Business liability insurance - discussion

[ExtraSlow]

Many of you know that I've started a business. I've recently landed a small contract with a large multi-national company, and their vendor setup process is very thorough. like a zip file of 14 attachments. Gross.

Anyway, what's come up is that I don't have any liability insurance and I may need some. I've been getting some conflicting information about they type of insurance I need. Given that my business is engaged in only training in an office environment, it's not what I'd consider "risky".

The confusion comes from the fact that I am a professional engineer, registered with APEGA. Some companies want to quote me professional liability as well as general liability, which is intended to cover the "quality" of my work as I understand it. This increases the cost significantly. Others seem to think that since I'm involved in the business of training, and not "engaged in the practice of engineering" that normal commercial liability is fine.

What say you beyond.ca?

Also, if anyone has a good small business insurance broker that recommend, I'd like to talk to them.

[Dave P]

What type of training do you provide?

I would say its pretty likely you only need a CGL, but because you are an engineer, they are going for the upsale.

You really should only be looking at Pro Liab if you are going to be legally liable for financial damages that do not arise out of Bodily Injury or Property Damage

[IggyB]

Sounds like general Liability.

Go to State farm. Least amount of paperwork, $325-375.

PM for contact info.

[ExtraSlow]

Training is both general business topics as well as specific technical topics. Some of our clients are professional engineers or EIT's, but that's a very small percentage. Most are in related professions, finance, accounting, support or sales etc.

[Nufy]

Yeah but you are not signing / stamping any documents / drawings for this company.

I would think general insurance only.

[killramos]

Signing and stamping is extremely overrated, he is a professional engineer and providing engineering advice. Stamp is irrelevent, he is still liable for what he says. I would be getting prof liability insurance.

I think Apega has a discount provider quoted in their member discounts that would align with people like you?

[ExtraSlow]

Totally agree that you can be liable for things you aren't signing or stamping. Other than facilities types, who in O&G even has a stamp? I've never had one or needed one.

I'm sure APEGA advertises their provider as a "discount" option, but suspect the only people doing well through them are APEGA. I'm no longer a fan of that organization. Although I will check it out.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[suntan]

You probably actually want errors and omissions insurance, not general liability.

[ExtraSlow]

The current stance of state farm is that my business isn't insurable at any price.

Have a quote from a smaller local broker who said $750/yr for just CGL and another 600+ for E&O.

Fuck me, I have literally 14 hours of work to do on this contract, teaching a non-technical audience in an office environment. Can't see how the hell that's high-risk. if I'm paying that kind of money, I'm eating my entire profit, and possibly more.

I'm having the state farm agent clarify, and I have a request into co-operators as well.

[spikerS]

I got mine through Wawanessa for my RC club. $500/year for general liability. $2M coverage i believe.

[lasimmon]

What potential liability do you have in your classes? I don't really understand what someone could come after you for.

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by lasimmon
What potential liability do you have in your classes? I don't really understand what someone could come after you for.
This is a good point and depending on what you are teaching, it's a real concern.
if I was teaching professionals how to performs specific design functions for oil and gas wells - I would need E&O insurance in case I taught them wrongly.
If I'm teaching salesbros just enough that they look smart - I need just enough insurance that someone who breaks their leg in my class can't sue me.

In this case, it's the latter, and a requirement for a company I'm doing some work for. Insurance is mandatory or trust me, I wouldn't be donig any of this.

[ExtraSlow]

Update, had a great talk to a broker at Toole Peet and after some explanation, she seemed to understand exactly what I was talking about and she's going to get me some quotes from her providers.

I think the people I was dealing with at state farm misunderstood my situation.

Will wait for the quotes to come back.

[CompletelyNumb]

You could always copy the shady/broke contractors in the field and pay for the insurance, fax them the policy to verify, and then cancel it and refund. :poosie:

On another note, I've been paying an average of 900/year for 2mil CGL since 2010. Apparently I should have called state farm.

[speedog]

Originally posted by CompletelyNumb
You could always copy the shady/broke contractors in the field and pay for the insurance, fax them the policy to verify, and then cancel it and refund. :poosie:

On another note, I've been paying an average of 900/year for 2mil CGL since 2010. Apparently I should have called state farm.

Is it possible that CGL rates are partially based upon your occupation/business activities?

[CompletelyNumb]

I was told it was based off of the time in the field vs the time in the office. They didn't even have directional drilling as an occupation. One year it said welder on the forms and they shrugged it off. Next year it said well head inspector. This was underwritten by Lloyds, maybe they just suck.

[ExtraSlow]

Had a very informative email back from State farm. Apparently the head office underwriters were concerned about activities I "might" undertake and which they could become liable for in the future. That's why the considered me uninsurable.

Toole Peet has me set up with Intact for $600 per year, which isn't as low as I was hoping, but my Toole Peet rep did tell me that most of the companies she dealt with wouldn't consider general liability for me until I already had E&O insurance in place. She also agreed that currently I don't require E&O coverage, but I probably will in the future.

Apparently I have something complex going on. sigh. Oh well, it's all taken care of now I think.