Lance Armstrong and other athletic "cheaters"

[dexlargo]

Originally posted by KRyn
Please site some sources, as I would be interested in reading the findings. I am not saying that there are not some repercussions of taking steroids but stating something that bold with no backing is a little extreme.

Really? You don't think there are real side effects?

Again, I'm not a biologist/chemist/pharmacologist/doctor, so Wikipedia is good enough for me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaboli...dverse_effects

Coles notes: Cardiovascular problems (including potential sudden heart failure), liver damage, bitch tits, effects on sperm counts and sexual function, acne, aggression, addiction, baldness, etc., etc.

As for 'roid rage, increases in aggression are certainly there - I've seen it in my father. When he was doing chemotherapy for cancer, in between rounds of chemotherapy he was put on steroids to help him recover. He was always a calm person who had no trouble controlling his anger - when not on steroids. When on the steroids, he would lose his temper regularly - he wouldn't start attacking people or anything, but he would get all shouty and scary kind of angry. This was completely out of character for him, and it stopped whenever he went off of the steroids. He didn't like this effect on him, so he was always trying to get lower doses and off of them as soon as he could.

I know that's a sample of 1 - but I have no trouble accepting the medical reports that indicate increases in aggression are common with the use of steroids.

[KRyn]

Originally posted by dexlargo
Really? You don't think there are real side effects?

Again, I'm not a biologist/chemist/pharmacologist/doctor, so Wikipedia is good enough for me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaboli...dverse_effects

Coles notes: Cardiovascular problems (including potential sudden heart failure), liver damage, bitch tits, effects on sperm counts and sexual function, acne, aggression, addiction, baldness, etc., etc.

As for 'roid rage, increases in aggression are certainly there - I've seen it in my father. When he was doing chemotherapy for cancer, in between rounds of chemotherapy he was put on steroids to help him recover. He was always a calm person who had no trouble controlling his anger - when not on steroids. When on the steroids, he would lose his temper regularly - he wouldn't start attacking people or anything, but he would get all shouty and scary kind of angry. This was completely out of character for him, and it stopped whenever he went off of the steroids. He didn't like this effect on him, so he was always trying to get lower doses and off of them as soon as he could.

I know that's a sample of 1 - but I have no trouble accepting the medical reports that indicate increases in aggression are common with the use of steroids.

The fact that cancer was eating his body and radioactive material was being used to treat it could have nothing to do with his behavior... There are so many factors in this situation that need to be considered. To simply state "oh the only reason he was hating life and everyone was the steroids" is foolish. What kind of doses was he receiving? I regularly interact with people likely taking 5-10x more than him and they are normal people that go to work five days a week and have families. I have never heard of any of them acting / lashing out like that.

The majority of the things you mention are the only side effects that are well known and documented. Liver damage, bitch tits, effects on sperm counts, sexual dysfunction, acne, and baldness are not going to cause you to drop dead like the media would like you to believe. If you abuse anything in life chances are there will be repercussions, likely very serious ones. I am not saying that using such drugs is a-okay and will not have any adverse affects.

[kdwebber]

Originally posted by KRyn


Uhh what? Cortisone is commonly administered to athletes as it is an anti-inflammatory. It is also used to treat arthritis in some people.
However, I am unaware that cortisone can be used to mask tests. Got any readings on the topic, always looking to learn more.

"Cortisone is another naturally occurring steroid hormone. Along with adrenaline, it is produced by the body when it is under stress. Cortisone helps the body prepare for a fight or flight response by increasing blood pressure, but its affects are short term."

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2012-2013/20...oping-101.html


I'll repeat: the creme was used to mask illegal injections of cortisone. Is that clear enough for you?

[KRyn]

Originally posted by kdwebber


"Cortisone is another naturally occurring steroid hormone. Along with adrenaline, it is produced by the body when it is under stress. Cortisone helps the body prepare for a fight or flight response by increasing blood pressure, but its affects are short term."

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2012-2013/20...oping-101.html


I'll repeat: the creme was used to mask illegal injections of cortisone. Is that clear enough for you?

I understand that I am not sure what your point is?
The use of cortisone in this instance was prohibited. I get that. What I meant with my previous statement is that cortisone is so commonly given to athletes in baseball, hockey, football, heck you name it, that it shouldn't be a banned substance.

[kdwebber]

Originally posted by KRyn


I understand that I am not sure what your point is?

The creme was just an excuse to take illegal injections of cortisone. The same cortisone which can be used as a performance enhancer, give you that little edge, that extra little push.

edit:

of course it should be a banned substance, otherwise it would be abused. Regulation is the key, as it is enforced now. Strict regulation and doctor supervision stop it from being abused.

[dexlargo]

Originally posted by KRyn


The fact that cancer was eating his body and radioactive material was being used to treat it could have nothing to do with his behavior... There are so many factors in this situation that need to be considered. To simply state "oh the only reason he was hating life and everyone was the steroids" is foolish. What kind of doses was he receiving? I regularly interact with people likely taking 5-10x more than him and they are normal people that go to work five days a week and have families. I have never heard of any of them acting / lashing out like that.

Nice.

Anyway, we certainly attributed it to the steroids. He didn't act like that while on the chemotherapy (he just acted really sick) and he didn't act like that when he came off of the steroids. He talked about it with his doctor, and the doctor agreed that it was likely a side-effect of the steroids.

I find it interesting that you ask how much he was taking, then state you know people who take 5-10 times more. Do you know how much my father was taking? Sounds like it. But to answer your question, I don't know the dose he had.

You don't have to accept it - it's anecdotal evidence, and I recognize the weaknesses, that's why I said that it's a sample of 1 - it's of limited evidentiary value and I don't think it's proof that everyone should accept, but I do.

The majority of the things you mention are the only side effects that are well known and documented. Liver damage, bitch tits, effects on sperm counts, sexual dysfunction, acne, and baldness are not going to cause you to drop dead like the media would like you to believe. If you abuse anything in life chances are there will be repercussions, likely very serious ones. I am not saying that using such drugs is a-okay and will not have any adverse affects.

All I ever said is that there are serious side effects related to the use of steroids - you disputed that, now you admit it.

My only point was that I wouldn't encourage my son to pursue a sport professionally if I knew that he would have to take drugs with such serious side effects in order to be competitive. That's reason enough for me to try and keep these drugs out of sport.

It sounds like you're trying to convince yourself that your choice to take steroids was a reasonable one.

That's just a guess - I know nothing about you - but if that's the case, I don't really care. You made your own choice and decided that the benefits outweighed the risks.

We do that all the time - we know sky diving is somewhat risky, but we choose to accept that risk for the thrill we receive. We do it with investments - We might lose it all, but we take the chance. Sometimes we choose to jay-walk - we might get a ticket (or run over), but we assess the probability of getting caught (or run over) as so remote that the 30-60 seconds saved outweighs that risk. Making those kinds of choices doesn't make you a bad person.

As long as you take steroids in circumstances that don't create pressure on others to make the same choice (and you don't hurt anyone), I really don't care if you take them or not.

[KRyn]

Originally posted by dexlargo

All I ever said is that there are serious side effects related to the use of steroids - you disputed that, now you admit it.

I never once said that. I stated that there are "repercussions", how serious they are has yet to be well documented.

In no way was I meaning to marginalize your father having cancer. My uncle died of cancer and I saw first hand how the disease, treatment and cocktail of drugs he was given changed him and caused him to act out. I don't believe that the prescribed steroids caused his behavior. That said, individuals react differently to all sorts of chemicals. Perhaps your dad reacted much differently than my uncle and the others I know who use such drugs.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
Lance Armstrong is cheating douchebag... nothing new here.

As for the rest of this debate.... For international competitions I'd rather play by the rules knowing I did my best no matter what the outcome, than cheat to be a "winner" and be a giant failing discrace when it all comes crumbling down.

Lance Armstrong has proven himself to be a lousy character in real life when he dumped his wife as soon as he got famous, no real surprise his lifetime achievements turned out to be just as lousy. You think he is a good person for finally coming clean? Wrong, just wait until his big paycheck from Oprah to admit in an interview to her directly gets disclosed. Guy is slime... glad he got caught.

And how is he any different than any other famous celebrity/sports person/hero? They all cheat to one degree or another. They all fool around on their wives, they all divorce one or more times, they all live immoral lives. I don't see how Lance Armstrong is any more of a douche, just because he acts the same as the majority of famous people out there. Some just haven't been "caught" yet.

[max_boost]

So much on the line, fame, glory, money, women, etc.

No issues there but when people came out to speak against him, he literally used his money and high powered lawyers to scare them into submission. That's gay. His character is flawed. Another one of those he's only sorry because he got caught dudes.

[Kona9]

Liar Liar Lance on Fire.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by max_boost
So much on the line, fame, glory, money, women, etc.

No issues there but when people came out to speak against him, he literally used his money and high powered lawyers to scare them into submission. That's gay. His character is flawed. Another one of those he's only sorry because he got caught dudes.

Can't argue with that. His continued denial was a bit of a laugh.
(Hello Mark McGwire, Jose Canseco, Marion Jones, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemons, Alex Rodriguez, Jason Giambi, etc, etc, etc, etc...)

[Gman.45]

The "steroids" given to Cancer patients are different than the types of steroids used by athletes and body builders.

Most likely the father in question was on a corticosteroid like "Prednisone" in between treatment cycles. My mother is currently going through this with stage 3/4 follicular lymphoma and that is the steroid she is given.

I also have SLE - systemic Lupus, and I'm on occasion given steroids like Prednisone as well.

Five or six years ago, I worked in the private military company realm and was a pistol/shotgun/carbine instructor, and took up body building with some of my co workers who had been doing it for years. Yes, I did a lot of steroids. Test, Deca, Dball, wyn, tren, and HGH to name a few. I initially lost a lot of fat with a cut cycle, then built a lot of muscle. In six months people didn't recognize me. I went from a porker nearly 300 lbs to size 36 waist and 19" arms. So, I've felt the effects of performance enhancing drugs, and I believe they should remain banned, as now in addition to my other health concerns I have to deal with the repercussions of having used the ones I did. There is no evidence in my health testing that they are responsible, but there isn't any evidence that they aren't either, and if I could do it over, I wouldn't have touched them.

I would agree to a small extent that these types of steroids do affect your mood, but it isn't anything like what the public has been led to believe, or urban myth of "roid rage". The prescribed steroids have absolutely no effect on my mood, but that's just my experience.

[black13]

Originally posted by max_boost
So much on the line, fame, glory, money, women, etc.

No issues there but when people came out to speak against him, he literally used his money and high powered lawyers to scare them into submission. That's gay. His character is flawed. Another one of those he's only sorry because he got caught dudes.

He pretty much showed his real self with those actions.

But of course people still like him because for 10+ years he looked like a hero. The guy who beat cancer, kicked everyone's ass year after year and raised money for cancer. Yet he actually cheated to get there. Some just have a hard time adjusting to the cold hard truth about their heroes.

As they said in the the Dark Knight, "You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

[Z_Fan]

I think Lance ruined a few too many "good" peoples lives with his money and power. But I've always thought he doped. I still think that for the most part, the best of the best dope. They cheat with scientists and doctors who know exactly how to cheat.

As far as I am concerned Lance won 7 tours and will always be the winner. Most if not all of his serious competition was cheating too. Naive or stupid folk might think the rest of the field was clean. Ha that's a fucking laugh. It's not like the field was at any disadvantage at all IMO. His whole team cheated and he beat them (most of the time).

So whatever.

Only thing I fail to understand is why people would actually believe for such a long time that he didn't cheat!?

I'm glad he will come clean. Good for his soul. And it's bullshit in my opinion that any past sponsor would go after him. Fact is, they made their millions and millions of dollars off of Lance already. Why does he owe them anything? The sponsors all got their money's worth. It's not like they're going to give all their cash they took in sales back to their customers that bought their shit because of Armstrong.

Even prize money for winning events. Fuck that shit. I mean, I get that it was all quite the fraud. But who cares. Lance Showed up and put on a show and that drew people who spent money. Period. These event organizers aren't owed a fucking cent in my mind. Deceived yes perhaps. But I think Lance is just one guy and had a whole lot of help from team mates, sponsors, doctors, scientists and probably even a wee bit of corruption for the people doing the tests themselves. Whole thing is a big scam. Lance is NOT the only soul responsible for what transpired here.

Total scapegoat.

And I don't even like the guy. ;-) But seems to me people are always looking for a fall guy and Lance is that guy. Good for him to come clean though. I think that's important for him.

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by max_boost
So much on the line, fame, glory, money, women, etc.

No issues there but when people came out to speak against him, he literally used his money and high powered lawyers to scare them into submission. That's gay. His character is flawed. Another one of those he's only sorry because he got caught dudes.

Damn, you beat me to it.

The beauty part now is that not only is he a dick for lying and doing what he's done to enforce that lie, but I believe he has an agreement now where he's going to roll over on a lot of the people he was involved with. So now he's a dick and a snitch.

[Cos]

.

[CompletelyNumb]

Most public steroid knowledge is fear mongering and myth. Most of the listed side effects in this thread are side effects caused by ABUSE, not simply taking them. And roid rage will never occur in someone whom isn't already very hot headed.

As for Lance, he won. He passed his drug tests. And he was the unfortunate victim of jealousy. When a witch hunt comes your way, you tend to lose. I still respect the guy.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by CompletelyNumb
Most public steroid knowledge is fear mongering and myth. Most of the listed side effects in this thread are side effects caused by ABUSE, not simply taking them. And roid rage will never occur in someone whom isn't already very hot headed.

Yeah, if allowed in professional sports, athletes would never abuse roids, and athletic types aren't hot headed alpha male types at all either, lol.

[black13]

This is on right now and Oprah is grilling his ass.
Can watch it here
http://ownspecial.oprah.com/lancearmstrong.html

Lance is real piece of work. Regarding one of the women he sued...

Lance:"She's one of the people who got run over, and I feel really bad about that, and-"

Oprah:"You sued her."

Lance:"Did we? We sued so many people, I don't remember."