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View Full Version : Question about right of way/who goes first



v2kai
03-22-2017, 11:20 PM
I'm curious what others believe is the correct course of action for several intersection scenarios.

Setting up the scene:
1. A free flowing main road runs east west (The through road)
2. The intersecting road running north south is controlled by two stop signs
3. Car A is heading southbound
4. Car B is heading northbound

Scenario 1:
Car A and Car B arrive at the intersection simultaneously. Car A wants to turn left onto the through road. Car B wants to proceed straight through the intersection. Who goes first?

Scenario 2:
Car A arrives first and wants to turn left onto the through road but traffic is too heavy to proceed. Car B arrives after Car A and wants to proceed straight through the intersection. A gap opens in the traffic on the through road, who goes first?

Scenario 3:
Car A arrives first and wants to turn left onto the through road but traffic is too heavy to proceed. Car B arrives after Car A and wants to turn right onto the through road. A gap opens in the traffic on the through road, who goes first?

Scenario 4:
Car A arrives first and wants to turn left onto the through road but traffic is too heavy to proceed. Car B arrives after Car A and wants to proceed straight through the intersection. Several other cars behind Car B also want to proceed straight through the intersection. When a gap appears does Car A go first? wait for all straight through traffic before proceeding? or go immediately after Car B?


(copy and paste for the lazy)
Scenario 1:
Scenario 2:
Scenario 3:
Scenario 4:

toastgremlin
03-23-2017, 06:24 AM
Cars turning left never have the right of way in Alberta unless explicitly signed, if memory serves. Or I guess in the case of a four-way stop.

There's a two-way stop like you describe in my neighbourhood and if you're waiting to turn left it can be quite a while before you get to go between people coming straight out of the cul-de-sac on the other end and people going past on the through-road.

thinmyster
03-23-2017, 06:36 AM
Scenario 1: B
Scenario 2: B
Scenario 3: B
Scenario 4: B (Id probably find a way to sneak left as the line of cars is coming to stop at the stop sign)

16hypen3sp
03-23-2017, 06:58 AM
Scenario 1: B
Scenario 2: B
Scenario 3: B
Scenario 4: If I was the left turner, as B proceeded from the stop line, I'd be proceeding out to the middle of the intersection and then making my left turn immediately when B passes.

Buster
03-23-2017, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by toastgremlin
Cars turning left never have the right of way in Alberta unless explicitly signed, if memory serves. Or I guess in the case of a four-way stop.

There's a two-way stop like you describe in my neighbourhood and if you're waiting to turn left it can be quite a while before you get to go between people coming straight out of the cul-de-sac on the other end and people going past on the through-road.

I think you're right.

BUT

if the left turning car arrives at the intersection first, comes to a complete stop, then proceeds into the intersection turning left...then I'm not sure the second car is allowed to stop and then proceed INTO the intersection until it is clear.

Not sure how that works.

Disoblige
03-23-2017, 08:02 AM
Old, but accurate.

http://roadrules.ca/content/right-way-two-way-stop


Once the gap in traffic on the through road is sufficient, left-turners must yield to drivers who wish to cross the intersection. If, however the left turner has started to make the turn and is already in the intersection, the other driver must yield.

Xtrema
03-23-2017, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Disoblige
Old, but accurate.

http://roadrules.ca/content/right-way-two-way-stop



That's how I always treat it as well, but some drivers trying to be nice and wave me thru my left turn 1st and took me a sec try to figure out if it's a trap or someone who doesn't know the rules.

Disoblige
03-23-2017, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by Xtrema


That's how I always treat it as well, but some drivers trying to be nice and wave me thru my left turn 1st and took me a sec try to figure out if it's a trap or someone who doesn't know the rules.
It's because they don't know the rules and treat it as if it was "first to stop, first to go".

acedia
03-23-2017, 09:47 AM
I have issues with this all the time. Some thoughts:

Scenario 2 -quite often when I'm car B, the person turning left will go ahead of me. I think a LOT of people figure they were there first and it's their turn to go.

Scenario 4 - I'm with 16hypen3sp. I would not sit there and let a dozen vehicles come up to the stop sign and then go. There's an intersection close to me where I think I'd literally sit there for 15 minutes some days doing that. Unless the subsequent people in line all roll through the stop sign like it's a yield sign, there will be time to make a turn while they are stopping, without too much effort (start to roll out while one car is just leaving the sign).

nissanK
03-23-2017, 11:06 AM
Since I'm a diagram guy.....

http://i.imgur.com/swUZnA9.png

Scenario 1: Car B
Scenario 2: Car B - Since they are essentially starting to move at the same time for the gap.
Scenario 3: Car B
Scenario 4: Car B first, then car A after Car B. All the other cars behind Car B need to stop at the stop sign next.

ExtremeSi
03-23-2017, 11:16 AM
I always thought it was "first to stop, first to go" at stop signs. That's how I've always treated it and expect other drivers to. Doesn't matter if you're turning left, right or going straight. Whoever stopped first gets to go next once their path is clear.

Disoblige
03-23-2017, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by ExtremeSi
I always thought it was "first to stop, first to go" at stop signs. That's how I've always treated it and expect other drivers to. Doesn't matter if you're turning left, right or going straight. Whoever stopped first gets to go next once their path is clear.
It pretty much is to an extent. Because chances are if you are turning left and you stopped well in advance, you move forward first, the person (Car B) going straight would yield to you.

It's just in those moments where it's pretty close to call, left turner would yield.

In my opinion, this falls into one of the common misconceptions on traffic rules, such as:

1) Yes, you can turn left onto a one way on red lights even in the 2nd or 3rd turning lane (one way onto one way).
2) Yes, you can turn into a driveway/parking lot when there is a single yellow line on the road.
3) Yes, you can change lanes in the middle of an intersection, as long as it is safe to do so.

Thaco
03-23-2017, 11:33 AM
basically as soon as a vehicle that does not have a stop sign goes through the intersection, it resets everything to as if they'd arrived at the same time and its normal right of way. (right turn first, then straight, then left)

although 90% of the time i encounter this the other person has no clue so i am always very cautious

Inzane
03-23-2017, 07:08 PM
As far as I've always understood a 2-way stop is supposed to work the same as a 4-way stop, for the people with stop signs.

That means if you're turning left from a stop sign and you got to the stop line BEFORE the car opposite you (also at a stop sign), YOU get to go before they do provided it's clear to go.

ShermanEF9
03-23-2017, 08:18 PM
whoever gets there first goes. in the event you arrive at the sign at the same time, straight has right of way.

Sonic
03-23-2017, 09:58 PM
Wow lol this is as divisive as the whole zipper merge versus early merge debate...:rofl:

I always assume whoever arrives first, but now I'm not so sure, I got my license in Vancouver when I was 16, I'm now 37 and have lived in Calgary since I was 24...I honestly don't know the real answer lol

16hypen3sp
03-24-2017, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by Disoblige
1) Yes, you can turn left onto a one way on red lights even in the 2nd or 3rd turning lane (one way onto one way).

Sorry for the derail but where is the law on this? Some people think it's only from first turn lane into lane one (curb lane to curb lane) but I've always thought what you say is the correct way.

blairtruck
03-24-2017, 08:09 AM
imo 2 way is not a 4 way. car B has Row is all situation presented above. straight has ROW over turning all the time. if there are 5 straight cars and 1 turning car all go straight turning wait. but it doesnt matter becasue people will just turn when the fell like it anyways.

Zero102
03-24-2017, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by 16hypen3sp


Sorry for the derail but where is the law on this? Some people think it's only from first turn lane into lane one (curb lane to curb lane) but I've always thought what you say is the correct way.

http://www.qp.alberta.ca/1266.cfm?page=2002_304.cfm&leg_type=Regs&display=html



Red traffic lights
54(1) When, at an intersection, a red light is shown by a traffic control signal, a person driving a vehicle that is approaching the intersection and facing the red light
(a) shall stop the vehicle
(i) immediately before the marked crosswalk that is on the near side of the intersection, or
(ii) if there is not any marked crosswalk, then immediately before the intersection,
and
(b) shall not, until a traffic control signal instructs the person that the person is permitted to do so, drive the vehicle so that the vehicle or any portion of the vehicle is
(i) across the marked crosswalk and into the intersection, or
(ii) if there is not any marked crosswalk, into the intersection.
(2) Notwithstanding subsection (1), unless a traffic control device prohibits a right turn from being made on the red light, a person driving a vehicle may turn the vehicle and proceed right at the intersection if that person first stops the vehicle and yields the right of way
(a) to any pedestrians that are in the intersection, and
(b) to any vehicles that are in or approaching the intersection.
(3) Notwithstanding subsection (1), at the intersection of 2 one-way streets, a person driving a vehicle may, unless a traffic control device otherwise directs or prohibits a left turn from being made on the red light, turn the vehicle and proceed left at the intersection, if the driver first stops and yields the right of way
(a) to any pedestrians that are in the intersection, and
(b) to any vehicles that are in or approaching the intersection.
(4) When, at a place other than an intersection, a red light is shown by a traffic control signal, a person driving a vehicle that is approaching the signal shall stop the vehicle before reaching the closer of the signal or the nearest crosswalk, if any, that is in the vicinity of the signal.


This specifies that you may turn left on a red light from a one way to a one way. Section 26 covers what lanes may be used for turning and the basic answer is, you can turn left on red from the second or third lane provided you stop first and there is a sign stating that you are in a turning lane and there is no sign prohibiting turns on red lights.

16hypen3sp
03-24-2017, 09:06 AM
Section 26(4) says to keep as close to the left side of the one way road and turn left onto the left side of the one way road.

So I guess interpretation? Does "left side" mean the entire left side of the roadways? Or does it mean 'curb to curb'?

Disoblige
03-24-2017, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by Zero102

This specifies that you may turn left on a red light from a one way to a one way. Section 26 covers what lanes may be used for turning and the basic answer is, you can turn left on red from the second or third lane provided you stop first and there is a sign stating that you are in a turning lane and there is no sign prohibiting turns on red lights.
This. You will see some one-way to one-way intersections where there is signs indicating no left turns on red (such as the lights on 3rd St, 9th Ave SW.)

But on other one-way to one-way turns, there is no signage saying that, in which you can turn left on red onto 9th ave from 1st lane into 1st lane, 2nd lane into 2nd lane, and 3rd lane into 3rd lane after stopping first.

rx7boi
03-24-2017, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by ShermanEF9
whoever gets there first goes. in the event you arrive at the sign at the same time, straight has right of way.

That's how I do it. If I see that we'll be approaching the stop sign at the same rate, I'll purposely slow down and time it so that he gets to stop first.

Of course, you'll always get the idiot who isn't paying attention and still tries to wave you through. Worse yet, you'll get the other kind of idiot who thinks they stopped first or that their rolling stop was sufficient.

16hypen3sp
03-24-2017, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by Disoblige

This. You will see some one-way to one-way intersections where there is signs indicating no left turns on red (such as the lights on 3rd St, 9th Ave SW.)

But on other one-way to one-way turns, there is no signage saying that, in which you can turn left on red onto 9th ave from 1st lane into 1st lane, 2nd lane into 2nd lane, and 3rd lane into 3rd lane after stopping first.

Excellent, good to know. Does the same apply for right turns on red? For example, facing west on 50th St. (one way) at the intersection with 49th Ave (one way) in Red Deer. There are two right turn lanes - the centre lane is designated straight or right turn. Can I turn right on red from this lane (lane 2 into lane 2)?

Traffic_Cop
03-24-2017, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by ExtremeSi
I always thought it was "first to stop, first to go" at stop signs. That's how I've always treated it and expect other drivers to. Doesn't matter if you're turning left, right or going straight. Whoever stopped first gets to go next once their path is clear.

Good grief!, how on earth did you pass your drivers test?. This is covered in the drivers handbook as well should have been taught to you by your instructor. Sorry to come down on you, but out of all the posts on this topic, this one actually concerned me.

speedog
03-24-2017, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by ExtremeSi
I always thought it was "first to stop, first to go" at stop signs. That's how I've always treated it and expect other drivers to. Doesn't matter if you're turning left, right or going straight. Whoever stopped first gets to go next once their path is clear.

I would surmise that you'd be one of those who has no clue what to do in an uncontrolled four way intersection then. There's one about a block away from my house and it is literally amazing how many people do not know the yield to the right rule - the number of times I've almost been hit or have been given the finger by the driver who was supposed to yield in this intersection when I had the right of way is absolutely astounding.

Do people not actually pay attention to signage in an intersection or lack thereof or are they just ignorant of the rules we are legally supposed to drive by in Alberta?

TomcoPDR
03-24-2017, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by Traffic_Cop


Good grief!, how on earth did you pass your drivers test?. This is covered in the drivers handbook as well should have been taught to you by your instructor. Sorry to come down on you, but out of all the posts on this topic, this one actually concerned me.

The good thing that came out of this post was it brought you back from retirement. I miss the Traffic Cop timbits of the month section, maybe consider restarting that again? "left signal, is to indicate you're about to make a left turn, or left lane change, etc"

speedog
03-25-2017, 07:56 AM
Use signals?

My good man, wtf are you smoking? Just on another recent beyond thread we had actual living and breathing beyond members defending their reasons why they didn't have to use signals.

ExtraSlow
03-25-2017, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by speedog
or are they just ignorant of the rules we are legally supposed to drive by in Alberta? This is the reason. :werd:

Maxt
03-25-2017, 09:38 AM
Can we get this thread put up on a billboard at H22x and 37 st sw? So many people think its how Extreme SI thinks it is.. Drives me nuts...no pun intended...

J-hop
03-25-2017, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by speedog
Use signals?

My good man, wtf are you smoking? Just on another recent beyond thread we had actual living and breathing beyond members defending their reasons why they didn't have to use signals.

Which thread is this haha. I need to read it.

I imagine the arguement went something like "when no one is around I don't use my signals". Great so you are taking something that should become something you automatically do subconsciously when changing lanes and trying to condition yourself to instinctually respond in opposite ways given a small variable change. The intelligence of some drivers is astounding!!!

speedog
03-25-2017, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by J-hop


Which thread is this haha. I need to read it.

I imagine the arguement went something like "when no one is around I don't use my signals". Great so you are taking something that should become something you automatically do subconsciously when changing lanes and trying to condition yourself to instinctually respond in opposite ways given a small variable change. The intelligence of some drivers is astounding!!!

Here ya go, link (http://forums.beyond.ca/st2/why-no-signals/showthread.php?s=&threadid=402266).

Marsh
03-25-2017, 07:57 PM
Scenario 1:B
Scenario 2:B
Scenario 3:A
Scenario 4:B

Disoblige
03-25-2017, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by 16hypen3sp


Excellent, good to know. Does the same apply for right turns on red? For example, facing west on 50th St. (one way) at the intersection with 49th Ave (one way) in Red Deer. There are two right turn lanes - the centre lane is designated straight or right turn. Can I turn right on red from this lane (lane 2 into lane 2)?
This applies to right turns as well. Example, many dual right turns in downtown like 9th Ave onto Macleod Tr South or turning onto 5th Ave towards Memorial Tr. (one way onto one way). You can turn on red on both turning lanes, not just the lane closest to the curb.

ExtremeSi
03-25-2017, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Traffic_Cop


Good grief!, how on earth did you pass your drivers test?. This is covered in the drivers handbook as well should have been taught to you by your instructor. Sorry to come down on you, but out of all the posts on this topic, this one actually concerned me.

I passed it fine first time thank you. In my 15+ years of driving I have never heard anyone mention this until this thread. Unless I am misunderstanding something here.

If there is a 2-way stop intersection and the car facing you is turning left in front of you and they stop first, you're saying that you have the right of way if you're going straight? Common sense tells me that you should let them go first since they stopped first. If there is a line of cars behind you, they can all go straight before the person facing you turns? That doesn't seem right.



Originally posted by speedog


I would surmise that you'd be one of those who has no clue what to do in an uncontrolled four way intersection then. There's one about a block away from my house and it is literally amazing how many people do not know the yield to the right rule - the number of times I've almost been hit or have been given the finger by the driver who was supposed to yield in this intersection when I had the right of way is absolutely astounding.

Do people not actually pay attention to signage in an intersection or lack thereof or are they just ignorant of the rules we are legally supposed to drive by in Alberta?

No I know exactly what to do in uncontrolled intersections. I also think they are a horrible idea. A stop or yield sign is a lot cheaper than an easily-avoidable car accident. Anyway, I pride myself in knowing (or thought I did) the rules of the road and am very surprised if I am wrong on this thread.

16hypen3sp
03-26-2017, 06:48 AM
Originally posted by Disoblige

This applies to right turns as well. Example, many dual right turns in downtown like 9th Ave onto Macleod Tr South or turning onto 5th Ave towards Memorial Tr. (one way onto one way). You can turn on red on both turning lanes, not just the lane closest to the curb.

I figured so. Reason I asked was because the intersection in my example was a major point of contention recently in a facebook group. Some thought you could turn right on red from any lane, others thought only from the curb lane.

blairtruck
03-26-2017, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by ExtremeSi


I passed it fine first time thank you. In my 15+ years of driving I have never heard anyone mention this until this thread. Unless I am misunderstanding something here.

If there is a 2-way stop intersection and the car facing you is turning left in front of you and they stop first, you're saying that you have the right of way if you're going straight? Common sense tells me that you should let them go first since they stopped first. If there is a line of cars behind you, they can all go straight before the person facing you turns? That doesn't seem right.




No I know exactly what to do in uncontrolled intersections. I also think they are a horrible idea. A stop or yield sign is a lot cheaper than an easily-avoidable car accident. Anyway, I pride myself in knowing (or thought I did) the rules of the road and am very surprised if I am wrong on this thread. common sense says a car turning left in front of a car going straight means straight wins. hopefully you tell everyone else you know so others will know also.

Traffic_Cop
03-26-2017, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by ExtremeSi


I passed it fine first time thank you. In my 15+ years of driving I have never heard anyone mention this until this thread. Unless I am misunderstanding something here.

If there is a 2-way stop intersection and the car facing you is turning left in front of you and they stop first, you're saying that you have the right of way if you're going straight? Common sense tells me that you should let them go first since they stopped first. If there is a line of cars behind you, they can all go straight before the person facing you turns? That doesn't seem right.




No I know exactly what to do in uncontrolled intersections. I also think they are a horrible idea. A stop or yield sign is a lot cheaper than an easily-avoidable car accident. Anyway, I pride myself in knowing (or thought I did) the rules of the road and am very surprised if I am wrong on this thread.

Not only are you wrong, the saddest thing about your original post is that you "expect everyone" to do the same. This entitlement is wrong and potentially dangerous.

Shame you passed your test the 1st time, even more sad that after 15yrs you still cant drive correctly.

Gestalt
03-26-2017, 01:22 PM
I can't believe how many people screw up and think it's first come first serve.

When I'm turning and someone going straight is trying to be nice, I change course and go straight.

So annoying and completely lacks common sense

JustinL
03-27-2017, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by ExtremeSi
If there is a line of cars behind you, they can all go straight before the person facing you turns? That doesn't seem right.


This is the biggest problem with bigger traffic volumes. If the rule was followed 100% the left turner and everyone behind him has to wait until all of the oncoming traffic clears... which may not happen until rush hour is over.

Thaco
03-27-2017, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by JustinL


This is the biggest problem with bigger traffic volumes. If the rule was followed 100% the left turner and everyone behind him has to wait until all of the oncoming traffic clears... which may not happen until rush hour is over.

realistically if the person going straight has time to go in the traffic break, you should be able to make the left turn right behind him at practically the same time... most of the time.

Gestalt
03-27-2017, 10:12 AM
Take a cue from UPS and FedEx. Avoid left turns like the plague.

ExtremeSi
03-30-2017, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by JustinL


This is the biggest problem with bigger traffic volumes. If the rule was followed 100% the left turner and everyone behind him has to wait until all of the oncoming traffic clears... which may not happen until rush hour is over.

This is what doesn't make sense to me. And why is a 2-way stop different than a 4-way stop? At a busy 4-way stop sign when multiple cars approach at the same time, the person on the right has the right of way. Doesn't matter if you're going straight or turning. Whoever stopped first, goes first. So why is it different for a 2-way stop? What is the reason?

Also, this is all I can find in the driver's handbook about stop signs at intersections:

"Three and four-way stops: Intersections where stop signs are located at all corners are often referred to as “courtesy corners.” Vehicles approaching from each direction are required to stop. All drivers must use courtesy and caution. Courtesy is to allow the vehicle that arrived first to proceed first. If two vehicles arrive at the same time, courtesy allows the vehicle on the right to proceed first. You must not proceed unless you can do so safely."

Does anyone know where 2-way stop signs are covered?

Traffic_Cop
03-30-2017, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by ExtremeSi


This is what doesn't make sense to me. And why is a 2-way stop different than a 4-way stop? At a busy 4-way stop sign when multiple cars approach at the same time, the person on the right has the right of way. Doesn't matter if you're going straight or turning. Whoever stopped first, goes first. So why is it different for a 2-way stop? What is the reason?

Also, this is all I can find in the driver's handbook about stop signs at intersections:

"Three and four-way stops: Intersections where stop signs are located at all corners are often referred to as “courtesy corners.” Vehicles approaching from each direction are required to stop. All drivers must use courtesy and caution. Courtesy is to allow the vehicle that arrived first to proceed first. If two vehicles arrive at the same time, courtesy allows the vehicle on the right to proceed first. You must not proceed unless you can do so safely."

Does anyone know where 2-way stop signs are covered?

The more of your posts i read, the more i wish someone could revoke your licence. "At a busy 4 way stop it doesn't matter who arrived 1st, the peson on the right goes 1st"???? Where are you getting this?.

speedog
03-30-2017, 10:30 AM
Page 73 folks, uncontrolled intersections - link (https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.albertadriverexaminer.ca/driverhandbook.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjwwdqB0v7SAhWEKWMKHa_OCawQFghUMAw&usg=AFQjCNF7TenMKUSASNkWsVQlh7RvLGrraA) .

Gestalt
03-30-2017, 02:19 PM
I can't beleive we are still here on something so simple.

J walking. Now that one is stupid.

Can you believe, that on your residential street, if some asshole is parked in front of your house, and you park across the street, you have to walk all the way to the end of the block to get home.

And can you believe there are offiers that will actually ticket you?

ExtremeSi
03-30-2017, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Traffic_Cop


The more of your posts i read, the more i wish someone could revoke your licence. "At a busy 4 way stop it doesn't matter who arrived 1st, the peson on the right goes 1st"???? Where are you getting this?.

I'm starting to question if you even know the rules of the road. At a 4-way stop whoever stops first, goes first. If everyone arrives at the same time then the person on the right goes first. I never said it doesn't matter who arrived first.

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with anyone. Just trying to find out what the actual law is and why it is that way. Because what you are saying doesn't seem to make common sense. Telling me I don't know how to drive isn't helping anything.

Gestalt
03-30-2017, 04:24 PM
Common sense is the guy going straight through or to your right has the right of way.

Say there was no one there, you turn left, guy straight through hits you. Are they going to take votes, flip a coin read tarrot cards when determining fault?

Let's not get ridiculous here.