AMP
Hello Everyone,

First I am not selling anything! My product wont even be available until November after the SEMA show. I am throwing this out there to gather everyone's opinion on the product before we release it later this year. I am interested in whatever everyone has to say.

The product is called the Electrocharger and it is a new type of power adder. It adds torque in the low rpm ranges up to the torque peak of the engine in order to launch your car harder and get it up to speed faster. Its a retro-fittable hybrid electric system that is geared to performance and less on fuel economy and emissions. www.alphamaleperformance.com

Thanks for your help.

CowTownBiomed
Red on black still hurts the eyes:eek:

962 kid
increases 1/4 mile times by 3 seconds?? Do you have any timeslips to back this up? what car? Please elaborate, on the analytical charts, I see an ~20 hp difference; not nearly enough to boost 1/4 mile times by 3 seconds.

QuasarCav

probably a car that runs 22's, taking out the full interior and engine will do that:burnout:

AMP

The vehicle data on the website is the on the Toyota Camry. We will be positing the data on the ľ ton chevy Suburban 4x4.

SinisterProbeGt
Here you go, already been brought up

http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread....ht=supercharger

AMP

lol

962 kid
The more I read, the less I am convinced

Q. Is the Electrocharger™ a performance upgrade?

A. Yes, it decreases your 0-60 time by a minimum of 3 seconds and sheds at least 3 seconds off your 1/4 mile time, over stock vehicle performance.


A minimum of 3 seconds?


Q. What other upgrades would I need to have to add more power with the system?

A. The new product we are expecting to introduce next year will be an upgrade for the Electrocharger™ that allows you to add 15PSI of boost to the engine. Giving you up to an additional 200HP, but in a sophisticated intelligent manner. Keep watching the website for more details.

how does your electrocharger make boost? From what I see, all it does is spin the crankshaft faster, which really isn't boost.

AMP
Actually, this is not a supercharger, it can be used in conjunction with a supercharger or turbocharger.

........... is a parallel power adder that is summed with the engine to make more torque earlier for the vehicle to get it moving.

It takes the place of your vehicle's alternator.
It acts as both a motor and an alternator. When it acts as an alternator it receives/takes torque from the engine to drive it as a generator. When it acts like a motor it adds torque to the crankshaft.
A computer tells the motor what to do depending on engine load requirements.

Chim

In a sophisticated intelligent manner eh, I'm convinced! I'd like to place a bulk order on 20 of these, and where can I buy shares for this company?

AMP

That's true....lol....but then how do drive it?

AMP

We boost the torque not the air pressure. It boost the torque directly through the crankshaft.

Gonthro
what kinda $$$ are we talking?

AMP

We are projecting a retail of $2500, but installing it on your vehicle enables you to take a tax deduction (www.automotivecomposites.com/taxcredit.html) and you can also save money in fuel economy increases. We calculate that it will pay for itself in a short amount of time. Now we just have to make sure it can be done at an economical price! To get the tax credit though it has to be greater than $2000 - - according to the IRS.

Gonthro
well we are canadian, so we dont give a s*** about the irs because the wont give us anything anyways....


but what about reliability? we all know how often we have to replace alternators, how will this be any diffrent?

AMP

The Electrocharger is in no way associated with boosthead.
Please understand that the Electrocharger is not even for sale yet.

rage2

So if you strap this on an Enzo, which does the 0-60 in 2.6 seconds, will it travel back in time? Maybe this is John Titor's time machine? :dunno:

AMP

I haven't investigated yet , but perhaps you should research and see if there is any benefit for owning a hybrid vehicle in Canada.

This is not an alternator; however, should an owner experience any issues, they will fall under warranty.....assuming the issues are not related to misuse, abuse or involvement in a vehicle collision; and, should the latter be the case, then your vehicle insurance should cover that.

Strider
Your claims seem a bit unfounded... drop 5 seconds off a 0-60 time on a small car? 5 seconds is a hell of a lot considering 0-60 only takes around 8 seconds on a "small car"

It may be a better marketing tactic to focus on the technical aspects and how it will increase power, rather than making such outrageous claims without something to back it up.

However, if your design is proven (dyno and track results). Then sign me up!

AMP
There are three modules, aside from the wiring, and each module is not user serviceable. We recommend just replacing the complete unit if anything should happen. The Switch Releuctance (SR) motor does not have brushes so nothing will need servicing there. The batteries are Lithium Ion so nothing needed there. The Ultracaps have a ten year life rating, so nothing is needed there. The rest is computers!

So replacement cost for a module, if it is not covered by our Snap-On like warranty, will vary depending on how expensive the module is. For example, The most expensive module is the SCBP which contains electronics, ultracaps and Lithium Ion batteries. This module will probably cost around $1200, but only if yours was damaged due to misuse or neglect.

AMP

Strider,

It depends on the vehicle and the vehicle mods.
For example: A Honda civic HS, which has anemic acceleration, with the Electrocharger..... would definitely have up to 5 seconds shaved off. On a heavier vehicle, with a more powerful engine it would be less.

AMP

Rage2....dude...


The has no relationship to the superwayback machine.:devil:

SinisterProbeGt
So this infact merley Forces the crank shaft to spin faster correct.
unlike a supercharger or turbo charger forcing air into the intake allowing the motor to burn more fuel ect.
you force the motor to spin faster directly on the crank hoping the motor will make up for the added force on the crankshaft and other misc parts of the motor.
What type of warranty does this have.
If one installs this product and it breaks the crankshaft or blows the motor due to excissive force what would ones course of action be against the makes of this prouduct?

» Click image for larger version

QuasarCav
so why dont i just "jerry rig" a high torque electric drill in place of my alternator?

I'll have a cavalier pulling 12 sec quarter mile and all the honda guys will immediatly stop modding their cars and bow down to the ultracharged Z24:rofl:

AMP

ANY manufacturer of ANY product is covered by a liability insurance.
We are no exception.

AMP

If you can make as much power torque with 48v and 600amps an dup to 15K rpms then by all means.....

.......except.......well........you'd be infringing on our patent.

rage2
Adding power via an electric motor isn't a new thing, that's how all the hybrids work. What I'm concerned about are his big 0-60 gains which sounds comical.

SinisterProbeGt
Thomas Knight is proud to unleash the revolutionary ESC™ 400 Electric Supercharger.


Maybe you've seen the tires melt on our ESC™-charged test vehicles at Moroso Motosports Park. Maybe you've seen our full-page ads in Power Pages, Sport Compact, and Turbo Magazine. Or maybe you've seen the buzz across hundreds of message boards and want to know why everyone is so excited about "another POS bilge pump fan that cannot possibly work."

Well, we have news for you. This is real technology. From a real company. With real test results to back our claims (see "Additional Files" to the right). This is not another eBay leaf blower...

Then what is it?

Our patented ESC™ is a high-performance supercharger powered by 15,000 watts of electricity instead of your engine's belt. It can add 75+ hp on stock engines up to 2.5L.

What's it made out of?

The core of our ESC™ 400 is the legendary Eaton roots-type blower. This highly durable unit flows up to 20 psi in 3/10 of a second and is rated up to 425 hp, with an average lifespan of 150,000 miles. Its twin rotors are turned by three custom-wound, 6+ hp electric motors on a CNC-machined, 60-16 T6 aluminum billet. Every unit is made-to-order by Thomas Knight, thoroughly tested and backed by our competitive 1-year warranty.

Electric motors? Then it must run off your alternator, right?

Wrong. For years, drawing current straight from an alternator was the misguided approach of countless engineers unable to think outside the box. It simply isn't possible for an alternator to produce enough current to power a real supercharger.

Then where does the power come from?

At the push of a button, an ultra-lightweight battery bank injects the 18 hp drive system with 15-second bursts of pure energy. And these aren't regular car batteries! They're MIL-SPEC, specifically designed for hardcore use and lightning-fast recharge. Most importantly, they're totally independent from your vehicle, so you don't suffer the parasitic loss under boost that a turbo or supercharger does. Because this is a universal system, we do not supply these batteries, but we can help you customize your setup towards a specific application. For the average user, we recommend four or more Odyssey 680 high-CCA batteries, manufactured by Hawker (see "Additional Files" to the right). They weigh only 13lbs each.

Why only short bursts?

Think of these batteries as your Nitrous tanks. Like NO2, the ESC's instant boost is currently limited in duration, but unlike NO2, that restriction will gradually disappear as battery technology improves. Eventually, high-volume capacitors will allow for almost perpetual usage. Until then, a typical battery bank will yield several runs before recharge. And unlike Nitrous, our system will not cost you thousands of dollars in long-term refilling expenses. Most NO2 users go through at least 1 bottle/week, and at $30 to $45 per bottle, that's a hidden charge of $1,560 a year, every year, forever. With our system, you will never deal with costly refills again.

No more refills?

Well, not quite. There is no such thing as free energy. Even our system needs to be recharged, but in this respect, the universal, open-ended design allows for hundreds of ways to do so. It could be as simple as hooking up to a regular battery charger in your garage twice a week, or as futuristic as solar panels. We recommend upgrading to a high-output alternator (like those that power competition audio systems) and bypassing it under boost using a SPDT arming switch. With a 200-amp alternator, you'll fully recharge in 20 minutes while the ESC™ is off. So while you're waiting in the staging lanes or cruising along the strip, you can relax and hurl insults at the Nitrous guys while your system preps for another 15-second burst of sheer power.

That's more than enough time to run the quarter mile or remind those high school kids with the neon muffler bearings who their daddy is.

What about the extra weight?

Our ESC™ weighs only 42 lb. At just 13 lbs each, a bank with four Odyssey 680 batteries adds another 52 lbs. That's 94 lb in total. In comparison, a full turbo kit can easily weigh 90-100lb, while most belt-driven superchargers weigh 70 lbs. As you can see, this "extra weight" is in the same range as any other aftermarket system. Plus, no parasitic loss means greater horsepower, so our ESC™ more than makes up for the difference.

AMP

Please keep in mind...it is "up to" shave on the 0-60...depending on the vehicle.

SinisterProbeGt

Based on what car are you making these claims?

AMP

This looks like a very viable product.....different motor, different batteries.....different from us.......DIFFERENT technology altogether.

Strider

so what you're saying is that it will shave anywhere from 0seconds to 5 seconds...

what vehicles have you tested it on? and which one in particular saw the miracle 5 second gain? what kind of timing/measurement instrumentation did you use for the tests?

sorry for all the questions, but i'm just a bit skeptical...:dunno:

SinisterProbeGt
and another question.
If I buy your product and the If I buy your product and the ESC™ 400 Electric Supercharger.
Thomas Knight ESC™ 400 Electric Supercharger.
will my car fly?
like 7 or 6 second 1/4 mile times?
Will i be able to join NIRA
and beat out some top fuel cars?

Stock my car has around 165 HP with some bolt on lets go 190HP with the tomas knight one it gives me 75+hp on my motor so thats 265HP now right(just incase my math is off)
and I bolt on your system i get my Quarter mile times reduced by at least 3 seconds as well over stock vehicle performance.

so that means my car stock is Ford Probe V6 GT 1994 164 BHP 0-60 mph 7.9
1-4 time 16.2
Your system is basicailly saying I will get about 115hp+ right.
so with both systems i will have 380HP thats over double my stock hp.
so my new 1/4 time would be 13.2 ?
there are probes out there with over 300+HP only pulling 12.5 in the 1/4 @ sea level

QuasarCav

I think it is like the tornado. it gets 20hp on a 1947 fiat but on every other car it's 0.2hp.

lets end the BS and see a drag slip or dyno sheet? if you've tested it you must have one of those.

rage2

Well, I'm quoting your website here:

That says minimum of, not up to. If it's up to, it's just a marketing gimmick. It's like those penis pills I bought said I was supposed to gain up to 3 inches in length, I only gained 0.1 inch. Their up to claim was still right! :banghead:

Gonthro
i think you really need some concrete evidence before you even ask the pblic, show us a few time slips and dyno runs (from several completely diffrent vehicles) and then we might partially beleive you

and would that not cause huge emissions issues, since you are making the crank spein super fast so your valves and spark plugs ill be missing and causing unburned gas to go out your exhaust constantly?

AMP

That's a good point. Sorry about the penis pills.

There is actual analytical data on the vehicles. On the analysis that have been done to date, it shows a minimum of a 3 sec. shave on stock vehicles.....but you are right, it could be different for different vehicles....Which is also stated.

There are a lot of varying factors that could affect it. For example, Engine condition.

AMP

The vehicle DC power output is filtered and current protected by the control module.

Your vehicle isn't working any harder.The engine is actually working less.
The best analogy is that if you are pushing your vehicle, say you ran out of gas, and you can only push with so much force. If a smaller person came along and helped you push, it would make your work easier and the two of you could get the car rolling faster sooner because you have more force available.

Gonthro
that doesn't explain speeding up the crank shaft speed resulting in incorrect timging therefore spewing raw fuel out the exhaust

limecorrado
Why Not Just have a Supercharger Put On Your Car and have the Power all the Time.Seems Silly to Me to Run For 15 Seconds Or Something When Mine Runs WhenEver I Want For as Long as I Want.:D

AMP

I think you are talking about the ESC, which has nothing to do with the Electrocharger.


The Electrocharger is similiar to an Integrated Motor Assist, and under street racing and driving it wont run out of power because it gets most of its energy from when you hit the brakes and if the battery pack and ultracaps drop to low, the motor when its acting as a generator, generates a higher amount of current to maintain the state of charge.
In almost all street conceivable situations it almost never runs out of charge.

Gonthro
you have avoided my question 2 times, now.... shall we go for a third??

AMP

Sorry, I missed your post. Thanks for being persistent!


It doesn't affect fuel delivery or timing. That is all taken care of by the engine itself. This merely allows the engine to work less.

Weapon_R

Would my anemic 0-60 stock time of 7.8 seconds on my integra be also shaved down 5 seconds? Would I be able to hunt down Ferrari Enzo's after I install this?

962 kid

Then how does your kit make 15 psi?? torque is measured in lbs/feet or Nm, not psi

AMP

No, but you could probably shave 1 second...possibly more.

AMP

Who said psi? Don't confuse the Electrocharger with Boosthead.

962 kid

Q. What other upgrades would I need to have to add more power with the system?

A. The new product we are expecting to introduce next year will be an upgrade for the Electrocharger™ that allows you to add 15PSI of boost to the engine. Giving you up to an additional 200HP, but in a sophisticated intelligent manner. Keep watching the website for more details.

straight off your FAQ

Gonthro

its says that is an upgrade, a totally diffrent thing, not necessary but suggested/

AMP

That is a forced induction product that is being developed to augment the Electrocharger.

AMP

That is a forced induction product that is being developed to augment the Electrocharger.

QuasarCav

but it's sophisticated and intelligent, so it should fix itself while making you a nice martini:poosie:

AMP
I will be stepping out for a while, but will be back to check on your posts a bit later.

Thank you all for your feedback.

Weapon_R
I just read about this device in SCC. It's one of the featured products coming out in the near future. It applies electricity to the camshaft, according to the magazine, to create instant boost. Until we see some success, i'll remain skeptical, but you never know....The claims seem OUTRAGEOUS, however. On most sports compacts, any type of Forced induction (nitrous, supercharger, turbo etc) only shave off 1-2 seconds at most. This product claims up to 5. I don't think that physics can even explain that claim.

My other question to you:

I thought that the speed of the camshaft was determined by detonation. If this is the case, where does the extra air/fuel come from? For someone claiming that we can shave off 5 seconds on a honda civic (making it an Enzo killer), there has to be a way to compensate for this extra power in terms of fuel and air.

962 kid

crankshaft;)

AMP

Weapon,

could you please tell me what issue of SCC you read about this?

Weapon_R
Sorry, my mistake. It's Sport Compact National, March 2004 issue, page 56.

Here's what is written about it:

10 Best Sema Show Products

1. Alpha Male Electrocharger.

"I've heard of forced induction, but how about forced electrocution? Alpha male performance (which sports a gorilla for a logo, so draw your own conclusions) showed the Electrocharger at SEMA. The device is a power adder that applies instant torque to the crankshaft, so you get faster acceleration. The Electrocharger replaces the alternator and is coupled to the crank with a drive belt. Power comes from a rechargeable 48 volt, 350 amp "super capacity battery pack" in the trunk."

Weapon_R

right ;)

AMP

Thanks!

AMP

Sinister,

Missed your comment.....

The way you are talking about it....First, your engine probably couldn't handle it without some big modifications.
Second, your tires probably couldn't take it either.

It would seem like you were having that sort of power initially.
Keep in mind that the Electrocharger is for the initial acceleration ...it has less impact once the engine gets near its torque peak.
The Eletcrocharger is for raising and flatening out your torque curve.....
HP is not relevent with the electric motor..torque is.
As far as adding Thomas Knights product....you are welcome to add whatever other system you like in conjunction with the Electrocharger; however, we have not tested the Electrocharger in conjunction with the ESC.

1badPT
Have you ever thought about marketing this as a hybrid conversion product as opposed to a performance product? When you sell something based on performance, you will be criticized harshly if your product doesn't live up to its claims - and your claims are pretty lofty.

AMP

We have thought of that. Feedback from people like yourself is very important, appreciated and welcomed.

So far people respond more to a performance product, and the test results to date are very attractive in that arena.

Performace with the side effects still being fuel economy and reduced emissions. If that is your thing.
It is still a retrofitable aftermarket product.
So, it is ALL of these things....but the general public appeals more to performance products.

stockEK
Why dont you look at offering performance upgrade kits for the IMA cars that will be coming out?

Upgraded electric motors, control units - if Honda uses an ECU similar to whats in the K-series, then you could reflash that with differerent drive characteristics ect.. The OEM infrastructure would allready be there.



This complete standalone setup is too pricy and lacks the potential to compete with conventional forced induction or other power adders.

AMP

That's a very good idea!!

After the tax credit and the savings in fuel economy, we estimate that the system will pay itself off within the first year.

M_Power

So is it 2500$ or 1200$? If you can show any timeslips or real data this argument can end. Until than im not convinced


:rolleyes:

dishrag
Gee, and it only weighs 100 lbs! How could I lose? I wonder how much heat the electric motor will blech out? I wonder where the power to charge the batteries comes from, oh yeah - the engine. Sounds like pissing into the wind. Both this and the Thomas Knight Electric Crapcharger are fit for The Pit. But hey, theres a sucker born every minute. I wish you the best of luck ripping people off with your false claims and shoddy wares. :barf: Oh, and by the way, your site says the electric motor in question weighs 15 lbs. That would make it about a 1/3 hp motor commonly used in furnaces and the like. And they got dick for torque too. go home pal. :bullshit: :guns: :closed:

AMP

Dishrag,

Sorry, it's hard to keep a straight face with that name. lol
First off at present it only weights 70lbs. (total).
The electric motor hardly puts out any heat.
Underhood temps from your exhaust manifold alone can reach 120 degrees Celcius.
Actually, most of the power to charge the ultracap is provided through engine braking; and, the battery also recharges the ultracapacitor.
The battery state of charge is maintained during crusing.
We have a lot of research time and development behind our studies so that we put out, not only a reputable product, but also a reliable one that fulfils it's expectations. We are not trying to fool anyone. Gimmicks do not qualify the purchasor (you) for a tax deduction.

Lastly, it is a Switch Reluctace (SR) motor which is a totally different techonolgy than any other motor type. They are the lighest motors available.

AMP

Please reread these in full context when you quote me. The cost is predicted at $2500 and we are working on getting it even lower.

The $1200 was only listed as reference to the SCBP.... the ultracapacitors have a life expectancy of 10 years and the lithium ion batteries have a life expectancy of 25-30years. The warranty is a snap-on style.... something goes wrong it will be replaced.
We do not anticipate many issues with this technology as we have been working for many years to fine tune it.

Assuming there is no misuse or neglect of the system, the manufacturer will cover it.

dishrag
what are your patent numbers?

AMP

Patent #: 5,586,613

This is one and others have been filed for other areas.

Hollywood
Sounds like the infamous octane boost. Like 104+ making it think you would 104 octane when done but really only gaining 1.04 of octane. Or the swirl intake adding 25hp!

I am sceptical, and it would take some serious convincing to make me thing otherwise. I understand there is new technology coming out but to shave 5 seconds of 0-60 and reducing fuel and emisions sounds a little phoney to me, and unfortunatly nothing said here by AMP would convince me.

AMP

I don't know about octane boost.

As previously stated, the shave on your time will depend on the vehicle mods, and what type of engine you are starting with. (i.e. 6 cylinder, v8, etc.), and what power level, but will always make a difference.
I am certain, that even after it's official introduction, many people will remain skeptical....that is to be expected. I am not here to convince or sway you in either direction.
I am simply interested in what attracts the public. Based on the amount of emails that I get day to day, with enthusiastic interest I know that there are many people that understand the technology and believe in it. We also get a lot of suggestions that will only help us improve what the public receives.
A lot of folks have already contacted us at the National, as well as Internationally to become sponsors, dealers, distributors and even investors.
Other's contact with many questions. Others, are skeptical.
We appreciate it all.

Hollywood

Or simply interest in free advertising......

AMP

Nah,

But hey, if you feel that way, I will be happy to graciously bow out and leave the forum. My interest in your opinions is genuine, but never worth causing heartburn over.

Hollywood

Not my forum. Do as you wish, I am a user just like yourself.

No heart burn caused.

Mindwerkz
OMG guys lay off this poor fella. Has he asked any of you for any money?

Personaly I think it's an idea with vast potential. None of my science buddies can shoot it down. It even has a page on Wikipedia. According to publicly available independant news sources he's recieved cooperation from automobile manufacturers to demonstrate his product at major car shows.

IMHO until he asks for anything other than opinions, assume he's not full of it. Conversly, Amp, until you show some timeslips, dyno sheets or video of it in action at a local event blowing something away that it otherwise wouldn't have, don't expect any tuners to belive a word you say. =P

But that's ok, I belive you man! And I'll continue to do so as long as you promise to make an application of it for my 2000 Mitsubishi Galant V6 LS. =)

nonsane
Go back in time and kick their ass Mindwerkz!(last post was over 2 years ago)


Considering his webpage doesn't work anymore either it has a new name or it didn't work.

Toms-SC

I heard hooking some compressed air up to your intake might work!

Crymson
I guess they went out of business?

FivE.SeveN
Sweet 2 year old bump.

gofastmerc

Nice!



I could see this working, IF the eletric motor could make any kind power. The problem is that it sounds like he is trying to put the power through the front belt, that has some limits of much power it can take. But, I think the bigest problem is that big motors tend to be really big. Ever look at a 5hp motor on your air compressor? Ever see a 20hp motor? They are huge. This falls under the same idea of electrick super chargers, the idea is OK, but the technoligy just isn't there.



So hows that air tank coming??

Mindwerkz
I'm thinking I'll just strap the air compressor in my garrage onto the intake! =P


But yeah, he's still working on it. I'll find the url and give ya guys the page that lists the updates.

barbarian
EDIT: Ah, two year old bump. I see. No wonder the website is down.

A bit of googling and I found the eulogy for this device.