to figure it out and you're expected to know it as you head into the 3rd and 4th year courses. Some courses are horrible, but it's really up to you to know what you actually want to do with your life and structure your classes to achieve that end.

Your degree is what you make from it. Everyone pretty much has one nowadays so you'd have to choose what is best for you to parlay with what you hope to accomplish outside school to prove how valuable you are.

as far as an eng degree being superior... meeh, engineers always have soimething to prove, this being Alberta and all. Some of the greatest programmers i know have a CS degree, others have an SE degree, and they do the same jobs at Google, FB, MS, etc... Just have a worthwhile portfolio handy and you'll be fine. The trick is again, knowing what you want to do at the end of the day. ;)

[z2two]

if you're worrying about pass rates... you should probably consider a different major

[rage2]

Of all degrees that are useless, these are probably it. While 10 years ago a CS or SE degree mattered, it's not the same today. Companies hire on talent when looking for developers, and half the CS resumes we interview are absolutely garbage. Degrees are definitely not a requirement these days, and not having one is not a barrier to a job either.

Some may argue that you learn to work in a team environment, but development processes have evolved so quickly these days, every company works completely different from one another, so you really have to learn all over again wherever you go.

I guess if you're horny for working with "safety critical system" while getting paid less than the code monkey at a software shop, go ahead with the SE degree.

[AG_Styles]

I agree rage. but the only caveat is that if you want to legally relocate overseas, most countries still require proof of a legitimate degree. I know I was hassled by the Chinese govt to provide 2+ years documented work experience in addition to my degree which is supposed to directly deal with the job I was filling. other than that, I find that in my line of work, and even as an employer, I care more about what a potential candidate does on his own time than what his gpa/school projects are, unless said projects can be proven to show a direct correlation to what they're being hired to do.

[eblend]

Originally posted by rage2
Of all degrees that are useless, these are probably it. While 10 years ago a CS or SE degree mattered, it's not the same today. Companies hire on talent when looking for developers, and half the CS resumes we interview are absolutely garbage. Degrees are definitely not a requirement these days, and not having one is not a barrier to a job either.

Some may argue that you learn to work in a team environment, but development processes have evolved so quickly these days, every company works completely different from one another, so you really have to learn all over again wherever you go.

I guess if you're horny for working with "safety critical system" while getting paid less than the code monkey at a software shop, go ahead with the SE degree.

At my workplace they value degrees above all, which is weird but good for me. My direct lead told me that I will get further ahead in the company than my co-worker simply because I had a degree....I thought that was kind of weird, so I think it really depends on the company.

Another option is MGIS at Haskayne if you want to get a BComm, but not much programming at all really, more database related and using IT systems for business decisions and stuff. I started in Comp Sci but transferred to MGIS as I found it much more interesting. Comp Sci program, aside from programming classes, is a lot of math. I remember taking at least 2 math classes each semester before I switched, whereas in MGIS you can do more interesting and beneficial things like Marketing, Ops Management, Finance, Accounting ect. Some people hate some of these things but I found them to be very valuable to understand how the world works, vs learning math nonstop.

To this day I get nightmares sometimes about not being ready for an exam haha, and that exam is usually for a math class haha. In the first 1.5 years that I did before switching I took 6 math classes.....fun... :guns:

[sabad66]

Originally posted by rage2
Of all degrees that are useless, these are probably it. While 10 years ago a CS or SE degree mattered, it's not the same today. Companies hire on talent when looking for developers, and half the CS resumes we interview are absolutely garbage. Degrees are definitely not a requirement these days, and not having one is not a barrier to a job either.

Some may argue that you learn to work in a team environment, but development processes have evolved so quickly these days, every company works completely different from one another, so you really have to learn all over again wherever you go.

I guess if you're horny for working with "safety critical system" while getting paid less than the code monkey at a software shop, go ahead with the SE degree.
The chances of getting hired with a big company are slim to none without a degree. Yes there are a few exceptions out there but good luck getting on with Google/FB/MS/Amazon/Apple etc without at least a bachelor's. I'm not saying it automatically makes you better, but it's just the way companies do things.

Regarding the OP - the programs are very similar (in fact a lot of courses overlap) but you get a little more diversity with the SE degree that you wouldn't get with CS. For example first year SE is the same as all of the other engg disciplines, so you'll get a taste of chemistry/physics/design/electronics and then in the last year you'll take the common ethics and 4th yr project course.

Another + for SE is that it's easier to sign up for other non-SE engg courses since it's still part of the same faculty. For example i had a friend in SE who did his internship at a Reservoir engineering software company and was able to sign up for a few RE courses in his 4th year (since he was going to be working for them after graduation and wanted to learn a bit more about the area he was going to be writing software for).

[rage2]

Originally posted by AG_Styles
I agree rage. but the only caveat is that if you want to legally relocate overseas, most countries still require proof of a legitimate degree.
There are workarounds for that. I was offered jobs at top US companies, and they were able to figure out how to get me down there, green card within 5 years, without a degree. We just relocated an employee without a degree to the US. It's not rocket science.


Originally posted by eblend
At my workplace they value degrees above all, which is weird but good for me. My direct lead told me that I will get further ahead in the company than my co-worker simply because I had a degree....I thought that was kind of weird, so I think it really depends on the company.
Yup, there are still companies out there that do that. But it's getting less and less restrictive. Especially in Calgary, where there's a huge shortage of real programming talent, if you've got what it takes, you're going to get a job.


Originally posted by sabad66
The chances of getting hired with a big company are slim to none without a degree. Yes there are a few exceptions out there but good luck getting on with Google/FB/MS/Amazon/Apple etc without at least a bachelor's. I'm not saying it automatically makes you better, but it's just the way companies do things.
Straight from Google's Hiring VP's mouth:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/opinion/sunday/friedman-how-to-get-a-job-at-google.html

[AG_Styles]

yah rage, but referencing the H1B guide, without a degree, it just takes longer to get there. I have no doubt you have more than 12 years of experience. US immigration counts 3 work experience years to equal 1 year of post secondary. so 12 years is a 4 year bachelor equiv. They also count years you spent in a non-completed degree program.

So to a younger person, if they would like to immigrate at age 24 or so, then it's more advantageous to get the degree.

But I do agree in the software dev field that again, experience trumps academics. When I was being interviewed by MS, they didn't really care about my degree, just my working knowledge and portfolio. The degree was just used for the visa approval side.

[rage2]

Originally posted by AG_Styles
yah rage, but referencing the H1B guide, without a degree, it just takes longer to get there. I have no doubt you have more than 12 years of experience.
You're not thinking outside the box. There's a loophole for *everything*. One of the job offers was from 13 years ago where I wouldn't have the experience. Get a TN Visa for several years, qualify for H1B, then off to the green card race. That's 1 loophole for non degree holders. We deal with specialized immigration lawyers that employers hire to handle cross border hiring, and those guys do this every day.

TN Visas are also easier to get than H1Bs, so even if you had a degree and got a US job offer, the immigration lawyer that works on your file would probably do the exact same thing anyways.

[AG_Styles]

Originally posted by rage2

You're not thinking outside the box. There's a loophole for *everything*. One of the job offers was from 13 years ago where I wouldn't have the experience. Get a TN Visa for several years, qualify for H1B, then off to the green card race. That's 1 loophole for non degree holders. We deal with specialized immigration lawyers that employers hire to handle cross border hiring, and those guys do this every day.

TN Visas are also easier to get than H1Bs, so even if you had a degree and got a US job offer, the immigration lawyer that works on your file would probably do the exact same thing anyways.

ahhh that's right! immigration site said i'd be based on country of birth though and not citizenship??? so I don't qualify for TN but have to go through the H1B races instead!

I will probably need to pick your brain on this. Which lawyers do you go through in Calgary?

[rage2]

Originally posted by AG_Styles
I will probably need to pick your brain on this. Which lawyers do you go through in Calgary?
I have no idea who we use, not am I an expert in this field. I don't work in HR. I'm just citing an example that I'm familiar with.

I'm sure googling immigration lawyer or tn VISA Calgary will point you in the right direction.

[nzwasp]

I already have a CS degree. I was just interested if the passrates were as low in canada as they are in other parts of the world. Because if its only a 40% pass rate that seems to low.

[rage2]

I contributed to the low pass rate haha. I did 2 years of the CPSC program before I've had enough.

[thetransporter]

with all the talent non-degree and degree computer people I wonder why there isn't an alternative facebook made by people with good intentions or open source or something.

[killramos]

Originally posted by thetransporter
with all the talent non-degree and degree computer people I wonder why there isn't an alternative facebook made by people with good intentions or open source or something.

Same reason google plus failed. No users. Facebook if you set up an account today everyone you know and then some is already there.

[rage2]

Originally posted by thetransporter
with all the talent non-degree and degree computer people I wonder why there isn't an alternative facebook made by people with good intentions or open source or something.
That's because very few programmers have any idea what customers want. I'd argue that very few product managers know either. Then there's marketing, creating demand, etc.

[ZedMan]

Originally posted by thetransporter
with all the talent non-degree and degree computer people I wonder why there isn't an alternative facebook made by people with good intentions or open source or something.

Ever heard of Diaspora (https://joindiaspora.com/)? Yeah, I didn't think so :rofl:

And thus the problem is illustrated.

[UndrgroundRider]

Originally posted by thetransporter
with all the talent non-degree and degree computer people I wonder why there isn't an alternative facebook made by people with good intentions or open source or something.

You're confusing programming ability with business acumen.

Facebook was the result of a perfect storm of factors and a little dumb luck. It wasn't the result of super technical work or long hours. A lot of people tend to forget that there were dozens, maybe even hundreds of social networking platforms before Facebook. What really made it stand out were the business choices Zuckerberg made, not how technically advanced it was. (In actuality, it was fairly unsophisticated, being originally written in PHP using MySQL as a back-end database.)

[rage2]

Originally posted by UndrgroundRider
Facebook was the result of a perfect storm of factors and a little dumb luck. It wasn't the result of super technical work or long hours. A lot of people tend to forget that there were dozens, maybe even hundreds of social networking platforms before Facebook. What really made it stand out were the business choices Zuckerberg made, not how technically advanced it was. (In actuality, it was fairly unsophisticated, being originally written in PHP using MySQL as a back-end database.)
Ebay was the same thing. Their database model would make any programmer out of college cringe, but it works, and scales very well, and to the front end user, it feels like it works. Which makes a programming degree even more useless haha.

[thetransporter]

Originally posted by rage2

Ebay was the same thing. Their database model would make any programmer out of college cringe, but it works, and scales very well, and to the front end user, it feels like it works. Which makes a programming degree even more useless haha.

are talking about that ebay was running from that one file ebayissomething.cgi ? I always wondered about that

[rage2]

No, I'm talking about how their database backend doesn't use transactions at all. Just carefully ordered writes, and tons of back end processes to clean up corruption. There's also a lot of cool abstract concepts that are completely opposite of what you would be taught in school.

eBay has been pretty open with their designs, fun read especially if you're a DBA.

[googe]

Originally posted by rage2

I have no idea who we use, not am I an expert in this field. I don't work in HR. I'm just citing an example that I'm familiar with.

I'm sure googling immigration lawyer or tn VISA Calgary will point you in the right direction.

Your example doesn't work because you can't get a TN with no degree unless you have 12 years of experience (or a combo of 1 year of post-secondary vs 3 years of experience to total 4 degree years).

You can L1-B after working for a Canadian subsidiary for a year, which bypasses the degree requirement, but that sucks for other reasons. You can't convert to a H1-B or a TN from that with no degree, and you get in the shitty green card line, IF your employer wants to sponsor you. And there is no reason for them to - all it lets you do is work for someone else. In the mean time, you're their slave, and without them employing you, you get sent back home and lose your place in line for another 6+ years (or 8-12 years if you were born in China or India).

Or marry an American.

And yeah, whoever says you wont get a job at FB/Amazon/Google/MS without a degree is wrong. It's not as easy, and a degree isn't useless, but it's not a requirement. Unlike other posters, I'm not speculating with regards to that.

And once you're in, nobody in the tech industry looks at your degree to decide whether or not you will be promoted. It's only somewhat relevant when you're short on experience or trying to get an internship. After that, your career trajectory is based purely on results (and usually making the right friends that give you opportunities to demonstrate your results).

[rage2]

You definitely can get a TN with no degree. Here's a quick google search blurb:

http://www.tnvisabulletin.com/nafta-tn-blog/2010/11/1/tn-visa-work-authorization-for-it-workers-with-no-degreedipl.html

That's 1 loophole, there are many others out there.

[thetransporter]

Originally posted by UndrgroundRider


You're confusing programming ability with business acumen.

Facebook was the result of a perfect storm of factors and a little dumb luck. It wasn't the result of super technical work or long hours. A lot of people tend to forget that there were dozens, maybe even hundreds of social networking platforms before Facebook. What really made it stand out were the business choices Zuckerberg made, not how technically advanced it was. (In actuality, it was fairly unsophisticated, being originally written in PHP using MySQL as a back-end database.)

well i was thinking programming + businessman in one..
Didn't Mr Zuckerberg use his connections to get funding from Paypal Founder? But still you have many good points.

[UndrgroundRider]

Originally posted by thetransporter


well i was thinking programming + businessman in one..
Didn't Mr Zuckerberg use his connections to get funding from Paypal Founder? But still you have many good points.

A lot of founders of tech companies do have both of those talents in spades, but that's the exception, not the rule. Which was the basis of my response about why you don't see any old programmer making a successful facebook-esk social platform.

Sean Parker was largely responsible for getting Facebook funded in their first venture round. He liaised between Mark and Peter Thiel. Mark himself didn't have any business contacts as far as I know.