When do you charge?

[C_Dave45]

All my life, my dream job has been to be a professional photographer. But I realize it's along the same lines as the 10 year old whose dream job is to play in the NHL.
So I've been happy learning it as a hobby and even more of a bonus when a few of my shots can be used by the Junior team my son volunteers/works for. I am only too happy to offer my services when I'm at the games to do stuff like this for them: Red Carpet award (http://www.ajhl.ca/media/files/upload/IMG_6143small.JPG) Player of the month (http://www.ajhl.ca/media/files/upload/Drackett%202.jpg), etc, etc.

But out of the blue the team owner calls and asks if I'm available such-and-such night to take a few pics "of the boys at the Fire Hall". He made it sound like it was some small promo thing and if someone was there to take pics great, if not, no big deal. It was a weeknight, and I had to take myself away from the family dinner hour, but I was kind of flattered he asked, so I said "Okay".

I roll in and I see the entire team and coaching staff, along with jerseys...I start to get that feeling in my stomach, "Uhh...what exactly is this?" I ask.
"Oh it's team photo night and you're the official photographer". :eek:
I'm supposed to take team pictures inside a dimly lit fire hall, along with individual and group photos in fire gear, poses, etc. He's asking ME "okay...what poses do you want, where do you want us?"
Way, WAYYY out of my comfort zone and skill level, I don't have the proper gear. No lighting, no softboxes, not to mention I'm no artist when it comes to posing etc.
Oh did I mention this was all expected for free? (btw, it came on the heels of him asking if I could tile the team's showers for free too)

Am I a sucker?

I did my best last night, but it only solidified my suspicions that being a "photographer" is more than just taking a picture with a fancy camera. I now have many hours ahead of myself in PP and hopefully not embarrass myself.

[Mitsu3000gt]

In my opinion you charge when you're confident in your abilities to deliver consistent results in the area(s) you specialize in, and are comfortable with being held accountable if you fuck it up (often you have only one opportunity to capture certain things, like weddings for example). If you do work for free and are honest about your abilities and experience, nobody has the right to be upset with the results.

If you're going to charge, you should also have the appropriate gear to do the job in a variety of shooting conditions, or be prepared to rent the necessary gear (and be familiar with how to use it).

The situation you described doesn't seem that fair to me, sounds like you got railroaded. It's to nobody's advantage if they aren't clear about the job and you show up unprepared. And they wanted free tile too? That seems a bit much - free work should be offered, not expected IMHO. Most people don't work for free.

One thing I have noticed is people assume that all you need is a professional looking camera and it automatically gets amazing pictures. A lot of people also only ever see final results, so they have no idea what kind of PP work goes on, and it further bolsters their thinking that their friend's big camera takes amazing pictures. Maybe they just assumed it would be super easy, so why not ask Dave? He's got a nice camera. Unfortunately this goes both ways, and Kijiji is full of people who don't have a clue how to be a photographer, but they dropped $1000 on a DSLR and a kit lens so they start shooting weddings for $500.

[gogreen]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
Maybe they just assumed it would be super easy, so why not ask Dave? He's got a nice camera.

I could see that happening. A lot of people do see hiring a photographer as akin to renting a high-resolution camera along with a button-pusher. They likely aren't aware of the amount of work you're putting into it.

Agreed that they have no basis for complaint if they're not happy with the results. You were definitely placed in an unfair situation here.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[blitz]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
In my opinion you charge when you're confident in your abilities to deliver consistent results in the area(s) you specialize in, and are comfortable with being held accountable if you fuck it up (often you have only one opportunity to capture certain things, like weddings for example). If you do work for free and are honest about your abilities and experience, nobody has the right to be upset with the results.

If you're going to charge, you should also have the appropriate gear to do the job in a variety of shooting conditions, or be prepared to rent the necessary gear (and be familiar with how to use it).

The situation you described doesn't seem that fair to me, sounds like you got railroaded. It's to nobody's advantage if they aren't clear about the job and you show up unprepared. And they wanted free tile too? That seems a bit much - free work should be offered, not expected IMHO. Most people don't work for free.

One thing I have noticed is people assume that all you need is a professional looking camera and it automatically gets amazing pictures. A lot of people also only ever see final results, so they have no idea what kind of PP work goes on, and it further bolsters their thinking that their friend's big camera takes amazing pictures. Maybe they just assumed it would be super easy, so why not ask Dave? He's got a nice camera. Unfortunately this goes both ways, and Kijiji is full of people who don't have a clue how to be a photographer, but they dropped $1000 on a DSLR and a kit lens so they start shooting weddings for $500.

Yup, that was a dick move by the coach. At the very least he should have explained what he was actually looking for in that first conversation so you knew what the hell was expected.

But honestly, you shouldn't get paid for that sort of job at the level your at. I don't mean to be a dick because there's nothing wrong with your photos at all, but IMO you need some solid off camera lighting experience under your belt before attempting something like this. Call this some nerve wracking experience and a valuable lesson of always asking for details when someone asks you to come over and shoot a few photos.

So many people get a nice camera and get WAY too much confidence right away. There's a lot of really shitty professional photographers out there, let alone kijiji "pros" that have been shooting for a few months.

[Hallowed_point]

I agree, dick move by the couch. Seems like a slimy move to get someone to agree to something with the understanding of it being a casual , take a few snaps while you can and hang out arrangement. Oh surprise!! You're now the official photographer. And the free tile thing on top of it all? Fuck him and his bullshit, sounds like a classic user/loser. ;)

[TomcoPDR]

At some point in life, I'm sure we've all done this type of thing to someone or had it done to us; intentionally or unintentionally (over stayed our welcome, sounds like couch got impression to test his levels with you)

Perfect way to shave off a connection/organization IMO.

I don't think you're a sucker for being tricked (false advertising) going for the FIRSF and hopefully your LAST time. Obviously would answer differently if this was v2.0 post of the same situation with the same peeps.

[taemo]

definitely dick move from the coach, if your pictures turned out usable. you should forward the coach an invoice for the work you've done.
your time and gear aren't free.

the moment people ask me to take pictures and it's not on my schedule, automatic charge, specially portraits or weddings', although occasionally if im itching to shoot, i would do it for free or at least half the price but only if I know the person.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt

One thing I have noticed is people assume that all you need is a professional looking camera and it automatically gets amazing pictures. A lot of people also only ever see final results, so they have no idea what kind of PP work goes on, and it further bolsters their thinking that their friend's big camera takes amazing pictures. Maybe they just assumed it would be super easy, so why not ask Dave? He's got a nice camera. Unfortunately this goes both ways, and Kijiji is full of people who don't have a clue how to be a photographer, but they dropped $1000 on a DSLR and a kit lens so they start shooting weddings for $500.
^Nailed it.



Originally posted by Sugarphreak
Guess it depends… if the entire team runs on volunteer work to operate, than as part of that team, they may call on people involved to provide free services from time to time. Could be labour, could be use of vehicles, could be taking photos. I really don’t see anything wrong with that. You coming out and taking some pictures seems pretty easy compared to some of the other tasks that a team might need. It also means that funds don’t have to be sourced for a photographer to come in, which probably keeps costs for everybody down. On the other hand if the coaches and staff are all paid and nobody volunteers, I’d say they could also pay for your services.


Not talking about your specific situation, but I find photographers are overly entitled when it comes to this stuff. I can think of other groups and organizations I’ve been involved in where everybody involved volunteers their time and resources towards it… then the guy who happens to own a nice camera shows up, and suddenly he wants to get paid for his time. As if his resources and time are somehow a level above everybody else’s labour and resources. I have no issue at all if a group/organization wants to hire a photographer… but it grinds my gears when a participant who is fully benefiting from everybody else’s time and effort, turns around and wants to charge everybody for his.
I agree with this post. And that's why I don't mind volunteering the little skills I DO have and my services for things like on ice stuff. When I see them make a donation cheque presentation from a major team sponsor and they've got the timekeeper out there with their smart phone taking photos...I think "Hey I can help with that". And I would never expect to be paid for what I do. But an entire location photo shoot....*gulp*. Lets just say it was a good learning experience.

But they DO have an operating budget. Coaching and training staff is a paid position. Albeit a fraction what most of the teams have. Okotoks Oilers for example operate on a yearly budget of over $1.2 million dollars. But they also have the gate receipts to cover that. Canucks are around $350,000 and are always in the red. The Grande Prairie Storm are about to fold, so many teams are on a shoestring budget.

I'm just hoping to sell a few $10 prints off my smugmug site and I'd be happy.

:D


Originally posted by blitz


But honestly, you shouldn't get paid for that sort of job at the level your at. I don't mean to be a dick because there's nothing wrong with your photos at all, but IMO you need some solid off camera lighting experience under your belt before attempting something like this. Call this some nerve wracking experience and a valuable lesson of always asking for details when someone asks you to come over and shoot a few photos.
Nope, not being a dick at all. Very accurate. If I had known what was entailed I would have said straight up "this is above my skill level". Hell I'm still learning how to shoot with my EX430 as a remote. Lighting is a whole sphere I'm just beginning to start learning about.

[NoPulp]

That would have been a horrible situation.

Whenever I get asked or offer to do pictures I make it very clear that my work isn't professional and is purely for practice. People understand that and it doesn't put as much pressure on you.

I am curious what people do when someone insisted on payment? I wouldn't know what I would do.


Another situation I am coming across is doing photography at work... I haven't done much so far, but they seem to be more interested in me taking pictures with my camera at installation sites (while I'm at the same time doing my normal job). It also seems like there's possibility to eventually send me to places to mainly just to do pictures (locally and afar like California). So far I haven't had a problem doing it since I like it and think its cool to sort of get paid to do photography (during work time)... but I use my own personal equipment and since my work computer doesn't have my editing stuff (computer, monitor, program subscription) I usually take it home and bring it back the next day. How should I handle this situation? Maybe just charge my extra time editing? Or just be happy with the practice and time out of the office?

Sorry, don't mean to thread jack.



Another thing I've noticed is what people actually get paid to do... some "professional work" I look at doesn't look any better than what I could do and is shot using similar equipment. I personally would feel horrible asking for a large amount of money.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[msommers]

The phrase "don't be left standing with your dick in your hand" comes to mind. What a gongshow of a situation the coach put you in.

Personally, I'm starting to charge for anything, and if I don't know the situation well enough I decide if I'll do it for experience or bother wasting my time. I feel like charging for things sets a tone: you provide a quality service for a price - end of story. If you can't provide a quality service, don't expect money either.

I'm so incredibly jaded giving away my work to friends for free, volunteering my time for "a small job, 10 minutes tops" etc because I have the confidence and now the sense to realize when I'm getting taken advantage of, rather than excited someone likes my photos. I don't want to go on a big rant here so I'll save it lol.

Bottom line, follow Blitz's advice.

[Go4Long]

The whole situation sucks, but it's good learning for next time anyone else calls up. Whenever someone calls or messages me and asks about taking pictures for them I ask for as many details as possible...what their expectations are, what they're hoping to do with the end result, how long they're going to want me for...and in situations like you're describing where what they're looking for isn't something I'm interested in providing I'll turn them away. If it's something that I'd like to try but haven't done before I make it clear what my situation is and what I'm bringing to the table.

As for the initial question of when to charge, I charge whenever their benefit outweighs mine. If they're looking for a couple snaps for Facebook and I'm doing it to try something new that's a fair deal. If they're looking for prints then I'll charge for my time...maybe not a lot, but something that shows that my time isn't free.

In terms of your situation where the circumstances changed once you were there, I would have pulled the coach aside and explained that this wasn't what you thought it would be, and wasn't something you'd be willing to do free of charge due to the time and effort you were providing. See if he comes to the table with an offer of SOME form of compensation. Remember that compensation doesn't have to be monetary...perhaps he could provide you with an opportunity to shoot something you would like to shoot but wouldn't normally be able to. It's a fire hall right? They've got lots of fun toys that could make for some super fun photographic opportunities.

Depending on where you're at with it in terms of giving them images you could still use it as an opportunity to see where you stand. Put the images on your site in a gallery where the downloads are 10 bucks each, and burn a disc of them as well. Go see the coach and say hey, I did this favour for you, I'm wondering if you could do me a favour and some evening at sunset could we pull one of the pumper trucks out and soak down the driveway, turn all the lights on and get some really cool reflection shots? (Or insert something that you want them to do for you) if he sounds super pumped to turn it in to a mutually beneficial situation great give him the disc...if not, he's not doing you any good anyway, give him the link to the gallery and cut the ties.

[Sorath]

Originally posted by TomcoPDR
At some point in life, I'm sure we've all done this type of thing to someone or had it done to us; intentionally or unintentionally (over stayed our welcome, sounds like couch got impression to test his levels with you)

Perfect way to shave off a connection/organization IMO.

I don't think you're a sucker for being tricked (false advertising) going for the FIRSF and hopefully your LAST time. Obviously would answer differently if this was v2.0 post of the same situation with the same peeps.

I think he nailed it here dave :bigpimp:

[MrSector9]

To me you should be paid when you have to meet expectations of a client. If you are out there for YOU and submit photos because you enjoy doing it, it is a hobby. When you are put into a position that you were put in and out of your comfort zone as there HAS to be quality that will be judged by others that should be the point you get paid wether your an amateur or not.


As for the sucker part, the answer is yes you are, but the reason is not ignorance, it is because your a genuinely nice guy and your first thought is not "what can i benefit from this" where alot of others think that way.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by MrSector9
As for the sucker part, the answer is yes you are, but the reason is not ignorance, it is because your a genuinely nice guy and your first thought is not "what can i benefit from this" where alot of others think that way.

Thank you for that thought. That truly was my first thought when he asked. "Sure I'd be happy to help you out". And then walked into something that was clearly out of my skill level.

I still don't expect any remuneration, but I will make sure I know what it is a person is asking before I say "yes".

Ironically I just found out they ARE doing official team photos in full gear by a hired professional photographer at the arena. *whew*!!

Here's the results of that night: https://davewatling.smugmug.com/Canucks-Firehall