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Kloubek
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M3 more efficient than a Prius? quote:

I would be surprised if this was never posted before. But I could not pull up anything with a search.

Top Gear (which is hardly a scientific show), did a test that pitted the M3 against the Prius on the track. Obviously in a race, the M3 would prevail. But in this case, they simply had the M3 follow the Prius, while the Prius was being driven with spirit. (As much spirit as one could possibly drive a Prius anyway.)

Fuel economy results? Well, watch the video.

Link to video

I will say that it is likely the BMW enjoyed some reduced drag with the Prius in front. However, it would not be nearly at the same level that was done during the Mythbuster tests of hypermiling, where they were as close as two feet away from a tractor trailer.

Of course, those people who have a Prius are not likely to drive it with any spirit. It is most likely to be subjected to stop and go traffic, where it would most definately beat the BMW in economy. However, for those such as you and I who tout ourselves as "car enthusiasts", it's an interesting watch.

I am also interest to know if the claim that during the manufacturing process for the battery, that it does more environmental harm than a Land Rover. I sure hope that's not true.

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Old Post 06-25-2008 03:42 PM
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Toms-SC
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quote:

Here we go

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Old Post 06-25-2008 03:44 PM
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The Cosworth
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quote:

it is not that the M3 is particularly good, the prius are a bunch of crap

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Old Post 06-25-2008 03:46 PM
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Toms-SC
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quote:

Originally posted by The Cosworth
it is not that the M3 is particularly good



You sir are incorrect

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Old Post 06-25-2008 03:48 PM
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Tik-Tok
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quote:

Originally posted by The Cosworth
it is not that the M3 is particularly good, the prius are a bunch of crap



No, the prius just isn't meant to be run flat out. Of course it's going to get shit mileage when driving at maximum MPH. They were designed for city commuting.

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Old Post 06-25-2008 03:50 PM
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Destinova403
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quote:

theres an article that was posted on a university website a while back... im at work so i dont have the URL here but it compairs the total environmental damage that the prius does to the Hummer H1... and the prius does more dmg over 100,000 kms than the hummer does in 300,000 kms

ill post it up when i get home...

i hate the prius... the nickle mines for it has turned a nice swath of ontario into an ecological dead-zone. NASA uses it to test moon rovers and all so some hippy ass holes can feel better about themselves for "not polluting" as much

as i said... ill post the article when i get home from work.

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Old Post 06-25-2008 03:55 PM
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Tik-Tok
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quote:

Originally posted by Destinova403
theres an article that was posted on a university website a while back...

i hate the prius... the nickle mines for it has turned a nice swath of ontario into an ecological dead-zone. NASA uses it to test moon rovers



I read that, and it was pure propaganda. The way they "calculated" the environmental damage, was using mining techniques that haven't been used in decades (the same techniques that also moon-scaped Sudbury).

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Old Post 06-25-2008 04:01 PM
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quote:

My link isn't working anymore, but here's the article.

he Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.
Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.

The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?

You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius’s EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.

However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn’t be writing this article. It gets much worse.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.

“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.

All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?

Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.

One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.

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Eleanor
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quote:

Of course the M3 is going to be more efficient around a track, the Prius get its economy from having the engine shut off half the damn time.

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heavyD
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quote:

Sounds like the whole electric car thing. Hey! An electric car is more environmentally friendly. Sure the car itself is but you have to charge those cars and electricity is created via massive steam turbines that are run by coal fired boilers at power plants. More electricity used = more coal used at power plants.

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Old Post 06-25-2008 04:31 PM
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benyl
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quote:

Originally posted by heavyD
Sounds like the whole electric car thing. Hey! An electric car is more environmentally friendly. Sure the car itself is but you have to charge those cars and electricity is created via massive steam turbines that are run by coal fired boilers at power plants. More electricity used = more coal used at power plants.



Especially in China AND Alberta.

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Euro_Trash
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quote:

Originally posted by Destinova403
theres an article that was posted on a university website a while back... im at work so i dont have the URL here but it compairs the total environmental damage that the prius does to the Hummer H1... and the prius does more dmg over 100,000 kms than the hummer does in 300,000 kms



Re-read that part about damage per km. For the Prius they took the environmental cost and divided it by 100,000 miles. For the H1 they took the environmental cost and divided it by 300,000 miles. Doesn't make for much of a comparison

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heavyD
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quote:

Originally posted by benyl


Especially in China AND Alberta.



There's caveats to all the so called alternative fuels or methods. E85 sounds great until you realize that it's lower BTU therefore leads to poorer gas mileage and higher corn prices.

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Old Post 06-25-2008 04:42 PM
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Kloubek
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quote:

It does actually. The reason is that the batteries in the Prius are only expected to run 100,000 miles before they need to be replaced. At that time the Prius will not be worth replacing the battery at current battery costs. (Although I expect reduced prices in the future.) Whereas the distance an H1 can travel prior to the junkyard is really only limited by the owner's interest in upkeep. Saying that a Hummer would be around for 300,000 miles seems fairly realistic - although I personally would estimate maybe 250,000 miles seems more in-line with future actuality. That works out to about 400,000kms.

Originally posted by Euro_Trash


Re-read that part about damage per km. For the Prius they took the environmental cost and divided it by 100,000 miles. For the H1 they took the environmental cost and divided it by 300,000 miles. Doesn't make for much of a comparison

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Destinova403
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quote:

Originally posted by Euro_Trash


Re-read that part about damage per km. For the Prius they took the environmental cost and divided it by 100,000 miles. For the H1 they took the environmental cost and divided it by 300,000 miles. Doesn't make for much of a comparison



yes... BUT if you look at what they state... they calculated the total amount of energy used to produce and run the car over its lifetime and then put a dollar value on it and divided it by the life of the car... so theoretically if they reduced the life of the hummer to say 100000 miles then itll still be lower than the prius because the total amount of energy used would be a third (not including manufacturing energy)

Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.



so basically... the hummer uses $585000 of energy over 300000 miles and the Prius uses $325000 over 100000 miles.

so lets assume (WILD guess based on the cost of the hummer at around 80k with labour+parts+etc) that the hummer costs $20000 in energy to produce meaning that the remaining $565000 would be energy used to run it during the 300k... divide by 3 meaning its $188333 to run for 100000 miles... add the 20000 back on and the energy the hummer would use for 100000 miles would be $208333 which is over $100000 less than the prius

so basically... even if you assume that the ENTIRE retail value of the hummer goes into energy (whats being calculated with) the hummer STILL comes out lower than the Prius over 100000 miles.

theres also the factor that after 100000 miles the prius is useless because of the battery whereas the hummer is still going to be able to run for a while with proper maintainence.

EDIT: i think they used a dollar value so it demonstrates to idiot americans the point... i dont know if they would understand the term kilowatt-hours/joules (thanks to super_geo for the correction)

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Euro_Trash
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quote:

Alright, but there are a lot of Prius's out there with over 130,000 miles on the original battery, so the 100,000 miles estimate is obviously a poor one. From what I have read, in the states you can get a 150,000 mile powertrain warranty for the Prius.


And they are attributing all of this nickel use by the batteries; I can pretty much guarantee that the Hummer contains more nickel in it's steel than in the Prius' batteries.

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Destinova403
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quote:

Originally posted by Euro_Trash
Alright, but there are a lot of Prius's out there with over 130,000 miles on the original battery, so the 100,000 miles estimate is obviously a poor one. From what I have read, in the states you can get a 150,000 mile powertrain warranty for the Prius.


And they are attributing all of this nickel use by the batteries; I can pretty much guarantee that the Hummer contains more nickel in it's steel than in the Prius' batteries.



did you completely miss what i said...? even at 150000 miles the prius comes out behind... and are the batteries covered in the warranty? in which case im sure they are getting replaced at the 100000 miles. do you have a service schedule for the prius? or are you basing all of this on nothing but blind hippy devotion?

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Euro_Trash
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quote:

Originally posted by Destinova403


did you completely miss what i said...? even at 150000 miles the prius comes out behind... and are the batteries covered in the warranty? in which case im sure they are getting replaced at the 100000 miles. do you have a service schedule for the prius? or are you basing all of this on nothing but blind hippy devotion?



Yes batteries are covered in the warranty (double checked, a thread on vortex said 150,000 miles but on the website the hybrid parts are covered by 100)

I am not defending this argument at all (I highly doubt a Jeep Cherokee shows my hippy devotion ) but this article has been floating around for a looong time now, and has been debunked every time. All of the arguments are based on estimates and mining facts from the 80's.

Even your argument is based on this magical 100,000 miles mark which changes the entire case.

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Super_Geo
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quote:

Originally posted by Destinova403
EDIT: i think they used a dollar value so it demonstrates to idiot americans the point... i dont know if they would understand the term kilowatts.



Why would they use kW?

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Destinova403
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quote:

Originally posted by Super_Geo


Why would they use kW?



sorry... kilowatt-hours or joules depending on what you look at... physics is my WORST subject.

The energy unit used for everyday electricity, particularly for utility bills, is the kilowatt-hour (kWh), and one kWh is equivalent to 3.6×106 J (3600 kJ or 3.6 MJ). Electricity usage is often given in units of kilowatt-hours per year (kWh/yr). This is actually a measurement of power consumption, i.e., the rate at which energy is transferred

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