Horsepower vs Torque

[GTS Jeff]

I think we need one of these threads again. :) So, which is better and why?

[Weapon_R]

Isn't horsepower a byproduct of torque? If that is true, what would it matter since without torque, you wouldn't have anything...

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
Isn't horsepower a byproduct of torque? If that is true, what would it matter since without torque, you wouldn't have anything... it also depends on rpms as well....so yea u can have no torque but high revs can make up for it.

[RiCE-DaDDy]

one prob, the options are check boxes, i chose nnnnaaaaaaawwsss and hp by accident. hp is bout how the trq is used, produced, mainupulated. thats why u dont see diesels running around on race tracks

[Ben]

Torque!

[eur0]

yea true, high rpms make up for a lack in torque, works for me

[buh_buh]

Originally posted by tbk49
yea true, high rpms make up for a lack in torque, works for me
nothing can make up for lack of torque man.

[BarryBeach]

i'm a vee dub fan ... so tourqe :bigpimp:

[EstoMax]

vdubs pwn!

max

[350hp_or_Bust]

I voted for both hp and tq ... I like engines with the same or maybe a little more hp than tq ... i.e. 300 ft-lbs@3200RPM and 320hp@5800RPM ... with a very flat TQ curve. that'd be a fun motor to bag on.

[CalgarySS]

Torque is everything.

PEAK hp means nothing.

[rage2]

Originally posted by buh_buh
nothing can make up for lack of torque man.

Revs make up for tq (assuming you can make the same amount of tq at high rpms).

Look at the F1 cars, only around 230tq, but at 18000rpm, that's a whopping 788hp. Match the gearing with a 18000rpm motor and you'll make more TQ at the wheels in each gear than a Viper.

[THREE40SEVEN]

Cut and pasted from my last post:
"Torque gets you out of the hole, and HP gets you down the track, or wins the race. Do you think a diesel truck with the same torque as my car at the same weight and gearing would beat me if it had 150 less hp? Nope. Torque is work, and hp is the relation to it over time.
Imagine a long breaker bar on your crankshaft bolt, and you turning the engine over with it by hand. You ability to turn the engine over is torque, and how fast you can turn it over, over ____ amount of time is HP.
Dont get me wrong, a torquey car is WAY more fun to drive.."

I didnt feel like typing the same thing in different words..

[THREE40SEVEN]

In relation to what? Racing? Towing?
The real answer is torque, as engines dont "make" HP.

[Ed the SOHC]

Originally posted by buh_buh

nothing can make up for lack of torque man.

wishful thinking and ricer fly-by's make up for torque...:D

[syeve]

Originally posted by CalgarySS
Torque is everything.

PEAK hp means nothing.

Thats why you see so many disel trucks at the drag strip and at the track...thanks for clearing that up for everybody.:thumbsdow

like rage said...F1 cars...enough said.

[Glowrider]

I don't think one is better than the other. They are both necesssary.

[mrmattyk]

I like high HP with respect to torque.

[Ben]

I like torque...not having to rev the shit out of your car to get it moving and not having to drive it everywhere you go as if you just stole it is important to me.

[THREE40SEVEN]

Completely off topic but, ben- is your avatar from the chili cook off?:D

[Ben]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN
Completely off topic but, ben- is your avatar from the chili cook off?:D


hahahah

yeah man, that episode OWNZ!

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by Ben



hahahah

yeah man, that episode OWNZ!
Definately in the top 5:nut: Some seriously screwed up shit...

[E36M3]

Originally posted by Jeff TYPE R
I think we need one of these threads again. :) So, which is better and why?

Isn't this like asking which is better, candlepower or lumens?

Horsepower is not actually measured, it is derived from torque. Basically,

hp = torque (lb-ft) * rpm / 5252

So I suppose both are good. I suppose the best of both worlds is a large amount of torque at low RPM, and an engine with gearing and lubrication sufficient enough to allow for extended high RPM operation in order to maximize high speed acceleration and top speed.

[THREE40SEVEN]

If most of you guys like torque, why do most of you drive high revving 4 cyls? Cost?

[D-MON]

who's gonna win?
A car with lotsa torque or the same car with lotsa hp?
Sure the car with more torque will take it off the line and get better 60 foot times, maybe even better 1/8 mile times but the higher hp car will take it in the end. Especially in track racing where the point is to keep your revs high. I love high reving cars but you need the hp there at the higher revs to keep the power band going and to keep your head glued to the head rest! No feeling like when a car just keeps on accellerating harder and harder.:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :drool:

[hjr]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN
Cut and pasted from my last post:
"Torque gets you out of the hole, and HP gets you down the track, or wins the race. Do you think a diesel truck with the same torque as my car at the same weight and gearing would beat me if it had 150 less hp? Nope. Torque is work, and hp is the relation to it over time.
Imagine a long breaker bar on your crankshaft bolt, and you turning the engine over with it by hand. You ability to turn the engine over is torque, and how fast you can turn it over, over ____ amount of time is HP.
Dont get me wrong, a torquey car is WAY more fun to drive.."

I didnt feel like typing the same thing in different words..


Didnt you Read this. HP is derived from torque. Not saying that torque is more important, but niether is HP. They are equal. You need both. - :banghead: folks have to read the thread before posting, geeezzzzzzzz.

[Mikko]

Rage is 100% correct. A good explanation.

I think peaky engines are rather difficult to drive when it gets very twisty and it's just annoying. A strong low powerband is quite nice when racing.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mikko
I think peaky engines are rather difficult to drive when it gets very twisty and it's just annoying. A strong low powerband is quite nice when racing.

"low powerband" isn't the greatest definition... it should be WIDE power band. I mean, a F1 motor idles at 3000rpm, makes at least 200tq from 6000rpm - 18000rpm. Might not sound like much, but with the proper gear ratios, that's the same as a motor that makes at least 600tq from 2000rpm to 6000rpm. (Both motors would be in the 700hp range).

TQ@wheels gets multipled by gear ratios, HP does not... so the guy with the most HP over the widest rpm range wins :D.

[Ben]

Why dont we discuss this in realevence to cars that we see every day on our streets?

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by Ben
Why dont we discuss this in realevence to cars that we see every day on our streets?
Drive an eagle talon ~93(my father has one), then a late 90's type R. Both 195 hp, but the turboed DSM is way more fun to drive- Ive driven both. Try to find a dyno for both cars stock, and compare both hp and torque curves.

Any car will FEEL like its accelerating in direct relation to the torque curve on the dyno graph. Try it...

[THREE40SEVEN]

And why is NAWSS an option? ;)
Nitrous will jump your torque by a much larger amount than the rated HP.

[frostyda9]

As the old saying goes, "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races". The torque CURVE is what matters (ie coming on at low rpm and staying strong all the way up to red, at least as a theoretical ideal). IMO.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Ben
Why dont we discuss this in realevence to cars that we see every day on our streets?

Because I'm trying to use the most "extreme" case to show that low TQ doesn't mean shitty performance.

[Glowrider]

It's also where the torque is made. My M3 isn't lacking in the torque department, but it makes all the torque up high in the powerband. Pretty narrow, if you want to play, it's best to be way up there in the revs.

As compared to the M5, which is much more pleasureable to drive because of the big V8, and it's more linear torque curve, which is wider, and the torque is more readily available down low.

[syeve]

may be I just dont understand the difference between HP and torque because my argument would be the exact opposite.

Torque get you car out of the hole and is used for most dailly driving...thats why most cars have peak torque at about 3000-4500 rpm.
If I was to open it up and race someone down the quarter staying at high rpm the whole time (my gears are very closed so I stay between 6100 and 8000 except during launch) would it not be the amount of HP I have that determines how fast I'm gonna go.

My car has NO torque and you can feel it, theres no doubt, but when I race and the rpm stays high my car is very quick and the torque issue with my car seems to be nil...so as long as I give er' and stay high up on the revs (which I believe most people do during a race) would it not be the amount of HP that determines?

[Mikko]

Originally posted by rage2
[B]

"low powerband" isn't the greatest definition... it should be WIDE power band.

You are right, I misphrased it. An engine with a wide powerband that is also quite strong already from low revs is what I'd prefer. If I get that I'm not as concerned with top end power.

[syeve]

Originally posted by Mikko
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rage2
[B]

"low powerband" isn't the greatest definition... it should be WIDE power band. QUOTE]

You are right, I misphrased it. An engine with a wide powerband that is also quite strong already from low revs is what I'd prefer. If I get that I'm not as concerned with top end power.

I think honda has it figured out for a "daily driver", aka the cars we ALL drive...my car literally sips gas all throught he low rpm, if you drive my car slow I can go forever on a tank of gas, BUT, when you NEED it you can put the petal down and its not like the earth will rotate the other way (aka superman) but my car goes pretty good, but again, sips fuel below vtec ~5800, and if you need to go it will.
It just makes me think of my car rsx-s vs my buddies WRX. He goes through gas like crazy and thats just from daily driving, like traffic and shitty freeway driving...no matter how he drives, because of his set up (wide power band, lots of torque) he goes through gas. My car on the other hand is like above, sips gas during normal driving, then rocks on gas after vtec...just a thought.

[Mikko]

Agreed. I was speaking of racing though, not a normal daily car. For a normal daily driver I'd like either a really fun old Peugeot 205 or a Civic Hybrid - or nothing at all.

[Nix87]

Torque is what its all bout

Nick

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by Mikko
A strong low powerband is quite nice when racing.

that couldnt be further from the truth. in order to take advantage of having a low powerband, the tranny needs to be geared very tall. when u have tall gearing, it makes driving fast very hard.

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN
And why is NAWSS an option? ;)
Nitrous will jump your torque by a much larger amount than the rated HP.

its there for the ricers who arent sure what hp and tq are :)

Originally posted by syeve
My car has NO torque and you can feel it, theres no doubt, but when I race and the rpm stays high my car is very quick and the torque issue with my car seems to be nil...so as long as I give er' and stay high up on the revs (which I believe most people do during a race) would it not be the amount of HP that determines?

sigh...again i post this stupid dyno sheet...notice that u pretty much have all your torque by 3000rpm? horsepower is what makes the car go fast, which is why u are faster at high rpms even tho u have torque down low.

anyway, i think that the ppl who prefer having torque down low are just lazy bastards who care more about streetability than actually being fast. so far, i think rage2 has explained the technicalities relating horsepower and torque the best. ie...horsepower is what makes the car go fast, but u need torque at the right place and proper revs to make the best hp.

[three.eighteen.]

Originally posted by Mikko
Rage is 100% correct. A good explanation.

I think peaky engines are rather difficult to drive when it gets very twisty and it's just annoying. A strong low powerband is quite nice when racing.

bah...the peaky engine is what makes the twisties fun, cus you now you have to keep it on edge to have power, im all over the speed-shifting in the twisties

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by three.eighteen.


bah...the peaky engine is what makes the twisties fun, cus you now you have to keep it on edge to have power, im all over the speed-shifting in the twisties totally!

u know heading southbound over the high level....a few days ago i realized just how much fun that is! fly down the bridge at 130, get into 3rd,heel toe hard into 2nd...then zip thru at high rpms!

[Fuji]

Originally posted by syeve


It just makes me think of my car rsx-s vs my buddies WRX. He goes through gas like crazy and thats just from daily driving, like traffic and shitty freeway driving...no matter how he drives, because of his set up (wide power band, lots of torque) he goes through gas. My car on the other hand is like above, sips gas during normal driving, then rocks on gas after vtec...just a thought.

WRX has Turbo and AWD, making it way more fuel inefficient than your Acura. AWD bogs the whole system down (lots of power loss in the driveline) and kills the gas mileage, thats the main reason he goes through more gas than you.