Engineers breaking into ER/IBD - 2017 Perspective

[killramos]

I figure there are probably a couple of people on here who might be able to comment on this topic so here it goes.

Has anyone on here with an engineering background broken into the equity research / investment banking groups, particularly focusing on energy divisions at banks/boutiques, here in Calgary?

Been doing a lot of research on the topic and find that most everything is very heavily tailored to US/New York focused positions and firms and I wanted some perspective on the local market here in Calgary. Tough finding too much of a Calgary perspective on sites like WSO so why not beyond.

Just not liking where I am at and I am doing and feel like making a change and doing a bit of a 180 on the career. I think the skill set I have developed in industry could be readily applied to a lot of the investment analyst/research associate positions I see posted. But I am obviously lacking some of the specific financial background.

I am a 4 year Reservoir Engineer, one year of which I rotated into BD/M&A, PEng eligible (just waiting on apega) and I am currently taking my MBA in the evenings ( though I have only just started so that's not really much of an asset right now ). University grades shouldn't be a problem if that is a consideration.

Basically what I am curious about is am I wasting my time applying for banking positions with my current experience level ( am I even possibly going to get called back for interviews ) or should my focus be on building out my resume for another few years until I have the MBA and PEng. behind me?

My other concern is if my experience is OK is me wanting to take my MBA a couple nights a week going to be a deal breaker ( I realize the hours expected of entry level analysts ).

[ Yes I know I know, another killramos thread whining about his most-people-would-kill-for-it O&G job, I am just trying to actively make changes to move forward into something I will actually enjoy ]

I don't know if I am building things up in my mind out of proportion with reality but I would love to hear some of your opinions.

TIA guys

:goflames:

[ExtraSlow]

From our discussions, I wonder if what you really need is some time in a similar role in a different company.

[you&me]

I have a couple of friends that have taken this path and another that's in the midst of doing the MBA "getting ready to be a banker" thing.

Now, this isn't my wheelhouse, so my familiarity with it is arms-length and anecdotal, but from what I've seen, to successfully transition to I-banking in Calgary requires some connections lest you be starting at the very bottom all over again.

Depending on who you already know, it's never too early to start networking.

GL

[killramos]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
From our discussions, I wonder if what you really need is some time in a similar role in a different company.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just don't think the positions are really out there for my level of experience. Have pursued a few avenues and there are a lot of brick walls and empty promises out there.

I wrote a bunch more but I deleted it as I was starting to ramble. End of the day I'm just trying to consider some different options.

[vw_rabbit2.5]

why go the MBA route and not the CFA? I thought an IBD/ER role would require a CFA designation?

[killramos]

I find the MBA content more personally interesting and relevant. As far as I know CFA is not actually required, moreso if you are trying to get an analyst position with an undergrad degree only. I looked into the CFA, decided against it.

But then again, what do I know. Hence the thread.

Most of the positions I have seen list a PEng or MBA as being an acceptable alternative to CFA.

[austic]

My friend that did it went the PEng and CFA route. From what he has told me most Calgary based opportunities value the CFA over the MBA by far. :dunno:

[Disoblige]

What type of roles would someone potentially get if they had their P.Eng + CFA?
As examples, post some job listings right now on current opportunities (current or expired, doesn't matter).

Just curious myself.

[killramos]

Originally posted by Disoblige
What type of roles would someone potentially get if they had their P.Eng + CFA?
As examples, post some job listings right now on current opportunities (current or expired, doesn't matter).

Just curious myself.

The ER job that caught my eye and kind of got me rolling on this a bit has this ( not publicly posted ).


Research Associates play an integral role in the Equity Research department by providing crucial assistance to our Equity Research Analysts. Individuals in this role are learning and developing the techniques and skills necessary for investment analysis and research of securities. The Research Associate works closely with the Research Analyst to develop financial forecasts and provide recommendations on particular stocks. Associates typically gain an in-depth understanding of the financial and operational issues within a particular sector, gaining valuable skills, knowledge, and relationships. This position is based in our Calgary, Alberta office.

Job Requirements
Qualifications & Skills:
• A university degree in business, engineering, geology or geophysics is required
• A P.Eng, MBA, CA/CPA designation or enrolment in/completion of the Chartered Financial Analyst
(CFA) program is an asset
•Work experience in a financial, engineering, analytical, corporate development or M&A capacity in the
oil & gas sector is an asset
• Strong accounting, financial modeling, graphing, and analytical skills
• Excellent command of Microsoft Suite, with a particular emphasis on Excel
• Experience using mapping software such as geoScout would be an asset
• Strong written and verbal communication skills
• Capital Markets knowledge/experience would be an asset
• Experience using Bloomberg and FactSet would be an asset
• Good business judgment and decision-making skills
• Ability to perform under pressure and meet tight deadlines, sometimes for extended periods of time
• Ability to multi-task and manage several on-going projects at the same time
• Energetic, self-motivated, hardworking and detail-oriented

Requirements seem to vary a bit from bank to bank and ER is a bit different than IBD from what I have seen. All the banks seem to kindof have open opportunities of some kind in ER and IBD on their websites if you look.

[riander5]

Yea and how much can I make? I want me some 50-100% banker bonuses.

I know a guy who was a res eng when i worked at the producer I was at. He then got a job doing M&A research with first energy. No CFA or MBA. Maybe he was an exception to the rule?

[XylathaneGTR]

Originally posted by Disoblige
What type of roles would someone potentially get if they had their P.Eng + CFA?
As examples, post some job listings right now on current opportunities (current or expired, doesn't matter).

Just curious myself.
My exgirlfriend with an engineering background works for a major securities firm. While she doesn't have any CFA designations, several that she works with do have PEng+CFA; their roles were very specific - analysts and evaluations work with respect to brokering large O&G asset transactions. This is all I was exposed to through her, but I'm sure there are more opportunities.

It seemed pretty active and quite busy at the time we were together. Everyone seemed to be doing pretty well, though it was definitely a more demand, higher stressed environment than what I had been exposed to in O&G at the time (Owner project roles). Definitely some wicked smaht people there, but also seemed like a much smaller job market - she got the job through personal connections.

Edit: The job description Ramos posted is pretty much exactly what my ex was doing. She made more than I did (as a project EIT at an owner - probably makes more than me now still, too.)

[killramos]

I think utilizing a network to get a job is definitely going to have to be a part of this, which is unfortunate as I really dislike begging for jobs from friends/family and overall I think nepotism in general is pathetic but you gotto the play the game the way it's laid out.

I don't want to be barking up that tree if I am not qualified for the jobs though and again I would rather not get too far in the process and find out I have to quit my MBA if I don't have to.

If I am laid off and nothing comes up before September I would probably just accelerate my degree and/or take an internship which is another option to get a foot in the door.

I am sure any of the IBD and ER guys who actually browse beyond will chime in after 10 pm when they are done work :rofl:

[Pacman]

My wife has a p.eng and a CFA.

She went from reservoir engineering at a big E&P company into their mergers and acquisitions / corporate development group.

She has a lot of interaction with the investment banks and has developed a very good relationship with some of them. Every once in a while she gets a call asking if she would be interested in a job at one of the investment banks (she's not, as she's not interested in working the hours required for those roles).

So, doing the p.eng, CFA, finance role at an E&P with exposure to banks and then jumping ship might be a pathway with less resistance.

[killramos]

That was kindof my intention before my company got rid of their corporate development group. I probabaly wouldn't have even started the MBA for another few years if at all if that was the case tbh.

Instead I'm using the MBA to give me more options.

[90_Shelby]

Originally posted by killramos
I am just trying to actively make changes to move forward into something I will actually enjoy


New thread started on this statement.
:hijack:

[R154]

Will you split that idea into your own new thread?

I very much (likely like others too) want to have that discussion. I don't want to poison this thread with it though...

[Marsh]

Last couple years, Engineers --> ER associate was a easier transition to make as they wanted associate with technical expertise. However, the last year or two, the ER business is going through changes on a broader level (Less interest/justification for ER reports, as most of them are garbage anyways). Especially with the oil downturn, there has been downsizing and letting people go, and these teams already have very little headcount to begin with.

I don't think I've seen too many (if at all) engineers go to IBD without an MBA or very least CFA. Mind you, IBD is probably one of the most competitive industries to break into, and your competing with not just hundreds of business grads every year from U of C/ U of A, but also Queens, UBC, Rotman, Ivey etc.

Not saying it can't be done, but its difficult as hell and most people don't last there as the hours are crazy. Expect 90-120 hours a week at a shop like RBC, no less than 60 at a boutique. ER probably about 60-80 a week, and 110+ hours during earnings season.

ER is probably the easier path to break into given your experience etc, but its something you have to be serious about...not just cause your current job sucks. Hope that helps a bit

[Disoblige]

Slightly different question, but anyone here or know someone who is in commodity trading for an oil producer? Curious on the type of job and how an engineer can transition into that.

[The BMW Guy]

I was an engineer that went to the finance side (not IB or ER) but on a trading desk. 2/3 of the traders at my shop are former engineers. Some with P.Eng, most without (myself included). Only one has an MBA and he is the only one completing his CFA. It does seem like they hire a lot of engineers.

It definitely can't hurt to get your MBA. I would consider the CFA as well though, especially for IB/ER.

Definitely utilize the shit out of your networks and make new contacts. I once bought a car part off of Kijiji and the guy ended up being a partner at an investment firm. Met up for coffee a few times after and he introduced me to others.

Become a master at Excel. You should be able to do everything in Excel without a mouse. Mastering VBA will make you stand out a lot as well when you start applying around.

Good luck.

[austic]

So what sort of compensation do these positions make for a 110 hour work week?

[Disoblige]

Originally posted by austic
So what sort of compensation do these positions make for a 110 hour work week?
I'm not sure the $/hr would compare, as O&G is usually a pretty relaxed environment for the amount you get paid. But it does appear a lot of those looking to change can't see themselves working in engineering for O&G for their whole career. And what's the point if you're miserable all the time?

Anyone who is laid off should start a garage hedge fund :D

[Buster]

Originally posted by austic
So what sort of compensation do these positions make for a 110 hour work week?

The world of most "processional" type careers is setup thusly: education -> associate-ship of some kind -> partner of some kid.

The middle part is the grind, where you are under-compensated for the hours and stress. This is relative to the partners, but not always relative to the population as a whole. The "grind" usually happens through your 20's and early 30's.

Law works this way explicitly. Accounting does as well, more or less

Banking is similar, where you might be an associated for a few years before getting to jump into a director/VP type role. You're still doing the grind, but at a higher level.

Doctor's have residency. Hockey players have the AHL.

etc.

the problem is that the brass ring (say and MD or partner at a bank) suffers from the ratio problem. How many guys get to the mult-million bonus years after grinding, vs how many burn out, or flip over to industry, etc.

As long as you are happy being grist for the mill during your "sleep under the desk" phase, and understand what the cost is, then fine.

The problem is that the big compensation in most of these environments is a protected club, and they hang that carrot to get guys to work their butts off.

[killramos]

I think I am more unique in the sense that I actually want to do the work and the compensation doesn't actually concern me at this point ( you don't have to believe me ).

I get paid well to put up with a job i dislike doing in a completely toxic environment 40 hours a week right now, as far as I'm concerned getting paid well to do something I find interesting and fulfilling for 100 hours a week sounds pretty comparable. Although grass is always greener does apply in all situations.

Add in that I think the likelihood of my job lasting through the summer is slim to none I see no real downside to trying ER/IBD.

I actually WANT to work which is the most obscene part of all this.

[bjstare]

Originally posted by killramos


I actually WANT to work which is the most obscene part of all this.

#thingsmillenialssay

[killramos]

:dunno:

[blitz]

I don't mean to be a dick, but have you ever worked really hard before? Like really, really hard?

[killramos]

Yup, have you?

I hesitated to even respond because what kind of stupid question is that? What answer were you expecting?

[riander5]

Maybe you would have said.. no im a special snowflake

[you&me]

Originally posted by killramos
Yup, have you?

I hesitated to even respond because what kind of stupid question is that? What answer were you expecting?

Do you know anyone that's been in an entry level role in IB? Reading some of the bitch-fest threads on WSO don't quite paint the whole picture :rofl:

I think the point was, there's "working hard" in O&G in Calgary over the last ~10 years, and then there's working hard doing the grunt work during earnings season at a 'Bank.

[killramos]

Originally posted by you&me


Do you know anyone that's been in an entry level role in IB?



I do know a couple analysts at some of the bigger shops in town. None of them engineers, I am interested in an engineering perspective on the transition.

Gotto start somewhere.

I have absolutely no misconceptions on what is involved.

[realazy]

The whole getting bored at work thing is real. I'm at a producer too. With activity levels so low, people are struggling to stay occupied. People want to work at work, to feel like they are being productive and learning.There's only so much internet you can browse.

[you&me]

Originally posted by killramos


I do know a couple analysts at some of the bigger shops in town. None of them engineers, I am interested in an engineering perspective on the transition.

Gotto start somewhere.

I have absolutely no misconceptions on what is involved.

You're right. As long as you're going in with eyes wide open. And as long as you're being honest with yourself about how hard you really (actually, truly) worked in O&G...

No offense, but your posts sort-of came off as: "I'm bored with work, so I think I might try something new... How about i-banking? I work hard now, so I can work hard there"

As I said in an earlier post and it's been repeated since, network the shit out of your contacts. Banking is a very small and tight-knit sector in Calgary so swallow some pride, ask people you know to make introductions, etc. From what I hear, there is no shortage of people looking to do the exact same as you currently and relationships more than anything will make or break your transition. It's never too early to start (yesterday would be better than today). It would suck to go through the MBA and then have to change course again because you can't find a gig with a bank.

Again, GL.

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by blitz
I don't mean to be a dick, but have you ever worked really hard before? Like really, really hard?
This is an interesting question. I haven't had a job where my output was measured by volume since my part time work back in University days. Ever since then I've been judged on quality of ideas and a bunch of "soft skills", none of which is really fairly called "working hard".

I have a buddy who is in drafting, and when his company has deadlines, he works eighty hour weeks to meet deadlines. That's working hard.

[The BMW Guy]

Originally posted by you&me
I think the point was, there's "working hard" in O&G in Calgary over the last ~10 years, and then there's working hard doing the grunt work during earnings season at a 'Bank.

Agreed. They seem to be worlds apart. I compare the stress/time commitment as similar to pulling all-nighters for a final exam. Except every day is a final exam. I have heard stories of consistently staying up until 2am, getting up at 6:00am and doing it all over for weeks on end. Of course, this could just be isolated to my small sample size of people I know and they could be playing it up more than what actually happens.

Either way, if you truly have the drive to succeed in that world then you'll have the drive to figure out how to get into that world too. Networking is gold.

[blitz]

Originally posted by killramos
Yup, have you?

I hesitated to even respond because what kind of stupid question is that? What answer were you expecting?

Well, you have 4 years experience at what sounds like a pretty low expectation/unrewarding job. It also sounds like you've spent most of that job with low levels of direct responsibility.

I worked 60hrs/week for about 3 years in a production roll, it got to me after a while. I personally would go nuts doing 80+ hours a week.

There's a huge difference between talking about 100+ hour week and actually having experience doing it for an extended amount of time.


Originally posted by ExtraSlow

This is an interesting question. I haven't had a job where my output was measured by volume since my part time work back in University days. Ever since then I've been judged on quality of ideas and a bunch of "soft skills", none of which is really fairly called "working hard". .

Same situation. I'm busy, but not in a way that requires crazy hours.

[R154]

Originally posted by The BMW Guy


Agreed. They seem to be worlds apart. I compare the stress/time commitment as similar to pulling all-nighters for a final exam. Except every day is a final exam. I have heard stories of consistently staying up until 2am, getting up at 6:00am and doing it all over for weeks on end. Of course, this could just be isolated to my small sample size of people I know and they could be playing it up more than what actually happens.

Either way, if you truly have the drive to succeed in that world then you'll have the drive to figure out how to get into that world too. Networking is gold.


I mean this entirely genuinely. What exactly is the work you are doing that is 6am to 2am for weeks on end?

I like to think I work hard and work long hours when I have more than 2 projects on the go... But recently I havent had as much to do as I would like.

Certainly not 120 hours a week even when I am balls out running.

[Buster]

banking associates are basically the only remaining slave labour.

[Disoblige]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow

This is an interesting question. I haven't had a job where my output was measured by volume since my part time work back in University days. Ever since then I've been judged on quality of ideas and a bunch of "soft skills", none of which is really fairly called "working hard".
This post struck a nerve with me a little bit, but ExtraSlow, please correct me if I am wrong because I don't know you or ever met you.

I've worked with a lot of people who have great ideas, pretty knowledgeable, but lacks the skills to execute, or execute promptly. So in engineering as an example, I believe it's equally important to execute in a timely manner as it is to present quality ideas. I'm sure it's more apparent in the financial/business sector, but there is many aspects of the engineering role measured by volume and how quick you execute all your tasks/projects. And this range/sense of urgency between people is incredibly big, as in some people are the slowest people ever and some people are awesome and just gets things done.

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by Disoblige

This post struck a nerve with me a little bit, but ExtraSlow, please correct me if I am wrong because I don't know you or ever met you.

I've worked with a lot of people who have great ideas, pretty knowledgeable, but lacks the skills to execute, or execute promptly. So in engineering as an example, I believe it's equally important to execute in a timely manner as it is to present quality ideas. I'm sure it's more apparent in the financial/business sector, but there is many aspects of the engineering role measured by volume and how quick you execute all your tasks/projects. And this range/sense of urgency between people is incredibly big, as in some people are the slowest people ever and some people are awesome and just gets things done.

Totally agree, if all you have is "great ideas" and you can't execute, you aren't particularly useful in most organizations. I can't speak to anyone else, but I've always gotten more recognition/bonus/promotion from my "soft skills" like ideas and communication rather than any amount of grinding out technical work. That's not to say I haven't had to do a certain amount of grinding in every one of my positions, because I have.

No offense taken.

[holden]

I have a cousin in IBanking. Started off at TD in Toronto, now works at Barclays in New York. I stayed at his condo in the Financial District during a visit to TO. I remember he would leave before I got up in the morning (let's assume he starts at 7-8pm). He would get home around 8-9pm (this would include eating out since it's all expensed). He would work some more on his laptop for 2-3 hours. He would normally work Saturdays and occasionally Sundays.

I think he made $110K base out of university, along with the usual big bonuses typical in that industry. I'm sure he makes much more now, but I can't imagine working those hours.

[89coupe]

My brother-in-law went from an engineering roll to securities banking, he obtained his Masters as well though.

Currently in a Vice President roll at TD Securities.

[R154]

Originally posted by 89coupe
My brother-in-law went from an engineering roll to securities banking, he obtained his Masters as well though.

Currently in a Vice Presient roll at TD Securities.

I heard he is going to role on over to another prescient next month. Catch them grammar & spelling Nazis.

The irony is I fuck up nearly every one of my posts in a similar mannor.

No one answered my question about what the actual job is?? I'm curious to know what takes so much time? Is it a lot of reading and making complicated spreadsheets?

[89coupe]

Originally posted by R154


I heard he is going to role on over to another prescient next month. Catch them grammar & spelling Nazis.

The irony is I fuck up nearly every one of my posts in a similar mannor.

No one answered my question about what the actual job is?? I'm curious to know what takes so much time? Is it a lot of reading and making complicated spreadsheets?

Fucking iPhone auto correct, haha. I hate it!

I have no idea what it entails.

I hate being corrected, especially by a fucking phone.

Good luck with your pursuit.

[R154]

Oh man. I can't make an error free post to save my life. 99% if my posts are from my phone.

Yeah, I could never be in finance. I am definitely a design centric individual.

I have a tough enough time staying interested in my personal finances let alone a proficiency with someone else's money split over a hundred hours a week. Nah, I'd ruin a company or 10.

Trading would be really interesting though.

[Marsh]

Originally posted by R154


I heard he is going to role on over to another prescient next month. Catch them grammar & spelling Nazis.

The irony is I fuck up nearly every one of my posts in a similar mannor.

No one answered my question about what the actual job is?? I'm curious to know what takes so much time? Is it a lot of reading and making complicated spreadsheets?

The job is basically doing all the financial modelling for potential deals, as well as preparing the pitchbooks. The reason the hours are stupid is that during the 9-5, the Managing directors and others are meeting with clients all day and pitching them deals. Then when they get back to the office at 5, they pass on the work that needs to be done (ie. model potential acquisition of so and so company, and prepare pitchbook). So the analysts/associates start doing this in the evening and night, sending out what they've done and getting emails back about things that need to be fixed, fortmatted etc. A lot of it is petty revisions, but that's basically what they do. This is assuming they do not have a "live deal" to work on. If there is a live deal happening, then for a few days the analyst are going to be pulling close to all nighters.

I have a friend at BMO that works as an associate, and he says they have about 40-50 pitchbooks and models in rotation constantly on client companies, as well as creating new ones for new potential deals.

tldr: Higher ups source deals during day, analyst/associates do grunt work at all hours to support deal sourcing.

[Buster]

Originally posted by R154
Oh man. I can't make an error free post to save my life. 99% if my posts are from my phone.

Yeah, I could never be in finance. I am definitely a design centric individual.

I have a tough enough time staying interested in my personal finances let alone a proficiency with someone else's money split over a hundred hours a week. Nah, I'd ruin a company or 10.

Trading would be really interesting though.

You'd be surprised how many professional "finance" people aren't super proficient at personal finance stuff.

Relatively speaking, I suck at personal finance stuff. (Part of it, is that it's hard for me to justify spending a bunch of time on it, when I can make money spending that time doing something else. In other words, sub-optimal personal finance planning is more efficient than the alternative.) They're just different skills. I'm a lot more comfortable modeling cash flows on a corporation, than I am sitting down with my own money. Most banker types are also "revenue" focused people rather than "expense management" focused people. To put it delicately.

Also, a lot of the traders I know keep their earnings in very low risk portfolios, since their day-job involves constantly managing risk. Last thing you want to do

[R154]

Originally posted by Marsh


The job is basically doing all the financial modelling for potential deals, as well as preparing the pitchbooks. The reason the hours are stupid is that during the 9-5, the Managing directors and others are meeting with clients all day and pitching them deals. Then when they get back to the office at 5, they pass on the work that needs to be done (ie. model potential acquisition of so and so company, and prepare pitchbook). So the analysts/associates start doing this in the evening and night, sending out what they've done and getting emails back about things that need to be fixed, fortmatted etc. A lot of it is petty revisions, but that's basically what they do. This is assuming they do not have a "live deal" to work on. If there is a live deal happening, then for a few days the analyst are going to be pulling close to all nighters.

I have a friend at BMO that works as an associate, and he says they have about 40-50 pitchbooks and models in rotation constantly on client companies, as well as creating new ones for new potential deals.

tldr: Higher ups source deals during day, analyst/associates do grunt work at all hours to support deal sourcing.


Thank you very much for that. I completely understand how those hours build up. I have to admit, that I think it would be a bit of a meat grinder, that. I would be turned into human mousse within a week. That stress level would be on par with a law associate (according to suits).

Sounds like a young man's game. I can't see my wife putting up with that for 5-8 years of our young working life. Imagine if you have kids...



Originally posted by Buster


You'd be surprised how many professional "finance" people aren't super proficient at personal finance stuff.

Relatively speaking, I suck at personal finance stuff. (Part of it, is that it's hard for me to justify spending a bunch of time on it, when I can make money spending that time doing something else. In other words, sub-optimal personal finance planning is more efficient than the alternative.) They're just different skills. I'm a lot more comfortable modeling cash flows on a corporation, than I am sitting down with my own money. Most banker types are also "revenue" focused people rather than "expense management" focused people. To put it delicately.

Also, a lot of the traders I know keep their earnings in very low risk portfolios, since their day-job involves constantly managing risk. Last thing you want to do

Thanks for the shining endorsement. I can assure you that my experience in financial responsibility leads me to cars and car parts. I'm not an innately financially minded guy like my brother is. This strikes me as a career path you're born to do. I'm sure you can "fall in to" it, however, someone with a gut sense about these things would probably be the guy rising to partner.

[Buster]

Originally posted by R154



Thanks for the shining endorsement. I can assure you that my experience in financial responsibility leads me to cars and car parts.

Not sure what you mean?

[R154]

Originally posted by Buster


Not sure what you mean?

I meant that entirely sincerely. Thanks for thinking I would be capable of that type of job. There is no way.

I contest that I am not capable. If my brother didn't force me to budget properly I'd be renting a room in Dover trying to park my used Gallardo on the street. (I don't have a Gallardo, neither should any of us if we care about our financial wellbeing, except Jordan and newlextacy).

I just put money down on a toy with there being a real possibility that I could be out of work before I pay it off.

I'm a financial idiot. They should have never given me credit or money.

[Buster]

Originally posted by R154


I meant that entirely sincerely. Thanks for thinking I would be capable of that type of job. There is no way.

I contest that I am not capable. If my brother didn't force me to budget properly I'd be renting a room in Dover trying to park my used Gallardo on the street. (I don't have a Gallardo, neither should any of us if we care about our financial wellbeing, except Jordan and newlextacy).

I just put money down on a toy with there being a real possibility that I could be out of work before I pay it off.

I'm a financial idiot. They should have never given me credit or money.

ah.

I thought I offended you or something, which definitely wasnt what I was trying to do.

[R154]

Haha, never.

[Super_Geo]

I made the switch from engineering to finance. Here are some thoughts:

Equity Research
Loves engineers, but likely a lower pay ceiling than IB/A&D/S&T due to the fact that it is a cost center now with no direct profit generation at the big banks (ER used to get a cut of IB and S&T profits, but they are starting to silo ER in its own division). Most people in the industry don't take research reports that seriously, except from a handful of analysts who have great track records. Hours are manageable outside of reporting season, and you build a very good skill set and meet a lot of senior management at the companies you cover. CFA would be necessary to make the switch. Excellent exit opportunities. CFA > MBA.

Acquisitions & Divestitures
Probably the most natural path for engineers. Should be able to start as an associate if you have experience that matches up. Always answering to IB's needs, and can be treated like second class citizens if the people in IB are dicks. Called upon for reserves modelling, asset valuation, etc. Very good exit opportunities to go back to E&Ps with, either in business development or internal A&D. Pay is likely better than ER, but short of IB. Hours aren't as bad as IB. CFA > MBA, but neither are critical.

Investment Banking
Not a huge need for an engineering background. Not very common path from engineering w/o an MBA. As has been covered by others in above posts, a lot of the work at the analyst/associate roles is excel/powerpoint grunt work to pitch decks and updating comps so that ideas can be pitched to potential clients. Infamous for the number of hours, but stress comes from sheer volume of work, tight deadlines, attention to detail, etc. and not from costly decisions that lose money (at least at the more junior levels). Perhaps the most broad exit opportunities. Anecdotally, a lot of the people in IB see it more as a stepping stone vs being a career banker, and it's the easiest to burn out from. MBA > CFA.

Sales & Trading
Engineers have an easier route to trading than sales. Potentially the best hours wise, and much more of a meritocracy than investment banking, which is very hierarchical. So in that sense, very easy to climb the ranks quickly if you can prove yourself. In Calgary, it's all commodities trading (oil, nat gas, power) and little to no equities trading, which takes place in TO or NY.

Sales: establish relationships/onboard corporate clients, then pitch trading/hedge ideas to them. Bring in trading business and tack on a sales commission onto the trade, which can vary depending on the size of the trade and the sophistication of your client. Trading commission can range from $100 on a small trade to $1MM+ on a big trade. MBA > CFA.

Trading: Make markets for the sales guys to show their clients, and then inventory and manage the resulting risk from those trades. There isn't as big a focus on proprietary trading (speculative trading) these days with all the new banking regulations in the US, but being outside the US, there is still risk taking going on depending on which shop you're at. CFA > MBA.

Rough payscale below. Base salaries should be pretty close, and the bonus range are for normal years, but of course if the stars align the bonus numbers can overshoot by a large margin, or they can be 0 on a bad year.

Analyst: 70-100k base, 20-50k bonus
Associate: 80-110k base, 25-150k bonus
VP: 110-160k base, 50-250k bonus
Director: 120-200k base, 75-350k bonus with significant upside outliers
MD: 150-300k base, 100-500k bonus with significant upside outliers

Analyst -> Associate: 2-4 yrs
Associate -> VP: 2-4 yrs
VP -> Director: 3-8yrs (some people max out at VP and never move up)
Director -> MD: 3-???yrs (some people max out at Director and never move up)

[Super_Geo]

A few Resources:

CFA Jobline (https://www.cfasociety.org/calgary/Pages/Jobline.aspx): check often for finance postings

Wall Street Oasis (http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums): Sure, there are a lot of college kids who have no idea what they're talking about on there, but there are also quite a few knowledgeable people in the industry on there who post good info.

Matt Levine on Bloomberg (https://www.bloomberg.com/view/contributors/ARbTQlRLRjE/matthew-s-levine): great articles on all things finance. Very knowledgeable and great writing style. I'd recommend reading every article on here.


CFA: I'd recommend signing up to write Level 1. Having it on your resume instantly puts you on better footing than people w/o it. Probably don't need to get level 2 or 3.

MBA: Helps for IB, can't hurt for the others, but a pretty big investment both on both time and money.

In my opinion, the most important and easiest thing to self-learn:
VBA
You have no idea how much of modern finance runs on Excel. Everyone has tedious workflow, and having someone join the team that doesn't know shit about the business but knows VBA means they can still automate your workflow. Learn it and get really, really good at it, and then pitch the shit out of it. Because truthfully, there is likely very little transferable knowledge from engineering, and they'll know that... but knowing you can automate grunt work is valuable to any team.

[killramos]

Thanks for all that. Really good info.

I have been spending some free time on some of the WSO excel guides etc. and will look into the VBA side of things. Not a bad skill to develop in any case. Been a while since I coded literally anything though.

Doing CFA level one in any case though? Didn't really think of that. You think there is any value to a CFA on top of MBA?

[Super_Geo]

Having an MBA and L1 CFA would make your resume stand out. Whether or not the incremental benefit once you're on the job is worth all the incremental effort is another question... but I think from your current position, anything you can do stand out is good.

Or, you could finish your MBA, and just write 'CFA Level 1 Candidate - June 2017' without actually signing up to write it... if you get the job, sign up and write, and if you don't then change it to 'CFA Level 1 Candidate - December 2017.' Rinse and repeat ;)

From the CFA Jobline website, here is a IB analyst/associate opening at RBC. One of the better shops in town for IB due to their size and volume of deal flow. The hours, however, are also one of the worst.
LINK (https://www.cfasociety.org/calgary/Jobline/2016-17%20Career%20Services/2017-02-23_RBC%20-%20Global%20Energy%20Investment%20Banking%20Opportunity%20-%20February%202017.pdf)

[argent]

Ha.. very interesting strategy… :p
Though, just a thought (feel free to disregard).. this is technically violate CFA ethical standard… u can call yourself a candidate but you need to sign up to write the exam. If you don’t then that would be an (obvious) lie. Just saying.



Originally posted by Super_Geo
Having an MBA and L1 CFA would make your resume stand out. Whether or not the incremental benefit once you're on the job is worth all the incremental effort is another question... but I think from your current position, anything you can do stand out is good.

Or, you could finish your MBA, and just write 'CFA Level 1 Candidate - June 2017' without actually signing up to write it... if you get the job, sign up and write, and if you don't then change it to 'CFA Level 1 Candidate - December 2017.' Rinse and repeat ;)

From the CFA Jobline website, here is a IB analyst/associate opening at RBC. One of the better shops in town for IB due to their size and volume of deal flow. The hours, however, are also one of the worst.
LINK (https://www.cfasociety.org/calgary/Jobline/2016-17%20Career%20Services/2017-02-23_RBC%20-%20Global%20Energy%20Investment%20Banking%20Opportunity%20-%20February%202017.pdf)