Rain Barrel Water Dynamics...will this work?

[eblend]

Hey guys,

Got 4 large 55Gallon food drums that I want to use for rain water collection system in my backyard. I am thinking of how to pipe them together and not sure if this plan will work or not given on how the fluid flows and the positive and negative pressures involved. I want to know if what I came up with will work or if I have to make additional changes somewhere.

In my opinion it should flow as such:

1. Water enters barrel 1 via pipe 1
2. Water automatically moves over to barrel 3 via pipe 2
3. Barrel 3 begins to fill, and fills barrel 4 at the same rate, via pipe 3
4. Once both barrel 3 and 4 are full, water starts to build up in barrel 1 and 2 at the same rate, barrel 1 being fed by pipe 1, and barrel 2 being fed up by pipe 4 from barrel 4
5. All barrels are full, tripping the downspout collector to overfill and divert water down the gutter.

Does this seem to make sense? Will a single vent at the top work as intended with this setup, as it is essentially shared between all barrels and can release the pressure as it's filled or drained?

Would a clear pipe like shown work to show the level of water in the system, or will the water overflow at the top? I figure as long as the top is above the waterline of the drums, it will reach that level but never overflow, am I completely wrong here?

The idea is that I would be able to open the bottom tap (red circle) and would be able to drain the whole system as I need to use the rain water, or for the winter.

Let me know your opinions or advice!

Thanks!

[big A]

Since I'm lazy all I did was get a 250 gallon tote. I put a 5 gallon bucket under the gooseneck that you can see in the pic. You also can close off the gooseneck and attach a garden hose.


I put 25 feeder goldfish in there to eat the mosquitoes and a pond breather to keep them alive in the winter.

The goldfish poo turns into nitrates which is great for plants.

Everyone has their own version of rain water collection system and after working the bugs out it works great for them. I'm sure your version is perfect for you.

Keep us updated.

[nzwasp]

A pond breather wouldnt stop the water from freezing?

How come you didnt just use a mesh to stop the mosquitos

[jacky4566]

Looks good to me!
When the system overflows. Which it will.
Where does the extra go? Plan it so when the system is full pipe 1 stops flowing or will even backflow into the drain spout.

[jwslam]

I don't think the single depressurization would work. Your pipe 2 and 4 at the top of your 3/4 barrels are not necessarily at a high point. Do you see what I'm saying? If you collect enough water in barrels 1/2, there may be enough pressure to pop your 3/4 barrels.

[eblend]

Originally posted by jacky4566
Looks good to me!
When the system overflows. Which it will.
Where does the extra go? Plan it so when the system is full pipe 1 stops flowing or will even backflow into the drain spout.

I was going to use one of these which has an automatic overflow if it's installed at the level of the high water mark in the barrel, they are $25 at rona

http://www.rainharvest.com/graf-quattro-downspout-filter-and-diverter.asp

[eblend]

Originally posted by jwslam
I don't think the single depressurization would work. Your pipe 2 and 4 at the top of your 3/4 barrels are not necessarily at a high point. Do you see what I'm saying? If you collect enough water in barrels 1/2, there may be enough pressure to pop your 3/4 barrels.

EDIT: Just reread your statement and I think clued in on what you were trying to say. Yes because the fill line would cut off the air escape as the fill hole isn't all the way at the top, thus trapping air at the very top of the barrel.

If I drill a hole at the top of each barrel....would water potentially leak out of there, or will it allow the air to escape and move on?

Gosh water dynamics are confusing!

[dirtsniffer]

Pipes 2 and 4 need to be relocated from the sides to the top and bottom of the barrels so air didn't get trapped in the lower barrels.

[eblend]

Looking at this video they added a return air line with a grommet and a water line at the 3:15 mark...wouldn't the water pressure push those lines out once the barrels are full of water?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGqoAkUBD0s

I was really hoping to use existing rain barrel openings vs drilling into the barrels as the openings are screw on as is and have a thread on them for easy pipe fitting.

[dirtsniffer]

Drilling holes in the top barrels will work. Assuming the breather is below them. If the breather is above the to holes they will act as the breather. Drilling holes in the bottom barrels will not work unless it vents to a height above the breather.

[dirtsniffer]

The system shown in that video will work perfectly

[dirtsniffer]

The grommet system should be built to hold 15 to 20 psi

[mr2mike]

It all works in theory but mine would keep getting plugged up with sludge that grew in the bottom. Had to keep snaking it out at the tap and got tired of that.

With the amount of roof area I had, I could fill the 2 - 150 gallon tanks in about 30min or less. Rest was then dumped to the alley.

[eblend]

So with the grommet system in place for the air escape and that all figured out, how about the water level gauge? Would that still work?

[dirtsniffer]

yep

[eblend]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer
yep

Cool, thanks for all the help

[eblend]

After thinking about it some more, I decided to change the way my barrels are setup to this new design. Looking online, other people have done the same way so I think this will work. The main reason why I decided to try it this way instead is that it will take up the same amount of space (originally I thought my other design would be more compact), and that there is only one threaded drum cap per drum, so I would have to do extra work to make the other drum cap capable of accepting a pipe. This new design I would just use the one threaded drum cap to hook up all my pipes.

Any objections? There is a small vent hole for air to escape at the top of each drum. The water should get filled from the bottom up I think.

Here is a picture of someone else doing something similar

http://fyi.uwex.edu/rainbarrels/files/2012/06/P1010152.jpg

[eblend]

Pictures posted here: http://forums.beyond.ca/st2/what-did-you-do-around-the-house-today/showthread.php?s=&threadid=355823&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=13

Yes they would fill from the bottom, at least in theory. I looked online on Youtube and there are many people who have this kind of bottom filling setup, so should work. If it doesn't, I will add side fills instead where it would overflow from one into the other, but for now we will see. I will hook it all up this week and hopefully it rains a lot to fill the whole thing, and see how it works.

Just a correction, the remaining barrels fill from the bottom, the first barrel that is next to the gutter is filled from the top using one of these

http://www.rona.ca/images/44115011_L.jpg

It will be mounted at top of water level, so once the barrels are full, it just discharges the rest down the gutters. There is a door inside of one of these that you close for the winter so that all the water goes straight down and out.

Here is an illustration of how the water filler thing works:

WubeHSXb5ko

EDIT: Mods please move to other section if deemed inappropriate, as it's going off topic a bit here, just answering questions that were posted here.

[Tik-Tok]

I don't see a breather to let the air pressure out at the top? I was just thinking a check valve would be awesome for keeping mosquito's out. With a second manual valve for when you're using the water.


http://www.eblend.ca/Dima/House/i-L97NtB9/0/XL/20140817_193630-XL.jpg

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by eblend
Here is a picture of someone else doing something similar

http://fyi.uwex.edu/rainbarrels/files/2012/06/P1010152.jpg
This picture shows water entering through the top of one barrel. Is that your plan as well? if so, I think you are on solid ground here.

EDIT, just to clarify, if your water is entering through the top of one barrel at an unpressurized point (like a normal dounspout/divertor), and you have all the bottoms of the barrels connected and sealed, AND you have the top of each barrel vented, you are good to go. You should also have no issues of water leaking out your level gauge either

I really like the look of that "tote." High volume, and very simple.

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok
I don't see a breather to let the air pressure out at the top? I was just thinking a check valve would be awesome for keeping mosquito's out. With a second manual valve for when you're using the water.


http://www.eblend.ca/Dima/House/i-L97NtB9/0/XL/20140817_193630-XL.jpg
You don't want a one-way check valve, as you will need to let air out when filing, and out when emptying.
Can be a pretty small hole though, and not tough to fit some kind of mesh.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow

You don't want a one-way check valve, as you will need to let air out when filing, and out when emptying.


That's what the valves are for, lol.

Check valve (on the top of the barrel) that lets air out, but closes when the barrel isn't filling, so mosquitos/bugs can't get in, then a manual valve (again, on top), that you open when using (draining) the barrel, to let air out.

[eblend]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok
I don't see a breather to let the air pressure out at the top? I was just thinking a check valve would be awesome for keeping mosquito's out. With a second manual valve for when you're using the water.


http://www.eblend.ca/Dima/House/i-L97NtB9/0/XL/20140817_193630-XL.jpg

Yah that's another thing to do, I am just going to drill a few small holes in there to let the air out, haven't gotten to it yet as I just finished at 8PM last night getting all hooked up. Plan this week is to cut the downpipe to install the water line (to fill the first barrel from the top) and drill some small holes in each barrel to let the air out as they fill.

[codetrap]

Ok. I understand getting caught up in a project for the sake of the project. But does it really make sense? I decided after looking at the costs of a rainbarrel vs the costs per m3 of water, and the water was WAY cheaper from the tap than the sky.

[big A]

Originally posted by nzwasp
A pond breather wouldnt stop the water from freezing?

How come you didnt just use a mesh to stop the mosquitos

I hope this helps explain how the breather works.

http://piscespets.com/products/ponds/pond-maintenance/shut-down-winterizing/allied-precision-industries-pond-breather

The main reason I got the gold fish was that their waste would boost the Nitrites and Nitrates in the water which is very good for the Tomatoes and other plants.

If I make it another season without loosing any, I may start adding Koi because people like looking in there and feeding the fish.

I go to Pisces for my fish and pond questions however I make sure to talk with Norm. He is the expert.

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok


That's what the valves are for, lol.

Check valve (on the top of the barrel) that lets air out, but closes when the barrel isn't filling, so mosquitos/bugs can't get in, then a manual valve (again, on top), that you open when using (draining) the barrel, to let air out.
Ah, I misunderstood, you are doing two valves on top of each barrel. Sounds like a hassle to me, but it would work for sure.

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by codetrap
Ok. I understand getting caught up in a project for the sake of the project. But does it really make sense? I decided after looking at the costs of a rainbarrel vs the costs per m3 of water, and the water was WAY cheaper from the tap than the sky.
I have this kind of argument with my wife all the time. She likes to save the planet, and I like to save money. Those two philosphies are rarely compatible.

[big A]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow


I really like the look of that "tote." High volume, and very simple.

You can get those 250 gallon rain totes from that yard (I don't remember the street name. 28th st maybe) Right by West Dover. Right on the main road where everyone from forest lawn and Dover go to those lookouts to watch the fireworks.

He sells normal rain barrels and recycle vegetable oil drums and 50 gallon steel drum etc.

[ExtraSlow]

Yeah, I remember that guy. Corner of 26 street and 28 avenue SE.

[eblend]

Originally posted by codetrap
Ok. I understand getting caught up in a project for the sake of the project. But does it really make sense? I decided after looking at the costs of a rainbarrel vs the costs per m3 of water, and the water was WAY cheaper from the tap than the sky.

I think over time it may pay off. What scared me with water usage was a stuck toilet flange once...for 2 weeks, my water bill was like $200 bucks haha, up until that point I never thought water could be that expensive.

Regardless, I picked up the barrels for $20 each on kijiji, wood was cull stuff from outside of home depot at 50% off, stain was a mismatch I had from before at $9 a can, and the pipes and various connectors were another $50 or so. In all it was less then $200 to build that, and I won't have to worry about using water, not that I should in the first place, but it's that mentality haha. Fucking toilet...ruined my life.

[big A]

Water cost comparison wasn't even an issue for me. I did the setup because rain water is so much better for your plants.

It's not a shock to them because it is the same temperature as the outside when it gets to them. It doesn't have all the additives as city water.

[eblend]

LET IT RAIN!!! Finally finished hooking in the system, now got to wait for rain and see how it functions.

http://www.eblend.ca/Dima/House/i-JwfFjDV/0/X2/20140819_183624-X2.jpg

[Darell_n]

I don't understand using the diverted thing they sell for downspouts. I just ran the downspout directly into into my barrels to catch it all. I also highly recommend a fractional horse submersible pump to run a sprinkler or soaker hose.

[eblend]

Originally posted by Darell_n
I don't understand using the diverted thing they sell for downspouts. I just ran the downspout directly into into my barrels to catch it all. I also highly recommend a fractional horse submersible pump to run a sprinkler or soaker hose.

Yah that was an option, but I wanted a clean look, and didn't want to have water run into the barrels and instantly freeze come fall or in the spring. With the diverter, I flip a switch and it divers all water down, and it also has a built in overflow so water just continues down once it's full. Really that's why. I know it won't catch 100% of water, but this one is said to be high yield and is supposed to get 90% of it...we will see once it rains.

[eblend]

and its working! pretty good from just a drizzle...that's water level in all 4 barrels

http://www.eblend.ca/Dima/House/i-2StNntX/0/X2/20140820_171432-X2.jpg

[Darell_n]

I wanted to catch it all during the Stampede time when it's hot as hell and only get 10 minute showers every 3 or 4 days. It was the only way to bring up the levels in my barrels (same # as you) during the quick rain sessions. Another tip is to route the run off to an area than doesn't receive any rain normally. I ran a 1" hose around 10ft to my south shrubs that the house protects from rain. Might as well use it all. And I dump mine for the winter. Blew up 1 barrel with ice the first fall, fixed it with a stainless strip and rivets and hasn't lost a drop in 9 years.

[codetrap]

Did you add a first flush divertor?

http://www.rainharvest.com/rain-harvesting-pty-downspout-first-flush-diverter.asp

Also, I know people are going on about how rainwater is better for plants than city water.. but does that bear out with the science? I wasn't able to really find any hard studies that said this, and none that took any of the roofing materials into account.

In short, I'm not convinced. As for the cost? It's clear that the payback is a LONG time for rainwater... like 40+ years vs tap water, even for a $200 overall cost. I'm also not criticizing your install. It does look great. I'm just interested in the overall discussion. Kindof like I did an analysis on wind/solar in my area. I'd totally do it for a hobby, but it makes no economic sense.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[eblend]

Originally posted by codetrap
Did you add a first flush divertor?

http://www.rainharvest.com/rain-harvesting-pty-downspout-first-flush-diverter.asp

Also, I know people are going on about how rainwater is better for plants than city water.. but does that bear out with the science? I wasn't able to really find any hard studies that said this, and none that took any of the roofing materials into account.

In short, I'm not convinced. As for the cost? It's clear that the payback is a LONG time for rainwater... like 40+ years vs tap water, even for a $200 overall cost. I'm also not criticizing your install. It does look great. I'm just interested in the overall discussion. Kindof like I did an analysis on wind/solar in my area. I'd totally do it for a hobby, but it makes no economic sense.

Not terribly worried about the first flush diverter, didn't even know what that was until i read the link. This is not for storing drinking water, just gardening, so don't really care too much what get gets in there in terms of this small stuff.

I did it for a hobby like you said, nothing more really. It's a fun project to do, and if I can save some tap water, even better.