VW's Cheated EPA test Automaker faces $18B in fines.

[Redlyne_mr2]

It's sort of a double edge sword, with worse emissions comes better fuel economy, but with worse fuel economy comes better emissions.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2
What surprises me is that this is affecting Canadian sold cars as our emissions requirements is no where near what it is in US/California. VW Canada might check the legalities here with emissions testing and might eventually just tell us to go straight ahead with selling them.

We just follow US EPA requirements, there is no Canadian specific emissions requirements or testing, which ensures that car manufacturers doesn't have to make additional investments for Canada in terms of emissions. Everything is voluntary, and VW Canada pulling Canadian cars for sale is strictly voluntary at this time.

Originally posted by npham
Cmon free money! Honestly, I really don't care all that much about this, even though we have a car that's affected. Doesn't really change my opinion on VAG(if you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough) and I doubt I'll see any compensation for this either.

It's slimy for sure, but I suspect they aren't the only ones doing this.

If power and economy is affected, they will need to dish out compensation.

The group that found the problem was testing a BMW X5 diesel as well, and it passed. So at least 1 model from 1 manufacturer wasn't cheating.

There's also rumors that the findings went to the Detroit big 3 first, and they're the ones that ratted VW out to CARB/EPA. If that is indeed true, then I'm 100% sure they're not cheating. Unless they're really fucking stupid.

Originally posted by rx7_turbo2
Sneaky, sneaky

News is coming in non stop, Consumer Reports says the EPA map kicks in when you use Test Mode. Going to have to check up on VW forums to see if anyone runs their TDI in the EPA map to see how big of a power difference there is.

Originally posted by revelations
40% more emissions, when? During WOT? Average drive cycle?

It's 10 to 40 TIMES more NOx emissions, guessing that would be 10x at part throttle and 40x at WOT. When you lean out the mixture, NOx goes up. Injecting urea cleans that up, but VW decided they didn't want to do it and saved on production costs.

The urea 2.0L TDI is 5-20x higher NOx emissions than allowable. Not sure why they needed to cheat the system with those.

[Xtrema]

http://jalopnik.com/understanding-th...iss-1732175835

Good TL/DR version of the cheat.

[heavyD]

VW is the New England Patriots of the automobile industry. They should hire Tom Brady for future advertisements.

[ExtraSlow]

I'd prefer to hear from Belichick.

[01RedDX]

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[revelations]

Just for some clarity, 18 billion max USD fine = E16 billion.

In 2014 VAG made E11 billion profit.

I highly doubt that the maximum amount will be fined in this case as a company would not look pretty if it suddenly a FY income just disappeared.

[01RedDX]

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[killramos]

Originally posted by revelations

I highly doubt that the maximum amount will be fined in this case as a company would not look pretty if it suddenly a FY income just disappeared.

I doubt the EPA gives a shit how it makes VW look.

Someone needs to get their pee-pee slapped to prove the EPA is serious about this kind of thing. Who better than one of the largest foreign auto makers in the world.

[Aleks]

^

Just curious why would the fines from EPA regarding pollution be so much more serious than being responsible for 120 people dying (GM ignition scandal).

VW is the largest automaker in the world period btw (revenue) for 2014.

[killramos]

a) I doubt ignition scandal is EPA's jurisdiction so not really relevant

b) They are foreign not domestic ( backlash from politicians and citizens), always ok to rag on a company from another country regardless of how many jobs that company is responsible for in the US

c) Depends on which metric you are using, I think Toyota sells more cars for example, I used a generic " one of the biggest" phrasing to avoid people arguing with me about it like that Samsung appliance debate a month ago. Ironic.

[sputnik]

Now I just have to decide when to start buying VAG and Porsche stock.

Down 20% yesterday and another 20% today.

[SilverRex]

VW cant be the only company doing this, it will be very interesting to see what other scrutiny this brings to the entire sector. First it was safety, now emissions, whats next? false results on crash test?

[01RedDX]

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[Axe]

I tend to agree with SilverRex - the question both regulatory agencies, and consumers, should be asking is "what else" . I would argue that the question could be asked of most automakers and not just VW given the ignition and airbag issues. Those are just the things we find out about....

VW CEO is out as of Friday this week, replaced by Porshe's CEO....

[Aleks]

Originally posted by killramos
a) I doubt ignition scandal is EPA's jurisdiction so not really relevant

b) They are foreign not domestic ( backlash from politicians and citizens), always ok to rag on a company from another country regardless of how many jobs that company is responsible for in the US

c) Depends on which metric you are using, I think Toyota sells more cars for example, I used a generic " one of the biggest" phrasing to avoid people arguing with me about it like that Samsung appliance debate a month ago. Ironic.

EPA doesn't have jurisdiction over ignitions switches. I'm just saying, it seems odd that EPA has such a long stick in USA. We will see if they level a full available fine.

I used revenue metric and VW by that metric is biggest in the world (foreign or domestic). They will need it after all this as mentioned their stock is taking a massive beating.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by SilverRex
VW cant be the only company doing this, it will be very interesting to see what other scrutiny this brings to the entire sector. First it was safety, now emissions, whats next? false results on crash test?

I disagree with this sentiment, as the decision to cheat like this in such a grand fashion is plain stupidity.

This could do some serious damage to the growth of VW, I wouldn't be surprised if a couple people go to jail, the public is getting tired of people running large corps getting away with crime.

[SilverRex]

who thinks someone inside VW knew, shorted the stock then leaked or indirectly blew up the issue?

[rage2]

Originally posted by Aleks
Just curious why would the fines from EPA regarding pollution be so much more serious than being responsible for 120 people dying (GM ignition scandal).

Explained here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/bu...mit-fault.html

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, for example, can impose a maximum penalty of $35 million on an automaker that flouts safety regulations — a relatively low sum for a company like General Motors, which last year paid such a fine for a defect that has now been linked to at least 124 deaths.

By contrast, under the Clean Air Act, Volkswagen, the world’s largest automaker, could be fined as much as $37,500 for each recalled vehicle, for a possible total penalty of as much as $18 billion.

“The Clean Air Act statutory scheme gives E.P.A. more power and flexibility to move more quickly than N.H.T.S.A.,” said Carl Tobias, a law professor at the University of Richmond, who has studied the government’s response to auto safety issues. “E.P.A. also seems more tough-minded and savvy about how to be effective in this arena.”

It's going to get worse before it gets any better. VW is doing the same thing against Euro tests. No word on what the fines are like there.

edit - EPA found 500k vehicles affected, VW now admits 11m vehicles are affected worldwide. Jesus.

[rage2]

Reuters and Consumer Reports has conflicting info on how the defeat works.

CR says test mode, Reuters and other sources says software just determines wtf it's doing.



Pretty sure this is the right one, and CR is wrong.