turbo parts .. what would you pay?

[350hp_or_Bust]

well I have a chance to get some turbo parts from a guy in the states ... what would you pay for the following:

Racegate wastegate
Vortech Super FMU
Autometer boost gauge (2" I think ... the cheapest one basically)
set of 8 FMS 24# injectors
Bosch BOV (although, maybe not .. in light of advice from a different post)

what do you think? I know you'll know a good price for all this legendboy :D

Thanks!

edit: oh yeah everything is brand new, he put about 30 miles on his setup before he detonated hardcore and burnt up some piston rings

[350hp_or_Bust]

anyone???
:dunno:

[legendboy]

I'd pay 300-350 for a racegate, I'd rather have one of thoes over a 35mm tial. Actually, I really like the racegate.

[350hp_or_Bust]

hmmm ... thanks

I was thinking around $450-500US for all of it .. that's like $770CDN.

SFMU $250 or so,
Injectors... $150-200 :dunno: ?? THREEFORTYSEVEN: do you know what they'd be worth? ... they're Ford 24# ones.
Boost gauge, maybe $40?

That adds up to about 740CDN

any other thoughts?

[legendboy]

if all this is used

Racegate wastegate $300
Vortech Super FMU $100-200
Autometer boost gauge $20-40
set of 8 FMS 24# injectors ?
Bosch BOV $0

[THREE40SEVEN]

Well, I would only buy the wastegate, gauge and the bypass.
An FMU on a turboed car is a nono.. While full boost at 2500-3500 rpm is great, its not when it comes to fuel requirements and FMU's.
With fuel pressure relative to boost pressure, you can be extremely rich in the midrange, killing both power and economy. Another problem is fuel pressure. Those injectors are designed to operate between 38-45 psi. While supplying more pressure may make the injectors act larger, atomization and the efficiency of the engine are comprimized. Less power and economy... Lastly, many OEM and aftermarket fuel pumps shit the bed after 60 psi. More pressure = less volume.
All of these symptoms of a poorly designed power adder i obseved when dynoing a kennebell(twin screw- instant boost like a turbo) blown 5.0. She had high 9:1 a/f ratios in the low and midrange, with 14:1 af's in the peak. Not good.
Buy a large enough injector and MAF to support the power you are expecting at close to stock fuel pressures. BTW, the typical stock fuel pressure regulator will raise fuel pressure at a 1:1 ratio to boost.


To answer the question, the injectors are worth $400 new, and ive sold them used for typically $250-300.
The racegate is ~$700 new, so maybe $400?.....
FMU's i never sell because of the above...The gauge ~70-80 new, so around 40-50... and ive never sold a bosch bypass, but from memory they go for abour $100 over the counter.
Hey legendboy- gimme a call if you ever sell any performance parts used- you're pretty cheap!! Remember, this guy has around 30miles on this stuff.
.02

[Neons4life]

let's see I bought my Vortech SFMU for 200(Can), and my inectors are 240(can) for a set of 4, and as for a BOV just look on Ebay, DIRT cheap

James

[350hp_or_Bust]

thanks guys.

as for the FMU issues 347, I know ... but my problem is that
a) I don't have a MAF (speed-density system ... fuking dodge, their ECU's are garbage)
b) stock regulator is in the tank, and the fuel system is non-return... keeps pressure at 49-50psi absolute all the time. (edit: oh yeah, this is why I'm putting an inline fuel pump in ... I may ditch the stock regulator and in-tank pump in favour of a custom return style system in the future, but who knows)

My plan was to dial down idle pressure to about 43psi, then set the max pressure at 60psi or so .. that's the nice thing about the SFMU is you can limit the max pressure it rises to ... so I can ramp it at 8:1 or 6:1 or whatever, but cap it at whatever pressure is best for me. Its all a huge compromise for my truck, but what can I do... there's hardly any aftermarket support either. My only other option is a completely custom stand alone managment system (haltech or FAST or some other crap) .. but those are huge coin.

This setup offers me the best tunability I can muster ... I can't even get any spark control for my truck yet ... not even boost retard. There is a rudementary fuel controller (Roe racing) that I may use to fine tune ... but even that thing is still over $500 USD. Basically all I have to tune with is fuel pressure!

Also working in my favour (hopefully) is that the stock A/F curve continually slopes down from 2500RPM to redline ... it starts at 13-14:1 at WOT, then ramps all the way down to 8-9:1 or something rediculously useless at 6000RPM. Hopefully with the SFMU I can flatten the A/F out to a nice 11.5-12:1 (wishful thinking though:) )

[prophet_ca]

K i don't know what kind of car or trunk you have, but if its dodge im pretty sure its using a map sensor, so why don't you just get a zender diode, so you ecu doesn't see boost... You gonna have to bypass the stock regulator somehow. Drill n tap you fuel rail and then braze on a return line fitting. Run it the S-FMU and back to the tank. There are kits you can buy to do this. Im also guessing you have 19lbs if you upgrading to 24lb so the fuel pressure won't be that high... Also for the bov get a 1st gen dsm, holds up to 15psi and can be modded to 20psi and beyond... I just bought 4 24lb fordmotorsport injectors for 89US

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by prophet_ca
K i don't know what kind of car or trunk you have, but if its dodge im pretty sure its using a map sensor, so why don't you just get a zender diode, so you ecu doesn't see boost... You gonna have to bypass the stock regulator somehow. Drill n tap you fuel rail and then braze on a return line fitting. Run it the S-FMU and back to the tank. There are kits you can buy to do this. Im also guessing you have 19lbs if you upgrading to 24lb so the fuel pressure won't be that high... Also for the bov get a 1st gen dsm, holds up to 15psi and can be modded to 20psi and beyond... I just bought 4 24lb fordmotorsport injectors for 89US
Not to be rude, but what are you talking about? What are you tring to accomplsh with the ecu not seeing boost? WTF is a zender diode and what is its purpose? Upgrading a fuel injector doesent raise or lower pressure- the fuel pressure regulator does, or the ecu accomplishes this on a returnless system by varying pump voltage.
An FMU is FULLY mechanical, and will raise boost pressure in direct relation to boost pressure, regardless of what the ecu thinks. A 19 lb injector with a 12:1 FMU could see pressures well over 100psi at 9lbs.
Buy the proper sized injector, and quit hacking or patching your car.
A stock DSM bypass valve will leak like a bitch at 20psi.

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by 350hp_or_Bust
thanks guys.

as for the FMU issues 347, I know ... but my problem is that
a) I don't have a MAF (speed-density system ... fuking dodge, their ECU's are garbage)
b) stock regulator is in the tank, and the fuel system is non-return... keeps pressure at 49-50psi absolute all the time. (edit: oh yeah, this is why I'm putting an inline fuel pump in ... I may ditch the stock regulator and in-tank pump in favour of a custom return style system in the future, but who knows)

My plan was to dial down idle pressure to about 43psi, then set the max pressure at 60psi or so .. that's the nice thing about the SFMU is you can limit the max pressure it rises to ... so I can ramp it at 8:1 or 6:1 or whatever, but cap it at whatever pressure is best for me. Its all a huge compromise for my truck, but what can I do... there's hardly any aftermarket support either. My only other option is a completely custom stand alone managment system (haltech or FAST or some other crap) .. but those are huge coin.

This setup offers me the best tunability I can muster ... I can't even get any spark control for my truck yet ... not even boost retard. There is a rudementary fuel controller (Roe racing) that I may use to fine tune ... but even that thing is still over $500 USD. Basically all I have to tune with is fuel pressure!

Also working in my favour (hopefully) is that the stock A/F curve continually slopes down from 2500RPM to redline ... it starts at 13-14:1 at WOT, then ramps all the way down to 8-9:1 or something rediculously useless at 6000RPM. Hopefully with the SFMU I can flatten the A/F out to a nice 11.5-12:1 (wishful thinking though:) )
I didn't even see this reply till now...
Shitty... Could you not incorporate another brand ecu? (ford, chev). Its been done.
8-9:1 damn!!!!:nut: Theres a ton left in your combo for torque and HP across the entire rpm range.
Aeromotive does offer an electronic fmu for returnless fuel systems, but i know it was designed for the 4.6 ford.
Another source you may try is the efpc from http://mafterburner.com/products.htm.
What you need is a device to change fuel pump voltage according to boost pressure. Good luck- hell if i know how to do that.
This is a homemade turbo system?
What do the supercharger companies use for your application in regards to fuel and timing? They make a kit for your truck dont they? Custom chip?......
Shit. This is what you get for trying something different eh?;)

[prophet_ca]

you wouldn't want the ecu to see boost, so it doesn't cut fuel on a non turbo vechicle.. thats what zender diode does when the map sensor voltage reaches a certain point (vacuum to boost) it wll resist any more voltage, thus making the ecu not see boost and not cut fuel.. I never said uping the injector size will up fuel pressure... I meant since he will be installing a rrfpr his fuel pressure won't be crazy if he goes from stock to 24lbs injectors.. if he uses a rrfpr to achieve the right fuel amount using stock injectors he might be in the 110psi range, and we all know injectors don't like that... if he goes with no rrfpr and larger injectors (say 42lbs) hes going to be running crazy rich at idle and non boost situations...

As for the dsm, a stock dsm will leak at 17psi, but a modified one won't...
http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo_bov_mod.html

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by prophet_ca
you wouldn't want the ecu to see boost, so it doesn't cut fuel on a non turbo vechicle..
Why would the ecu cut fuel on a speed density system? The fords dont.... I cant comment on the dodges...
No chips or any way to modify dodge ecus?

[prophet_ca]

cause its not a maf (mass air flow sensor) which is what i think fords use (mustangs from 1988, focus, escorts), its map (manifold absolute pressure sensor).. well for my dodges anyways, don't know for his dakota, but im pretty sure its map.. when that pressures got to boost ... boom the ecu cuts fuel... i don't know to many people cracking dodge ecu (besides kenne bell, afx, etc) cause there encypted code is really tricky...

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by prophet_ca
cause its not a maf (mass air flow sensor) its map (manifold absolute pressure sensor).. well for my dodges anyways, don't know for his dakota, but im pretty sure its map.. when that pressures got to boost ... boom the ecu cuts fuel... i don't know to many people cracking dodge ecu (besides kenne bell, afx, etc) cause there encypted code is really tricky...
I am very familiar with ford ecus, and they dont cut fuel on a speed density system(map).
Wouldn't a custom chip be the easiest fix?

[prophet_ca]

well it all depends what map sensor he has... I doubt ihis dodge has a 1,2,or 3 bar map sensor...if you can figure out the ecu codes could throw a chip, so the ecu knows what to do at boost... or you could prevent it from seeing boost (zender diode) or you could get a piggy back system with a 1,2, or 3 bar map sensor built in... but when the ecu sees that boost its not going to know what to do and it is going to go into safety mode and shut eventhing down..

are you fuel injected or carbureated (cant spell)

[THREE40SEVEN]

Whats a carb? ;)

[90_Shelby]

Yeah Matt the Dodges cut fuel if they see positive pressure, or on the Turbo Dodges after 1bar 14.7psi. You can use a diode or a ball and spring type bleed.

If you plumb in a return for the fuel system, and run bigger injectors, you will need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator (for static press.) and you can dial it down so idle won't be a problem. You can modify stock regulators to ba adjustable.

My setup on my Daytona for stock computer and 22psi boost.
255lph pump adjustable fpr (static) dialed down to 23psi? 55# injectors, Cartech FMU and a diode for over boost. I would see around 80psi fuel press. under boost.

It is possible to mod the computer to understand a 2 or 3 bar Map sensor but good luck finding someone willing to do it. I know a guy who has done this with Turbo Dodges, but he's an electrical engineer.

[90_Shelby]

P.S. I like your signature ROFL

[prophet_ca]

he could go 1:1 then rrfpr... but the s-fmu can be used as a 1:1

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by 90_Shelby
Yeah Matt the Dodges cut fuel if they see positive pressure, or on the Turbo Dodges after 1bar 14.7psi. You can use a diode or a ball and spring type bleed.

If you plumb in a return for the fuel system, and run bigger injectors, you will need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator (for static press.) and you can dial it down so idle won't be a problem. You can modify stock regulators to ba adjustable.

My setup on my Daytona for stock computer and 22psi boost.
255lph pump adjustable fpr (static) dialed down to 23psi? 55# injectors, Cartech FMU and a diode for over boost. I would see around 80psi fuel press. under boost.

It is possible to mod the computer to understand a 2 or 3 bar Map sensor but good luck finding someone willing to do it. I know a guy who has done this with Turbo Dodges, but he's an electrical engineer.



Originally posted by 90_Shelby
P.S. I like your signature ROFL


Thanks-That makes more sense...
Like the sig eh? LOL, did you read the soarer post?

[350hp_or_Bust]

wholly replies batman ... weeeeeelllll *takes a deep breath preparing for a long winded post*

First, prophet isn't far off base in what he's saying. What the Dodge ECU's (PCMs they call them) do is upon start up, it reads the MAP voltage (doesn't matter if its 1 BAR, 2 Bar or 600Bar .. it reads the key on - engine off voltage and equates that to atmospheric pressure). ... if the voltage rises above that (i.e. pressures above atmospheric .. not necessarily above 1 BAR) it will cut fuel... why it does this has been thought to be of two different reasons: first idea is the PCM just panics cause it doesn't know what to do (so it cuts fuel all the time under boost) ... second school of thought is that the PCM sees no vacuum, but only part throttle so it assumes you're about to shift gears, and cuts fuel (this is the more common thinking with the Dakotas).
Basically the diode limits the maximum MAP voltage but "bleeding off" voltages above that. That way the PCM never sees voltages for above atmospheric. You have to choose the proper diode though.



Originally posted by prophet_ca
K i don't know what kind of car or trunk you have ... You gonna have to bypass the stock regulator somehow. Drill n tap you fuel rail and then braze on a return line fitting. Run it the S-FMU and back to the tank. There are kits you can buy to do this. Im also guessing you have 19lbs if you upgrading to 24lb so the fuel pressure won't be that high... Also for the bov get a 1st gen dsm, holds up to 15psi and can be modded to 20psi and beyond... I just bought 4 24lb fordmotorsport injectors for 89US

It's a 2000 Dakota, 4.7L V8.
Instead of bypassing the stock regulator, I'm putting and inline pump in after the regulator, and then an FMU after that.
No kits out there for my truck.
Yep, stock 19# injectors I'll be upgrading to 24#.
BOV I'll get whenever .. .I think rage might hook me up with his stock porsche bpv.


Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN

...the ecu accomplishes this on a returnless system by varying pump voltage...
Buy the proper sized injector, and quit hacking or patching your car.


not on the Dodges, there's a mechanical regulator in the tank, just after the fuel pump.
That's all us Dodge guys can do is hack and patch! :)


Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN

...Could you not incorporate another brand ecu? (ford, chev). Its been done. ...
8-9:1 damn!!!!:nut: Theres a ton left in your combo for torque and HP across the entire rpm range.
Aeromotive does offer an electronic fmu for returnless fuel systems, but i know it was designed for the 4.6 ford.
Another source you may try is the efpc from http://mafterburner.com/products.htm.
What you need is a device to change fuel pump voltage according to boost pressure. Good luck- hell if i know how to do that.
This is a homemade turbo system?
What do the supercharger companies use for your application in regards to fuel and timing? They make a kit for your truck dont they? Custom chip?......
Shit. This is what you get for trying something different eh?;)
I doubt I could use a different brand ECU, haven't looked into it... seems like too much hassle.
I know there's more power to be had ... these things are a bitch to tune though.
No MAF sensor at all on my engine ... MAFterburner wouldn't work.
changing the voltage on the fuel pump to regulate pressure accomplishes the same thing as an FMU ... just an FMU is easier.
"Good Luck" ... thanks! I'll need it .. yes definitely a home made system.
S/C companies (well, there's only two for my engine .. Kenne Bell, and just recently Paxton) use their own proprietary piggy back computer (and their not willing to sell it seperately, I already asked! :)) The computer controls two auxillary injectors (same for both companies), and I think it retards timing also, if necessary.
Custom Chip? Nope... there's three companies that can flash my PCM .. two of them reportedly don't do shit (and don't have blown applications anyhow), and one of them does a hack job and charges an arm and a leg.


Originally posted by prophet_ca
... if he goes with no rrfpr and larger injectors (say 42lbs) hes going to be running crazy rich at idle and non boost situations...

Yup .. that's why I'm going 24# at the most .. so idle and WOT, not boost won't be too fuk'd


Originally posted by prophet_ca
well it all depends what map sensor he has... I doubt ihis dodge has a 1,2,or 3 bar map sensor...if you can figure out the ecu codes could throw a chip, so the ecu knows what to do at boost... or you could prevent it from seeing boost (zender diode) or you could get a piggy back system with a 1,2, or 3 bar map sensor built in... but when the ecu sees that boost its not going to know what to do and it is going to go into safety mode and shut eventhing down..

are you fuel injected or carbureated (cant spell)

yeah, 1 BAR MAP ... a piggy back would still require the MAP sensor diode hack.
I'm fuel injected.


Originally posted by 90_Shelby
If you plumb in a return for the fuel system, and run bigger injectors, you will need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator (for static press.) and you can dial it down so idle won't be a problem. You can modify stock regulators to ba adjustable.

It is possible to mod the computer to understand a 2 or 3 bar Map sensor but good luck finding someone willing to do it. I know a guy who has done this with Turbo Dodges, but he's an electrical engineer.

I thought about doing a custom return fuel system (and it has been done), but its too much hassle for now ... maybe in the future.
Like I said, there is one company that can put a 2 or 3 BAR table in the PCM, but its a real hack job and the guy doesn't really know what he's doing. Its all guess and test for him .. and shipping the PCM back and forth to California multiple times would add up too much in shipping and time (not to mention the $650 USD he charges).
-----------------------

On a seperate note, the only other option is a complete stand alone job like a Hal-Tech, or a piggy back PlugNPlay like FAST (www.fuelairspark.com) .. but neither have applications for my engine yet ... they have them for the older Dodge V8s, but not mine, so I'd be doing a LOT of R&D and hacking and shit that I don't want to do yet... if FAST comes out with a PnP for my engine in the future, I may do that ... but its still over $2500USD! damn shits expensive .. but if you wanna play, you gotta pay (or so they say)

phew, that was long. Thanks for the input guys ... any more discussion on the topic is very much appreciated!!!

[90_Shelby]

Go with SDS it's cheap and it gets the job done. IMO

[350hp_or_Bust]

SDS?