NDP trying to unionize engineers

[mazdavirgin]

https://www.apega.ca/news/apega-urges-province-to-retain-collective-bargaining-exemption-for-professionals/

Looks like the NDP is trying to appeal to their voter base with this stupid ass union shit. Personally have 0 interest in ending up forcibly unionized because the NDP decided that well the unions need more members. Also would really hate to see the shit show that would result if engineers have to deal with the bullshit of union seniority and strikes.

I would suggest anyone who holds a P.Eng. to either participate in the survey or mail/email the government telling them to get bent.

[bjstare]

I'll be doing so.

There are too many unions as is, and they're too powerful. I despise them, and usually find that anyone that is strongly pro-union is a lazy sack of shit that has been brainwashed into thinking the company exists to serve the employee, not the other way around (i.e. how it is in real life).

[Hallowed_point]

LOL...this is a joke right?

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin
Personally have 0 interest in ending up forcibly unionized

If you truly believed in free markets and capitalism, people would be free to join whichever associations they wanted to, nobody would be forcing anyone to do anything :dunno:

I find it interesting on one hand you find merit in APEGGA (a completely useless body that has basically zero authority over anything of any importance) but find none in the concept of unionizing Engineers.

From what I've seen, especially in O&G, engineers would be the exact type of people that need a union. Very classic field case of "yes master, may I have another?" when it comes to poor treatment and breaking of labour laws :dunno:

Not that I am pro union. Just find it hilarious that you are complaining about a government enabled monopoly (APEGGA) possibly being replaced by unions that actually represent their members :rofl:

Engineers also have the right to unionize in many 1st world nations. Canada and the USA being some of the few that don't.

[Gestalt]

I'm not a good reader. Where did it say they are being forced to unionize?

I can't believe they were restricted and prohibited from unionizing. Didn't know that.

Definitely support working man's rights, whether you think it's lazy or not.

[ExtraSlow]

Not sure if I'm reading this right, but this would apply to engineers that work for companies where the labor force is already unionized, right?

Would not apply to workplaces that are currently non-union?

If that's correct, it'll provide a strong disincentive to work for those unionized companies.

[pheoxs]

Forcibly forming a union I am not a fan of however it does bother me that engineers are exempt from the provincial rules for hours of work and overtime. I've had employers in the past push 100 hour weeks during crunch time (hint it's always crunch time) and chalk it all into your salary.

[Gestalt]

I don't see how. Every person I know in a union, whether pipe fitters, electricians, truck drivers, teachers loves their Union, the higher standards, the rights, and would never work non unionized again.

[ickyflex]

Originally posted by Gestalt
I don't see how. Every person I know in a union, whether pipe fitters, electricians, truck drivers, teachers loves their Union, the higher standards, the rights, and would never work non unionized again.

That's cause everyone you know is a peasant

[schurchill39]

Originally posted by cjblair
I'll be doing so.

There are too many unions as is, and they're too powerful. I despise them, and usually find that anyone that is strongly pro-union is a lazy sack of shit that has been brainwashed into thinking the company exists to serve the employee, not the other way around (i.e. how it is in real life).
I agree with this statement 100%.



Originally posted by HiTempguy1


If you truly believed in free markets and capitalism, people would be free to join whichever associations they wanted to, nobody would be forcing anyone to do anything :dunno:

I find it interesting on one hand you find merit in APEGGA (a completely useless body that has basically zero authority over anything of any importance) but find none in the concept of unionizing Engineers.

From what I've seen, especially in O&G, engineers would be the exact type of people that need a union. Very classic field case of "yes master, may I have another?" when it comes to poor treatment and breaking of labour laws :dunno:

Not that I am pro union. Just find it hilarious that you are complaining about a government enabled monopoly (APEGGA) possibly being replaced by unions that actually represent their members :rofl:

Engineers also have the right to unionize in many 1st world nations. Canada and the USA being some of the few that don't.
Engineers shouldn't unionize because the safety of the public, and the environment etc come first and foremost before personal gain and benefit. By joining a union you are putting yourself before your duties. APPEGA is a governing body and thus removes the regulation out of the hands of the government. What do they do for us? For most of us probably nothing on a day to day basis besides collect fees. But for the profession as a whole they defend the title of "engineer", they deal with malpractice or ethical issues, and they let us do our own damn thing without the government meddling.

Unions are a joke, allow the market to dictate pay/workload and responsibilities. Am I overworked as an O&G engineer? Maybe. But I recognize that sometimes you have to put your time in and it all balances out in the end. I take pride in my work ethic and my ability to negotiate my own compensation without some lazy union telling me that simply putting in time means I am entitled to something instead of off of actual skill based merit. If you don't like the way your employer treats you quit and go somewhere else. With this recession as an exception, if you were worth anything as a professional engineer you wouldn't struggle to find a job.

[schurchill39]

EDIT: Double post

[killramos]

Did HiTemp just say he wasn't pro union? Quick someone quote him for truth.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by schurchill39

Engineers shouldn't unionize because the safety of the public, and the environment etc come first and foremost before personal gain and benefit.

:rofl: Well, I mean if you are going to believe, at least you are in it 100%.


Originally posted by schurchill39
[B]
APPEGA is a governing body and thus removes the regulation out of the hands of the government. What do they do for us? For most of us probably nothing on a day to day basis besides collect fees. But for the profession as a whole they defend the title of "engineer", they deal with malpractice or ethical issues, and they let us do our own damn thing without the government meddling.

So basically, its unregulated with little government oversight. Sounds like a great idea, what could possibly go wrong?



But I recognize that sometimes you have to put your time in and it all balances out in the end

Says every sucker ever :rofl:

Like I said, I'm not saying engineers should be unionized. I'm saying they should by all means have the right to do so :dunno: The one thing you don't take into consideration is that a COMPANY holds much more sway over ones actions than whatever association (in this case, APEGGA) you are with. To act all high and mighty and righteous, when there are very clear examples in the past couple years of how your assertion that APEGGA causes engineers to put "society" first is complete and utter bullshit is laughable.

With a union, said engineer could actually feasibly put up a defense to stop companies from doing public harm, as they would actually have someone backing them (the union) versus an organization in companies pockets.

You do understand unions are formed by the people wanting them... right? :rofl:


Originally posted by killramos
Did HiTemp just say he wasn't pro union? Quick someone quote him for truth.

I'm not. I'm very neutral on them :dunno: I've worked both private and public sector, and for the most part, I've been treated very well regardless as I simply don't take shit from anyone.

They have their pluses and minuses. If you want to quote me, you can look back throughout the years where I've specifically stated I'd rather be non-union as it realistically has held me back. But it has brought some stability, which I appreciate.

[Gestalt]

Unions are part of free markets. Regulation against minions is anti free markets.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by schurchill39

I agree with this statement 100%.



Engineers shouldn't unionize because the safety of the public, and the environment etc come first and foremost before personal gain and benefit. By joining a union you are putting yourself before your duties. APPEGA is a governing body and thus removes the regulation out of the hands of the government. What do they do for us? For most of us probably nothing on a day to day basis besides collect fees. But for the profession as a whole they defend the title of "engineer", they deal with malpractice or ethical issues, and they let us do our own damn thing without the government meddling.

Unions are a joke, allow the market to dictate pay/workload and responsibilities. Am I overworked as an O&G engineer? Maybe. But I recognize that sometimes you have to put your time in and it all balances out in the end. I take pride in my work ethic and my ability to negotiate my own compensation without some lazy union telling me that simply putting in time means I am entitled to something instead of off of actual skill based merit. If you don't like the way your employer treats you quit and go somewhere else. With this recession as an exception, if you were worth anything as a professional engineer you wouldn't struggle to find a job.

You are an engineer, not a doctor. :rofl:

And the guy you quoted. I have found that people that emotional are never thinking straight. He's never been in a union either.

[JRSC00LUDE]

The day a huge national Union hired us to build their new local office BECAUSE we are non union and therefore could meet their budget was a hilarious day for me.

Thieves and hypocrites.

[Gestalt]

You are missing representing the facts.

[schurchill39]

Originally posted by Gestalt


You are an engineer, not a doctor. :rofl:

Doctors, lawyers, engineers, dentists are pretty much all the same as far as professions and their duty to the public. If a doctor is negligent in their duties they could kill someone, if an engineer is negligent in their duties they could kill someone.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by schurchill39


Doctors, lawyers, engineers, dentists are pretty much all the same as far as professions and their duty to the public. If a doctor is negligent in their duties they could kill someone, if an engineer is negligent in their duties they could kill someone.

:rofl:

You are giving yourself WAY to much credit.

No one is in danger if an engineer on strike. This is not about doing your job badly. This is about public danger if you went on strike.

Christ, they can't change a car tire without their wives help. In some life threatening emergency, we could just call a 2 year sait grad to save us from the engineers on strike apocalypse.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


Unions are part of a mixed market, not part of free market capitalism
No. Regulation is against free markets.

And no such thing as free market capitalism.

It's either free markets, or capitalism. Very different.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
Not sure if I'm reading this right, but this would apply to engineers that work for companies where the labor force is already unionized, right?

Would not apply to workplaces that are currently non-union?

If that's correct, it'll provide a strong disincentive to work for those unionized companies.

Correct... You would be forcibly unionized if for example you worked as an engineer in a union shop so for example Enmax, City of Calgary, CP, CN, etc...

Seems like the techs are out pissing and moaning in the engineering threads again.

:dunno:

Chip on their shoulders?

[Stuart]

Originally posted by Gestalt


:rofl:

You are giving yourself WAY to much credit.

No one is in danger if an engineer on strike. This is not about doing your job badly. This is about public danger if you went on strike.

Christ, they can't change a car tire without their wives help. In some life threatening emergency, we could just call a 2 year sait grad to save us from the engineers on strike apocalypse.

Just because you haven't encountered an engineer that is directly responsible for issues of public safety does not mean they do not exist. But after having read a lot of your posts I don't expect you to understand how that could be the case. Keep being an uninformed fool.

[HiTempguy1]

:rofl: You seem to be the only one with a chip on your shoulder. Do we need a "where did the union touch you?" diagram? You're the only one bringing up differences. Sorry, can a mod change the thread title to "engineer union hate circle jerk only pinky rings allowed" thread?

I just find it amusing how much of a hate on some of you have for unions. JR at best has a right to his opinion with experience, but that is the experience of one person. Most of you have read some articles in the National Post and called it a day lol.

If unions did half the outright evil crap some corporations do, I could see your arguments. Otherwise, it mainly sounds like sour grapes :rofl:

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1
:rofl: You seem to be the only one with a chip on your shoulder. Do we need a "where did the union touch you?" diagram? You're the only one bringing up differences. Sorry, can a mod change the thread title to "engineer union hate circle jerk only pinky rings allowed" thread?

I just find it amusing how much of a hate on some of you have for unions. JR at best has a right to his opinion with experience, but that is the experience of one person. Most of you have read some articles in the National Post and called it a day lol.

If unions did half the outright evil crap some corporations do, I could see your arguments. Otherwise, it mainly sounds like sour grapes :rofl:

You're not impacted by the changes so why do you feel the need to apparently come in here and tell us all how great it's going to be to have to join unions against our will?

There's a big difference between joining a union willingly and being forced to become part of a union.

But again the second we post about engineering issues we get a bunch of techs with chips on their shoulders posting nonsense about how engineers are useless yada yada or how they apparently can't change tires.

:facepalm:

Yeah we get you guys need to come to the internet to talk yourselves and your lack of education up but frankly we don't care so maybe go make your own thread to bitch about engineers...

[lasimmon]

I didn't even need to open the thread to know who would be spouting garbage in here.

[Xtrema]

:facepalm:

That's it guys, please help Greg built up Alberta party so I can vote NDP out as PC is no longer my party.

[lasimmon]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1
:rofl: You seem to be the only one with a chip on your shoulder. Do we need a "where did the union touch you?" diagram? You're the only one bringing up differences. Sorry, can a mod change the thread title to "engineer union hate circle jerk only pinky rings allowed" thread?



You jelly

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin


You're not impacted by the changes so why do you feel the need to apparently come in here and tell us all how great it's going to be to have to join unions against our will?

First, you don't have to join a union against your will, holy overreaction. Second, I never said unions were great (this is one of the most hilarious parts, you suffer so badly from UDS that you just completely make things up) :dunno: You keep saying that, but its really not the case. But even if it were, as a lot on here like to trot out the old tired saying, "you don't have to work there".


Originally posted by mazdavirgin

There's a big difference between joining a union willingly and being forced to become part of a union.

I agree.


Originally posted by mazdavirgin

But again the second we post about engineering issues we get a bunch of techs with chips on their shoulders posting nonsense about how engineers are useless yada yada or how they apparently can't change tires.

Well that wasn't me. And the most disparaging thing I've said is for someone to take some odd morally righteous stance that them being an engineer and being part of APEGA gives them some weird sense of duty which is complete crap, almost evangelical :rofl:


Originally posted by mazdavirgin

Yeah we get you guys need to come to the internet to talk yourselves and your lack of education up but frankly we don't care so maybe go make your own thread to bitch about engineers...

Seems like you just want to talk down, but that's alright, I don't particularly care about your little internet tantrums :rofl: Does it make you feel better, getting all upset with some random person on the internet and insulting them? Does the big tough engineer need his bottle? :cry:

So basically, in short, you are a little bitch, get over yourself. Don't post in a public forum unless you want public commentary, I'm sure there must be an engineering forum for you to cry somewhere about your irrational, over the top hatred of unions :rofl:


Originally posted by lasimmon


You jelly

No, this shit is hilarious from people I assume to be actual adults :rofl:


Originally posted by mazdavirgin
Also would really hate to see the shit show that would result if engineers have to deal with the bullshit of union seniority and strikes.


What does this even mean? You do understand that a union does not HAVE to have a seniority clause, right? Some do, some don't. As for striking, please tell me of how many strikes you are aware of in Alberta in the last decade? I'll wait for you to find that info. But beyond that, I sincerely doubt anyone would notice if engineers went on strike, just like I sincerely doubt anyone would notice if I did :rofl:

[bjstare]

Originally posted by Stuart

*snip*
Keep being an uninformed fool.

Oh, he will. You can count on it. :rofl:

[lasimmon]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


First, you don't have to join a union against your will, holy overreaction. Second, I never said unions were great (this is one of the most hilarious parts, you suffer so badly from UDS that you just completely make things up) :dunno: You keep saying that, but its really not the case. But even if it were, as a lot on here like to trot out the old tired saying, "you don't have to work

I agree.

Well that wasn't me. And the most disparaging thing I've said is for someone to take some odd morally righteous stance that them being an engineer and being part of APEGA gives them some weird sense of duty which is complete crap, almost evangelical :rofl:

Seems like you just want to talk down, but that's alright, I don't particularly care about your little internet tantrums :rofl: Does it make you feel better, getting all upset with some random person on the internet and insulting them? Does the big tough engineer need his bottle? :cry:

So basically, in short, you are a little bitch, get over yourself. Don't post in a public forum unless you want public commentary, I'm sure there must be an engineering forum for you to cry somewhere about your irrational, over the top hatred of unions :rofl:


No, this shit is hilarious from people I assume to be actual adults :rofl:

Soooo jelly

[Disoblige]

Add that to the long list of another thread ruined by HiTempguy1 due to engineering debate, lol.

[schurchill39]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1
:rofl: You seem to be the only one with a chip on your shoulder. Do we need a "where did the union touch you?" diagram? You're the only one bringing up differences. Sorry, can a mod change the thread title to "engineer union hate circle jerk only pinky rings allowed" thread?
:

I think the better question would be "where did the engineer touch you" because your hate for engineers far surpasses any of our hate for unions.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by schurchill39

I think the better question would be "where did the engineer touch you" because your hate for engineers far surpasses any of our hate for unions.

What? :nut: Please demonstrate any "hatred" or even dislike? Some people in this thread? Sure, the specific people. But engineers? Nope, pretty sure I like people that are of the enginerd persuasion :dunno: If you haven't noticed, one of the easiest way to rile those people up is to insult their profession (hell, you even fell bait to it and it wasn't a comment pointed at you, a clear sign of "chip on shoulder" attitude).


Originally posted by Disoblige
Add that to the long list of another thread ruined by HiTempguy1 due to engineering debate, lol.

Damn me and bringing facts to a thread. Damn me to hell! I honestly just enjoy it now, seeing the engineers get their panties all bunched up :rofl:

[dirtsniffer]

Engineers have a duty to maintain public safety. There is no arguing that point.

Back on track. Fuck I hope I don't have to join a union. I think apega sent me an email about this.

[Maxt]

Originally posted by Gestalt
I don't see how. Every person I know in a union, whether pipe fitters, electricians, truck drivers, teachers loves their Union, the higher standards, the rights, and would never work non unionized again.
Can you tell me what higher standards the pipefitters got over say a non unionized pipefitter, or self employed pipe fitter?

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Maxt
Can you tell me what higher standards the pipefitters got over say a non unionized pipefitter, or self employed pipe fitter?
His comment caught my eye as well. I don't know a single electrician who'd be willing to make such a definitive statement such as "I'd never work non union again". They'd all tell you there are pros and cons to each. The higher standards comment was complete nonsense. Most trades are governed by a multitude of Provincial and Federal guidelines, regulations and codes that the union plays zero part in.

I think Gestalt figured his statement was a quick way to bolster his argument when the reality is it just once again revealed his lack of life experience.

[mazdavirgin]

:dunno: HiTempguy1 can't even form logical arguments and I can't be bothered to read his shit posts... All I can say is he sure feels strongly about topics which have no bearing on him so yeah I'm going with:


Originally posted by lasimmon
Soooo jelly

In either case make sure you fill out the survey or contact the NDP to try to put at halt to this stupidity.

[g-m]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1

Well that wasn't me. And the most disparaging thing I've said is for someone to take some odd morally righteous stance that them being an engineer and being part of APEGA gives them some weird sense of duty which is complete crap, almost evangelical :rofl:

I guess its reasonable that you wouldn't be familiar with the 'responsibility' part of the profession.


I would agree with what seems to be the consensus, fuck this idea.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin
:dunno: HiTempguy1 can't even form logical arguments and I can't be bothered to read his shit posts...

Well you must read them to come to those conclusions. Looks like I have another Beyond stalker :love: Also, you directly quoted and replied, so... You can't form logical arguments and resort to insults. You have no real basis for your blind hatred.

Its ok to admit it, I won't tell anyone :p

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by g-m
I guess its reasonable that you wouldn't be familiar with the 'responsibility' part of the profession.
.

I guess its reasonable that you have no real argument in its favour because its an illogical stance to take.

[dirtsniffer]

Why do you think engineers aren't responsible for public safety?

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer
Why do you think engineers aren't responsible for public safety?

Why do you think engineers are anymore responsible for public safety than any other type of employee?

[schocker]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1
Why do you think engineers are anymore responsible for public safety than any other type of employee?
The other employees don't have to check and stamp the drawings? :confused:

[lilmira]

It depends if the person stayed at holiday inn express or not.

[Maxt]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2

His comment caught my eye as well. I don't know a single electrician who'd be willing to make such a definitive statement such as "I'd never work non union again". They'd all tell you there are pros and cons to each. The higher standards comment was complete nonsense. Most trades are governed by a multitude of Provincial and Federal guidelines, regulations and codes that the union plays zero part in.

I think Gestalt figured his statement was a quick way to bolster his argument when the reality is it just once again revealed his lack of life experience.
Interested to know what the "higher standards" comment pertained to.
Was it employment standards? Job acceptance and workmanship? Candidate choice?
Not sure what rights they have over other workers either, especially self employed tradesman?

[killramos]

HiTemp if I pay the fee will you take the NPPE and show me your pass fail?

Based on your comments in here I have a feeling which way it will go... and even geologists pass that test :poosie:

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer
Engineers have a duty to maintain public safety. There is no arguing that point.

Back on track. Fuck I hope I don't have to join a union. I think apega sent me an email about this.

If engineers went on strike, who would die?

Please compare and contrast to if doctors went on strike as the op compared?

:rofl:

Buncha mechanicslly inept, self importatnt scientific calculator users. Your the reason I have to pull a cab to change a head gasket. :cry:

And I still dont see anyone trying to uniojize you. Just giving you freedoms ypu didnt have.

[lilmira]

What? People don't die now? Oh shit

[killramos]

Originally posted by Gestalt


If engineers went on strike, who would die?

Please compare and contrast to if doctors went on strike as the op compared?

:rofl:

Buncha mechanicslly inept, self importatnt scientific calculator users. Your the reason I have to pull a cab to change a head gasket. :cry:

And I still dont see anyone trying to uniojize you. Just giving you freedoms ypu didnt have.

The funniest part of this post, is this is the "edited" version :rofl:

[dirtsniffer]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1


Why do you think engineers are anymore responsible for public safety than any other type of employee?

LOL. Why is a doctor responsible for public safety and the X ray tech isn't?

[killramos]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer


LOL. Why is a doctor responsible for public safety and the X ray tech isn't?

Lol at least x ray techs don't pretend they are doctors.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Maxt
Interested to know what the "higher standards" comment pertained to.
Was it employment standards? Job acceptance and workmanship? Candidate choice?
Not sure what rights they have over other workers either, especially self employed tradesman?
See, Gestalt did exactly what he does in every single thread he's involved in. If he doesn't have a predetermined response queued up he'll just ignore your post and move on to one he does have a contrived response too.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer


LOL. Why is a doctor responsible for public safety and the X ray tech isn't?

More doctor comparisons. :rofl:

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2

See, Gestalt did exactly what he does in every single thread he's involved in. If he doesn't have a predetermined response queued up he'll just ignore your post and move on to one he does have a contrived response too.

It would just further derale the post further from the main points. It's a general point, not important enough to argue.


Engineers arent as critical for strike as doctors. No one will die if engineers strike. Work might stop, but that's the point. And no one is forcing anyone to do anything, rather fundamental rights are being restored.

[Type_S1]

If engineers unionize in Alberta, or any other critical office staff in O&G (G&G, landman, etc.), the O&G industry in Alberta will be officially dead. No argument on this; there are enough challenges already with all the BS...big money will be gone.

I don't think government employees (ahem...guys on this forum) understand how bad HR is in large energy companies. At my last shop we tried to fire people for both fking up massively on things (causing big $s lost and one lawsuit) and being completely useless at their jobs. HR stepped in and said these staff members had to be put on a "performance improvement plan" first. It's a long process and extremely regulated as large companies are afraid of being sued or having bad press.

[Maxt]

Originally posted by Gestalt


It would just further derale the post further from the main points. It's a general point, not important enough to argue.


:rolleyes:

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Gestalt
It would just further derale the post further from the main points. It's a general point, not important enough to argue.
You're the one who brought it up :eek: :rofl:

I have some respect for a Troll that knows they're a Troll and takes pride in it. A Troll that lacks the self awareness to know they're a Troll is just sad.

[speedog]

Interesting thread but no where have I read that there will be any attempts to unionize engineers and even if the Alberta codes were to change to include engineering professions as one that could be included in a bargaining unit, it doesn't mean it's automatic. Votes would still have to be held and in shops where there is currently no union, chances are quite good that nothing would change. Yeah, some rules may change but being in a union just is not a guarantee.

The topic of mandating the Rand formula in collective agreements will be a touchy subject - some unionized workplaces already have this in their collective agreements while others don't.

People also need to understand whether or not changes to Alberta's code will have the potential to affect their workplace or not - is your workplace federally or provincially mandated? TELUS is a federally mandated workplace and as such, any changes to the Alberta codes would have zero effect on TELUS. Many people have absolutely no clue as to what jurisdiction their workplace falls under and then begin spouting off on topics such as this even though they might not even be affected - do some homework and figure out if you'll really be affected or not.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by Maxt

Can you tell me what higher standards the pipefitters got over say a non unionized pipefitter, or self employed pipe fitter?


As usual, that guy has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. He makes shit up, ignores anything that counters his opinion (no matter how factual) and avoids being challenged by deflection and misdirection.

He doesn't have a fucking clue. He's the smartest person he knows though so I guess that's worth something? :dunno:

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE



As ustual, that guy has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. He makes shit up, ignores anything that counters his opinion (no matter how factual) and avoids being challenged by deflection and misdirection.

He doesn't have a fucking clue. He's the smartest person he knows though so I guess that's worth something? :dunno:

Trudeau and Gestalt have the exact same persona. That is, a young deer in headlights.

Gestalt ignores any rational rebuttal to his claims. There's many examples of that, but mine is the teachers thread.

Trudeau has the tenacity to answer a rebuttal, but it goes like this:

AH, this government, AH, is committed to, AH, Bombardier, and diversity, AH, and diversity.

What a fucked up so called Democracy we have. Quebec has all the perks that Albertans don't have, but our kids pay for it.

Separation NOW!

[zhao]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE



As usual, that guy has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. He makes shit up, ignores anything that counters his opinion (no matter how factual) and avoids being challenged by deflection and misdirection.

He doesn't have a fucking clue. He's the smartest person he knows though so I guess that's worth something? :dunno:

Yup.

He posts like he's a 3rd or 4th year university student. He probably knows 3 tradesmen, 3 office workers, 3 educated people, was told a few things by 3 successful people, etc, and has formed all his opinions based on very limited exposure to each topic.

He acts like everything is fresh, new, etc, because he hasn't been around long enough to see all his ideas are old, and have been either disproven, or viewed as no better or no worse than a lot of other arguments on that topic.

He's the guy that when management says they are introducing some new fresh awesome plan that's going to revolutionize the company and make everyone rich buys 100% into it, because he has no clue the same recycled idea has been sold as fresh 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, etc.

All that is fine, if he was actually learning from his mistakes..... but he's also a giant broken record. He's polishing the same turd arguments over and over, never realizing you can't polish a turd.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE



As usual, that guy has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. He makes shit up, ignores anything that counters his opinion (no matter how factual) and avoids being challenged by deflection and misdirection.

He doesn't have a fucking clue. He's the smartest person he knows though so I guess that's worth something? :dunno:

I'm not very School smart, bit am good with my hands, and good at problem solving. That's why I'm a mechanic.

My wife is far smarter than me. I have no problem with it. I'm used to it. But you guys pretending this regulation change is the end of the world and the work of satanists are some serious drugs.

So if I'm clueless, God help you here.
Keep making stuff up, it's a fun ride between oil changes.

[ZenOps]

Meh, I took rocks for jocks. I don't know that anyone really needs power of signature or a union to say "dig here".

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by ZenOps
I don't know that anyone really needs power of signature or a union to say "dig here".

They shouldn't, but here we are.

[Type_S1]

Originally posted by Gestalt


I'm not very School smart, bit am good with my hands, and good at problem solving. That's why I'm a mechanic.

My wife is far smarter than me. I have no problem with it. I'm used to it. But you guys pretending this regulation change is the end of the world and the work of satanists are some serious drugs.

So if I'm clueless, God help you here.
Keep making stuff up, it's a fun ride between oil changes.

With no education you try to discuss complex financial/economics/social topics...almost like if someone came into your shop with no mechanical experience and told you how to change a timing belt. Man you are a joke....

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Gestalt


I'm not very School smart, bit am good with my hands, and good at problem solving. That's why I'm a mechanic.

My wife is far smarter than me. I have no problem with it. I'm used to it. But you guys pretending this regulation change is the end of the world and the work of satanists are some serious drugs.

So if I'm clueless, God help you here.
Keep making stuff up, it's a fun ride between oil changes.

Troll, or someone who needs a slap :dunno:

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by Type_S1


With no education you try to discuss complex financial/economics/social topics...almost like if someone came into your shop with no mechanical experience and told you how to change a timing belt. Man you are a joke....

Im sorry, I though everyone here was an engineer, not an economist or political scientist. :rofl:

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Gestalt
Im sorry, I though everyone here was an engineer, not an economist or political scientist. :rofl:
You "though" wrong.

[ZenOps]

Political science seems strange to me. I mean, you can't really teach good policy can you?

All they can really teach you are things like spin, how to get elected regardless of what you believe in, and the stupid amount of paperwork you have to fill in to get a cup of water at the watercooler.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by Gestalt
Engineers arent as critical for strike as doctors. No one will die if engineers strike. Work might stop, but that's the point. And no one is forcing anyone to do anything, rather fundamental rights are being restored.
An engineer's duty to public safety has nothing to do with going on strike... It's got everything to do with making sure the bridge you drive on doesn't collapse or the natural gas pipeline in your back yard doesn't explode.

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by Feruk

An engineer's duty to public safety has nothing to do with going on strike... It's got everything to do with making sure the bridge you drive on doesn't collapse or the natural gas pipeline in your back yard doesn't explode. Or that the petroleum reserve numbers that determine the value of your investments (and your RRSP, Pension etc) are accurate.

People overlook that one, but it's one of the most critical things that has potential for huge abuses, and is critical for and effective economy.

[ickyflex]

Originally posted by Gestalt


I'm not very School smart, bit am good with my hands, and good at problem solving. That's why I'm a mechanic.

My wife is far smarter than me. I have no problem with it. I'm used to it. But you guys pretending this regulation change is the end of the world and the work of satanists are some serious drugs.

So if I'm clueless, God help you here.
Keep making stuff up, it's a fun ride between oil changes.

Not Smart...explains everything

[Gestalt]

And that has what to do with Union? I would thin your only leg to stand on at being "forced" into a union is life threatening situations if they go on strike.

Otherwise, no difference, probably better pay, and more benefits, lift the whole industry, even non union.

:drama:

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Gestalt
I would thin your only leg to stand on at being "forced"
Well that clears that up :nut:

[g-m]

Originally posted by Gestalt
And that has what to do with Union? I would thin your only leg to stand on at being "forced" into a union is life threatening situations if they go on strike.

Otherwise, no difference, probably better pay, and more benefits, lift the whole industry, even non union.

:drama: I'll negotiate my own pay thank you very much.

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by g-m
I'll negotiate my own pay thank you very much.

:dunno:

That's what I said.

But you undertsand as an indivuidual, your bargaining power is limited. there's strength in numbers obviously.

[rx7_turbo2]

Originally posted by Gestalt
:dunno:

That's what I said.

But you undertsand as an indivuidual, your bargaining power is limited. there's strength in numbers obviously.
Anything look a bit off about "indivuidual"?
You've got this man, a spelling mistake free post is in your future I can feel it.

[g-m]

Originally posted by Gestalt


:dunno:

That's what I said.

But you undertsand as an indivuidual, your bargaining power is limited. there's strength in numbers obviously. so all those people behind the numbers are equal? They all do the same quality of work, at the same speed? They all write and communicate equally well? They all have the same industry contacts and networks? They are all equally intelligent?

[Type_S1]

Originally posted by g-m
so all those people behind the numbers are equal? They all do the same quality of work, at the same speed? They all write and communicate equally well? They all have the same industry contacts and networks? They are all equally intelligent?

This guy wouldn't understand the vast difference in office worker quality or the reason why 2 guys with the same years experience can make $100,000 difference in salary. He likely has always worked a $/hour gig and felt the "big man" was taking advantage of the poor workers.

[bjstare]

Originally posted by Type_S1


This guy wouldn't understand the vast difference in office worker quality or the reason why 2 guys with the same years experience can make $100,000 difference in salary. He likely has always worked a $/hour gig and felt the "big man" was taking advantage of the poor workers.

:werd:

[Gestalt]

Originally posted by Type_S1


This guy wouldn't understand the vast difference in office worker quality or the reason why 2 guys with the same years experience can make $100,000 difference in salary. He likely has always worked a $/hour gig and felt the "big man" was taking advantage of the poor workers.

Haha. That's a good one.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by g-m
so all those people behind the numbers are equal? They all do the same quality of work, at the same speed? They all write and communicate equally well? They all have the same industry contacts and networks? They are all equally intelligent?

They are in a Union! :rofl:

[ExtraSlow]

Sometimes I think working union might be nice for quality of life and peace of mind. Stop pressing so hard with your projects, just show up, do good work, go home when it's quitting time.

I've always been treated well and compensated excellently by non-union workplaces. Have felt that I had sufficient leverage to negotiate changes in my compensation when appropriate.

Who knows, maybe one day I'll find out what the union world is like. Can't say I'd refuse work if it happened to be union.

[littledan]

Union is the WORST!

Picture this. You are a hard working engineer and apply for a management position. Joey Dumbass is also an engineer and applies for the same position. You might have way better work ethic, intelligence, training, etc. But if Joey has seniority, guess who gets hired? And if they don't hire him, guess who will file a grievance with the union? There are ways around it but its much harder in a unionized environment.

[J-hop]

Originally posted by Gestalt


:dunno:

That's what I said.

But you undertsand as an indivuidual, your bargaining power is limited. there's strength in numbers obviously.

How will you account for the vast differences in the sub disciplines within engineering?Should an HVAC engineer be paid the same as a drilling engineer? Will you create multiple unions?

If everyone is union and pay is similar how many small engineering companies currently operating will you put out of business? How is that better for the engineer who can do many projects at a lower wage but none at a higher wage because they are no longer cheaper than larger companies just hiring their own engineers?

How will you ensure individuals are strongly motivated to assure their work? If they have union that protects them I gauruntee the feeling of personal accountability for their work will be diminished. How will you combat this complacency?

If as you say as a whole they can fight for higher average wages how will you prevent companies from offshoring the engineering work?

Have you considered any of the above?

[speedog]

Again, where has anyone seen anything saying engineers are going to be unionized? Maybe it's just about sweeping a few more job descriptions under Alberta's codes - just because your job is regulated under Alberta's rules doesn't mean your workplace had to be unionized. Also, larger companies that have a national scope most likely wouldn't even fall under Alberta's code as they'd fall under the Canada Labour Code.

[ExtraSlow]

It's not going to unionize engineers working in non-union workplaces. What is could do is force engineers who work in already-unionized workplaces to join that union.

So in the end, it's going to effect a small number of engineers out there. Maybe 5% or so in Alberta.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by speedog
Again, where has anyone seen anything saying engineers are going to be unionized? Maybe it's just about sweeping a few more job descriptions under Alberta's codes - just because your job is regulated under Alberta's rules doesn't mean your workplace had to be unionized. Also, larger companies that have a national scope most likely wouldn't even fall under Alberta's code as they'd fall under the Canada Labour Code.

If you work as an engineer for companies with existing unions you will be forcibly unionized by these changed rules. So for example if you worked for CP, CN, Enmax, City of Calgary, etc... in the past you would have been exempt from the union but once these rules are in place you would be amalgamated without being able to choose otherwise. This is already the case for EIT's after a previous court ruling involving the City of Calgary. So EIT's are union members but once you acquire your P.Eng. you are exempt. This exemption is what the NDP is trying to remove.


Originally posted by ExtraSlow
It's not going to unionize engineers working in non-union workplaces. What is could do is force engineers who work in already-unionized workplaces to join that union.

So in the end, it's going to effect a small number of engineers out there. Maybe 5% or so in Alberta.

It's going to be a lot more than 5% of people between government positions and the various private sector companies with unions already in place.

[ExtraSlow]

Someone who is knowledgeable can maybe clarify this. But say a large oilsands company has a union that represents some of the site-based employees. Usually that union will not represent any of the head-office staff. While a portion of the engineering and managerial staff may work on location, I would suspect the vast majority work in the head office.

So in that scenario, who ends up in the union and who doesn't?

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
Someone who is knowledgeable can maybe clarify this. But say a large oilsands company has a union that represents some of the site-based employees. Usually that union will not represent any of the head-office staff. While a portion of the engineering and managerial staff may work on location, I would suspect the vast majority work in the head office.

So in that scenario, who ends up in the union and who doesn't?

If you lose union exemption status you would then be fair game to be unionized. There's previous case law on the topic and as it stands the only thing preventing this from happening is having your position marked as management or your current exemption through the APEGA act.

Here's a blurb on the topic if you're bored(APEGA lost the case and you can be sure they are gunning for the engineers if the exemption is removed from the act):
https://www.apega.ca/assets/peg/fall-2014.pdf

See page 8

Again this was done without consent from the EIT's and was imposed upon them by the union since well more members + more fees = more power...

[speedog]

CN and CP won't be affected as they fall under the Canadian Labour Code

As to the scope of who is or is not swept into a union, that is an interesting topic - I'll post on this later as I've been involved quite heavily in unions in the past as well as being management.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by speedog
CN and CP won't be affected as they fall under the Canadian Labour Code

I'm not so sure about this since currently the exemption is done regionally through the provincial engineering act. There is no federal engineering act so the regional one is what is currently granting exemptions as far as I know. So once this is removed you could in theory unionize the engineers working in Alberta for CN/CP but not the ones in other areas which still have the exemption in place. Either way you can guarantee it's going to end up in the courts since it's a huge sore spot with the union since the engineers are asked to drive trains etc... when the union is involved in job action.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by littledan
But if Joey has seniority


Originally posted by J-hop

Should an HVAC engineer be paid the same as a drilling engineer? Will you create multiple unions?

If everyone is union and pay is similar

:rofl: You guys really, really don't know how unions work, especially nowadays.

[speedog]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin


I'm not so sure about this since currently the exemption is done regionally through the provincial engineering act. There is no federal engineering act so the regional one is what is currently granting exemptions as far as I know. So once this is removed you could in theory unionize the engineers working in Alberta for CN/CP but not the ones in other areas which still have the exemption in place. Either way you can guarantee it's going to end up in the courts since it's a huge sore spot with the union since the engineers are asked to drive trains etc... when the union is involved in job action.

An act that regulates a profession has nothing to do with what labour code a profession may fall under, one can fall under the federal labour code but still be beholden to a professional act that is regulated provincially.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by speedog
An act that regulates a profession has nothing to do with what labour code a profession may fall under, one can fall under the federal labour code but still be beholden to a professional act that is regulated provincially.

Looking at this again I think you're correct on this front since I had believed in error there was two exemption clauses that they would have to remove by the provincial government but it appears the single exemption clause is in the labour act and not in the engineering and geoscience act itself.

[J-hop]

Originally posted by HiTempguy1




:rofl: You guys really, really don't know how unions work, especially nowadays.

Teamsters.....

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by J-hop


Teamsters.....

As I have said before, and as most of you don't want to hear as it goes against your preconceived notions of what a union is and what it does:

1) Unions != seniority clauses. In most cases nowadays, they aren't a thing.

2) You most certainly can have varying salaries and pay scales for individuals, usually based on a performance grid system. You can even have a *gasp* bonus-pay based system. :eek:

3) At the end of the day, regardless of being a unionized employee or not, you still have to work in the best interests of the company. As the saying goes "management has the right to manage". Doesn't change whether you are union or not. Doesn't affect some odd sense of moral righteousness in regards to "public safety" or "ethics".

You should not be using labour unions, especially for trades, as the basis for your arguments. I understand this is just in one ear, out the other for most in this thread, but seriously :dunno:

As for the whole "being forced to being unionized", as mentioned in so many other threads, go get a job elsewhere if you don't like it :dunno: Isn't that the Beyond status quo line for whenever somebody complains about their job? Nobody is forcing you to stay there :rofl:

[J-hop]

lol, yea the typical beyond line doesn't work when schulich is still pumping out cheap grads like it's going out of style and the unemployment rate for most engineering disciplines is huge.

At the end of the day I don't see unions as beneficial for the engineer, companies or the economy in general.

I can't think of a single positive thing unionizing even a portion of engineers would bring.

[g-m]

Nope