Private Golf courses in big trouble?

[ExtraSlow]

Wondering what everyone's thoughts are on the financial health of private golf courses around Calgary.
I know the Elks (sorry, "The Winston") are open for new members, although those new members will get hit with some heft specail assesments over the next few years to pay for the brand new clubhouse they are building.

I have heard radio advertisements for Silver Springs, which used to always have a waiting list, it's now wide open for full memberships.

What do you think? Are deomgraphics and changings tastesw going to spell disaster for these private courses? Or is this just a short-term thing?

I like golf, but I can't understand the economics of being a member somewhere. I think I worked out at the Elks you'd have to golf more than 200 times a year to "break even" on a membership. That seems difficult, so really, you'd better be the sort of person who enjoys being part of a club and feels that alone has some significant value.

[88CRX]

It’s a dying sport!

Its expensive ($100+) AND you have to commit 4-5 hours to play a round.

Only was a membership makes sense is if you were retired and wanted to play 50+ rounds a year at that course.

[Marsh]

I really enjoy golf, but have a hard time justifying a membership. I used to work at Silver Springs as a student, I can see the appeal for the older crowd. Social circles, network, strike some business deals, etc. And hang out at a place where everyone knows you.

But in terms of younger professionals (like myself) I don't see any appeal to that Ol boys club at all, and golfing the same course over and over would get boring real fast.

EDIT: went on a tangent, but to answer your original question. I don't think the private clubs are doing well financially. Older members dying/leaving, younger people have no interest in joining these clubs. No replacement of lost revenue. Plus there's really only 4-5 months of good golf weather here.

I think the writing is on the wall, but you can see they are trying to branch out. The ownership group that owns Hamptons opened up the course to non members so its semi-private, and are repurposing the golf course to build more homes. Same group owns Harvest Hills golf course, and they completely shut it down to build more homes.

[riander5]

200 rounds to break even? That can't be right

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by riander5
200 rounds to break even? That can't be right
Could be wrong. What's the current annual cost of a membership at a decent course?

First rule of an ExtraSlow thread is to check ExtraSlow's marth.

[bigboom]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
Wondering what everyone's thoughts are on the financial health of private golf courses around Calgary.
I know the Elks (sorry, "The Winston") are open for new members, although those new members will get hit with some heft specail assesments over the next few years to pay for the brand new clubhouse they are building.

I have heard radio advertisements for Silver Springs, which used to always have a waiting list, it's now wide open for full memberships.

What do you think? Are deomgraphics and changings tastesw going to spell disaster for these private courses? Or is this just a short-term thing?

I like golf, but I can't understand the economics of being a member somewhere. I think I worked out at the Elks you'd have to golf more than 200 times a year to "break even" on a membership. That seems difficult, so really, you'd better be the sort of person who enjoys being part of a club and feels that alone has some significant value.

Whoa...200 times a year? I think you are doing your math incorrectly or expect a $20 round of golf? Annual dues at the Elks are just under $3900/year. If you golf 50 times a year its just under $80/round.

I used to golf a decent amount 50+ rounds/year and even had an annual membership at the Elks. The issue with golf is time, to play 18 holes by the time you factor in driving to and from is it is 6-7 hours out of the day gone. It never used to take that long to play a round. Last year I played once.

It's all due to what i call the "tiger" effect. Weekend warriors and people who only took up golf because of Tiger are taking minutes to line up putts and pull out gps/range finders for every shot, when they are lucky if they can get to within 20 yards of their intended target. Because of this less people want to golf so courses have to increase rates to cover it. Which reduces your market size, it's all a circle and its causing the death of the game.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by 88CRX
It’s a dying sport!


This.

The younger generation have no interest it, so death is imminent.

[lasimmon]

Originally posted by Marsh
I really enjoy golf, but have a hard time justifying a membership. I used to work at Silver Springs as a student, I can see the appeal for the older crowd. Social circles, network, strike some business deals, etc. And hang out at a place where everyone knows you.

But in terms of younger professionals (like myself) I don't see any appeal to that Ol boys club at all, and golfing the same course over and over would get boring real fast.

EDIT: went on a tangent, but to answer your original question. I don't think the private clubs are doing well financially. Older members dying/leaving, younger people have no interest in joining these clubs. No replacement of lost revenue. Plus there's really only 4-5 months of good golf weather here.

I think the writing is on the wall, but you can see they are trying to branch out. The ownership group that owns Hamptons opened up the course to non members so its semi-private, and are repurposing the golf course to build more homes. Same group owns Harvest Hills golf course, and they completely shut it down to build more homes.

I thought Hamptons sold enough memberships and went private again?

[ExtraSlow]

I wish it was more common to play only nine holes. That's a much more reasonable timeframe.

Yeah, my math was screwed up. Although at the Elks now, if they charge each member an extra five grand a year to pay for that clubhouse, which I have heard is a real possibility, then it's a lot more rounds to break even.

[thinmyster]

I used to be a junior at canyon meadows. I believe at the time it was like 40K be accepted and then about ~5k annually but half of that could be used at the proshop or clubhouse. Looking through the members book I was surprised to see how many people didn't actual live in Calgary.

**This was 10+ years ago my numbers could be a little off

[riander5]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow

Could be wrong. What's the current annual cost of a membership at a decent course?

First rule of an ExtraSlow thread is to check ExtraSlow's marth.

I think most memberships range from 40-60 rounds to break even (most = average courses)

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
I wish it was more common to play only nine holes. That's a much more reasonable timeframe.


This is why I don't play golf anymore unless I have to for work. I am so bored after 7-9 holes that by the time 4-5 hours has gone by and 18 holes I am hating it and have completely stopped caring about the game a while ago.

I don't mind going out in the evening for 9 holes at some of the cheaper courses though, mostly because I'm not very good so it's not worth spending much on a round haha.

Some people play 36-54 holes in one day and I can't even imagine....

[Marsh]

Originally posted by lasimmon


I thought Hamptons sold enough memberships and went private again?

They might have, but any random can still play there as far as I know

[FullFledgedYYC]

Willow Park membership is up. I think the big issue for many private courses is they are equity.

I can hear you, "huh? how is equity bad?"

Cash calls. Exactly why I joined Willow. I know what my annual is going to be, generally (might see small increases in future), and I won't ever be hit with "we are building a new clubhouse, you owe us 20k". I don't think many people in their 30s would like to get a notice they owe 20k just randomly one day... thus why a lot of private courses are not doing well.

That's my 2 cents.

[speedog]

Golfing, bought a set of clubs in the spring of 81, sold them later that fall, haven't golfed since. Wasn't a bad player but there was just many other things that interested me more that I could do in the time spent doing a round of golf.

Is maybe part of the problem the municipal tax rates in Calgary for golf courses - I do recall something in the news recently regarding golf courses and tax rates.

[vengie]

I'm a huge golf fan, but only get out 5-6 times a year due to the cost of the sport.

[bjstare]

Originally posted by FullFledgedYYC
Willow Park membership is up. I think the big issue for many private courses is they are equity.

I can hear you, "huh? how is equity bad?"

Cash calls. Exactly why I joined Willow. I know what my annual is going to be, generally (might see small increases in future), and I won't ever be hit with "we are building a new clubhouse, you owe us 20k". I don't think many people in their 30s would like to get a notice they owe 20k just randomly one day... thus why a lot of private courses are not doing well.

That's my 2 cents.

That's true, however the other side of the coin is your equity share can become quite valuable (or plummet in value) with the economy. At Willow, the money you pay for your initiation is just gone, at least with equity you have a chance to make it back? haha. Equity shares at Pinebrook breached $100k back in '07 boom times.

I'm at Pinebrook (associate under family members, I'm not a shareholder). Shares last year were around $30k when they traded (plus 50% initiation fee due to the club when you buy one), then dues ~$6k/yr for the primary holder, +$3k for spouse. Which means, ~60 rounds to pay for it (I golfed over 50 last year) for the primary member.

More on topic though, it is a scary time for private courses. In Pinebrooks AGM/annual letter/etc last year, they stated that they'd be facing a membership cliff in the next 5-10 years, I'm sure due to the reasons stated in this thread. I would imagine that's common everywhere.

[suntan]

Do they allow non-whites on private courses?

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by suntan
Do they allow non-whites on private courses?

Well drrrr. Who else is going to be caddies?

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by lasimmon


I thought Hamptons sold enough memberships and went private again?

Hamptons Golf Course is owned by Mormon church (hearsay) and they bought it with redevelopment in mind.

Phase 1 approved.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-hamptons-golf-course-development-1.4065193

Pretty sure they can't piece meal like this going forward, next phase will be complete removal.

[ercchry]

I could take or leave golf... I do like 9 holes more, and if the cart girl comes around often and I have a nice cigar or two.... annnnd the sun is out, but not too windy or hot.... it's a pretty nice way to spend a couple hours outside and more or less unplugged from everything else

Can't stand being stuck behind noobs though, nor playing with people that take the game too seriously

[Marsh]

Originally posted by Xtrema


Hamptons Golf Course is owned by Mormon church (hearsay) and they bought it with redevelopment in mind.



Definitely not. Owned by Ehlerts, same owners as Boulder Creek, SilverWing, Elbow Springs.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/Ehlerts+purchase+Country+Club+Hamptons/7917730/story.html

[roll_over]

Originally posted by 88CRX
It’s a dying sport!

Its expensive ($100+) AND you have to commit 4-5 hours to play a round.

Only was a membership makes sense is if you were retired and wanted to play 50+ rounds a year at that course.

I definitely do not think it's a dying sport. Nearly every male I know between 25 and 40 golfs or has recently taken it up just to help with networking. I golf the Glencoe which is mostly older guys but I frequent shaganappi (sp?) and springbank for driving ranges and there is nothing but millenials there.

[ExtraSlow]

How many millennials do you know who have bought a membership at a private or semi-private course? How many are even seriously considering it?

How about even people under age 40, whatever generations that puts them in, same questions?

[jsn]

Originally posted by 88CRX
It’s a dying sport!

Its expensive ($100+) AND you have to commit 4-5 hours to play a round.

Only was a membership makes sense is if you were retired and wanted to play 50+ rounds a year at that course.

I'm not sure if I'd call it a dying sport yet, but this is exactly the reason I quit golf. About 10-15 years ago, I use to golf at city courses when it was around $40 a round. I don't enjoy it enough to spend $100+ for a 4 hour activity.

[austic]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
How many millennials do you know who have bought a membership at a private or semi-private course? How many are even seriously considering it?

How about even people under age 40, whatever generations that puts them in, same questions?

I have seriously considered it (30). I just dont think I golf enough to justify the annual dues. :dunno:

[Type_S1]

The problem with Golf in Alberta is cost and weather. There are not enough days in the year to make owning a membership justifiable unless you want to make it your only hobby for 4-5 months (5 days a week) and if you don't have a membership you are paying $100 to play subpar golf courses. Realistically golf is for the rich so you are cutting out 80-90% of the population before you even start looking for members. Golf will always have its appeal to rich people but I find it hard to believe it will be a growing sport in Canada anytime soon.

I personally enjoy golf but refuse to spend more then $500/year on it as I enjoy my other hobbies way way way more and they are substantially cheaper. This gets me 5 rounds and I'll go out another 3 times with work. The only guys I know in their mid 20s golfing more then this have rich parents who float their membership fees. Anyone I know that is selfmade doesn't blow money on memberships haha

[FullFledgedYYC]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
How many millennials do you know who have bought a membership at a private or semi-private course? How many are even seriously considering it?

How about even people under age 40, whatever generations that puts them in, same questions?

30, just bought in. Brother in law is 34 and also just bought in.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
How many millennials do you know who have bought a membership at a private or semi-private course? How many are even seriously considering it?

How about even people under age 40, whatever generations that puts them in, same questions?

This is where the 'cliff' is coming for a lot of higher end private courses. The kids of members are reaching the 'buy-in or get-out' stage and don't have the money to do so. Many of the clubs are finally instituting some pretty palatable payment plans (very little interest, spread over 10 years kind of thing) for the transitioning junior to shareholder member but if they don't golf all that much the parents might as well just bring them along as a guest when they want to golf and save a few grand a year.

When the kids get enough of their own money by their 40s when golf looks to be the primary hobby the memberships won't be that hard to come by like they used to be. The advantage of 'being the child of a member' is gone now. If there's no waitlist to need to bypass then there is no urgency to upgrade that membership. It will also matter if the rest of the family likes, or wants to play.

[ExtraSlow]

Heard a radio ad for Ingelwood today too. $6500 buys your share certificate and your 2017 dues.

[bigboom]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
Heard a radio ad for Ingelwood today too. $6500 buys your share certificate and your 2017 dues.

Pretty sure 5 or 6 years ago that was 17500 without dues being included.

[ExtraSlow]

They claim it's a "$10,000 value"

[npham]

cjblair and I have talked about this a bit and we both agree that memberships are going to be cheap as fuck going forward. A lot of private courses(everything but CGCC) is going to be in a world of pain in the next 5-10 years. Golf is a niche sport, always has been, but gained a lot of popularity with the 'Tiger' effect. Golf is normalizing back to it's traditional interest levels right now.

Personally, I'm ok with paying the $3500-4500 a year for dues at any number of private or semi private golf courses in Calgary. But plunking down $10-30000 just to have the ability to play a private course is too much for me, as I don't see positive EV from an equity golf membership anymore. I 'waste' more money in golf gear than 99% of people I know, and probably spend more money on clubs(yearly) than most spend on green fees annual, so it's not about the money for me - the value is just not there.

But if in 5 years courses like Earl Grey, Pinebrook, Silver Springs, etc want to charge $5000 for an equity membership, I think I could be persuaded, but not at the current price points.

Also, Hamptons was private, went semi private two years ago, but went back to private last year. They are owned by the Windmill Group(building the Phil Mickelson course).

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
I wish it was more common to play only nine holes. That's a much more reasonable timeframe Totally agree. I used to hit up the 9 hole course back in Ladysmith (Vancouver Island) all the time. I do not have the desire to play more than 9 holes of golf in the summer heat.

[ExtraSlow]

the private courses manage to take the "pace of play" thing far to seriously as well. At the elks last year, my foursome was waiting on the tee box for three holes in a row, and then, as soon as the group in front of us managed to speed up, the marshall was up our ass about holding up the group behind.

if you want faster rounds, leave more space between the tee times, even one or two minutes would do wonders to reduce stress and speed everyone up.

[asp integra]

I have 2 buddies who became members at Silver Springs last year and they both love it.

I would consider it, but it would have to be course I absolutely love, or buy in to a membership for a group of course where I could play any one of 4-5 courses any time I want.

I don't see golf as a dying sport, more and more of my friends are taking up the game (late 20s-early 30s)

The great thing about golf is you can play well into old age unlike some other sports

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
the private courses manage to take the "pace of play" thing far to seriously as well. At the elks last year, my foursome was waiting on the tee box for three holes in a row, and then, as soon as the group in front of us managed to speed up, the marshall was up our ass about holding up the group behind.

if you want faster rounds, leave more space between the tee times, even one or two minutes would do wonders to reduce stress and speed everyone up. Totally. Some of those guys are such tools. :rofl:

[heavyD]

The problem with golf is that you can't improve your game by being a casual golfer. You have to golf a lot to improve so it you don't have the time or money it's always a frustrating endeavor. Also the locals at most golf courses are total assholes which doesn't make for a friendly place to go and relax.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by heavyD
The problem with golf is that you can't improve your game by being a casual golfer. You have to golf a lot to improve so it you don't have the time or money it's always a frustrating endeavor. Also the locals at most golf courses are total assholes which doesn't make for a friendly place to go and relax.

You practice at the chip n putt and range, playing rounds won't do shit in comparison to that for advancement... golf becomes much more enjoyable once you stop caring about score though

I also very rarely interact with people outside of my foursome while golfing... unless people are trying to kill me with shitty drives and not yelling fore :rofl:

[mr2mike]

Hipster beards impede your vision for a proper swing??? :dunno:

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by heavyD
The problem with golf is that you can't improve your game by being a casual golfer. You have to golf a lot to improve so it you don't have the time or money it's always a frustrating endeavor. Also the locals at most golf courses are total assholes which doesn't make for a friendly place to go and relax. It is extremely elitist much like equestrian crap and any other hobbies involving well to do white people.