Retail Location for a Cafe in Calgary

[zimba]

Hi,

We are three partners who are looking to bring in an international chain of cafe to Calgary - we understand that market is in recession and it will be hard to start a new business.

However we are eyeing Mission area and 17th Ave SW as possible locations for opening of the first store in Alberta.

Do you guys have any idea how much would be he rent as we have noticed that base rent is around $45-50 with additional Op Costs as $15 making it anywhere in the range of $60-65 a sq foot. Basing on the assumption that we are looking for 1500 sq feet space this becomes annual rent of $90k to $97k.

Do you think is it a good idea to invest in Calgary or should we wait and see?

Any and all insights will be great! Thanks a bunch!

[dirtsniffer]

Open up one of these and you'll do great

http://people.com/celebrity/topless-coffee-shops-the-bikini-baristas-of-washington/

[msommers]

Aspen Woods shopping area is where I'd personally open a cafe. Lots of money in the area, lots of stay at homes and the only competition are two Starbucks literally across from each other.

Hillhurst needs a replacement since the place that was there before got shutdown because the landlords sold the property - she was in there 20 years apparently. Same reasons as above except there isn't a single cafe in the area for awhile to compete with.

Mission I think would be a tough go, especially in that main area (although by the Safeway might be better). You'd be in direct competition with Phil and Sebs - a high-end cafe here in Calgary with long established brand recognition.

Can't help with commercial costs.

[HomespunLobster]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer
Open up one of these and you'll do great

http://people.com/celebrity/topless-coffee-shops-the-bikini-baristas-of-washington/

“The problem wasn’t as much what they saw, it was having to explain to my 8-, 7- and 5-year-old kids why there are women without shirts on serving coffee and why there are men in line to get this coffee,”

What about when you drive your kid past a beach? A park where women walk around in bikini tops?

I'd probably start drinking coffee if a shop like this opened up

[HiTempguy1]

Really? You are that hard up to oggle some tits?

Its like going to Hooters or the Tilted Kilt, why? Some mildly good looking chick pays attention to you (because you are paying them) and all of a sudden the food doesn't matter??

Don't get me wrong, I like nice scenery, but seriously.

[Strider]

Originally posted by msommers
Aspen Woods shopping area is where I'd personally open a cafe. Lots of money in the area, lots of stay at homes and the only competition are two Starbucks literally across from each other.

Hillhurst needs a replacement since the place that was there before got shutdown because the landlords sold the property - she was in there 20 years apparently. Same reasons as above except there isn't a single cafe in the area for awhile to compete with.

Mission I think would be a tough go, especially in that main area (although by the Safeway might be better). You'd be in direct competition with Phil and Sebs - a high-end cafe here in Calgary with long established brand recognition.

Can't help with commercial costs.

OP really needs to be more specific about the kind of cafe (or just name the chain). Location/competition really depends on what type of place it is and what distinguishes it (whether it's quick service coffee, sit-down food, cozy atmosphere) - are they after the morning coffee rush and close at 5pm? suburban housewives throughout the day? lunch and dinner service?

Aspen Woods he'll be competing with Ladybug for the suburban housewife dollars.

Hillhurst has Vintage Caffeine Co on 19th and Analog opening a block away in Spring 2017 for coffee, and Dairy Lane for food.

Mission/17th, he'll be competing with Phil & Seb, Analog, Philosafy, Purple Perk for coffee, and a million other places for food.

Maybe Bridgeland? They have tons of breakfast/brunch options and a Starbucks - also Baya Rica and Lukes Drug Mart, but maybe room for a cafe?

[dirtsniffer]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1
Really? You are that hard up to oggle some tits?

Its like going to Hooters or the Tilted Kilt, why? Some mildly good looking chick pays attention to you (because you are paying them) and all of a sudden the food doesn't matter??

Don't get me wrong, I like nice scenery, but seriously.

Don't worry, the article mentions that there is another shop with male staff..

[msommers]

Wow had no idea there was a place in Hillhurst now, that's fantastic. Looks really nice, have you been??

[A790]

Originally posted by zimba

Do you think is it a good idea to invest in Calgary or should we move to other provinces which are doing well like BC and start business there?
Is that a serious question?

[max_boost]

Do you or any of your partners have any experience in operating a business or any previous serving/hospitality work etc. ?

Or you guys just happen to have 3-500k laying around and want to give it a shot?

Either way good luck. :thumbsup:

[ee2k]

While it seems like 17/Mission is saturated, every new coffee shop that opens finds a way to amass a following and consistent traffic. The only exception I have seen is Cafe Artigiano which was not hip enough and was way overpriced.

In Mission, on 4th alone, we have Phil & Sebastian, Starbucks, Boulangerie, Savour (I don't know why this one is still in business,) Purple Perk, Mercato. Second cup has taken up that corner on 17 and 4.

17 Avenue has a slew of coffee shops, including newest one which is Philosophy that seems to be doing well. Rosso is also opening up closer to Macleod on 17, a quieter area that'll develop in time.

[zimba]

Originally posted by Strider


OP really needs to be more specific about the kind of cafe (or just name the chain). Location/competition really depends on what type of place it is and what distinguishes it (whether it's quick service coffee, sit-down food, cozy atmosphere) - are they after the morning coffee rush and close at 5pm? suburban housewives throughout the day? lunch and dinner service?

Aspen Woods he'll be competing with Ladybug for the suburban housewife dollars.

Hillhurst has Vintage Caffeine Co on 19th and Analog opening a block away in Spring 2017 for coffee, and Dairy Lane for food.

Mission/17th, he'll be competing with Phil & Seb, Analog, Philosafy, Purple Perk for coffee, and a million other places for food.

Maybe Bridgeland? They have tons of breakfast/brunch options and a Starbucks - also Baya Rica and Lukes Drug Mart, but maybe room for a cafe?

We were thinking of Mission area primarily to attract some of the offices and then with few other bigger brands coming up there will be more traffic as with Five Guys, Blaze Pizza.

The cafe that we are opening up is more like hybrid between Costa Coffee and Panera Bread company.

It will be QSR, with sit in option for variety of zone options including counter, benches, cozy fire place, and communal table for a total capacity of around 40-50 in the cafe - design / aesthetics like Al Forno . I see more direct competition in Mission/4th Street area in La Boulangerie (near Safeway) as opposed to Purple Perk.

However, as it be unique international brand therefore we were hoping that people who know this brand a bit would come for food and coffee from other parts of the city albeit after 6:00pm, as we plan to keep it open from 6:00am till 10:00 or maybe 11:00 if that is the time big gun players like Five Guys, and Blaze Pizza plan to open in that area.

Phil & Seb is a good quality cafe with great coffee, and Starbucks will always be there on any good location in North America, hence we believe that it's always better to operate in an area with some competition rather than no competition as in the first place there could be reason why no one moved to that place.

[zimba]

Originally posted by ee2k
While it seems like 17/Mission is saturated, every new coffee shop that opens finds a way to amass a following and consistent traffic. The only exception I have seen is Cafe Artigiano which was not hip enough and was way overpriced.

In Mission, on 4th alone, we have Phil & Sebastian, Starbucks, Boulangerie, Savour (I don't know why this one is still in business,) Purple Perk, Mercato. Second cup has taken up that corner on 17 and 4.

17 Avenue has a slew of coffee shops, including newest one which is Philosophy that seems to be doing well. Rosso is also opening up closer to Macleod on 17, a quieter area that'll develop in time.

Cafe Artigiano's failure is interesting one - as they closed 4 of their stores at the same time, two in Calgary, one in Vancouver, and one (only one they had) in Toronto. Something seems fishy about that - no?

Our strategy was to attract more office, young execs and housewife crowd from 6:00am till 6:00pm and then by offering unique niche products attract more crowd from around the city based on it's international appeal.

We are looking at a place that Koob has recently closed - but they are charging $60 a foot (Rent plus Op Costs) - so this makes us a little nervous.

Although two of us have previous experience and know the game inside out - but still it's a lot of money that we are putting in to create a unique cafe - first time product offering in Canada.

I can assure that the Coffee and Tea that we will be bringing will be breath of fresh air for Calgary market and they will be of quite high quality.

Still we felt that 524 on 17th Ave was the best suited place for our concept (next to Ox and Angela) but since that space is not available anymore we want to know options from end users in Calgary.

[nzwasp]

Quarry Park!

Lots of companies (read consumers) but only one starbucks occupying the area. Tim Hortons and mcdonalds are both atleast a 5min drive to get to.

[mr2mike]

polling beyond for research.
Awesome business plan.

[R-Audi]

Best piece of advice.. get a well seasoned retail broker to help you with your search. Not only will they have an in on locations and preferable sizes and layouts, they will also help you put together a business plan and pitch for the landlord. They will also have an idea of furture growth plans for other chains. (Previously I worked in Leasing for a landlord..retail and office product)

Few other comments:

-Artigiano is currently going through bankruptcy proceedings. All current locations will be sold off. They closed the slower locations in which the Landlords wouldnt provide a discount on rent. They were slow to react to trends and the owner was difficult to deal with.

-Old Koob space on 4th is a dead zone. PASS. One end of 4th is busy.. then 17th is busy.. middle area is still in growth.

-Pay special attention to the layout of your business... it will make or break you.

[zimba]

Originally posted by nzwasp
Quarry Park!

Lots of companies (read consumers) but only one starbucks occupying the area. Tim Hortons and mcdonalds are both atleast a 5min drive to get to.

Thanks for the suggestion - Will look into that area as well - it always helps to get as much info as possible - as it enables to reflect better.

The company that works for our product identified the following:

1. Mission - 4th Street
2. Marda Loop
3. Aspen Landing
4. Upcoming Springbank Hill area

Today, I thought should ask for perspective of some people here too - as it gave us two options (Quarry Park and Bridgeland) to put forward to the company doing business research - I think it wouldn't hurt to see what they say.

[ee2k]

Originally posted by zimba


Cafe Artigiano's failure is interesting one - as they closed 4 of their stores at the same time, two in Calgary, one in Vancouver, and one (only one they had) in Toronto. Something seems fishy about that - no?

Our strategy was to attract more office, young execs and housewife crowd from 6:00am till 6:00pm and then by offering unique niche products attract more crowd from around the city based on it's international appeal.

We are looking at a place that Koob has recently closed - but they are charging $60 a foot (Rent plus Op Costs) - so this makes us a little nervous.

Although two of us have previous experience and know the game inside out - but still it's a lot of money that we are putting in to create a unique cafe - first time product offering in Canada.

I can assure that the Coffee and Tea that we will be bringing will be breath of fresh air for Calgary market and they will be of quite high quality.

Still we felt that 524 on 17th Ave was the best suited place for our concept (next to Ox and Angela) but since that space is not available anymore we want to know options from end users in Calgary.

I like your concept. I dislike the Koob side of the street on 4th. Many businesses on that side don't thrive, that's been my observation. Same goes for south side of 17 Avenue. I sometimes think it might be due to the lack of sunshine. You need parking for the housewives that drive down from Mount Royal (they drive Ranger Rovers,) patio setting for the Missionites that wander on a weekend morning and park their dogs as they indulge in coffee and pastries.

On any given day where I crave something quick or a grab and go in Mission area, I'm limited to Purple Perk for a sandwich (if they have not run out, and service with attitude) or have to drive down 17 to find something to pickup and go. Famoso has been good also, but can't eat pizza all the time. I'm excited about 5 Guys as an option, but something else like what I think you're offering also has a place for it - especially since it'll also cater to health conscious, busy can't-cook-at-home lifestyle.

Artigiano, from what I understand, did a midnight move. They are known to be overpriced. Their location in Mission was too big, seemed like a bingo hall and was just out of place. It lacked character and the intimate settings that Calgarians in the area are getting accustomed to when it comes to coffee shops.

[zimba]

Originally posted by R-Audi
Best piece of advice.. get a well seasoned retail broker to help you with your search. Not only will they have an in on locations and preferable sizes and layouts, they will also help you put together a business plan and pitch for the landlord. They will also have an idea of furture growth plans for other chains. (Previously I worked in Leasing for a landlord..retail and office product)

Few other comments:

-Artigiano is currently going through bankruptcy proceedings. All current locations will be sold off. They closed the slower locations in which the Landlords wouldnt provide a discount on rent. They were slow to react to trends and the owner was difficult to deal with.

-Old Koob space on 4th is a dead zone. PASS. One end of 4th is busy.. then 17th is busy.. middle area is still in growth.

-Pay special attention to the layout of your business... it will make or break you.

Design aspect will be from top notch design firm in Alberta who has designed types like Fork & Salad, Al Forno, NoTable, Model Milk, Trolley 5, Analog Cafe

So you think opposite to Koob where Five Guys is opening will be good option - if the space can be reduced in Artigiano's place then do you think with top notch designer that is better option than 6th Street 17th Ave SW and also 12th Street 17th Ave SW )next to Khao San)?

Sent you a pm - whenever you have time please respond!

[zimba]

Originally posted by ee2k


I like your concept. I dislike the Koob side of the street on 4th. Many businesses on that side don't thrive, that's been my observation. Same goes for south side of 17 Avenue. I sometimes think it might be due to the lack of sunshine. You need parking for the housewives that drive down from Mount Royal (they drive Ranger Rovers,) patio setting for the Missionites that wander on a weekend morning and park their dogs as they indulge in coffee and pastries.

On any given day where I crave something quick or a grab and go in Mission area, I'm limited to Purple Perk for a sandwich (if they have not run out, and service with attitude) or have to drive down 17 to find something to pickup and go. Famoso has been good also, but can't eat pizza all the time. I'm excited about 5 Guys as an option, but something else like what I think you're offering also has a place for it - especially since it'll also cater to health conscious, busy can't-cook-at-home lifestyle.

Artigiano, from what I understand, did a midnight move. They are known to be overpriced. Their location in Mission was too big, seemed like a bingo hall and was just out of place. It lacked character and the intimate settings that Calgarians in the area are getting accustomed to when it comes to coffee shops.

Good info and perspective. Thank you so much- means a lot as we are quite passionate about this project and any info that we can get from residents of the area is highly valuable.

Thanks ee2k!

[Marsh]

What brand are you bringing?

[nzwasp]

Originally posted by zimba


Thanks for the suggestion - Will look into that area as well - it always helps to get as much info as possible - as it enables to reflect better.

The company that works for our product identified the following:

1. Mission - 4th Street
2. Marda Loop
3. Aspen Landing
4. Upcoming Springbank Hill area

Today, I thought should ask for perspective of some people here too - as it gave us two options (Quarry Park and Bridgeland) to put forward to the company doing business research - I think it wouldn't hurt to see what they say.

Hmm I live in Springbank Hill and the only areas where we have shops that do not have coffee or anything is in montreux which is the part of springbankhill that i live in. Would be good if there was a coffee place there I just don't know how much business it would get on a regular basis - then again ladybug which is in aspen is packed all the time I go in there and that too is away from the main part of aspen landing.

Montreux Shoppes which is what I presume they are referring too has a very busy yoga / fitness place; a dance studio, taekwondo studio all on the upper level. And then the bottom level has a couple of medical type shops a daycare, liquor store and Indian restaurant. I don't think there is any lease space other than maybe one part of lower level that hasn't been developed.


Originally posted by Marsh
What brand are you bringing?

He wont tell us that because new business ventures get nervous that their brand/idea will be stolen before they get setup.

If its high quality coffee then its unlikely to be something like dunkin donuts.

[ercchry]

Instead of trying to compete with established brands in completely gentrified areas, I would try to find a location in an up and coming area, that already is becoming trending... like Ramsey, Inglewood, or to a lesser extent the east village (EV already has big money dumped into it)

Personally I'd look at the east end of 9th Ave in inglewood. The west end has a couple cafes including a Starbucks, but the east does not. Future development includes new mixed retail/multi-res and transforming the truckstop into a grocery store, haven't looked in a while but commercial rent was much cheaper in inglewood than mardaloop/Kensington/mission/17th and has very good day time foot traffic

[zimba]

Originally posted by nzwasp


Hmm I live in Springbank Hill and the only areas where we have shops that do not have coffee or anything is in montreux which is the part of springbankhill that i live in. Would be good if there was a coffee place there I just don't know how much business it would get on a regular basis - then again ladybug which is in aspen is packed all the time I go in there and that too is away from the main part of aspen landing.

Montreux Shoppes which is what I presume they are referring too has a very busy yoga / fitness place; a dance studio, taekwondo studio all on the upper level. And then the bottom level has a couple of medical type shops a daycare, liquor store and Indian restaurant. I don't think there is any lease space other than maybe one part of lower level that hasn't been developed.



He wont tell us that because new business ventures get nervous that their brand/idea will be stolen before they get setup.

If its high quality coffee then its unlikely to be something like dunkin donuts.

:)

You got it !

The upcoming area will be 8529 - 17th Avenue S.W., Calgary, Alberta just south of Aspen Landing but it will be developed I guess by Q1 2019.

[zimba]

Originally posted by ercchry
Instead of trying to compete with established brands in completely gentrified areas, I would try to find a location in an up and coming area, that already is becoming trending... like Ramsey, Inglewood, or to a lesser extent the east village (EV already has big money dumped into it)

Personally I'd look at the east end of 9th Ave in inglewood. The west end has a couple cafes including a Starbucks, but the east does not. Future development includes new mixed retail/multi-res and transforming the truckstop into a grocery store, haven't looked in a while but commercial rent was much cheaper in inglewood than mardaloop/Kensington/mission/17th and has very good day time foot traffic

Thanks - will definitely look at these areas again!

[nzwasp]

Originally posted by zimba


:)

You got it !

The upcoming area will be 8529 - 17th Avenue S.W., Calgary, Alberta just south of Aspen Landing but it will be developed I guess by Q1 2019.

Oh well in that case that area will be completely new. They are looking to put alot of houses and even condo buildings in there and also if they ever extend the train line then it will be pretty close to that spot as well.

So yeah that would be great once all that residential housing is done however its not the most convienient walk for anyone currently to that spot.

[lasimmon]

Artigiano might be the worst coffee I have ever had in my life.

My only contribution to this thread.

[Cdog]

Have you considered Kensington? There are several new condo being completed right now. They have a hard time to locate commercial tenants on the ground level. The area definitely need a new high-end coffee shop especially with increasing density.

[R-Audi]

Replied to your PM...

As for other areas:

-Inglewood is dicey... major chains arent accepted very easily.
-Springbank/SW-Could do very well...
-Bridgeland-I like it... cheap rent, (most are in the 20s) up and coming neighborhood
-Mission/17th--already well established, lots of competition
-Kensignton is nice as well, rent will be high. (less than mission/17h though)


As for Artigiano, they did indeed pull midnight moves from their Britannia and 4th St locations.. Very stupid move. Always better to have discussion with Landlord before doing that, as they go straight to their lawyer.

[XylathaneGTR]

Originally posted by Cdog
Have you considered Kensington? There are several new condo being completed right now. They have a hard time to locate commercial tenants on the ground level. The area definitely need a new high-end coffee shop especially with increasing density.
There's like 8 coffee shops in this hood already man, and a few of them are already struggling (one closed about a year ago...the House, where Burger320 or whatever is now). The last thing Kensington needs is another cafe/coffee shop (unless you're opening a cat cafe...if so, kensington is the best spot for it).

I like Ercchy's suggestion of the east-end of inglewood/9th ave (but not too far down, because that strip is only like 5 blocks long). You have Gravity and Starbucks on the west end but there's pretty much nothing down 9th, and they just thew in a new Condo down that side didn't they?

[TheCheff]

Originally posted by ercchry
Instead of trying to compete with established brands in completely gentrified areas, I would try to find a location in an up and coming area, that already is becoming trending... like Ramsey, Inglewood, or to a lesser extent the east village (EV already has big money dumped into it)

Personally I'd look at the east end of 9th Ave in inglewood. The west end has a couple cafes including a Starbucks, but the east does not. Future development includes new mixed retail/multi-res and transforming the truckstop into a grocery store, haven't looked in a while but commercial rent was much cheaper in inglewood than mardaloop/Kensington/mission/17th and has very good day time foot traffic

There is now a Rosso's on the east side of 9th Ave. at 13th St. in Inglewood, I guess you could go to the east side of blackfoot but that area isn't the greatest. I do think Ramsey is an excellent idea, that area is going to be booming soon, maybe somewhere near Reds. There are alot of cool brick buildings that would house a nice cafe.

Mission/4th St. is jam packed with Coffee shops there is a lot of competition in that area as well as 17th Ave. (P & S, Purple Perk, Analog, 2 x Waves, Starbucks, Second Cup etc...)

[Xtrema]

4th and Mission is saturated indeed. But I do love the Perk for their food.

Starbucks may not be your competition but there are 4 of them within 1km of 17th Ave/4th St.

[Minimalist]

You're selling coffee and tea, not a cure for cancer. Another chain cafe? Really, who wants it and international means just what in terms of a better experience? I thought all coffee was not from Canada and this is "international". Starbucks is the McDonalds of coffee. Coffee peaked already, so has sushi, so has...

Bring something new to Calgary. How about a child-free cafe?

Marda Loop has two Starbucks, P & S (best), a new Good Earth in 2017, Bell's Bookstore Cafe and Monogram (best) so far. Another cafe will prob go into the large new building across the street from P & S in 2017.

The Dive shop on the corner of 34th ave and 20 street just closed down, for lease in the window. Sunny side of the street.

[Cdog]

Originally posted by XylathaneGTR

There's like 8 coffee shops in this hood already man, and a few of them are already struggling (one closed about a year ago...the House, where Burger320 or whatever is now). The last thing Kensington needs is another cafe/coffee shop (unless you're opening a cat cafe...if so, kensington is the best spot for it).

I like Ercchy's suggestion of the east-end of inglewood/9th ave (but not too far down, because that strip is only like 5 blocks long). You have Gravity and Starbucks on the west end but there's pretty much nothing down 9th, and they just thew in a new Condo down that side didn't they?

True. However, you have to differentiate yourself anywhere you want to open a coffee. What kensington is missing right now is a high-end specialty coffee shop. What they have right now is Startbucks, Secondcup, HigherGround, and Tim's.

[msommers]

Originally posted by Cdog


True. However, you have to differentiate yourself anywhere you want to open a coffee. What kensington is missing right now is a high-end specialty coffee shop. What they have right now is Startbucks, Secondcup, HigherGround, and Tim's.

While I definitely agree the coffee selection of good, high-quality coffee is lacking in the area (Vendome aside), if Analog or Phil & Sebs haven't moved in the area by now, it makes me wonder if there's more to the picture. Rent has got to be insane in Kensington.

[zimba]

That's true rents are still insane in any area that we are currently looking at anywhere between base at $43-44 and Op Costs around another $18-25. So any location of 1500 sq feet becomes insanely expensive for a new business.

Cheaper spaces are cheap for a reason and higher end spaces with a lot of visibility are in the range of $60 - $70 (base + Op Costs).

Will be researching a bit more about the location & space (along with design) - as that is make or break in cafe business.

[NoPulp]

No idea what services your company will provide, but skip Calgary and invest in Lethbridge :)
Besides Tim Hortons and Starbucks, I can only think of a couple "classy" cafes which are located fairly close together in the downtown area.

Economy is pretty steady here. We may not benefit from the full affects of booms, but we also don't really feel the busts.

[A790]

Originally posted by NoPulp
No idea what services your company will provide, but skip Calgary and invest in Lethbridge :)
Besides Tim Hortons and Starbucks, I can only think of a couple "classy" cafes which are located fairly close together in the downtown area.

Economy is pretty steady here. We may not benefit from the full affects of booms, but we also don't really feel the busts.
There's also nobody in Lethbridge ;)

[riander5]

I don't drink coffee. Whats all the hype about

[msommers]

The Penny in Lethbridge is always busy and not even remotely close to high-end, which may be to they are always busy (although their coffee is pure garbage [sorry!] compared to Analog or Phil-Sebs). It's hard to say if the people of Lethbridge would embrace a high-end place or if they would even enjoy the...pretentiousness...of high-end coffee like they do in Calgary.

I get the impression whenever I'm there that Lethbridge still has a strong small-town vibe to it despite their size, and may turn up their noses to something seeming uppity.

Whatever the case may be, I think it's the mass transient population of students leaving during the summer that would affect business greatly.

[NoPulp]

Maybe haha. I don't like coffee myself, but I know plenty of coffee snobs. I just don't see much competition in Lethbridge.

The west side would be a good place to invest, its growing at an incredible rate but most the bushiness is downtown or on the south end.
The north may also be a good place, I am biased though. There's not much for food places in the north, but there's a demand. There's also a huge park being built on the north end which I think would drive people up here. If the shop only services coffee, I'm not sure. If the shop is more of a restaurant, i think it could be successful. Original joes is our only option and they do very well.

[ercchry]

OJ's would be a fancy night out for those townies :rofl:

Cheap is the name of the game down there, broke ass students, old retirees, and farm folk rule... with the odd young professional, who isn't getting paid well

It's amazing how not well a lot of things that work well in calgary do down there. Hell even the Blarney Stone shut down and that place use to get packed! ...when they offered cheap wings and pints haha

[ickyflex]

West Springs also has that ACE Diner where you can get Coffee (P&S) to go

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by riander5
I don't drink coffee. Whats all the hype about

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Want%20some%20coffee%3F

[max_boost]

^^^ nice lol

[TYMSMNY]

If you're thinking of opening a "first in Canada" sort of cafe/coffee shop, I'd be hard pressed to open up anywhere but a high traffic, high volume, and high visibility location. You're "international chain of cafe" probably won't ring a bell with most people.

To put up all that capital... franchise fee... possibly a master franchise agreement... it's a one shot kind of move. Big money upfront but between the few of you, should be able to keep a float for awhile.

[speedog]

Originally posted by TYMSMNY
If you're thinking of opening a "first in Canada" sort of cafe/coffee shop, I'd be hard pressed to open up anywhere but a high traffic, high volume, and high visibility location. You're "international chain of cafe" probably won't ring a bell with most people.

To put up all that capital... franchise fee... possibly a master franchise agreement... it's a one shot kind of move. Big money upfront but between the few of you, should be able to keep a float for awhile.

What was the name of that infamous doughnut place that tried and failed in Calgary, Krispy Kreme was it?

[Strider]

Originally posted by msommers
Wow had no idea there was a place in Hillhurst now, that's fantastic. Looks really nice, have you been??
I've been to Vintage Caffeine once. Phil & Seb established their coffee program, but I found that the quality just isn't as good. I think Analog will eat their lunch when they open in spring (if Vintage is still around by then).


Originally posted by zimba
It will be QSR, with sit in option for variety of zone options including counter, benches, cozy fire place, and communal table for a total capacity of around 40-50 in the cafe - design / aesthetics like Al Forno . I see more direct competition in Mission/4th Street area in La Boulangerie (near Safeway) as opposed to Purple Perk.

Sounds awesome. Al Forno is one of my favourite spots right now (both in concept and design). Although I always wonder how they're making a good go at it while Corbeaux failed miserably.


Originally posted by TYMSMNY
If you're thinking of opening a "first in Canada" sort of cafe/coffee shop, I'd be hard pressed to open up anywhere but a high traffic, high volume, and high visibility location. You're "international chain of cafe" probably won't ring a bell with most people.

To put up all that capital... franchise fee... possibly a master franchise agreement... it's a one shot kind of move. Big money upfront but between the few of you, should be able to keep a float for awhile.
On the contrary, I always see franchises opening up in obscure places like Airdrie as test markets before spreading into Calgary - cheaper rent and captive audience. Also, Edmonton is getting Chipotle and Popeye's before Calgary.

[raceman6135]

Sounds a little like Tully's Coffee with regard to the atmosphere and expansion plans. But that's just a WAG.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1
Really? You are that hard up to oggle some tits?

Its like going to Hooters or the Tilted Kilt, why? Some mildly good looking chick pays attention to you (because you are paying them) and all of a sudden the food doesn't matter??

Don't get me wrong, I like nice scenery, but seriously.

Can't believe I'm saying this but....."hear, fucking, hear" lol.

I've never understood the whole Hooter's thing. I always felt stupid going in there. (A grand total of two times in my entire life) Am I supposed to gawk at your boobs and low-slung T-shirt? And if I am, why am I at this place when I can go to the peelers and get a good "eyeful" of the entire thing. And if I want good food, why not go to any of the thousands of other places that serve wings?

Can't believe they still exist.

But as far as the thread goes: Sure...why not open up THE most common business that goes bankrupt during the most distressed time this city has seen since the early 80's.
I'm sure you'll make a ton of money. :thumbsup:

[max_boost]

How about at the ground floor of condo towers? Most towers have built in retail space at street level. I don't imagine that to be cheap.

For example Cafe Blanca at Waterfront appears to be doing quite well. I chatted with Derrick a few times and I believe he operates it with his sister. Everything from paint night to some sort of open mic / hipster stuff going on. :dunno:

[suntan]

Cafe Guile totally beats Cafe Blanca.

[zimba]

We know it's tricky situation in Calgary to start any business, hence the question about the suitability of the timing was asked to get the feel of fellow members.

Having said this; Village Ice Cream has a niche which the owner has carved out very astutely and he is doing so well that he is offered several places to open but he refuses on the grounds that he has hands full.

Monogram is similar story even after P&S and Analog reigning the market of quality coffee loving crowd.

It does make us wonder if we should just shelve the plan for a year or two or just take the plunge as there is always an element of risk when starting a brand new product or service.

On a second note; looked at Quarry Park today as well as Bridgeland - they are very nice areas but need to revisit them again to get better feel at different times of the days.

Was also wondering when Five Guys and Blaze Pizza opening on 4th Street SW and how would they be welcomed in that area that has Flippin Burger and 4Th Street Pizza and Famoso - and with tons of Burger and Pizza joints within a mile's radius.

It has to have certain appeal to enter into current market landscape - coming into this market with flat product or service will definitely be suicidal. The place has to be destination or else it will have a very hard time being successful in current market conditions albeit forecasts of Alberta economy for 2017 is most promising amongst all provinces if we are to go with RBC, Scotia and Conference Board reports - that makes me wonder if there is any city in Canada that is conducive for starting a business or not which is THE most common business in the world as put by fellow members.

[TomcoPDR]

Would this work? http://www.kijiji.ca/v-business-industrial/alberta/48-seat-dt-coffee-shop/c239004?channelId=208

[zimba]

Originally posted by TomcoPDR
Would this work? http://www.kijiji.ca/v-business-industrial/alberta/48-seat-dt-coffee-shop/c239004?channelId=208

Thanks for the suggestion - but I think that this location will not work as product and service positioning is for a totally different clientele.

[TYMSMNY]

Sorry, is this an "international chain" or a "brand new product or service"?

If you're working with an international chain, i'm sure they've got brokers that can help you locate spaces that are less than "walk in off the street" rates. better base, better TI, better cams.

[zimba]

Yep ^

[zimba]

Originally posted by Strider

I've been to Vintage Caffeine once. Phil & Seb established their coffee program, but I found that the quality just isn't as good. I think Analog will eat their lunch when they open in spring (if Vintage is still around by then).


Sounds awesome. Al Forno is one of my favourite spots right now (both in concept and design). Although I always wonder how they're making a good go at it while Corbeaux failed miserably.

Corbeaux had too many things going at once, it simply confused the heck out of the consumer of 17th - as mostly establishments there are single or at most two lines of offerings.

DeVille in Bridgeland also failed as that market is not suited for it at this time - maybe 5 years down the line.

Al Forno is well executed as they have attained great segregation and bifurcation of different services - although breakfast, coffee and lunch is what I prefer at Al Forno but drinks and dinner is not their forte.

On the contrary, I always see franchises opening up in obscure places like Airdrie as test markets before spreading into Calgary - cheaper rent and captive audience. Also, Edmonton is getting Chipotle and Popeye's before Calgary.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by zimba

Was also wondering when Five Guys and Blaze Pizza opening on 4th Street SW and how would they be welcomed in that area that has Flippin Burger and 4Th Street Pizza and Famoso - and with tons of Burger and Pizza joints within a mile's radius.

A&W on 17th now has tons of business from kids because it's cheap.

Burger Inn is hanging on I assume it's because low cost where they are.

Clive is lowering prices with $15 Double Burger + Fries + Beer for lunch. So they must be hurting.

Flippin Burger is disgusting.

I will welcome 5 Guys with open arms.

Blaze tho, if they have same offering as Famoso, they are within 3 blocks of each other, so not sure how well that will end up. At least Bocce and Mercato has other stuff beyond Pizza.

Then again, there are 3 Japanese, 3 Vietnamese on 4th and they are all underwhelming and survives. So may be there is room.

[TomcoPDR]

zimba any updates on this coffee venture? This past year (thread started), I’ve noticed retail space available from a combination of existing vacant/vacated businesses, to new strip malls in the process of being built all over the city.

[ExtraSlow]

Rents have gone down in some areas too.

[revelations]

I can tell you that my condo area in Erinwoods, close the industrial park - would have made a great location for a TIm Hortons express, or something similar (small eatery, take out).

https://goo.gl/maps/tmpBxWXpU2B2

High traffic location right off 36st, high visibility and there arent a ton of choices for food in that area. On the plus side, you also have a lot of single people in the evening (condo and Town homes) who could use a quick, walk and get, sandwich etc. We talked about this as a condo board (investing) but in the end nothing became of it.