Coquitlam RCMP investigating after 2 seniors dragged.

[ICEBERG]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/coquitlam-rcmp-officers-1.3827314

2q9bz066Xsk

[C_Dave45]

Act like a 2 year old, get treated like one. :dunno:

That would never happen to me.

[Maxx Mazda]

Yep. Definitely threatened by two 80 year old Chinese people right??

That video pissed me off.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Maxx Mazda
Yep. Definitely threatened by two 80 year old Chinese people right??

That video pissed me off.
Who said anything about being threatened? IF only there was SOME way these two, hopefully intelligent after 80 years of life experience, could have avoided all this...hmmmmmm. Oh I know, when asked to leave by police, they simply leave!! Wow...what a concept. :nut:

Video pissed me off too. Gramma and Grampa needlessly traumatizing their grandaughter and teaching her to fear and not respect police for the rest of her life. Well done.

[G]

So what can the police do when they refuse to leave? Asians love to play the geriatric card all the time.

[revelations]

These seniors are utterly childish and are trying to play the race card. If they tried this behaviour in Mainland China the police would probably just beat them to death.

Having said this, I might have had another member dealing with that retard.

[Projek01]

the elderly couple sound korean.

i see faults with the couple and the RCMP.

1. why cant the old people just cooperate and walk with the police outside.

2. trying to bring someone outside that is acting like dead weight is not easy. if there are three officers, why can't two of them support the old man outside? Officers are either poorly trained or just don't give a eff.

[rx7boi]

Originally posted by C_Dave45
Act like a 2 year old, get treated like one. :dunno:

That would never happen to me.

So what? When is that ever a reason to yank them by the arm and drag a senior down a flight of steps?

[Minimalist]

I blame Trump and condo meetings in general, the trickle down of a rigged election. From Huffington Post:


Victor Kim, who began filming after he heard the granddaughter's screams, said police were called after a voting disagreement among condo owners, reported Daily Hive Vancouver.

He said the elderly woman was trying to prevent tampering of the ballot box when one of the Mounties allegedly blocked her, escalating the situation and angering her husband.

“I don’t think [the officers] were in danger from that couple," Kim told the website. "Maybe they were doing their job, but that was too much.”

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by rx7boi


So what? When is that ever a reason to yank them by the arm and drag a senior down a flight of steps?
When they've been asked repeatedly by the owners of the premise, then by police, and then TOLD by the police to vacate. And then when you act like a two year old and flop down on the ground and hang on like a cat about to be bathed. That's when.
What should the police do? Stand and hold the door open and wait for them to decide on their own? They wouldn't leave, the police have to make them leave.
As I said...pretty easy to avoid the situation. When police tell you to leave...leave! :dunno: Seems pretty simple to me.

If that was mainland China, they probably would have gotten a good beating to boot!

[revelations]

They were lucky that they weren't tased.....lol

Usually pain compliance is enough to get these idiots moving but unsure if that was tried or not.

Regardless, things like this happen on duty all the time. It doesn't matter how old, as long as they are actively resting, the police have a duty to get these idiots on the move - somehow.

People are making this out to be like he was being kicked on the ground; he just let go the railing and slid down the stairs.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by rx7boi


So what? When is that ever a reason to yank them by the arm and drag a senior down a flight of steps?


Originally posted by G
So what can the police do when they refuse to leave? Asians love to play the geriatric card all the time.

And the whole Asian, I''m old and you have to respect me mentality.

On top that, Koreans are crazy. Just check out their riots in 80s and 90s.

I have to say if you are at a Best Western and the manager tell you to leave and you won't, you are trespassing at that point. Now the RCMP could have a bit of better approach than that but given they are nickeled and dimed to death, they probably don't have time for that shit.

[J-hop]

I know it's easy to point fingers but I wonder why they didn't zip tie cuff hands and legs and two officers carry out?

Dragging an elderly person by one arm with the potential to dislocate their shoulder isn't cool no matter what they did.

That being said they probably did some pretty dumb shit for the cops to react like that....

[SOAB]

Originally posted by rx7boi


So what? When is that ever a reason to yank them by the arm and drag a senior down a flight of steps?

you must be one of those millenials that actually believe that you can just disobey a direct order from the cops and get away with it just because you weren't physically threatening them.

these people were told to leave by the owners and by the cops.

[riander5]

Wow lots of sensitive sallys getting their panties in a bunch... Resist the cops, get moved by them makes sense to me

[ickyflex]

These are probably the same people who cross with 1 second left in chinatown and make opposing traffic miss an entire green light because they are entitled.

Don't feel sorry at all

[TomcoPDR]

Originally posted by Xtrema


On top that, Koreans are crazy. Just check out their riots in 80s and 90s.



K-rage can probably bankrupt a nation.

[rx7boi]

Originally posted by SOAB


you must be one of those millenials that actually believe that you can just disobey a direct order from the cops and get away with it just because you weren't physically threatening them.

these people were told to leave by the owners and by the cops.

:rolleyes: We're all so glad you were able to decipher that from simply questioning if it was reasonable, professional, or ethical to use that amount of force on an 80 year old.

I guess everyone else here that doesn't agree with the way they handled it are millennials that don't respect cops right?

Come to think of it, I guess it'd be okay to you guys if they did the same to a 90 year old too because apparently 80 year olds are built like teenagers.

[dirtsniffer]

should they be given special treatment cause of their age?

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer
should they be given special treatment cause of their age?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Offenders_Act

As much as I like say f them. I start to see degeneration of all my parents and their siblings that they are pretty much kids these days.

Just an observation, don't really have an answer.

[dirtsniffer]

Originally posted by Xtrema


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Offenders_Act

As much as I like say, f them. I start to see degeneration of all my parents and their siblings that they are pretty kids these days.

Just an observation, don't really have an answer.

sometimes you sound extra foreign..;)

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer


sometimes you sound extra foreign..;)

Grammar corrected :D

[SOAB]

Originally posted by rx7boi


:rolleyes: We're all so glad you were able to decipher that from simply questioning if it was reasonable, professional, or ethical to use that amount of force on an 80 year old.

I guess everyone else here that doesn't agree with the way they handled it are millennials that don't respect cops right?

Come to think of it, I guess it'd be okay to you guys if they did the same to a 90 year old too because apparently 80 year olds are built like teenagers.

I'm not the one that thinks they should get special treatment because they were able to live longer.

where do we draw the line? how many times does a police officer have to ask you to do something before you must comply? 2? 5? 10? do they need to call a psychiatrist to evaluate your mental health before they are allowed to act?

or should they call these peoples families and wait for them to show up and ask the old fucks to leave?

I saw that one person suggested that they should have called an ambulance so that the paramedics could put them onto a gurney and carry them out... :rofl: that is a great use of our resources!

the language barrier was obviously not an issue in this instance. the issue is that the old people refused to leave after being asked numerous times but the people holding the meeting which required them to call the cops.

if you're old and frail, resisting cops is the last thing you should be doing.

[dirtsniffer]

I remember way back in the day a guy getting punched in the face because his girlfriend was being a total bitch. Would something like that be more appropriate?

[Kloubek]

I see nothing wrong with this.

Do some cops use excessive force? Yes. Is that acceptable? No.

Was this excessive? No. If the cops tell you to leave, you leave. If you have a problem with it, submit an official complaint. It isn't like they were beating on them, and even if they were - perhaps even that could be justified because they were not compliant.

The cops have enough negativity to deal with in their daily tasks, along with increasing negative public opinion about the police in general. The media is doing them no favours.

[max_boost]

lol idiots. probably deserved it :rofl:

[ZenOps]

Don't know that the people asking them to leave had anywhere near the authority to even call the police.

So they wanted to make sure that their vote and everyone elses vote on a condo association was being properly counted. Umm, yeah - so what if there was some form of tampering? Then the people being pushed down the stairs are in the right and the people calling the police are in the wrong. Regardless, its not possible to make that determination at spot of moment.

Trump says that Hillarys voters are not being honest, exactly vice - versa. Does that mean you throw either Trump or Hillary down the stairs because the first guy to get to the phone paints the story in one direction?

With the police so quick to eject one side, did they indeed have the time to open the ballot box and change the vote? Could and does happen all the time in rigged votes. Many politicians use military, natural disasters, police, fire and ambulance as distractions to voterig.

On a side note: Rob Anders was notorious for this, he would use distraction noodles to destroy opponents. Delay paperwork, pull fire alarms, smear dog poop on other peoples legal documents, just long enough to make sure that they would be invalid on some legal technicality, usually a time limit (I'm not sure he ever called police or ambulances on anyone, but would not be surprised)

The Asian couple should have phoned the police on the others and then took the voting box for themselves. Save it for next time I guess.

From what I can tell, the elderly couple simply wanted to visually watch the votes being counted - as is their right in these types of condo meetings.

o2kO_5cNF5k

I'm pretty sure the police will figure out in less than a day that they were being "used as a distraction noodle". And unfortunately for them, legally speaking usually "accounts are settled at the end of the day" or "voting is settled at the end of the day" regardless of any misunderstandings like a voter note being able to submit their vote because it was covered in dog poop.

[revelations]

^ no, the police were there for (presumably) a refuse to leave, which is a criminal offense (trespass/summary conviction).

The event was private and the hosts can ask anyone to leave at any time.

What happened inside the event, is a civil matter (non police).

[Majestic12]

There's such a thing called proportionality. Dragging old people down stairs sure as fuck isn't proportional. Whether the police were entitled to expel them out or not, what they SHOULD have done is waited until they had more people, and carry them out. You know, You can't drag people out like a fuckin' sack of potatoes. People can get seriously hurt by having their head banging against shit. Old people are especially vulnerable.

[BigMass]

I wish that the only people that would qualify for becoming Police Officers were those with PHDs in Psychology. I would love an increase of taxes to cover for this. Hiring steroided out high school football players is not really the way to go anymore in 2017.

[HiTempguy1]

I don't. Anyone in a psychology related field tends to be a fucking retard.

I would much rather have a strong police force that can do its job, then a bunch of whiny pricks with no balls letting people know about trigger warnings.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by Majestic12
There's such a thing called proportionality. Dragging old people down stairs sure as fuck isn't proportional. Whether the police were entitled to expel them out or not, what they SHOULD have done is waited until they had more people, and carry them out. You know, You can't drag people out like a fuckin' sack of potatoes. People can get seriously hurt by having their head banging against shit. Old people are especially vulnerable.

agreed

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by BigMass
I wish that the only people that would qualify for becoming Police Officers were those with PHDs in Psychology. I would love an increase of taxes to cover for this. Hiring steroided out high school football players is not really the way to go anymore in 2017.

agreed. in concept, but then we would have 5 cops instead of 5000.

[SOAB]

Originally posted by Majestic12
There's such a thing called proportionality. Dragging old people down stairs sure as fuck isn't proportional. Whether the police were entitled to expel them out or not, what they SHOULD have done is waited until they had more people, and carry them out. You know, You can't drag people out like a fuckin' sack of potatoes. People can get seriously hurt by having their head banging against shit. Old people are especially vulnerable.

yeah, you can drag idiots out like a sack of potatoes. don't want to get hurt? walk out like an adult when asked, numerous fucking times.

I see 3 officers had responded to the call. how much more public resources do you think should be required for a call of this magnitude? 6 cops? 10? for a trespass/public nuisance call? talk about proportionality...

the public always talks about what the cops SHOULD have done. keyboard heroes that have all the answers and watch too many fucking movies.

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by SOAB


yeah, you can drag idiots out like a sack of potatoes. don't want to get hurt? walk out like an adult when asked, numerous fucking times.

I see 3 officers had responded to the call. how much more public resources do you think should be required for a call of this magnitude? 6 cops? 10? for a trespass/public nuisance call? talk about proportionality...

the public always talks about what the cops SHOULD have done. keyboard heroes that have all the answers and watch too many fucking movies.

This exactly. I am actually quite floored that anybody would actually think that if someone refuses to cooperate that it is the responsibility of the police to bend as a result.

This is called personal responsibility. Cause and effect. This society has become far too PC and pussified.

[revelations]

Originally posted by BigMass
I wish that the only people that would qualify for becoming Police Officers were those with PHDs in Psychology. I would love an increase of taxes to cover for this. Hiring steroided out high school football players is not really the way to go anymore in 2017.

Once you realize the level of intelligence of the average person the Police deal with on a regular basis, you will realize that any Psyc degrees Phd etc. are completely wasted.

I used to serve with members who had degrees in these and it wasn't any different for them.

Dealing with people with a <80 IQ score usually means logic and basic intelligence is lost.

[rx7boi]

Originally posted by SOAB


yeah, you can drag idiots out like a sack of potatoes. don't want to get hurt? walk out like an adult when asked, numerous fucking times.

I see 3 officers had responded to the call. how much more public resources do you think should be required for a call of this magnitude? 6 cops? 10? for a trespass/public nuisance call? talk about proportionality...

the public always talks about what the cops SHOULD have done. keyboard heroes that have all the answers and watch too many fucking movies.

Tone it down there, cowboy. Seems to me you're just as entitled to your opinion as others are theirs.

You came into this thread swinging, using childish rhetoric like "you must be a millenial" in order to undermine opinions :rofl:

Maybe you don't think 80 years is that old or maybe you don't even really give a shit. Judging by how you've responded, you'd probably say the same thing if it was a 95 year old except you've managed to tactfully avoid that assumption.

Guys like you are probably better suited for living in the US. You acknowledge that 3 officers responded to a call yet you can't even fathom a scenario where it doesn't end with dragging him around like a sack of potatoes. You probably wouldn't recognize the difference between discretion and "special treatment" if it hit you in the face. To you, that's just CPS business as usual and it ain't no thang.

Doesn't matter if it's a couple of gangbangers or if it's old folks being difficult as fuck, right?

Y'all get so divisive about these things that you can't even see the grey area. Policing isn't always about being expedient.

[SOAB]

Originally posted by rx7boi


Tone it down there, cowboy. Seems to me you're just as entitled to your opinion as others are theirs.

You came into this thread swinging, using childish rhetoric like &quot;you must be a millenial&quot; in order to undermine opinions :rofl:

Maybe you don't think 80 years is that old or maybe you don't even really give a shit. Judging by how you've responded, you'd probably say the same thing if it was a 95 year old except you've managed to tactfully avoid that assumption.

Guys like you are probably better suited for living in the US. You acknowledge that 3 officers responded to a call yet you can't even fathom a scenario where it doesn't end with dragging him around like a sack of potatoes. You probably wouldn't recognize the difference between discretion and &quot;special treatment&quot; if it hit you in the face. To you, that's just CPS business as usual and it ain't no thang.

Doesn't matter if it's a couple of gangbangers or if it's old folks being difficult as fuck, right?

Y'all get so divisive about these things that you can't even see the grey area. Policing isn't always about being expedient.

I CAN imagine a scenario where the people don't end up getting dragged out. cops tell you its time to leave, you walk out. done! that wasn't too hard, was it?

don't agree with the decision that the cops are making, get their name and badge number and file a complaint.

it was the decisions of the old people that led to them getting dragged out, not the cops.

for the majority, cops are just normal people. you get what you give. want to be treated with respect and dignity? or with complete disregard for your dignity and self respect? sure, there are a few bad apples but there always are in all walks of life.

[rx7boi]

Originally posted by SOAB


I CAN imagine a scenario where the people don't end up getting dragged out. cops tell you its time to leave, you walk out. done! that wasn't too hard, was it?

don't agree with the decision that the cops are making, get their name and badge number and file a complaint.

it was the decisions of the old people that led to them getting dragged out, not the cops.


I suppose if policing was that easy I guess you'd be doing it too. :rolleyes:

[SOAB]

Originally posted by rx7boi



I suppose if policing was that easy I guess you'd be doing it too. :rolleyes:

I'm not the one saying that what the cops did was wrong... :rolleyes:

[Gestalt]

Escalate something simple, into an assault on an 80 year old couple.

Class all the way.

If they had psych degrees, they would know how to deal with things. Instead, violence is all they know.

Brutal these power trippers have so many cheerleader

[dirtsniffer]

I bet you voted NDP.

[riander5]

Originally posted by rx7boi


Tone it down there, cowboy. Seems to me you're just as entitled to your opinion as others are theirs.

You came into this thread swinging, using childish rhetoric like &quot;you must be a millenial&quot; in order to undermine opinions :rofl:

Maybe you don't think 80 years is that old or maybe you don't even really give a shit. Judging by how you've responded, you'd probably say the same thing if it was a 95 year old except you've managed to tactfully avoid that assumption.

Guys like you are probably better suited for living in the US. You acknowledge that 3 officers responded to a call yet you can't even fathom a scenario where it doesn't end with dragging him around like a sack of potatoes. You probably wouldn't recognize the difference between discretion and &quot;special treatment&quot; if it hit you in the face. To you, that's just CPS business as usual and it ain't no thang.

Doesn't matter if it's a couple of gangbangers or if it's old folks being difficult as fuck, right?

Y'all get so divisive about these things that you can't even see the grey area. Policing isn't always about being expedient.

Let me guess, you are a big supporter of the BLM movement?

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Gestalt
Escalate something simple, into an assault on an 80 year old couple.

Class all the way.

If they had psych degrees, they would know how to deal with things. Instead, violence is all they know.

Brutal these power trippers have so many cheerleader

:werd:

Glad I'm not the only one who cringed when I watched a senior being dragged down a flight of stairs by their leg.

[dirtsniffer]

you think with 80 years of life experience they wouldn't be so fucking stupid.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer
you think with 80 years of life experience they wouldn't be so fucking stupid.

Its because of all of the retards in the thread that are in an uproar that have allowed those people to not get this sort of life experience in the first place.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer
you think with 80 years of life experience they wouldn't be so fucking stupid.

I don't think you know how life works.

Let me clue you in. When you age, you suffer from physical and mental impairment.

[Majestic12]

Originally posted by SOAB


yeah, you can drag idiots out like a sack of potatoes. don't want to get hurt? walk out like an adult when asked, numerous fucking times.

I see 3 officers had responded to the call. how much more public resources do you think should be required for a call of this magnitude? 6 cops? 10? for a trespass/public nuisance call? talk about proportionality...

the public always talks about what the cops SHOULD have done. keyboard heroes that have all the answers and watch too many fucking movies.

Three officers replied, so why did I not see three officers carrying the dude down the stairs? I saw one cop dragging one person down the stairs at a time. Three police officers could easily carry a person down.

Just because someone is arguing with the police doesn't give the police carte blanche to physically dominate and demean them. That's why I say PROPORTIONALITY. That means take into account the circumstances. Were the seniors dangerous? No. Were they violent? Maybe, but it's not like they were a grave physical threat to anybody's safety. It was a scuffle, not a brawl. Was it an emergency? No.

[Majestic12]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


Its because of all of the retards in the thread that are in an uproar that have allowed those people to not get this sort of life experience in the first place.

Nice to see you can discuss the topic in a respectful manner without insulting people who don't share your point of view. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Gestalt
Escalate something simple, into an assault on an 80 year old couple.

Class all the way.

If they had psych degrees, they would know how to deal with things. Instead, violence is all they know.

Brutal these power trippers have so many cheerleader

I digress a bit on my :werd: for those statements.

That is, one doesn't need a psych degree to understand the situation. A fucking 10 year old understands it, just like the traumatized kid in the video.

That cop is yet another egotistical thug.

[BigMass]

Education relevant to the field can help assess a situation and provide real communication skills and a toolset to deal with seniors with potential dementia or anybody with mental illness. It is possible if these officers were more aware and had more empathy that they would have been able to talk these people down the stairs instead of dragging them. However, I do accept that if every avenue is attempted with failure then force is required. But I just don't see that in most of these cases. What I see is an old fashion police force hiring people that just couldn't make it into post secondary and that is a very unfortunate and poor path forward. Raising standards and salary might be a solution. I don't know, but I would like to see some studies done on this. Police is something I don't think that we as a society should be frugal on.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by Majestic12


Nice to see you can discuss the topic in a respectful manner without insulting people who don't share your point of view. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

There comes a point where you just start to get sick of it, where there is such a CLEAR correlation between A and B, and it could be EASILY reduced by doing C, and yet people still argue against it, it becomes incredibly frustrating. Personal responsibility needs to be taught, not victimization.

Might be time for another Beyond break lol.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[BigMass]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
I don't disagree on the action to forcefully remove them; the idea of having a bunch of PHD head doctors trying to baby them into walking down the stairs is inefficient and likely wouldn't succeed anyway.

I do however think they shouldn't have dragged the guy down the stairs for passively resisting. Getting the other officer to help him, or waiting for additional support would have been a better call.

hold off on the PHD talk. I was obviously exaggerating but I do feel that the level of education provided in this field is greatly lacking, as are the standards for becoming a police officer. Hence my uneducated opinion that us, as a society, should be spending more towards a more educated police force. This IMO would benefit everyone and lead to greater happiness and well being.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by Seth1968


I digress a bit on my :werd: for those statements.

That is, one doesn't need a psych degree to understand the situation. A fucking 10 year old understands it, just like the traumatized kid in the video.

That cop is yet another egotistical thug.

I know, someone had jokingly stated earlier that cops should be educated.

Any decent human being would know how to handle this situation without violence and abuse.

[revelations]

Originally posted by BigMass
Education relevant to the field can help assess a situation and provide real communication skills and a toolset to deal with seniors with potential dementia or anybody with mental illness. It is possible if these officers were more aware and had more empathy that they would have been able to talk these people down the stairs instead of dragging them. However, I do accept that if every avenue is attempted with failure then force is required. But I just don't see that in most of these cases. What I see is an old fashion police force hiring people that just couldn't make it into post secondary and that is a very unfortunate and poor path forward. Raising standards and salary might be a solution. I don't know, but I would like to see some studies done on this. Police is something I don't think that we as a society should be frugal on.

You mean to say the RCMP just showed up and started dragging asses out immediately without trying to communicate with these people?

Perhaps if the video showed the ENTIRE process you might understand.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by revelations


You mean to say the RCMP just showed up and started dragging asses out immediately without trying to communicate with these people?

Perhaps if the video showed the ENTIRE process you might understand.

It's not complicated. There were no bombs involved. If they didnt have the skills to deal with the situation, call someone else that does.

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by BigMass


hold off on the PHD talk. I was obviously exaggerating but I do feel that the level of education provided in this field is greatly lacking, as are the standards for becoming a police officer. Hence my uneducated opinion that us, as a society, should be spending more towards a more educated police force. This IMO would benefit everyone and lead to greater happiness and well being.

I'm glad you acknowledge that your opinion is uneducated, and that you "feel" these things, as opposed to stating it as simple fact like so many do. I would also like to ask out of simple curiosity, in what respect do you think the standards for becoming a police officer are lacking? The minimum qualifications are on paper lower than most would like, but the actual standard is much higher.

Further to that, this is why we have generally have very high level policing in Canada. It may not seem like it, but don't believe everything you see or hear in the media. We do. Our police are very professional and highly trained in this country. The idea that we are all bullied/bullies in high school, have grudges, or are uneducated is simply untrue. Everyone I work with is highly educated, were generally professionals in their past life of some sort, very social and have successful relationships and families, and are not 'thugs'. Out of the millions of interactions police have every year with the public, we hear about the few really crappy ones and see stuff like this and automatically default to the mindset that as a whole, it could be done better. What about the vast majority of the time when it IS being done better? Why doesn't that count?

The level of training provided to police in areas of mental health, vulnerable persons, and how we deal with them on the street and during these types of situations could be better. However, to say that it was lacking in this situation when we don't know all the facts, is in my opinion irresponsible. We simply don't know.

As with most things involving the police these days, the optics may not look good but it doesn't mean it was wrong. You may disagree with it all day long, but sometimes these decisions are made after a lot of work to deal with it another way, and ultimately we resort to force as necessary. Whether it's a young person or the very elderly, sometimes it just works out that way.

Not saying that's the case here, but let's just pump the brakes a bit until we know why these officers made the decision to do what they did until we indict them for their actions. And as I always say, I can't say if this is right or wrong based on what little I've seen or know, so I won't defend or condemn them either.

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by Gestalt


I know, someone had jokingly stated earlier that cops should be educated.

Any decent human being would know how to handle this situation without violence and abuse.

Since you are privy to all the information and what these officers did prior to using force, please share with the rest of us so we can also weigh in on this.

Earlier you used the word assault, along with power tripper and making statements about violence being all they know. That's a pretty broad brush to be painting people with, don't you think? And are you aware of what authorities the police act under in Canada to use force? If you do, excellent! Please articulate the assault here, or how this was abusive.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by phil98z24


Since you are privy to all the information and what these officers did prior to using force, please share with the rest of us so we can also weigh in on this.

Earlier you used the word assault, along with power tripper and making statements about violence being all they know. That's a pretty broad brush to be painting people with, don't you think? And are you aware of what authorities the police act under in Canada to use force? If you do, excellent! Please articulate the assault here, or how this was abusive.

There is nothing an 80 year old could do to me, that would justify me dragging them down the stairs like that.

[revelations]

Originally posted by Gestalt


There is nothing an 80 year old could do to me, that would justify me dragging them down the stairs like that.

No one suggested the elderly person was combative.

So lets say that all communications have failed (they arent/wont listen) - your time is limited - and the person is not letting go of whatever they are hanging on to in order to remove them from the premises.

What are your next options?

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by Gestalt


There is nothing an 80 year old could do to me, that would justify me dragging them down the stairs like that.

I didn't ask you if there was anything they could do to you. But you seem to know what happened in that situation because you've already turned in your verdict on it, so tell me what they did to those RCMP members so I can tell you if I agree with your statement on whether it was worthy of use of force or not.

[Majestic12]

Originally posted by revelations

your time is limited
...
What are your next options?

Where did that come from? There was no need for the police to get them out ASAP.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by phil98z24


I didn't ask you if there was anything they could do to you. But you seem to know what happened in that situation because you've already turned in your verdict on it, so tell me what they did to those RCMP members so I can tell you if I agree with your statement on whether it was worthy of use of force or not.

Let me slow it down. There was no bomb, no guns.

There
is
nothing
an
80
year
old
could
do
to
me
that
would
justify
dragging
them
down
the
stairs
like
that

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by Gestalt


Let me slow it down. There was no bomb, no guns.

There
is
nothing
an
80
year
old
could
do
to
me
that
would
justify
dragging
them
down
the
stairs
like
that

Good chat.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[revelations]

Do you folks think the police have hours to wait around with a person(s) who continually refuses to leave??

How do you justify to the taxpayers an increase in fees for the police services - who are now standing around at 100's of dollars an hour (billed to the city) trying - with their PHD in Psychology - articulating each others positions and examining the root cause of the call??

Your calls and your shift are being monitored by the watch/duty commander. There (usually) are other calls stacked up and the paper work associated with each preceding one. Efficiency is crucial - time management critical.

Phil could explain this better, but basically, you get on the scene, assess, discuss and evaluate. In a situation like this (non violent) you ALWAYS try to talk things out first - communicate, listen to the concerns (usually whining) and then politely ask the people to leave the premises.

80% of the time its usually routine (please, thank you, goodbye) but when you get drunk/mentally unwell people involved, it becomes a mess.


For those asking why not more police on scene:

The number of units/members usually assigned to a call like this are lower because of the statistical probability of it being peaceful. Having 5-6 cops standing around for, what is usually a good outcome, is not effecient use of tax dollars.

[Majestic12]

The average cop makes between 100-125k annually. Where's this 100's of dollars coming from? A supervisor has extra paperwork to do? Oh no! Also, who said they were there for hours? Sounds to me like you're exaggerating what happened and what it costs just to prove your point.

Even if that's the case, let me ask you this -- do you want things done fast and cheap, or do you want them done right?

[dirtsniffer]

Fuck this guy.
|
|
|
\ /

[rx7boi]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer
you're right.



please don't vote NDP again. fucking SJW

:rofl: :rofl: Thanks for coming out. Or you can stay and continue to lob irrelevant insults!

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by Majestic12
or do you want them done right?

See, the problem you have is that you don't get it that allowing the behaviour to continue is not "done right".

Fuck, please don't ever have kids. Should a teacher just sit there and let a kid holler and screech for 8 hours in a classroom? F*&k no, take the kid out of class, physically if necessary, and pray the parents beat the little shit.

Zero difference here. You spend a bit of time trying to solve the situation without force, but at some point, the rubber meets the road and things are going to happen whether you like it or not.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


Should a teacher just sit there and let a kid holler and screech for 8 hours in a classroom? F*&amp;k no, take the kid out of class, physically if necessary, and pray the parents beat the little shit.


Terrible, yet funny analogy:)

This is a passive frail old man being dragged down a flight of stairs by his leg FFS.

Hey Gestalt, are you able to slow it down even more?

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by Seth1968


Terrible, yet funny analogy:)

This is a passive frail old man being dragged down a flight of stairs by his leg FFS.

Hey Gestalt, are you able to slow it down even more?

I think it is a fine analogy.

It isn't that anybody needs it "slowed down", despite your incessant need to try to make others who don't aqree with you feel stupid. It is about a difference in opinion.

In this scenario, we have two sides:

Side 1: People who think the people brought it on themselves by refusing to leave, and that they should be subject to whatever actions are required to make them leave.

Side 2: People who feel that cops have no right to treat old people like that, regardless of the reason, and that they should have gotten rid of the couple by different means, or do nothing at all.

As these are two OPINIONS, thoughts are bound to vary and both are not right or wrong, technically. But my OPINION, as stated before, is that this couple had the option to follow the request of the officers, and not get into this potential situation in the first place. They denied their opportunity for a calm resolution when they refused to leave.

I might have missed it (sorry, I'm at work and not a lot of time to re-read the thread) but have the "side 2" people come up with an alternate, more friendly solution to the scenario yet?

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Kloubek


I think it is a fine analogy.

It isn't that anybody needs it &quot;slowed down&quot;, despite your incessant need to try to make others who don't aqree with you feel stupid. It is about a difference in opinion.

In this scenario, we have two sides:

Side 1: People who think the people brought it on themselves by refusing to leave, and that they should be subject to whatever actions are required to make them leave.

Side 2: People who feel that cops have no right to treat old people like that, regardless of the reason, and that they should have gotten rid of the couple by different means, or do nothing at all.

As these are two OPINIONS, thoughts are bound to vary and both are not right or wrong, technically. But my OPINION, as stated before, is that this couple had the option to follow the request of the officers, and not get into this potential situation in the first place. They denied their opportunity for a calm resolution when they refused to leave.

I might have missed it (sorry, I'm at work and not a lot of time to re-read the thread) but have the &quot;side 2&quot; people come up with an alternate, more friendly solution to the scenario yet?

Your side 2 is wrong in 2 ways. That is, the "regardless of the reason part", and "do nothing part".

In regards to your last paragraph, how about one officer takes his arms, another other takes his legs, and they CARRY him down the stairs?

[Majestic12]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


See, the problem you have is that you don't get it that allowing the behaviour to continue is not &quot;done right&quot;.

Fuck, please don't ever have kids. Should a teacher just sit there and let a kid holler and screech for 8 hours in a classroom? F*&amp;k no, take the kid out of class, physically if necessary, and pray the parents beat the little shit.

Zero difference here. You spend a bit of time trying to solve the situation without force, but at some point, the rubber meets the road and things are going to happen whether you like it or not.

Why does it have to be either A) leave calmly or B) be dragged down the stairs? This is why I keep saying proportionality. The response should be suitable to the situation. Where did I say they should let the old couple stay and bitch about the situation for 8 hours? If the time came for them to be removed, do it properly.

What if the cops took out their night sticks and beat the shit out of the couple before taking them out? Is that appropriate? Because with old people, a physical response are can be much more damaging to their well being than to a 20 year old healthy person.

[Majestic12]

Originally posted by Kloubek


Side 2: People who feel that cops have no right to treat old people like that, regardless of the reason, and that they should have gotten rid of the couple by different means, or do nothing at all.
...
I might have missed it (sorry, I'm at work and not a lot of time to re-read the thread) but have the &quot;side 2&quot; people come up with an alternate, more friendly solution to the scenario yet?

Sure. Have two or more people carry someone out rather than dragging them on the ground. Done. Nobody has their head and limbs banging against the floor and walls.

[JRSC00LUDE]

You know, if it were my grandparents I'd be pissed off to all hell and worried about if they were hurt.

And then after I'd probably have said "Grandpa, what the hell were you thinking? Jesus Christ man, who acts like that?"

:dunno:

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Majestic12


Sure. Have two or more people carry someone out rather than dragging them on the ground. Done. Nobody has their head and limbs banging against the floor and walls.

Yep. See my previous post ;)

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE
And then after I'd probably have said &quot;Grandpa, what the hell were you thinking? Jesus Christ man, who acts like that?&quot;


Jesus Christ?

[JRSC00LUDE]

For Buddha's sake just doesn't have the same blasphemous ring to it.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE
For Buddha's sake just doesn't have the same blasphemous ring to it.

:rofl:

I don't have the time (nor solar energy) to reply to that wit.

[revelations]

Originally posted by Majestic12
The average cop makes between 100-125k annually. Where's this 100's of dollars coming from? A supervisor has extra paperwork to do? Oh no! Also, who said they were there for hours? Sounds to me like you're exaggerating what happened and what it costs just to prove your point.

Even if that's the case, let me ask you this -- do you want things done fast and cheap, or do you want them done right?

Again, shows how far removed you are from the processes. I have not been in the game for a long time either - but I do know the costs for policing are not cheap. Its not just the guys on scene, there are fees for 911 dispatch, vehicles, support staff etc. For eg. the RCMP in Richmond bill around 180,000$ annually for ONE member. Having 3-4 guys standing around is piss poor use of public resources that could be put to better use elsewhere.

Imagine you're at the scene here when a call comes about a domestic where a male is beating up his wife - and you're the closest unit. Sorry - send someone else because I am tied up with discussing high level ethics and psychology to some shithead who refused to listen earlier. The media will then report that a woman was beaten half to death in a domestic because the police response time was too slow.


If one shithead refuses to leave after being asked politely on numerous occasions your options are to increase the level of force proportionally. No hard weapons, OC spray / taser were used in this event. Had a second RCMP member come in and used force to remove that person from holding the railing (and then carried then down the stairs), you would have accused them of brutality and causing injury.

While there are bad cops and certainly local examples of police brutality - this is not it.

[Majestic12]

Originally posted by revelations


Again, shows how far removed you are from the processes. I have not been in the game for a long time either - but I do know the costs for policing are not cheap. Its not just the guys on scene, there are fees for 911 dispatch, vehicles, etc. For eg. the RCMP in Richmond bill around 180,000$ annually for ONE member. Having 3-4 guys standing around is piss poor use of public resources that could be put to better use elsewhere.
...

If one shithead refuses to leave after being asked politely on numerous occasions your options are to increase the level of force proportionally. No hard weapons, OC spray / taser were used in this event. Had a second RCMP member come in and used force to remove that person from holding the railing (and then carried then down the stairs), you would have accused them of brutality and causing injury.

While there are bad cops and certainly local examples of police brutality - this is not it.

Nobody said policing was cheap. But they're there to serve as public servants. That includes tasks as mundane as writing traffic tickets, following up on hypersensitive 9-1-1 callers, and taking care of unruly seniors. Whether there are other emergent situations elsewhere is irrelevant. At the time, the police officers' responsibilities were to deal with the dispute in front of them.

If one shithead refuses to leave after being asked politely on numerous occasions, yes, the best option is to increase the level of force PROPORTIONALLY. So in your eyes, step 1. ask them to leave. step 2. drag them out along the ground? Seriously? You can't think of something in between those two options that would be suitable and achieve the same result?

[Majestic12]

And by the way, your earlier claim of police costing "100's of dollars an hour" and $180k annually doesn't work out. Because $180k a year ends up at about $90 per hour at a rate of 2000 working hours per year.

[revelations]

Originally posted by revelations
Its not just the guys on scene, there are fees for 911 dispatch, vehicle costs, support staff, etc.



Originally posted by Majestic12
And by the way, your earlier claim of police costing &quot;100's of dollars an hour&quot; and $180k annually doesn't work out. Because $180k a year ends up at about $90 per hour at a rate of 2000 working hours per year.

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by Majestic12


Sure. Have two or more people carry someone out rather than dragging them on the ground. Done. Nobody has their head and limbs banging against the floor and walls.

Ok, this is a fair statement. It certainly would have been a kinder, gentler way of doing it that probably would have been more appropriate.

Yet, the fact remains that forceful removal was instigated by the actions of the couple. Had they just cooperated, there would be no discussion for us to have.

[Majestic12]

Ok fair enough. Let's double it then. $180/hr. Hell, let's triple that. Call it $540 per hour.

So as a taxpayer, I personally would rather have my taxes go towards an extra $540 per hour to have one more police officer on scene to be able to carry someone out rather than drag them out in a potentially dangerous fashion. If it comes down to it, if they suffered any sorts of injuries, the resulting lawsuit would cost a hell of a lot more than $540.

edit: derpy math

[phil98z24]

How do any of us know what happened between the time of the initial call to the time they were dragged out? Maybe they willingly walked out with police until they got to the stairs, then decided to passively resist and refuse to go any further? Perhaps they didn't need to carry anyone out until that point? I've had it happen to me before when people decide to go until they don't, then drop to the ground as dead weight and refuse to go. I'm not going to use pain compliance and other techniques because that isn't proportional, so I've resorted to pulling someone along. As much as it looks like crap, it doesn't usually cause serious, if any, bodily harm.

People aren't as frail and prone to breakage as you may think they are, and until you've had to deal with people from all walks of life, ages, etc, on a daily basis and can actually experience it from my side, I'd understand why you may think otherwise.

As far as having all the time in the world, etc, you may think that police have all the time in the world to do things and work through every situation. There are limits, and the Supreme Court agrees, to how much time police need to give people to comply especially when there is potential for violence or ongoing breach of the peace - and the fact is, you don't have a right to ignore police demands. There is a time and place to disagree with it, but that isn't it. Sometimes it comes down to having to do things that look ugly in order to fulfill our duty to keep the peace and maintain order, whether that's very minor or extreme.

Again, not saying they did things right here - but we don't know everything that happened up to that point and maybe that was the absolute last resort, which most of the time is usually when people get offended and the video starts rolling.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by phil98z24
How do any of us know what happened between the time of the initial call to the time they were dragged out? Maybe they willingly walked out with police until they got to the stairs, then decided to passively resist and refuse to go any further? Perhaps they didn't need to carry anyone out until that point? I've had it happen to me before when people decide to go until they don't, then drop to the ground as dead weight and refuse to go. I'm not going to use pain compliance and other techniques because that isn't proportional, so I've resorted to pulling someone along. As much as it looks like crap, it doesn't usually cause serious, if any, bodily harm.

People aren't as frail and prone to breakage as you may think they are, and until you've had to deal with people from all walks of life, ages, etc, on a daily basis and can actually experience it from my side, I'd understand why you may think otherwise.

As far as having all the time in the world, etc, you may think that police have all the time in the world to do things and work through every situation. There are limits, and the Supreme Court agrees, to how much time police need to give people to comply especially when there is potential for violence or ongoing breach of the peace - and the fact is, you don't have a right to ignore police demands. There is a time and place to disagree with it, but that isn't it. Sometimes it comes down to having to do things that look ugly in order to fulfill our duty to keep the peace and maintain order, whether that's very minor or extreme.

Again, not saying they did things right here - but we don't know everything that happened up to that point and maybe that was the absolute last resort, which most of the time is usually when people get offended and the video starts rolling.

"Maybe" your biased?

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Gestalt


Let me slow it down. There was no bomb, no guns.

There
is
nothing
an
80
year
old
could
do
to
me
that
would
justify
dragging
them
down
the
stairs
like
that
First an expert on running a business, and now an expert on policing.

Is there no end to your infnite wisdom and experience?

:rolleyes:

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Seth1968


&quot;Maybe&quot; your biased?
Or maybe, just maybe he's a person trained and eperienced in police work and dealing with subjects, and actually knows what's he talking about here. Unlike the armchair warriors whose sole experience in dealing with subduing people is what they've seen on TV. You know....SJW's.

[Majestic12]

Originally posted by phil98z24

.. until you've had to deal with people from all walks of life, ages, etc, on a daily basis and can actually experience it from my side, I'd understand why you may think otherwise.



I'm not a cop, but I deal with people of all walks of life, ages, etc. on a daily basis that have been legitimately injured some ways that you would never really expect or predict.

[revelations]

Originally posted by Majestic12
Ok fair enough. Let's double it then. $180/hr. Hell, let's triple that. Call it $540 per hour.

So as a taxpayer, I personally would rather have my taxes go towards an extra $540 per hour to have one more police officer on scene to be able to carry someone out rather than drag them out in a potentially dangerous fashion. If it comes down to it, if they suffered any sorts of injuries, the resulting lawsuit would cost a hell of a lot more than $540.

edit: derpy math

Thats not how the real world works unfortunately. Cities have strict budgets and the cops are under that (and many other) microscope already. Lawsuits happen all the time but many are frivolous and are dismissed.

The public officials will demand to know why costs of policing has gone up and may switch to a municipal force if, for eg. the RCMP do this.

Until you have worked either with or as a first responder, you will never understand what really happens out there (in the city) on an average Friday night shift.

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by Seth1968


&quot;Maybe&quot; your biased?

Where is my bias here? I have said repeatedly I don't agree or disagree, just offering up some opinion based on experience and my training, and saying to hold off on rendering judgement on this.

You automatically jump to me seeing it one side or the other because you, by and large, disagree with anything the police/government do, so anytime anyone says anything speaking from their perspective you conclude it's some biased opinion.

[Majestic12]

Originally posted by revelations


Lawsuits happen all the time but many are frivolous and are dismissed.



Actually, this is one case where it would be VERY interesting to hear why there were multiple officers there, but only one "carrying" each person at a time. Most definitely not frivolous. And most definitely not one that would be so easily dismissed.

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by Majestic12


I'm not a cop, but I deal with people of all walks of life, ages, etc. on a daily basis that have been legitimately injured some ways that you would never really expect or predict.

Ok, so let's talk about that since we aren't going to address the rest of this.

I've seen the same thing, but I can't predict to a nicety what the end result of my actions will be, nor can I assume anything I do will cause a certain thing to happen - outside of shooting a person or striking them in the head with a baton, for example. Fear of the unknown and any manner of results from use of minor force shouldn't stop the police from using it, and doesn't change this idea of proportionality you speak of.

Again, you don't know what happened to lead up to that decision to drag this person around, so at this point how can you say that person didn't do something that required what you're seeing on this very short video? Perhaps that senior exhibited physical capabilities and behaviours that required a decision to use some type of force to get compliance? Maybe they didn't and these guys used excessive force? Who knows?

What I'm saying is: people need to stop looking at this so black and white, because it often times isn't.

[Majestic12]

Originally posted by phil98z24


Ok, so let's talk about that since we aren't going to address the rest of this.

I've seen the same thing, but I can't predict to a nicety what the end result of my actions will be, nor can I assume anything I do will cause a certain thing to happen - outside of shooting a person or striking them in the head with a baton, for example. Fear of the unknown and any manner of results from use of minor force shouldn't stop the police from using it, and doesn't change this idea of proportionality you speak of.

Again, you don't know what happened to lead up to that decision to drag this person around, so at this point how can you say that person didn't do something that required what you're seeing on this very short video? Perhaps that senior exhibited physical capabilities and behaviours that required a decision to use some type of force to get compliance? Maybe they didn't and these guys used excessive force? Who knows?

What I'm saying is: people need to stop looking at this so black and white, because it often times isn't.

That may very well be the case -- but that goes both ways. You can't excuse the police fully either, at least until more facts come out. But from what I've read about this incident, there haven't been any allegations that the two seniors were attacking the police or were some kind of physical threat that needed to be removed immediately. If this WAS an emergent situation, I am pretty confident that info would have made its way to the public by now. From what I know, it's basically a condo board meeting that went awry, with people getting heated, with a possible scuffle.

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by Majestic12


That may very well be the case -- but that goes both ways. You can't excuse the police fully either, at least until more facts come out. But from what I've read about this incident, there haven't been any allegations that the two seniors were attacking the police or were some kind of physical threat that needed to be removed immediately. If this WAS an emergent situation, I am pretty confident that info would have made its way to the public by now. From what I know, it's basically a condo board meeting that went awry, with people getting heated, with a possible scuffle.

Edit: I have to add that I appreciate those who are approaching this in a rational and respectful manner (including you). I like to give my perspective without it becoming a personal attack on me or automatically dismissing me because of the work I do. :thumbsup:

I fully agree it works both ways, but I'm not fully excusing them. I'm offering up plausible explanations for their actions, and have even said we can't say if it was right or wrong. You may think more information would have come to light by now, but you'd also be amazed at the information people will withhold about these types of things, especially when it's an active investigation.

Having been on that side of the tape a number of times, I can say with confidence that most of the time the public doesn't hear but a fraction of what actually occurred. We just don't know what happened yet.

As far as this being emergent, it doesn't have to be emergent for police to use force. Most of the time I use force, there is nothing emergent happening but has come to the point where it's required or the only available option. Further more, imminent breaches of the peace and stopping a disturbance from continuing are common law duties and legislated duties of the police, and to not prevent that is neglect of duty and unlawful. Sometimes we are simply obligated to act, and we don't know what led to those members taking action. Bear in mind that not everything needs to be demonstrated violence or ongoing to be considered worthy of police intervention.

They did respond to a meeting where people were reported to be fighting, at least according to the media, and that's about all we really know aside from this couple allegedly being a part of that. I think everyone needs to step back and wait until we know everything.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by C_Dave45

First an expert on running a business, and now an expert on policing.

Is there no end to your infnite wisdom and experience?

:rolleyes:

You are telling me, you can imagine a circumstance where you would drag an 80 year old persons down the stairs like show in the video?

I've played every scenario in my head. Kicking me in the balls, spitting on me, trying to give me a blow job etc.

I cannot fathom an instance of circumstance where I would lower myself to the level required to mistreat an 80 year old person like that.

It actually turns my stomach that so many here think that anything can justify that level of brutality.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by revelations


Thats not how the real world works unfortunately. Cities have strict budgets and the cops are under that (and many other) microscope already. Lawsuits happen all the time but many are frivolous and are dismissed.

The public officials will demand to know why costs of policing has gone up and may switch to a municipal force if, for eg. the RCMP do this.

Until you have worked either with or as a first responder, you will never understand what really happens out there (in the city) on an average Friday night shift.

Cops time is valuable. There are speeding tickets and j walking tickets so write.

:rolleyes: