E55 AMG practicality

[Mikko]

That car doesn't have a RIGHT TO LIVE! I have to blast it dead :guns:.. there, it's dead.. :poosie:

It's such a bizarre concept I think. Super large, heavy super strong car that is quite fast, and quite comfortable, but what the hell, gonna go on the track with such a thing costing that much? Then the performance feels wasted, and a SL500 or whatever they are called would be far more comfortable and practical. I'm sure you know what I am talking about.

EDIT: My latest post in this thread, it makes it easier to get into the argument.

---------------------------

Lets explore the implications of mixing performance and luxury into a single vehicle instead of two seperate more dedicated ones. I am not an expert, I just thought of these after thinking for a while about the issue. I am sorry if I made it hard to read and didn't sort it thoroughly. Feel free to add to the lists, and add overall comments.

I am aware that certain things about performance and convinience do reinforce each other, such as very light suspension parts = low unsprung weight, higher chance of avoiding accidents bla bla, but on the other hand, performance only helps that much in traffic, and that can be attained in low level cars such as the Subaru Legacy and Ford Contour for example.

Positive:

1. Requires less transportations (no need for switching)

2. Can race damned fast (i.e. breaking the law) on public roads. Wether or not this is a positive thing is subjective.

3. Requires half the garage/storage space.

4. Racing will be more comfortable (allthough comfort will make it perform worse).

5. Social Tool value is usually higher.


Negative:

1. Safety devices desired for peformance racing are undesirable in a comfort car. This applies if one intends to actually use the performance in a legal way and not race around in traffic (this performance is nearly useless in cities more or less). Thus safety is compromised.

2. Luxury elements in a comfort car are not desirable in a performance car. Such as automatic transmission, large ammounts of sound deadening compounds, Air Conditioning, double-layered windows, several powered items, sun/moonroof, back-seats, suspension tuning for tolerable rides (I am aware of the variable suspension of the E55AMG but I suspect this is more prone to damage and has more mass), overassisted steering, even the long wheelbase required to fit a comfortably sized trunk and rear seat - will harm center of gravity, weight distribution, etc. In other words, these elements counter-act performance.

3. Wear and tear (tyres, brakes, engine) from the two aspects (driving and racing) will both add up. Repairs to either will prevent usage of the other.

4. Certain components will require switching for more of the desired utility/performance. I.e. slicks, softer race compounds, studded winter tyres and what else. This is extra labour.

5. Damage resulting from either performance or just a normal accident will inevitably affect the other. Therefore one puts the other element at risk (like putting the family's car on risk needlessly when going to race on the track) whenever using either element.

6. Fuel economy, emission levels, maintenance frequency and costs, theft and vandalism risks, insurance premiums; will all become worse.

7. Performance car traits such as mid mounted engine, aerodynamic aids, low seating position, are undesirable on convinience cars.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mikko
That car doesn't have a RIGHT TO LIVE! I have to blast it dead :guns:.. there, it's dead.. :poosie:

It's such a bizarre concept I think. Super large, heavy super strong car that is quite fast, and quite comfortable, but what the hell, gonna go on the track with such a thing costing that much? Then the performance feels wasted, and a SL500 or whatever they are called would be far more comfortable and practical. I'm sure you know what I am talking about.

Uhh, I dunno what you are talking about. If my E55 gets delivered on a friday afternoon, rest assured it'll be at Secret Street that night, breaking in the motor down the 1/4 mile strip. What's wrong with a car that does everything? Haul family around comfortably and still be able to run with Vipers down the drag strip?

[Mikko]

Drag racing? Oh, I didn't exactly think of that as actual racing though. Lots of people there seem to drag race in all sorts of cars to the left and right, from stop lights and what else.

I imagine that it would be cheaper and more practical to have two cars, more specialized for their tasks. For that kind of money (how much will it cost anyway?) it's too much of a compromise. That type of engine is just blowing away fuel needlessly when driving normally, it will attract a ton of attention, theft and vandalism chances are probably very high, etc.

[Hakkola]

LOL, theft and vandalism chances are next to zero, at least where I live the more expensive cars get respect, people only vandalize cheap old cars. I have friends with old bimmers who've been keyed, but none of my friends with new bimmers or other nice cars or myself have been vandalized.

What is someone going to do with a stolen E55 AMG? Sell it for parts? Who's gonna buy them?

Secondly it's not wasted, it's bragging rights and prestige, I think it's time for you to get off your high horse saying that anything pleasureable has got to go, seems like to you if it's more than sufficient it's actually shit, c'mon man.

[Mikko]

LOL, theft and vandalism chances are next to zero, at least where I live the more expensive cars get respect, people only vandalize cheap old cars.

Hahaha, what has the world come to, assaulting the old poor ladies of the neighborhood and letting the rich go by..


Secondly it's not wasted, it's bragging rights and prestige, I think it's time for you to get off your high horse saying that anything pleasureable has got to go, seems like to you if it's more than sufficient it's actually shit, c'mon man.

I don't recognize bragging rights and prestige from material possessions. Either way, it's just my opinion, I think it is rude for you to tell me that my opinion is like sitting on a high horse.

I also personally think that one could probably get a lot more car related fun and utility (thus pleasure) from that kind of money, thus my general lack of love for these types of cars.

[yakish]

Originally posted by rage2
Coming soon to my garage (in a few years)... 479hp, mid 12's 1/4 mile...


http://germancarfans.com/photos/3020815.001/1007big.jpg
Cool car. I drove it twice it was amasing:thumbsup: :love:

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mikko
Drag racing? Oh, I didn't exactly think of that as actual racing though. Lots of people there seem to drag race in all sorts of cars to the left and right, from stop lights and what else.

I imagine that it would be cheaper and more practical to have two cars, more specialized for their tasks. For that kind of money (how much will it cost anyway?) it's too much of a compromise. That type of engine is just blowing away fuel needlessly when driving normally, it will attract a ton of attention, theft and vandalism chances are probably very high, etc.

That was just an example Mikko, I will be road coursing the E55 as well in full street trim (street tires, etc). The car will cost about 75K us ($110k cdn), find me a car that will have this kind of power/performance for the same price (stock, with full warranty).

As for fuel economy, it sips the same amount of fuel as the E500, because the supercharger is disengaged via an electromagnetic clutch when you're easy on the pedal.

[Hakkola]

Hey, what can I say, I'm rude. :D

I always said, anyone who tells you you're rude is rude themselves, anyway, I agree, you have your opinion.

Bragging rights and prestige maybe isn't a good thing to say, I'm just trying to prove a point, wouldn't it still be considered utility though? Wouldn't this be a good car to drive your business associates around in who you want to impress??? There's lots of reasons to have a car like this.

Yakish, where/when did you get to drive this?

Ohh, and you also have to remember fuel isn't as big a deal here as it is in Sweden, I think gasoline is much more expensive there isn't it? Fuel economy here isn't such a big deal hence all the SUV's.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mikko
I also personally think that one could probably get a lot more car related fun and utility (thus pleasure) from that kind of money, thus my general lack of love for these types of cars.

Find me something comparable for a cheaper price. I'm looking for a car with real back seats, seats 5 comfortably, and have enough power to leave a huge ass grin on my face when I take the car to the track, drag strip or road course. Something that will pull as hard (if not harder) than my current collection of vehicles.

Go nuts.

[Mikko]

:eek: Can I sit in the rear seat reading the paper, with music of my choice while you go around some road courses then? Should take advantage of the comfort&convinience parts at all times. Heheh..

The price was lower than I expected. How come the SL600 and others are so mad more expensive? E-Class..hmm maybe not as large as I thought either.

[Hakkola]

The 600 series has basically same engine but with more torque and usually has more interior goodies and is classier (interior) than the AMG, a bit less sporty on the interior and exterior.

I think the torque on the E55 is like 520 ft/pounds, while on the s600 I know it's more like 580 or something.

Ohh, and also SL55 is more expensive than the E55 because it's based on a different platform, the S class, so the interiors are quite different apart from obvious differences such as the convertable hardtop.

[Mikko]

Wouldn't this be a good car to drive your business associates around in who you want to impress???

Yes..blah, I hate to say it, but it can have value as a social tool. Though if you aren't into actual business where such a tool is part of your bread income, then why would people want to impress the more shallow ones? Who wants to be liked for their car anyway? That sort of thing.. I don't like it.

And come on, rage, with your funds, can't you keep the things seperate? I'm sure you could build a very very fun (more fun than the E55AMG) track car and have cash to spare for a very comfy road car with backseats and all.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mikko
And come on, rage, with your funds, can't you keep the things seperate? I'm sure you could build a very very fun (more fun than the E55AMG) track car and have cash to spare for a very comfy road car with backseats and all.

That's why I still have the 944 turbo and the SLK 32 AMG. There's nothing wrong in being able to have a large family sedan that meets my practical needs but can also (out)run my other 2 cars.

[[GaGe]]

haha.. another one of mikko's arguments.

[Mikko]

Ah here we go. I'm expecting the more rude members to arrive soon with their flamethrowers and napalm.. that always happens when you split a thread. At least you didn't name it "Mikko's" this time.

I posted once more in the original thread, didn't see this. Have fun puzzling it over ;)

My main argument is that: A car like the one you want must be compromised in some way, and that splitting the desired characteristics into two should prove more successful (For when are they both needed at the same time? Probably never).

Btw I don't know much about this car, only the type of car in general.

[van]

Originally posted by Mikko
I don't recognize bragging rights and prestige from material possessions.

If you had any material possessions maybe you'd think differently.

[Mikko]

Originally posted by defekt1


If you had any material possessions maybe you'd think differently.

I have material posessions. Are you suggesting that it is an inherent trait of all human beings to succumb to consumerism and marketing/media enforced image building? Measuring a person (at least a little) by the size of their wallet/posessions?

[turboMiata]

Originally posted by rage2


Find me something comparable for a cheaper price. I'm looking for a car with real back seats, seats 5 comfortably, and have enough power to leave a huge ass grin on my face when I take the car to the track, drag strip or road course. Something that will pull as hard (if not harder) than my current collection of vehicles.

Go nuts.

You know and I know, the M5 may be old, but it still rox!! Unfortunately it falls short on the drag strip so there, :thumbsup: :thumbsup: for the E55.

For me, the only thing more appealing about the concept of a 5 seater that has 500hp. LOL. Is a 5 seater wagon with 500hp.

I'll take my E55 black on black please.

[R-Audi]

I'd take an Audi RS6
450hp, Twin Turbo V8
Quattro
Tunability of a turbo engine...

[Glowrider]

M5 owners frequently have track days. The M5 weighs 4100 lbs., and is in the same class as the E55. No reason you can't take it to the track. Not a waste at all IMO.

These cars were bred for the Autobahn. Fast luxo-sedans, to get executives from point A to point B, in comfort, and in time. :)\


You know and I know, the M5 may be old, but it still rox!! Unfortunately it falls short on the drag strip so there

Falls short on the strip my ass. If you know what you're doing with a stickshift, you can pull 13.00's all day from a stock M5. Remember, the M5 did hold the world record as the fastest production sedan for quite some time.

[James]

Ahhh, i love Mikko's arguements :rofl:


Originally posted by Glowrider




Falls short on the strip my ass. If you know what you're doing with a stickshift, you can pull 13.00's all day from a stock M5. Remember, the M5 did hold the world record as the fastest production sedan for quite some time.


he was saying it falls short compared to the 12.4 of the E55 AMG

[Glowrider]

Yeah, that's the old M5. When the E60 comes out with the 550 hp V10..I'm sure it will put up a good fight. Although, it will be ass ugly. I'd still rather have the E39 M5 over an E55, though.

[kaput]

.

[rage2]

Originally posted by kaput
What will it look like?

It looks like a Pontiac Grand Prix with the 7 series ass.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mikko
My main argument is that: A car like the one you want must be compromised in some way, and that splitting the desired characteristics into two should prove more successful (For when are they both needed at the same time? Probably never).

MUST be compromised? Why? If I don't need to compromise and have comfort AND performance, why should I compromise? Why not ride in comfort, and be able to get sucked back into the seat on command without having to go home and switch cars? How about taking 4 friends with me on a roadcourse?

[CRXguy]

Originally posted by turboMiata
For me, the only thing more appealing about the concept of a 5 seater that has 500hp. LOL. Is a 5 seater wagon with 500hp.

Great minds think alike!:D

[Glowrider]

It looks like a Pontiac Grand Prix with the 7 series ass.

Bingo.

As far as compromising. There's no need to. The sport sedan segment is a pretty lucrative one. BMW, Mercedes and Audi dominate this market. Now we see Volvo getting into the act with the S60R, which is a horrible failure...but to be fair it's their first try.

If I had the money, I wouldn't even think twice about getting myself an M5.

[kaput]

.

[Fuji]

There is a write up on the M5 vs the E55... something about hte M5 being more of a drivers car... I dunno if you read it it not....
Personally the E55 is pretty damn nice and fast on the track too.


Edit: here is the article for you guys to look at - www.evo.co.uk

[HRD2PLZ]

I always thought the E55's were more than $110k. I optioned my E500 to just over $96K. Maybe I'll go for the AMG too :D :thumbsup: (eventually)

[szw]

Originally posted by James
Ahhh, i love Mikko's arguements :rofl:


Don't blame him. that's just what socialism does to a person!

heh ;)

[Mikko]

No socialism here. Good ol evil capitalism. One can always wish though :D

[three.eighteen.]

i love the german's idea of "it can go fast, look nice, and hold your coffee too" it just makes a car feel so much more completed...don't get me wrong, i also love the barebones, less stuff on the inside factory racer, ie neon acr, ITR...but its like women...sure you can have the ones that JUST go fast and look hot...or you can have the ones that will cook, clean, fold laundry AND go fast and look hot...

[R-Audi]

sure you can have the ones that JUST go fast and look hot...or you can have the ones that will cook, clean, fold laundry AND go fast and look hot...
:clap: :rofl:

[Glowrider]

European cars have it all man. Can't go wrong.

[SilverRex]

Originally posted by rage2


That's why I still have the 944 turbo and the SLK 32 AMG. There's nothing wrong in being able to have a large family sedan that meets my practical needs but can also (out)run my other 2 cars.

944 Turbo, slk AMG AND E55 ??? :drool:
Man I wish I can be reborn as your son.. 'dad can I borrow your SLK AMG, tonight, since your happily taken the E55 to go pick mom up.. lol

Mikko: in the end its a loose loose debate.. if ones got the money, can get what ever they want. at least the E55 is one fine dam nice car I must agree. and for the general population, it can always be a sleeper too.

Rage: how much would insurance be for all 3 cars you figure?

[syeve]

It’s all economic...
A person that makes $50k a year will have no problem buying a $25k car.
A person that makes $200k a year spend the same % on a car...$100k

General economic rule...the more people make, the more they will spend.

Why should a person that CAN afford a $100,000 car have to explain him/herself?

Jealousy is a terrible human trait.

[HRD2PLZ]

Originally posted by syeve
It’s all economic...
A person that makes $50k a year will have no problem buying a $25k car.
A person that makes $200k a year spend the same % on a car...$100k

General economic rule...the more people make, the more they will spend.

Why should a person that CAN afford a $100,000 car have to explain him/herself?

Jealousy is a terrible human trait.

Generally true, but not always the case. My dad makes more than me or anyone else would have thought. He's mortgage free, all of our cars are paid for and their vacation properties are paid for. He is so cheap when it comes to cars (until fairly recently). He would be happy driving my sisters 96 Contour :rofl:

[rage2]

Originally posted by SilverRex
Rage: how much would insurance be for all 3 cars you figure?

I pay about $1000-$1200 per car.

[syeve]

Originally posted by HRD2PLZ
Generally true, but not always the case.

thats the problem with economics...there are always assumtions and exceptions, but like you said, generally true.

[Mikko]

Originally posted by rage2


MUST be compromised? Why? If I don't need to compromise and have comfort AND performance, why should I compromise? Why not ride in comfort, and be able to get sucked back into the seat on command without having to go home and switch cars? How about taking 4 friends with me on a roadcourse?

There's no such thing as a free lunch. You can't have the best of both, only a compromise. A really good compromise in your eyes, and many others. It's all up to you (I am not challenging your choice of this car, I only said earlier that I didn't like the car itself).


Originally posted by Glowrider
European cars have it all man. Can't go wrong.

:eek: talk about generalization. Okay, let me get you a low end Fiat :D


Originally posted by SilverRex
If ones got the money, can get what ever they want.

I think you are stating the obvious, dear SilverRex. :)


Originally posted by syeve
It’s all economic...
A person that makes $50k a year will have no problem buying a $25k car.
A person that makes $200k a year spend the same % on a car...$100k

General economic rule...the more people make, the more they will spend.

Why should a person that CAN afford a $100,000 car have to explain him/herself?

Jealousy is a terrible human trait.

I've never seen proof of that it is like that. My cousins and their very very rich father are nothing like that. He only has a BMW 5 series because the other business people won't take him seriously otherwise (he's complained about that shallowness for some time).

Of course no one needs to explain themselves. Who said they did?

What are you talking about with jealousy?

[MrX]

Originally posted by Mikko

My main argument is that: A car like the one you want must be compromised in some way, and that splitting the desired characteristics into two should prove more successful (For when are they both needed at the same time? Probably never).


Like most have said, why should you compromise luxery and performance when you don't have to.

When you are on the highway with your four door sedan packed with your family and all that luggage and stuck behind a semi and wanting to pass, would you:

(a) want a gutless car that prolly won't make it pass before someone in the oncoming lane forces you back, or

(b) an E55 where you can stomp on the gas an GO!

[Mikko]

How about either keeping my distance or having a moderately fast car? I don't think I'd ever buy a daily driver with over 150hp.

You can have both but it will be a compromise.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mikko
There's no such thing as a free lunch. You can't have the best of both, only a compromise. A really good compromise in your eyes, and many others. It's all up to you (I am not challenging your choice of this car, I only said earlier that I didn't like the car itself).

I never said I wanted the best. If I wanted the best, I'd have a McLaren F1 for performance, and a Maybach or something for comfort, both being WELL beyond my price range.

I'm saying for the money, you can't beat the E55 in terms of comfort AND performance. It's definately in the top 5% in both categories.

You hate the car so much, find me something that offers close to what the E55 has to offer.

[Glowrider]

I hate when this happens. When my sister got her X5, someone at her school keyed it the first day. WTF is up with that? If someones got money, let them spend it, it's none of our business what someone else does with their money. They don't need to explain themselves to anyone, not you, not me, not their friends, no one.

[MrX]

Originally posted by Mikko


There's no such thing as a free lunch. You can't have the best of both, only a compromise. A really good compromise in your eyes, and many others. It's all up to you (I am not challenging your choice of this car, I only said earlier that I didn't like the car itself).



Now why can't both performance and luxery coexist?? Take the E55 for example, you have all the luxeries of you typical mercedes benz with the performance (engine performance wise) of 911T, Vipers, etc...As for handling characteristics these cars aren't poor handlers by any means.

[Mikko]

Originally posted by rage2


I never said I wanted the best. If I wanted the best, I'd have a McLaren F1 for performance, and a Maybach or something for comfort, both being WELL beyond my price range.

I'm saying for the money, you can't beat the E55 in terms of comfort AND performance. It's definately in the top 5% in both categories.

You hate the car so much, find me something that offers close to what the E55 has to offer.

Yup, probably true about "for the money" - but only for getting those traits into one vehicle. I don't think mixing genres too much is a good idea for a vehicle, so you I will just suggest splitting the desirable traits into two vehicles. :) Again..yes.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mikko
I don't think mixing genres too much is a good idea for a vehicle, so you I will just suggest splitting the desirable traits into two vehicles. :)

OK let's try to figure out your logic here. Why is mixing comfort with performance a bad idea? Very curious...

[Glowrider]

Why is mixing comfort with performance a bad idea?

Thats what I'd like to know. If not for the advantage of having both comfort and performance, there's got to be another reason that this market segment (sport sedans) is so insanely popular right now.

[three.eighteen.]

cus only really manly men can stand hardcore race cars, they need nothing more than a steering wheel, tach and pedals...thats why all those NASCAR guys are all macho

[Stratus_Power]

you saying Rage should get a Dodge viper for racing, a Range rover and a 7-seris?

[Mikko]

Lets explore the implications of mixing performance and luxury into a single vehicle instead of two seperate more dedicated ones. I am not an expert, I just thought of these after thinking for a while about the issue. I am sorry if I made it hard to read and didn't sort it thoroughly. Feel free to add to the lists, and add overall comments.

I am aware that certain things about performance and convinience do reinforce each other, such as very light suspension parts = low unsprung weight, higher chance of avoiding accidents bla bla, but on the other hand, performance only helps that much in traffic, and that can be attained in low level cars such as the Subaru Legacy and Ford Contour for example.

Positive:

1. Requires less transportations (no need for switching)

2. Can race damned fast (i.e. breaking the law) on public roads. Wether or not this is a positive thing is subjective.

3. Requires half the garage/storage space.

4. Racing will be more comfortable (allthough comfort will make it perform worse).

5. Social Tool value is usually higher.


Negative:

1. Safety devices desired for peformance racing are undesirable in a comfort car. This applies if one intends to actually use the performance in a legal way and not race around in traffic (this performance is nearly useless in cities more or less). Thus safety is compromised.

2. Luxury elements in a comfort car are not desirable in a performance car. Such as automatic transmission, large ammounts of sound deadening compounds, Air Conditioning, double-layered windows, several powered items, sun/moonroof, back-seats, suspension tuning for tolerable rides (I am aware of the variable suspension of the E55AMG but I suspect this is more prone to damage and has more mass), overassisted steering, even the long wheelbase required to fit a comfortably sized trunk and rear seat - will harm center of gravity, weight distribution, etc. In other words, these elements counter-act performance.

3. Wear and tear (tyres, brakes, engine) from the two aspects (driving and racing) will both add up. Repairs to either will prevent usage of the other.

4. Certain components will require switching for more of the desired utility/performance. I.e. slicks, softer race compounds, studded winter tyres and what else. This is extra labour.

5. Damage resulting from either performance or just a normal accident will inevitably affect the other. Therefore one puts the other element at risk (like putting the family's car on risk needlessly when going to race on the track) whenever using either element.

6. Fuel economy, emission levels, maintenance frequency and costs, theft and vandalism risks, insurance premiums; will all become worse.

7. Performance car traits such as mid mounted engine, aerodynamic aids, low seating position, are undesirable on convinience cars.

[Glowrider]

You forgot about the fact that you can run down most cars you'll meet on the street, on your way to the Waldorf Estoria (or any other nice restaraunt/hotel/function), and still show up with class.

[Mikko]

Originally posted by Glowrider
You forgot about the fact that you can run down most cars you'll meet on the street, on your way to the Waldorf Estoria (or any other nice restaraunt/hotel/function

2. Can race damned fast (i.e. breaking the law) on public roads. Wether or not this is a positive thing is subjective.


Originally posted by Glowrider
.. and still show up with class.

5. Social-Tool value is usually higher.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mikko
1. Safety devices desired for peformance racing are undesirable in a comfort car. This applies if one intends to actually use the performance in a legal way and not race around in traffic (this performance is nearly useless in cities more or less). Thus safety is compromised.

A Porsche 996 Twin turbo doesn't come with "performance racing safety" such as 5 point seat belts, roll cages, etc. I guess that makes them dangerous too.


Originally posted by Mikko
2. Luxury elements in a comfort car are not desirable in a performance car. Such as automatic transmission, large ammounts of sound deadening compounds, Air Conditioning, double-layered windows, several powered items, sun/moonroof, back-seats,

12.4@117mph. It doesn't matter if it has all that stuff, the performance is still there.


Originally posted by Mikko
suspension tuning for tolerable rides (I am aware of the variable suspension of the E55AMG but I suspect this is more prone to damage

God how I missed your "make it up by the minute" technical analysis of things.


Originally posted by Mikko
even the long wheelbase required to fit a comfortably sized trunk and rear seat - will harm center of gravity

The car self lowers at speed, thus improving center of gravity. COG has nothing to do with long wheelbase.


Originally posted by Mikko
In other words, these elements counter-act performance.

Once again, 12.4@117mph.


Originally posted by Mikko
3. Wear and tear (tyres, brakes, engine) from the two aspects (driving and racing) will both add up. Repairs to either will prevent usage of the other.

Uhh, so buy new tires, new brakes. How is that a negative? You've got performance, expect that stuff to wear.


Originally posted by Mikko
4. Certain components will require switching for more of the desired utility/performance. I.e. slicks, softer race compounds, studded winter tyres and what else. This is extra labour.

That goes the same for "performance cars". I'd like to see you drive a "performance car" on the street with slicks or soft race compound tires. Wait a minute... according to your logic, those cars don't belong on the street anyways, better buy a trailer to tow 'em home with the newly purchased Mikko logic SUV (the utility only vehicle).


Originally posted by Mikko
5. Damage resulting from either performance or just a normal accident will inevitably affect the other. Therefore one puts the other element at risk (like putting the family's car on risk needlessly when going to race on the track) whenever using either element.

Great logic. I guess whatever cars you take on the track, you're putting your own life at risk. Which would be terrible for your family. Guess we should just ban race tracks. Professionals only!


Originally posted by Mikko
6. Fuel economy, emission levels, maintenance frequency and costs, theft and vandalism risks, insurance premiums; will all become worse.

Fuel economy depends on how you drive. If you drive hard, you pay for more gas. Drive it easy and comfortably, it'll sip the same as a "non perforamnce" model. Emissions levels? Same deal. Maintainance freq. is the same for AMG and non AMG models. Theft and vandalism, man, try stealing a Mercedes Benz. It's easier to steal a Honda. Insurance Premiums are close if you've got a good record and you're over 25. My insurance went up $50 a year when I moved from the SLK 320 to the SLK 32. Hardly a huge dent in my pocket for moving up to a "performance model".


Originally posted by Mikko
7. Performance car traits such as mid mounted engine, aerodynamic aids, low seating position, are undesirable on convinience cars.

It's not a performance only car, it's a comfort car with very good performance for what it's packaged in (as I've said 1000 times).

God I love these winter debates :D.

[SilverRex]

Originally posted by rage2


I pay about $1000-$1200 per car.

annually?

[rage2]

Originally posted by SilverRex
annually?

Yep. It's nice being an old guy.

[Mikko]

Originally posted by rage2
[B] A Porsche 996 Twin turbo doesn't come with "performance racing safety" such as 5 point seat belts, roll cages, etc. I guess that makes them dangerous too.

Yes quite. But installing them is quite feasable, while I doubt E55AMG owners would consider it feasable for their car.


12.4@117mph. It doesn't matter if it has all that stuff, the performance is still there...Once again, 12.4@117mph.

It harms all performance never the less, making it less enjoyable when put to the track, autoX or whatever. :D


The car self lowers at speed, thus improving center of gravity. COG has nothing to do with long wheelbase.

I am aware of that. I looked at my post and it can be read like that, but it is supposed to say that convinience things in general will harm performance like described. A sunroof, higher mounted seats, double layered windows will for example do those things.


Uhh, so buy new tires, new brakes. How is that a negative? You've got performance, expect that stuff to wear.

Sure but isn't it expensive to replace say, huge ceramic high performance brakes just from driving casually for a while? Isn't that a waste of ones money?


That goes the same for "performance cars". I'd like to see you drive a "performance car" on the street with slicks or soft race compound tires. Wait a minute... according to your logic, those cars don't belong on the street anyways, better buy a trailer to tow 'em home with the newly purchased Mikko logic SUV (the utility only vehicle).

:thumbsup: except the SUV part.


Great logic. I guess whatever cars you take on the track, you're putting your own life at risk. Which would be terrible for your family. Guess we should just ban race tracks. Professionals only!

You must have misread somewhere. I did not talk about risks to life and limb. I said that when you risk the 2-in-1 car instead of having two seperate cars you basically put the family car at risk (and all it's convinence features that are not needed when driving on the track anyway) needlessly at risk. If you had a seperate car for track racing you wouldn't worry about smashing up the powered seats, cracking the sunroof and what else, and even if you make it undrivable from an accident, you still have the other comfortable convinient car there for the family.


Fuel economy depends on how you drive. If you drive hard, you pay for more gas. Drive it easy and comfortably, it'll sip the same as a "non perforamnce" model. Emissions levels? Same deal.

Can it really get the same kind of numbers like a 140hp sedan of the same size?


Theft and vandalism..

What about vandalism? And won't serious car theives try for it considering it's extremely high value?


It's not a performance only car, it's a comfort car with very good performance for what it's packaged in.

Indeed it does. But splitting it into two cars could yield more performance and more convinience.


God I love these winter debates :D

:thumbsup: but I'm getting pretty sick of writing QUOTE /QUOTE every few phrases!

[Glowrider]

Wear and tear (tyres, brakes, engine) from the two aspects (driving and racing) will both add up. Repairs to either will prevent usage of the other.

Doesn't matter. Ballers are ballers, any which way you put it. People with these cars can afford to repair and replace the parts as needed. The massive amount of M5 owners who frequently spend time on the track can attest to this. Stuart Appleby, for example, the pro golf player, spends QUITE a bit of time on the track @ Moroso in Palm Beach Gardens, FL, and at Homestead in Miami, FL...in his NOWACK tuned M5. He's not the only M5er there either.

A friend of my dad's, Mark Odin. Has a Dinan tuned M5, and he's at the track pretty much every weekend, racing his car, with full interior and NavTV. He's also an instructor.

I can keep going and naming names if you want me to.

From what I've seen, AMG owners don't hit the track nearly as much as the M car owners do. Maybe because all the current AMG cars available for the US are only available in automatic. Who knows...?

Having a car with comfort and break neck speed is possible. It just costs alot of money to do it. BMW and MB have married the two aspects of cars together quite successfully, and I suspect they will continue to do so, for quite some time.

[Mikko]

Mmhm, I'm sure that is of no concern to rich people, but the fact remains.

[Glowrider]

Yeah, and it remains for every other car out there. Shit breaks and you fix it. No matter if it's a $90,000 sport sedan, or a $1500 Mustang. Granted the luxury car parts will be more expensive, but that's what a college education and a good job is for.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Glowrider
From what I've seen, AMG owners don't hit the track nearly as much as the M car owners do. Maybe because all the current AMG cars available for the US are only available in automatic. Who knows...?

It's probably more to do with age, a lot of the "younger" AMG owners track their cars down in the states. C32's are quite competitive down in the Solo2 circles. Remember, average age of MB owner is like 52 or something.

The AMG auto's an advantage at the track IMO. Same goes for SMG-II.

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by Mikko

what about vandalism? And won't serious car theives try for it considering it's extremely high value?

I doubt it, at least not here, it could be a different story somewhere in the U.S though, I just don't know of too many people who would want to buy a stolen E55 AMG, and probably the biggest reason for stealing a car is to part it out, I don't think many E55 owners look for parts on the black market.

As for driving this car on the track and being afraid of breaking a power seat or anything I wouldn't be too worried, a lot of the sports cars with this kind of performance also have some pretty expensive features.

I'm also kind of curious, what would be safer to crash, an E class Benz or a Porsche, or other sports cars??? I think personally I'd feel safer in the Benz.

[RiCE-DaDDy]

mikko over here, the number one stolen car is the civic/integra...that kind of car

[Glowrider]

The AMG auto's an advantage at the track IMO. Same goes for SMG-II.

I know for a fact that SMG-II is better suited for the track. Reason being that it is a true manual transmission. It has to be in neutral to start the car. It's just sequential, not stickshift. It can change gears and be making power at the rear wheels in 0.08 seconds, faster than any human ever could.

I'm not familiar with AMG's 4matic or whatever it's called. But from the sound of the name I'm pretty sure it's just an auto with a "sport shift" or whatever. According to car mag reviews of these cars, they said that the newer AMG slushbox' are majorly improved over those in previous cars, however, I can't see the advantage of an automatic at the road course or auto-x setup.

But you are right, the average owner of AMG cars is a bit older here in the states. While the average owner of an M car is in the mid-late 20's. That's including the M5.

[eur0]

it has been argued and i agree that for the money I would expect a look that is a little more exotic looking, but that is really personal taste...

[Glowrider]

As the owner of an M car, I have to accept the fact that AMG cars are my natural enemy. But off the record, they are very nice cars. And I really wouldn't mind having a W210 E55 AMG, however, I'm not loving the new E-class, or the CLK for that matter.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Glowrider
I'm not familiar with AMG's 4matic or whatever it's called. But from the sound of the name I'm pretty sure it's just an auto with a "sport shift" or whatever. According to car mag reviews of these cars, they said that the newer AMG slushbox' are majorly improved over those in previous cars, however, I can't see the advantage of an automatic at the road course or auto-x setup.

The advantage is that it can downshift easily and smoothly into 1st gear on very tight corners or u-turns that require it. It stays in the right gear automatically, torque converter locked so you have the same driveline feel as a manual tranny car, allowing you to concentrate on the 80 corners that you need to nail perfectly for that killer time. The SMG-II I've never tried, I'm considering it for my next car if the SMG-II works as nice as I think it would.

At the road course, the risk of a missed downshift is completely eliminated, therefore one can brake very late into the corners right at the limit, without suffering the risks of a missed shift.

BTW - it's called Speedshift on the AMG trannies, and the shifts are blazing quick. On a dyno, you can see very clearly that there's no loss of power on shifts, equivilent to a power shift on a manual transmission car.

Some people have argued in countless Auto vs MT threads (I've participated in many) that an auto tranny takes the fun out of road coursing the car. I find it more enjoyable since I can take the car to the absolute limits under braking without risking an accident. Trail braking == huge adreneline rush (especially when you're so at the limit, you're trail braking and oversteering into the corner).

[Glowrider]

You'd love SMG-II. Nothing like putting it in S6, moving the shifter into manual mode, turning off DSC, and letting it rip. It has launch control, you can make the car do a clutch dump if you want to. But the really stupid thing is, that using launch control more than 30 times will void your warranty, and the car will only let you use it once per hour. Plus, it's not explained in the instruction manual. And on USDM cars, you can only do it from about 1900 rpm's...as opposed to the limit of around 4k rpm's in European models.

SMG-III will be out soon, and is said to be an option for the upcoming E60 M5...as great as SMG-II is, and as great as SMG-III will be...it won't save the E60 5-series from it's horrid looks.

I see an AMG car in my future, if they could use some variation of BMW's SMG transmissions, or even a CVT would be great. :)

[James]

4 pages, and Mikko has got nowhere with this agrument.

[Glowrider]

True, but alot of the 4 pages has been people like me and rage2 conversing back and forth.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Glowrider
SMG-III will be out soon, and is said to be an option for the upcoming E60 M5...as great as SMG-II is, and as great as SMG-III will be...it won't save the E60 5-series from it's horrid looks.

I read reports that the E60 M5 is getting a 7 speed SMG-III tranny mated to the car. Wonder what the SMG-III has over the SMG-II? If it's a better/smoother Auto mode, that would be nice, I heard SMG-II isn't exactly super smooth in auto mode.


Originally posted by Glowrider
I see an AMG car in my future, if they could use some variation of BMW's SMG transmissions, or even a CVT would be great. :)

Too bad you don't live up here, we could swap cars for a day or two and you'll see that the AMG's speedshift tranny is very well suited to performance driving. I'd really like to try the M3 SMG-II out myself, if the wife likes the way the SMG tranny works, we'd get that over the E55 (my dad would buy the E55).

[Glowrider]

I heard SMG-II isn't exactly super smooth in auto mode.

Well it doesn't drive in auto mode like a Lexus or a Range Rover, but's not as bad as the Honda auto's either. But then again, it's not really an auto, it's actually a manual tranmission with an automatic mode. It's not so bad, besides...you've got to give up some comfort for the performance aspect of the SMG-II, and I for one, REALLY don't mind. :)

[rage2]

Originally posted by Glowrider
It's not so bad, besides...you've got to give up some comfort for the performance aspect of the SMG-II, and I for one, REALLY don't mind. :)

Yea, but my wife will be driving too, so I have to factor that into the equation :D.

[Glowrider]

Get her the convertible. That will make up for any complaints she has about the SMG-II transmission, which isn't that bad to begin with.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Glowrider
Get her the convertible. That will make up for any complaints she has about the SMG-II transmission, which isn't that bad to begin with.

Already got the SLK 32 for that... we're actually in the market for a "shared" vehicle between us, something that's big enough to carry more people around. Right now it's the E55, C32, and M3 SMG as our options, but it looks more and more like we'll go for the E55 with my parents buying the C32. The M3 SMG is sort of off the list until I can get my hands on a SMGII car to see how the tranny is, I've driven a few M3 6 speeds and I really like the car.

[mischief]

Originally posted by Mikko


Sure but isn't it expensive to replace say, huge ceramic high performance brakes just from driving casually for a while? Isn't that a waste of ones money?

Umm, if you track a car, you must expect this stuff to wear and be willing to pay to replace it. The E55 doesn't have ceramic brakes anyway, but ceramic brakes are less prone to wear as they resist heat better.


Originally posted by Mikko


You must have misread somewhere. I did not talk about risks to life and limb. I said that when you risk the 2-in-1 car instead of having two seperate cars you basically put the family car at risk (and all it's convinence features that are not needed when driving on the track anyway) needlessly at risk. If you had a seperate car for track racing you wouldn't worry about smashing up the powered seats, cracking the sunroof and what else, and even if you make it undrivable from an accident, you still have the other comfortable convinient car there for the family.

Buddy, we don't race our cars like they do in CART and F-1. We're not stupid enough to push the car way above its limits. So the risk of crashing your car at the track it pretty slim. I am interested in hearing how you plan to smash up the power seats and crack the sunroof at the track.


Originally posted by Mikko


Can it really get the same kind of numbers like a 140hp sedan of the same size?

K if you can afford the car, you can afford to pay for the gas. You think your 140 hp sedan will have enough power so you can confidently pass on the highway?


Originally posted by Mikko


Indeed it does. But splitting it into two cars could yield more performance and more convinience.

Have you ever though of it this way. If you buy say a civic or a mustang and tune it for track use, you pretty much void your warrenty. Now with say an AMG, BMW M series, or Audi S series car, your getting a very good track car out of the box with the coverage of a manufactures warranty.


Originally posted by Mikko


2. Luxury elements in a comfort car are not desirable in a performance car. Such as automatic transmission, large ammounts of sound deadening compounds, Air Conditioning, double-layered windows, several powered items, sun/moonroof, back-seats, suspension tuning for tolerable rides (I am aware of the variable suspension of the E55AMG but I suspect this is more prone to damage and has more mass), overassisted steering, even the long wheelbase required to fit a comfortably sized trunk and rear seat - will harm center of gravity, weight distribution, etc. In other words, these elements counter-act performance.

If you read the latest test, the SMG and Speedshift tranny can shift faster than any human being with a manual tranny. So these auto's should not hinder the performance of a car.


Originally posted by rage2


The M3 SMG is sort of off the list until I can get my hands on a SMGII car to see how the tranny is, I've driven a few M3 6 speeds and I really like the car.

CGY BMW has a few on there lot. One being a used one for sale. I'm sure you could get a test drive there.

[Alpine Autowerks]

Originally posted by Mikko
and a SL500 or whatever they are called would be far more comfortable and practical. --


The E55 is lighter than the SL500...

:confused: