Water Softeners - suggestions?

[r3ccOs]

I know I had opened a thread on this topic, but couldn't find it...

As of now I've read alot of articles and determined that I would probably like a system that can do anywhere from 32000 - 45000 grains... but there is alot of variances from these units, raning from GE cheapos from HD to Culligan ones which look more like the GE's resold at numerous plumbing places.

AS well... I cannot seem to get a straight answer as to whether it will prolong or be deteramental to my hot water tank.

Anyone know if these are rentable and where? "I" would love to have a system that I don't have to worry about the resin tank breaking and having to fork out the repairs.

[codetrap]

It's supposed to prolong your hot water tank because it prevents the hard water buildup. Whether that is true or not remains to be seen.

I picked up the AMP51 and am very happy with it. Plumbed it in with PEX which took about a half hour. Programmed it up and haven't had to touch it since. Got it through Wolsely plumbing near the south side costco.

http://www.aquamasterpro.ca/

http://www.aquamasterpro.ca/wp-conte...rochure_sm.pdf

[r3ccOs]

As I've never owned one, are the benefits immediate and tangable?

Do you notice things like less lime buildup, less use of soap, softer skin (yes a gay question) etc...

[InRich]

I bought a new house, first thing I bought was a water softener.

[codetrap]

Clothes feel nicer now. Dishes Don't have anymore hardwater stains. Once I cleaned up all the calcium buildup, I haven't had to do it again. 4 months ago. Also, I haven't had to use my excema creme since we got it going. Cut down on the amount of soaps we use for everything, even my old school shaving is nicer too.

I wish I had done it years ago.

[derran.m]

My parents had a softener in their place ... you never really notice it til you don't have it anymore. From clothes to dishes to showers, everything felt better.

[redline]

http://www.kinetico.ca/

I have one of these... they are best and cheapest to run. But they cost lots of $$$

I put it in march of this year and just finally put a new bag of salt in it. Very effiencent.

You can only buy them from Trail or Costco...

[modpod77]

Originally posted by redline
http://www.kinetico.ca/

I have one of these... they are best and cheapest to run. But they cost lots of $$$

I put it in march of this year and just finally put a new bag of salt in it. Very effiencent.

You can only buy them from Trail or Costco...

thank you for your infomation

[JordanLotoski]

Originally posted by redline
http://www.kinetico.ca/

I have one of these... they are best and cheapest to run. But they cost lots of $$$

I put it in march of this year and just finally put a new bag of salt in it. Very effiencent.

You can only buy them from Trail or Costco...

I have a kinetico, it's been awesome.

[project240]

Less people here in Calgary have them because the water is really that "hard" here. With that being said you probably will still notice a bit of a difference if you install one.

[nzwasp]

We have a Wa2 softener I think it was 950$ installed - so far its been very good. There is local distributor and support in Calgary, and the importer is in Vancouver.

[r3ccOs]

Eventually bought one...

Based on the City of Calgary water hardness FAQ:

http://www.calgary.ca/portal/server....rdness+FAQ.htm

We have pretty hard water, especially on the SW/SE side of the city coming from the Glenmore Res... which I live in where we average 15 gpg (grains per gallon) and peaks high in the 17-18 range.

At least our Iron & Manganese levels are low that those don't have to too be complensated (as ppm is the same as mg/l I belive)

Anyways... based on sizing of usage:

75-80 liters of water consumped per person x persons x gpg = grains removed per day
For me, that's: 3375 for 3 (4500 for 4, but we only have 3)

As such, the general rule of thumb is that you want a regeneration cycle to run about once a week... as such you have to be able to accomodate those 7 days... so for me (& for most accorindg to Culligan and other plumbers) a 33,200, grain system is more than sufficient for 4 people (couples share showers, run only one dishwasher or share laundry loads)

So seeing how there are sears days on sale, I picked up the mid-sized Kenmore Ultrasoft 200, for $658...
Which comes w/ a bypass kit, which is really nice, as you can take the softener out of line for service or in my case, watering the lawn)

I then hit up the home depot, and bought a pair of pex-copper couplers and then bought a 20foot roll of 3/4 pex, 3/4 elbow joints, 3/4 rings and rented a crimper.

I unpacked her, positioned her where I wanted it... used a plumbers torch to heat up the coupler & pipe and soldered them together...
Measured and cut up the pex to the sizes I needed and pre-crimped parts to get a good idea of how to approach the main line.

Shut off the main water line w/ the valve... opened up all the taps upstairs and down... Drained the left over water with a little twisty release vavle on the valve... then cut her open.
Attached the plumbing... crimped it all tight, attached to the bypass on the softener and then secured them.

Then ran the 3/8 hoses (one for the regeneration water and one for overflow) to the drain...

filled her up with 4 20kg bags of salt, added 3 gallons of water, then plugged her in, set the time and hardness levels and started the regeneration cycle.

90 minutes later... voila, soft water.

Now... I did do a bit of a lazy approach... why I say is
#1 - I did not bypass anything, not even to the outside lines.
Why?
Well, I was told that you wouldn't taste the soft water, and you know what... you don't... but you also still prevent calcification which happens quite often with stainless taps, especially kitchen ones even when you are using cold water.
(this being told by a couple plumbers and even sears & home depot)

#2 - I did not bypass my outside lines... WHY? Well, I don't intend on watering my grass with soft water, no.
BUT... being that I have a bypass valve anyways, I just need to just push on a button... just that simple.
HOWEVER the nice thing is... I can wash things outside with soft water, SPOT free! Like my car, and even my dog! lol a spot free black labrador.

Anyways, my impressions are:
this is awesome, and why did I wait so long.

Water feels much better, soaps lather better, clothes feel better... less calcification on toilets/taps and no soap scum.
Also, though its not immediately tangable, it will extend the life of your hot water tank, my LG steam washer/dryer and dish washer.

I really don't know why I waited so long.

Now to explain why I went for (or cheaped out) for the mid-sized as opposed to going for a bigger capcity one such as the 39k or 45k one... is that with only 3 people, it would take more than 7 days to get to the regeneration cycle... in the case of the 45k one, it could take up to 2 weeks or more and this is not a good thing, as certain biological things could build up and the salt has a greater chance to bridge whist idle... If you set a manual timer to regenerate lets say every 7 days... then you'd waste more salt and water as well...

So I went with what everyone recommended

[nonofyobiz]

not sure if it's good to drink tho*?*

I wonder if my water filter gets rid of those calcium and magnesium ions in the water*?*


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_water

[sillysod]

youre supposed to use it only for the hot water, not on the cold. You don't want t cook or drink it regularly.

Just FYI....

[codetrap]

Originally posted by sillysod
youre supposed to use it only for the hot water, not on the cold. You don't want t cook or drink it regularly.

Just FYI....

Why not? Because the additional salt might add something to your diet?

If you really want to reduce your sodium, then stop adding salt to your food.

"As a general rule, an 8-ounce (236 milliliters) glass of softened tap water contains less than 12.5 milligrams of sodium." http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/sodium/AN00317

To put this in perspective, health canada recommends that you should limit yourself to around 1500mg of salt a day. So have fun drinking that 28Liters of water it'll take to kick you over that, per day.

Though, if it really bothers you, you can always switch to potassium instead of salt for your water softening.

[r3ccOs]

Its not like it is a like for like in regards to grains of hardness being exchange for Salt... Its a bit of misconception
The salt brine cleans out the resin beads and yes there is a risidue, but its not like for like replacement... (especially with the flush post backwash features in the newer softeners)

Honestly I cannot taste much of a difference... & the main reason why I didn't bother re-running the line is cause I can always do it later and I wanted to see how it was...

I figured this much, water in its pure form is a solvent... which is why thing disolve in it, in our cases Lime & Calcium... (amongst other things, but Calgary is relatively good otherwise for harmful minerals)

Now that soft water is less saturated with minerals, it has the ability to again absorb... which is why there is no longer soap scum in my showers, water ring in my bath tub and my super clean dishes... along with that, works like a catalyst with soap, and cleans supurbly (my laundry really hasn't ever felt better)

but for consumption, that's where its debatable... thing is, Other than a "bit o' salt" -- is it any worse than drinking distilled water? I don't think it is...

Anyways, I'm still using a Brita for pretty much everything other than boiling food, & even with that I'm finding a huge difference. My coffee maker and my kettle is not building up any residue...

I'm imagining that right now my hot water tank & humidifier are cleaning out as well..

Right now I do not see a point to run a by-pass for my cold water. I might however do that for my rear outside tap, as that side will never need soft water (I don't think)
But for the front, man I want spotfree windows and cars.

This Kenmore softener seems pretty darn good for its price... full of features and is "on-demand manual regeneration"
So essentially the same system as most, who seem to charge way way more for the same thing. Its actualty quite effecient for maximum salt effenciency ratings and does 33,200 @ .87 cuft...
(I was going to opt for the bigger one, but apparently the bigger the beter isn't a always a good idea, you want to regenerate between 7-9 days)

The only thing I'm debating is a "salt effencicy" setting, but I'm not 100% sure exactly what it does other than regenerate alot earlier....

ALSO, what do you guys have your water hardness set to? I never actuality did a litmus paper test, so I just set mine to a ball-park 17, as we have no iron nor maganses in our water.

Also I calculated how much all & all it costed me to install w/ the pex, elbows, fasteners, tin/flux and a rental...
A whopping $27...

Oh & $40 for 10 bags of Sifto Salt @ the HD

[r3ccOs]

http://www.watertreatmentguide.com/a..._softening.htm

some good info

Along with that, Kenmore Water has a huge site with animated diagrams for how to setup, troubleshoot etc... and Sears can provide their in-home services for repair... 9 year warrant tank/resin bed, 3 year mechanical, and 1 year all parts & labor...

really not bad at all for the price for a 33, 200 @ $658 or 39,000 @ $818...

install into a pex lined house is sooo easy

anyways, to factor it in... "if" our water is at most hardness up to 17.3 (as per City of Calgary in the South region in Dec) that would equate to somewhere around 127mg per liter of salt
(Its about a 45% of 1 grain salt replacing 1 grain hardness x 17.1 to figure the mg/l rating)

If you lived off Bearspaw dam, where its typically 11.4 gpg... its significanly less

In the Glenmore Res, its average 15.4, so still typically a little less than 127mg per liter of salt.

So not enough salt to be a concern for consumption....

Gatoraide itself has 110mg per 8oz (1 cup) -- one liter is 33oz (4 cups)

120mg of sodium per liter = 1 piece of white bread

150mg of sodium per cup of Almond Milk (more than 4 times)
125mg sodium per cup of Milk (about 4 times)
60mg sodium for my pressed apple juice.. (about twice)

wow -- overall I think I'm way over my sodium recommendations like most people are..

[r3ccOs]

Spoke to Kenmore themselves -- boy they know their crap...

Kinda blogging my own FAQ here:
All their models use the same valving and programming/electronics (IntelliSoft) in the USA as they do in Canada though the model lines are just a bit different...

They are meters sytems (meaning meters and performs activities on demand)

The Kenmore units have a built in 5 effencency setup that automatically adjusts to provide maximum salt effenency per regeneration... (again Intellisoft)
Unfortunately there is not the ability to adjust the programming manually, as compared to other systems, but its much more user friendly as most people don't do the math between gallons consumed, max salt effenency per lb for the overall size of the resin tank.
This system does it based upon those metrics and will ultimately choose an ideal setup for you over the duration... I was told, takes up to the first 3 weeks to get achieve an optimal setup, so try to avoid performing manual regenerations unless absolutely needed to during, due to guests or higher consumption than normal. (If you happen to, you can reset the unit back to 0 regens and wait again for 3 weeks)

From comparing with many others (whom I've called... i.e. GE, GE Logix, Culligan, etc...) These models come with everything that they do with the exception of one that uses a titanium clorinator pre-rince cycle (but you can get the cleaning powder to throw into the brine tank anyhow...)
Price point? Significantly cheaper *when on sale*, has a comparable warranty, comparable customer service & Sears Kenmore home service.

A tank of 32,000 is sufficient for a family of 4 in this city... This was confirmed w/ Culligan and a couple other sources (such as WA2) regardless south or north.
You want to aim to have regeneration performed between 5-9 days -- no less (as its less effecient on water) and no more as you don't want to harbor bacteria and you want to keep your Resin beads free and conditioned. *most resin tanks become ineffeicent or stop cleansing due to lack of frequency of regeneration, which is why its not recommended to over-provision... (i.e. 45,000 1.5 cu meter resin tank for 3 people can take up to 2-3 weeks between regens in modern homes)

Though its more effecient on Salt to regenerate more often, you still have to run the backwash & rince each time and it uses more water oveall... giving you the debate of water vs salt... but most systems are optimized for both, including the Kenmore)
*review the graph and cost benefits here: http://www.watertreatmentguide.com/a...softening.htm*

Being that most programs are effecient with performing their consumption calculation, the High-Effeciency setting is not required and not suggested. It is only in place for California to reduce the amount of minerals/sediments released per regeneration as a law.

The amount of salt exchanged for grains of hardness is about a little less than half... which is very close to the calculated amount above.... i.e. 15.4 avg hardness x (.45) typical exchange x 17.1 (gpg to mg/l) = 118.5 mg/l or 29.5 mg oer cup So, its quite safe for consumption.
Though many plumbers would suggest running a by-pass line, everyone who is selling the softeners suggest to run a reverse osmosis under the Sink, as it will remove the solubable salts and irons along with providing other purification benefits. However in all the cases, again including Culligan, they have not advised that drinking Soft Water is bad... again as indicated in my post above.

As we don't have much Iron or Manganese in Calgary, we don't need the pre-regenation backwash setup and we don't need any excess time for the backwash/rince cycle. (standard settings are just fine for City lines)

In the south - set the hardness setting to 18 as a rule of thumb (guess glenmore res is full of minerals as its the elbow river glacier runoff)
In the north - set from 12-15 (get tested)

Was also told -- we are low in humidity, salt briding is usually never a problem, but as a precautionary measure... don't fill the Brine tank with more than a half tank of salt... that also prevents briding.
Sifto & Windsor are both recommended, buy either one is cheapest (I found Sifto cheapest @ the HD)

Another question I asked:
Does water get progressively harder before a regeneration is required...
From 3 sources - WA2, Kenmore, & Culligan... the answer is No apparently... either its hard or its soft.

As a result, if lets say you run out of soft water during the day and your recharge is set for 2:00 AM, you'll be out for the duration unless you manually run it (which many people do if they're not intending on running any appliances or plan on taking a bath or shower).

That is the main benefit of the 2 tank systems like Kenetico, as they work in tandum... two smaller resin tanks constantly regenerating while the other tags off using a powerless metering valve that switches the two based on gallons used.
No power required, cause no need for a clock to initiate the valving, just water pressure as you can regenerate at any given time without getting hard water as the other takes over.
I don't think being able to perform the Rinse with the soft water is a huge benefit, but the system is a well thought out system, just not worth $2500 to me.

Benefits: the chart seems a bit optomistic, but I do have to agree, I only need about a penny size dolop of body/hair wash to get the job done...

http://www.kenmorewater.com/website/...r-problems.htm

Hrm... this makes sence, as soft water is more of a solvent, it makes better drinks?
http://www.harveywatersofteners.co.u...ith-soft-water

[r3ccOs]

Originally posted by codetrap


Why not? Because the additional salt might add something to your diet?

If you really want to reduce your sodium, then stop adding salt to your food.

"As a general rule, an 8-ounce (236 milliliters) glass of softened tap water contains less than 12.5 milligrams of sodium." http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/sodium/AN00317

To put this in perspective, health canada recommends that you should limit yourself to around 1500mg of salt a day. So have fun drinking that 28Liters of water it'll take to kick you over that, per day.

Though, if it really bothers you, you can always switch to potassium instead of salt for your water softening.

12.5 mg per cup = 50mg/l = 2.9 gpg of salt used = hardness level of about only 6.2gpg ish water... So that is a very low number where we are anywhere from 11.4 (North avg) - 15.4 (South avg)

In calgary its much closer to 25-29 mg per cup, or 110-125 mg/l, which is still very low & safe for consumption

edit -- I think I had the metrics kinda screwy
Its closer to 44% salt required for removal of hardness (well 43.79%)

so its where in my case:
Hardness (15.04 avg gpg) x Salt required (.4379) = 6.58 grains per gallon
then (converted into mg/l x 17.1) = 112.2mg/l
28.12 mg per cup (8oz)

That's in Auburn Bay where the hardness is hard, but in the North it'd be much less... like 30% less.

Capacity reserve is intresting
Most, including the Kenmore has a built in program to detect whether you have enough capacity to last the next 24hr based on your useage to determine whether to regenerate... if not (less by even a few hours) it will start its regeneration for that morning's cycle. This should provide seemless soft water (outside of the regeneration @ 2:00 AM0

However if you don't or know of higher demands coming forth... The easiest way is to give yourself about a days worth of overhead...
Lets say a typical family of 4 uses 300 gallons a day... you want to give yourself that much added overhead

So that might require adding a point or two (or 3 depending on your size and hardness) to your hardness rating to give you that 300 gallon buffer.

[redblack]

Great info and write up. I ended up buying the same unit from sears and it took me about 2 hours to install, luckily the plumbing in my house had seperate lines to the kitchen sink/fridge and the outside hose bibs so i still have hard water going to them. So far i havent noticed a big difference but we'll see in the next few days.

I didnt see it in the manual but is there a way i can track how many days it takes to regenerate?