Subwoofers

[89coupe]

Have you guys seen SVS's new SB & PB16 Ultra :eek:

I'm so tempted to sell my PB13 Ultra and order it up.

https://www.svsound.com/products/sb16-ultra

https://www.svsound.com/products/pb16-ultra

[spike98]

I have a serious question...

Doesn't spending $2500 USD on a sub make an appreciable difference than say a $1000 sub? That seems like a LOT of money for a home sub woofer.

[revelations]

^ Its the same argument with $ 10,000 speakers vs $ 3,000 speakers. Some people claim to be able to hear the difference, while some just want to have the "best" available.

Btw with the SB16 coming in at 175 lbs (roughly 2' square cube) , you know its pretty serious quality.

[b_t]

I remember back when I was into car audio, we thought a sub was serious if it had 30mm of xmax. That one has 64? Fucking ridiculous. This will probably be capable of some truly insane output levels.

That price though .... no thanks!

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by spike98
I have a serious question...

Doesn't spending $2500 USD on a sub make an appreciable difference than say a $1000 sub? That seems like a LOT of money for a home sub woofer.

In that price range, yes, there is a pretty significant difference between a lot of $1000 subs and a $2500-$3000 subs that I think just about anyone would be able to actually notice. More so than a set of speakers. Certainly they are still subject to the laws of diminishing return, just like anything HT related. Almost every SUB is also self powered, so you're also paying for the amplification, unlike most speakers. That makes up a large part of the cost. The internet direct companies like SVS, HSU, etc. will usually be cheaper than something from a major brand.

Proper room calibration/equalization makes by far the biggest difference for most people with subwoofers, which is something that is more difficult to get. The sub calibration built into receivers (unless you have an Anthem) is not nearly as good as standalone products like the Paradigm PBK-1. There are other standalone devices too, but I think a lot of people either aren't aware of them or don't want to incur the extra cost.

The other thing is a lot of people get subs that are too small for their rooms, either for cost or aesthetic reasons. Powerful subs with a small footprint are expensive, and at a certain point you can't defy the laws of physics. The subwoofer and center channel do 80-90% of the work when watching a movie and a lot of people cheap out on the sub when building a HT. Having 2-4 subs can also make a huge difference depending on the room and your goals.

Subwoofers are less subjective than speakers IMO, but there is still a lot to consider.

I tried to get on the SVS train, I bought a SVS PC 12 Plus and it was one of the most disappointing pieces of A/V equipment I've ever owned. It was consistently outperformed by a cheaper sub 1/5 it's size in hours and hours of A/B comparisons and blind tests. Worked with SVS for ~2 weeks to try resolve issues, even swapping out parts (driver, amp, control board), and ended up returning it. Probably wouldn't buy anything from that company again, but they did treat me well on the customer service side.

[r3ccOs]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt


In that price range, yes, there is a pretty significant difference between a lot of $1000 subs and a $2500-$3000 subs that I think just about anyone would be able to actually notice. More so than a set of speakers. Certainly they are still subject to the laws of diminishing return, just like anything HT related. Almost every SUB is also self powered, so you're also paying for the amplification, unlike most speakers. That makes up a large part of the cost. The internet direct companies like SVS, HSU, etc. will usually be cheaper than something from a major brand.

Proper room calibration/equalization makes by far the biggest difference for most people with subwoofers, which is something that is more difficult to get. The sub calibration built into receivers (unless you have an Anthem) is not nearly as good as standalone products like the Paradigm PBK-1. There are other standalone devices too, but I think a lot of people either aren't aware of them or don't want to incur the extra cost.

The other thing is a lot of people get subs that are too small for their rooms, either for cost or aesthetic reasons. Powerful subs with a small footprint are expensive, and at a certain point you can't defy the laws of physics. The subwoofer and center channel do 80-90% of the work when watching a movie and a lot of people cheap out on the sub when building a HT. Having 2-4 subs can also make a huge difference depending on the room and your goals.

Subwoofers are less subjective than speakers IMO, but there is still a lot to consider.

I tried to get on the SVS train, I bought a SVS PC 12 Plus and it was one of the most disappointing pieces of A/V equipment I've ever owned. It was consistently outperformed by a cheaper sub 1/5 it's size in hours and hours of A/B comparisons and blind tests. Worked with SVS for ~2 weeks to try resolve issues, even swapping out parts (driver, amp, control board), and ended up returning it. Probably wouldn't buy anything from that company again, but they did treat me well on the customer service side.

yup...

the whole principle of a sub woofer is to be able to deliver accurate SPL(s) to the lowest depth possible in the room it services..

the first experience I had to this was with Sunfire and Velodyne and my dad had bought this:

http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_4/velodyne-hgs-18-subwoofer.html

Incredibly powerful digital amplifier (at the time) with a very high quality driver, great surrounds and a well built sealed box... which ended up being much more musical than originally anticipated.

with subwoofers, its all about control...
due to the dimensions of a subwoofer you would almost have to compensate between depth, and speed.

the more overhead you have in your subwoofer in terms of amplification provides the grip that can control a large and stiff woofer.

that said... I'd say for non-commercial or non-custom applications, Velodyne, SVS, M&K and Sunfire offer an excellent offering for multi-purpose use.

If it comes to say "music" - where textures and prat is more important, then REL is one of the best in the game... however I've heard good woofers from B&W as well as the weird Moral offering.
Most speaker manufacturers offer good subwoofers these days, but I'd say REL is still the leader in the 2 channel space

ideally dual sub woofers in an inline crossover ed setup is best for 2 channel listening

there are also some odd offerings here and there that are suprising, along with a vintage Mirage BPS-150 which are incredibly musical and can be had for almost nothing

[spike98]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt


In that price range, yes, there is a pretty significant difference between a lot of $1000 subs and a $2500-$3000 subs that I think just about anyone would be able to actually notice. More so than a set of speakers. Certainly they are still subject to the laws of diminishing return, just like anything HT related. Almost every SUB is also self powered, so you're also paying for the amplification, unlike most speakers. That makes up a large part of the cost. The internet direct companies like SVS, HSU, etc. will usually be cheaper than something from a major brand.

Proper room calibration/equalization makes by far the biggest difference for most people with subwoofers, which is something that is more difficult to get. The sub calibration built into receivers (unless you have an Anthem) is not nearly as good as standalone products like the Paradigm PBK-1. There are other standalone devices too, but I think a lot of people either aren't aware of them or don't want to incur the extra cost.

The other thing is a lot of people get subs that are too small for their rooms, either for cost or aesthetic reasons. Powerful subs with a small footprint are expensive, and at a certain point you can't defy the laws of physics. The subwoofer and center channel do 80-90% of the work when watching a movie and a lot of people cheap out on the sub when building a HT. Having 2-4 subs can also make a huge difference depending on the room and your goals.

Subwoofers are less subjective than speakers IMO, but there is still a lot to consider.

I tried to get on the SVS train, I bought a SVS PC 12 Plus and it was one of the most disappointing pieces of A/V equipment I've ever owned. It was consistently outperformed by a cheaper sub 1/5 it's size in hours and hours of A/B comparisons and blind tests. Worked with SVS for ~2 weeks to try resolve issues, even swapping out parts (driver, amp, control board), and ended up returning it. Probably wouldn't buy anything from that company again, but they did treat me well on the customer service side.

I feel like you contradicted yourself when you said that yes it makes a huge difference then went on to talk about more important ways to spend money like room/sub calibration. Then you went on to provide a real world example of an overpriced sub failing to meet expectations.

Perhaps i misunderstood?

Dont get me wrong, i understand (and sometimes succumb to) the "Must have the best" mentality. I am just starting to test the waters of HT and trying to find out where to spend my money wisely.

Coming from the car audio days, a good set up was like 75% install and only 25% equipment if you at least went with big box (pioneer, PG, MTX, JBL, ect) and you could spend half the money on a well planned and tuned bargain system and have it compete with the high high high end setups.

[Kavy]

This is a great discussion IMO and wanted to post just so I could subscribe :)

I have the mentioned Velodyne Digital Drive +12 and paid a ridiculous amount for it. When I first got it I was completely blown away by its control and ability to make my light bulbs burn out by shaking (thank god for LEDS).

In comparison I bought a Cerwin Vega XLS12 which cost about 1/10 of the Velodyne for the bonus room since I already had a set of fronts and a centre that was Cerwin and i was more concerned about how it would look then actual sound (matchy matchy) since it was the wife and kids area :)

I would have to say that almost every single person that I have shown both systems to cannot tell the difference and there is a gross difference in cost and equipment when it comes to drivers, receivers ($400 onkyo visions special in the bonus room). Sometimes I wonder if its just me convincing myself that there is that big of a difference.

[b_t]

Hahah, I just been looking at the Velodyne Direct Drives but the cost is ridiculous. To me it seems like you can get musical subs for fairly reasonable money (say $500). It's when you want a sub to be both musical and loud the price starts to get out of control..

I figure I'll get a Hsu ULS-15 and call it a day. I have a Definitive Supercube 6000 which is very impressive for the size but just doesn't dig deep enough for home theater use ... I want that <15hz rumble

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by spike98


I feel like you contradicted yourself when you said that yes it makes a huge difference then went on to talk about more important ways to spend money like room/sub calibration. Then you went on to provide a real world example of an overpriced sub failing to meet expectations.

Perhaps i misunderstood?

Dont get me wrong, i understand (and sometimes succumb to) the &quot;Must have the best&quot; mentality. I am just starting to test the waters of HT and trying to find out where to spend my money wisely.

Coming from the car audio days, a good set up was like 75% install and only 25% equipment if you at least went with big box (pioneer, PG, MTX, JBL, ect) and you could spend half the money on a well planned and tuned bargain system and have it compete with the high high high end setups.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was specifically answering the question on whether or not there was a big difference between a $1000 sub and say, a $2500-$3000 sub. Yes, there (usually) is, but setup is still important and an expensive sub with lots of quality power can still sound bad. The more expensive subs are typically going to have larger (or multiple) drivers with a lot more (quality) power, and depending on the brand, an included stand-alone calibration device (Paradigm has the best & easiest calibration solution IMHO). If you want a ton of power out of a small footprint, that is also typically an expensive combination. At some point though physics comes into play. You can buy the best 8" sub in the world and it will sound useless in a large room HT setup. Most people don't buy enough sub for the room, especially for HT. All I'm trying to say is that with subs, more so than speakers, you typically get more for your money (there are always exceptions, like in my example). It's still important to set it up and calibrate properly to get the most out of it. With subs you're buying 2-3 things (Driver, amp, and sometimes room correction) compared to speakers where the vast majority of them are passive. You can more easily get away with cheaper speakers than you can a cheaper sub, especially for HT.

In my example, I just think that sub wasn't very good. It was a cheap-ish internet direct sub (I think around $1500) that was supposed to be huge bang for the buck and in my opinion and with my application it came up short. I also think the design left something to be desired with how easily the ports start to chuff even under normal load. Internet direct subs also require a third party calibration device and extra tinkering to perform ideally in the room. I eventually replaced it with a $3000 sub that absolutely destroys it in every possible area (which was not unexpected). The more expensive sub was also smaller, had the same size driver, but had double the RMS wattage and over 50% more peak wattage. Add on top of that proper room equalization, and it was night & day.

I would still rather have a decent sub with enough power for the room (this is key) that has been room corrected than a giant, expensive sub with no room correction and sounds like ass. I immediately think of all the people who are probably going to buy that SVS PB/SB 16 ultra just because it's huge and has tons of power, but will never bother to equalize it. It will probably sound pretty terrible, but some people think room-shaking muddy bass non-stop during a movie is desirable. If your room has a huge null across the common HT bass range, or a large boomy spot somewhere, it's going to sound bad or you're going to wonder why your sub sounds like it has no power.

One of the most noticeable things I've ever done to my HT is equalize the sub. Immediately the bass was MUCH better, all resonant frequencies disappeared (no more dishes rattling in the next room), and every boomy spot and null was removed from my room. Things seemed to 'tighten up' and that visceral slam you expect in your chest while watching movies was greatly emphasized. You can buy an amazing high quality sub with tons of power and still have it sound bad if it doesn't play nice with your room (which it almost surely won't out of the box). Room correction for speakers is also important, but any decent receiver these days comes with good room correction for non-bass frequencies.

I know I ramble a lot so it's probably even more confusing now haha. Just make sure you do these two things if you are serious about setting up a HT or dedicated listening area:

1) Get enough sub for the room with regards to power. More expensive or more advertised wattage isn't better if it can't move enough air to give you a good HT experience. You can never have too much sub (headroom is good), and multiple subs will help even out room response. With a proper sub setup you won't be able to tell where the bass is coming from. A second sub adds approximately 3-6dB to your baseline.

2) Equalize it, because your room will not have perfect acoustics and that is especially detrimental to bass frequencies

If you just need a sub to pick up the bottom end of a couple bookshelf speakers for causal listening, you can get away with less for sure. If you have a big HT and you want that chest slam, it can get a lot more expensive. Smaller rooms obviously require less power/size to give you that experience.

This is a graph from my computer room setup. Notice how poorly the room measured, and how perfectly it was corrected. This took 5 mins tops and makes a very noticeable difference:

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-8J56qNL/0/O/i-8J56qNL.png

You can see that between about 40Hz and 120Hz (basically the majority of the common bass range) I had a significant null where I would be losing out. This might have me wondering why my sub sounds like it has no power. My crossover was set at 120Hz. I also had a significant boomy spot between about 20Hz and 40Hz where it would sound way louder than it should.

Like all things regarding HT/stereos, etc. my #1 piece of advice is never pay for something you can't hear or appreciate yourself. If you are in a pretentious high end stereo shop and some guy tells you there is a huge difference between cable A and cable B or amp A and amp B, for example, make sure YOU can also hear that difference before paying for it, and before the guy tells you what you 'should' be hearing. Most likely, that guy couldn't tell the difference between $1000/ft speaker cable and a coat hanger in a blind test 100% of the time. My general rule is if I can't pick something out with high degree of repeatable accuracy in a blind test, it probably isn't worth it and I go with the cheaper choice - otherwise I would have literally paid for nothing haha.

[89coupe]

You can calibrate SVS subs.

I haven't seen or heard anything that comes close to the performance for the money.

You should have pulled the trigger on the Ultra;)

I think I recall you buying a Paradigm Sub12

Not even close to the performance of the SVS.

[blairtruck]

man i have the SB1000
that 16 must be ridiculous
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/BlairTruck/IMG_3623_zpsa0302a2a.jpg

[b_t]

Originally posted by 89coupe
You can calibrate SVS subs.

I haven't seen or heard anything that comes close to the performance for the money.

You should have pulled the trigger on the Ultra;)

I think I recall you buying a Paradigm Sub12

Not even close to the performance of the SVS.

doubt he'd agree

he bought a sealed sub, the SVS is ported. kinda two different things altogether

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by 89coupe
You can calibrate SVS subs.

Not even close to the performance of the SVS.


You can calibrate any sub to varying degrees with a third party devices as per my previous explanation. SVS subs do not come with a device like the PBK-1.

When did you A/B test a calibrated SUB12 vs the SVS in your listening environment?





Originally posted by b_t


doubt he'd agree

he bought a sealed sub, the SVS is ported. kinda two different things altogether

This. Two very different subs (though SVS also makes sealed units). They're not even the same size. I also won't buy another SVS product after how poorly the PC-12 Plus performed. Disassembling it also showed me that build quality left something to be desired. Each to their own.

[89coupe]

Originally posted by b_t


doubt he'd agree

he bought a sealed sub, the SVS is ported. kinda two different things altogether


SVS makes a sealed version for both the Ultra 13 & 16

13
https://www.svsound.com/products/sb13-ultra
16
https://www.svsound.com/products/sb16-ultra

[89coupe]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt


You can calibrate any sub to varying degrees with a third party devices as per my previous explanation. SVS subs do not come with a device like the PBK-1.

When did you A/B test a calibrated SUB12 vs the SVS in your listening environment?



My budddy was a Paradigm rep. We tested dual SUB12's at my place, it was underwhelming.

My PB13-Ultra has performed better then anything I have heard in the same price range.

[ICEBERG]

Some people know some of the serious audio $hit i had over the years here. I had 20K B&W speakers which i down graded to Paradigm Signature S8's to then Down to Signature S6's and now use 4 grand B&W speakers that i can tell you sounds good as my 20k Speakers were. I don't know if my hearing is not good as when i was 30 but at almost at 50 i know i can't tell the difference with some speakers anymore.

That goes with the subs i had over the years. I sold subs that cost me 12 grand down to 5 grand Paradigm Sub 1 to now i own Paradigm DSP sub. I can't tell the difference anymore. They all had great base, they all shook the room, they all had chess rattling performance. But now days i turn the volume down on my subs that it is more settle and doesn't rattle all my wife's china down stairs. :D

The advice i give most people is to upgrade your components fist before your speaker system. If the sub you have sounds great maybe upgrade the pre/pro or your amp first with the money. Trust me that will make a bigger difference in your room. A good Audio equipment is what makes your speakers shine at the end.

just my 2 cents guys.:)

[b_t]

Originally posted by 89coupe



SVS makes a sealed version for both the Ultra 13 &amp; 16

13
https://www.svsound.com/products/sb13-ultra
16
https://www.svsound.com/products/sb16-ultra

The sealed 13 isn't going to outperform a Sub 12. It's kind of surprising how (output wise) it is basically the same as a Martin Logan 1500X, and it actually costs more than the 1500X does. So much for internet direct.

What is "performance" anyway... Sheer volume? Crazy low end extension? Perfect transparency and blending with tower speakers? Strong midbass (which is stupid but I keep seeing guys testing their subs to 200hz ... oh well)? A lot of serious HT would say performance = good bass in every seat, so they always recommend you run multiple subs to cover the peaks and valleys.

If performance is bang for your buck, you can get a DIY sub kit for $400 USD. Build it yourself and that sealed box 18" is actually louder and goes deeper than the PB13... and you can have four of them for the price of one PB13.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by 89coupe


My budddy was a Paradigm rep. We tested dual SUB12's at my place, it was underwhelming.

My PB13-Ultra has performed better then anything I have heard in the same price range.

If it's the one I'm thinking of, he seemed to just sell Paradigm, not work for them as a product representative. I tried to buy from him but unfortunately pricing didn't work out.

A sealed 12" sub is not going to have more sheer output than a ported 13" sub. If that's all you want, then huge & ported is the way to go. They are very different products.

What are you using to room-equalize your PB13?

[tsi_neal]

Originally posted by b_t


The sealed 13 isn't going to outperform a Sub 12. It's kind of surprising how (output wise) it is basically the same as a Martin Logan 1500X, and it actually costs more than the 1500X does. So much for internet direct.

What is &quot;performance&quot; anyway... Sheer volume? Crazy low end extension? Perfect transparency and blending with tower speakers? Strong midbass (which is stupid but I keep seeing guys testing their subs to 200hz ... oh well)? A lot of serious HT would say performance = good bass in every seat, so they always recommend you run multiple subs to cover the peaks and valleys.

If performance is bang for your buck, you can get a DIY sub kit for $400 USD. Build it yourself and that sealed box 18&quot; is actually louder and goes deeper than the PB13... and you can have four of them for the price of one PB13.

:werd:

The best subwoofer choice I've done was get a second, then 2 more. DSP was a close second. I would guess most of the time 2x1000 dollar subs will out perform a single 2000 dollar sub. In all cases correct room placement matters, DSP is nice as it helps cheat the room, usually giving good performance from less than ideal spots but it has limitations that aren't a factor with good placement.

On the topic of performance for the money of the PB-13 Ultra... DIY is not everyone's style but for those who are into it will FAR outdo the SVS, for less money. If wood working is your thing it could looks as good or better.

[r3ccOs]

2 x kicker solo baric in a ported box + pheonix gold amps + west side connection bow down

all the baaaasss you need

[Alterac]

15" dr. crankenstein, in a bandpass box. all day long.
The World Is Mine.

[b_t]

Have any of you guys heard Rhythmik subwoofers before?

Was looking around to source drivers for a DIY project and they are the only ones in that space marketing themselves for music and not just massive bass. The price is a little steep, but if that servo control stuff works I think they fit my criteria better than all the Dayton/TC Sounds/repurposed car audio stuff out there

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by b_t
Have any of you guys heard Rhythmik subwoofers before?

Was looking around to source drivers for a DIY project and they are the only ones in that space marketing themselves for music and not just massive bass. The price is a little steep, but if that servo control stuff works I think they fit my criteria better than all the Dayton/TC Sounds/repurposed car audio stuff out there

Yup. A family member has dual Rythmik F15HP's in their HT that I have heard many times. They are pretty great. Well known for their music capability as well, not just HT.

My parents have a Paradigm Servo 15 as well, still going strong ~17 years later. Servo technology was more impressive back then but it's a little more common now.