Check it out.... Nato may be in trouble,

[Toma]

.....and most the world opposes war with Iraq.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2747175.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2747443.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2744491.stm

At least europeans are not as brain washed as the americans...
protests all over the place...

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38803000/jpg/_38803549_sign100ap.jpg

Toma

[350hp_or_Bust]

Originally posted by Toma
.....and most the world opposes war with Iraq.

At least europeans are not as brain washed as the americans...
protests all over the place...


Toma

:werd:

I think Bush is a maniac myself ... he has most americans under his 'patriotic' spell ... and a good deal of Canadians too. For once Chretien's lack of decision making skills is coming in handy as he didn't immediatly jump on the 'Bush Bomb the World' campange. Hopefully he'll keep putting off the decision until next election time (one year and counting) and we'll get a half decent leader of this country (fat chance though).

Damn politics... all it does is piss me off! :banghead:

[Toma]

LOL, yeah, Bush is something alright.

The Germans call him "Fhurer Bush" ;)

[THREE40SEVEN]

Bush is an idiot. Nuff said

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN
Bush is an idiot. Nuff said
And cretien(sp, but who cares) is a complete jackass.

[sexualbanana]

it's funny because bush is so set on a war with iraq, that the un could find every single biological, nuclear, etc weapon that iraq has, and bush would still be very unhappy with iraq

[Weapon_R]

I don't think anyone agrees with Bush and his tactics, but that is besides the point. War is inevitable. This president has plunged the US into debt beyond comprehension, an economy that is continuously plunging into recession, and an entire international community labelling him as a bad president. With the immense cost associated with war, labour and capital flourish. To give you an idea of how much cost is involved, the United States threw more bombs on Iraq in the 6 weeks it invaded, than was thrown on Germany during the entire 6 year World War II. This will rejuvinate the economy and make Bush look like he's done a job well done.

[sexualbanana]

u know, everyone predicted a poor economy but if u look at the numbers, consuer spending is still as high as it was before.

[ecstasyracer]

Its funny how Bush keeps ignoring north korea when they may actually have nuc bombs soon. And the other day they said that they might make the first strike or something.

[Speed_RaSiR]

I love how Canada is basically invisible when it comes to international politics... No one cares what we think.

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by Speed_RaSiR
I love how Canada is basically invisible when it comes to international politics... No one cares what we think.
LOL, wheres you touque eh?

[350hp_or_Bust]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN

LOL, wheres you touque eh?
's on me 'ed b'y

[finboy]

bush will be the end of the world, you just watch.

he'll probably be president for another term too.

on a related note, anyone see al gore on saturday night live ;)

[Glowrider]

Anti-American rants are so trendy these days...

[T5_X]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN

LOL, wheres you touque eh?

Shut up, you wanker arse chesse shit head! :rofl: we damn yanks with our .ca domain name and metric system :rofl:


Anti-American rants are so trendy these days...

Anti-Bush.... that administration has turned the country into a rogue nation.

[Toma]

Dunno about the US, but it is OBVIOUS consumer spending is down in Canada big time....

Remember a few years ago when Home Depot rolled into town? Place was packed, dozens of annoying employees, open 24 hours, then till midnight, and now? etc, now go there, and it is a ghost town in the evenings.

Same as Wal Mart, WAAAAY down, only half the tills open etc. Still busy at peak times, but much slower in general.

Starbucks/Chapters. Ditto, major slow down, shortened business hours, fewer staff.

The signs are not good if you ask me.

The only thing on the up and up is the downtown core. pubs/restaurants are packed by yuppie downtown dwellers....

The US has been a "rogue" state for decades. Just more people are starting to notice. I think Noam Chomsky wrote "Rogue States" in 1980 something (if you dunno who he is, you deserve a slap ;) ).

Korea HAS at least 1 to 2 confirmed nukes, the capacity to build a half dozen more (that we know of) a standing army of over a million with many reserves, and an airforce filled with outdated, though still capable Russian Migs.

They clearly said that if the US keeps adding military personel to the region, the Koreans would take that as an aggressive act and strike first.

Toma

[Toma]

double post

[Glowrider]

Being the most powerful country in the world is like being the fastest car at the track/street races...everyone talks shit about you.

[Toma]

Originally posted by Glowrider
Being the most powerful country in the world is like being the fastest car at the track/street races...everyone talks shit about you.

LOL, the guys that get shit talked are the guys with fast cars who are assholes. No one minds the nice helpfull guy with the fast car.... everyone seems to like him.

It is how the US gov't USES its "power" that makes them assholes.

Most powerfull though.....hmmm, very broad. Certainly not in conventional military ways, not in tactical nukes..... Maybe economically, but that is changing ;)

[kevie88]

Originally posted by Glowrider
Being the most powerful country in the world is like being the fastest car at the track/street races...everyone talks shit about you.

If the guy with the fastest car/best setup went around, said 'Hi' to his fellow racers, and lent a hand in the pits with some tools instead of going around telling everyone he was going to come and destroy your car because it has the potential to beat his, the rest of the competitors would like him much more.

[Glowrider]

It is how the US gov't USES its "power" that makes them assholes.


Yeah, we never help anyone...

[kevie88]

Originally posted by Glowrider



Yeah, we never help anyone...

I fail to see how this current administration has done any good for the world. GWB pisses all over the brilliant achievements of past Americans.

[Glowrider]

15 billion dollars to South Africa to help stop the spread of HIV isn't so bad...I think removing Hussein would be pretty nice to (unless your French or German, and are worried about your billion dollar oil deals). Or how about liberating Afghanistan? That was pretty good, too.

Ofcourse, none of you live in NY, and didn't have the opporotunity to see first hand what terrorism is capable of. It's not a pretty thing...so I don't expect any of you to understand Americans' feelings towards the radicals in the mid-east.

I see everyone bashing America, but no one bashes UBL and his Al Qaeda organization for slaughtering 3,000+ innocent people. Or Hussein for killing his own people, not feeding them, trying to steal from Kuwait, or video taping the rape of family members of those who stand in his way. No one says anything about the Palestinian suicide bombers killing innocent Israeli teenagers at nightclubs and other soft targets.

Like I said...Anti-American rants are trendy these days.

[mrmattyk]

ALL HEIL BUSHLER!!! THE LEADER OF THE 4TH REICH!

Seriously he employs the same tactics as Hitler. I watched a video of him talking, and then one of Hitler. It was very creepy how similar they move while talking.

[Glowrider]

Yeah...you should come visit one of our death camps or mass grave sites. While your at it, check out our new gas chambers.
(sarcasm)

[mrmattyk]

Originally posted by Glowrider
Yeah...you should come visit one of our death camps or mass grave sites. While your at it, check out our new gas chambers.
(sarcasm)

Yeah well he hasn't gone that far. I mean he uses the same tactics as Hitler while talking to his people and brainwashing them. Sorry for the confusion

[Glowrider]

Yeah, we're all brainwashed.

[kaput]

.

[Glowrider]

You don't start one fight, put that one on pause, and then go start another one. One thing at a time.

Iraq has harbored terrorists knowingly, and Bush made it clear soon after 9/11/01, that any country harboring terrorists would be at risk. Not only that, but even Hans Blix, who isn't an American, can't stop talking enough about how Iraq isn't complying with the ongoing inspections, and how they have completely failed to produce proof that they destroyed weapons, which they claimed to have done. They've failed to account for tons of biological and chemical weapons.

They've violated the treaty set forth after the war in 1991, which is grounds for military action.

Hussein needs to take some tips from Castro. He doesn't open his mouth at all...and we leave him alone, perfectly happy maintaining communist rule over Cuba.

It's like my little brother running in my room and calling me a bitch. Ofcourse I'm going to chase him down and kick his ass, he knows that, and he still does it.

Hussein is thumbing his nose at the UN, and the US...not to mention his own people. He has violated the Geneva Convention numerous times.

Take the empty rockets used to deploy chemical weapons. Not a big deal right? Combine that with the aluminized powder seized coming from Iraqi shipping companies in India...whats that used for...rocket fuel? Oh...hey, remember the 3 huge titanium pumps seized coming from India...guess what those are used for...

Add all that up and it equals weapons of mass destruction.

N. Korea will be dealt with, after we finish what we started with Iraq.

[T5_X]

Originally posted by Glowrider
You don't start one fight, put that one on pause, and then go start another one. One thing at a time.


So you admit that your rogue government goes out and starts fights?




I see everyone bashing America, but no one bashes UBL and his Al Qaeda organization for slaughtering 3,000+ innocent people.

and how bout the 3000+ innocent civilians slaughtered in afghanistan by the US. Oh wait, I forgot, American lives are worth more.


And before you go and start bitching about terrorism, your government certainly has used terrorists against other nations. N. Korea has 1 or 2 nuclear missiles? How bout the US's ~15,000 ICBMs? How bout them withdrawing from the anti ICBM treaty? How bout them bent on oil conquest under the guise of "protecting themselves"

[Glowrider]

and how bout the 3000+ innocent civilians slaughtered in afghanistan by the US.

What the hell are you talking about? Who told you that?


How bout the US's ~15,000 ICBMs? How bout them withdrawing from the anti ICBM treaty? How bout them bent on oil conquest under the guise of "protecting themselves"


The US isn't in violation of any UN resolutions. We don't kick UN inspectors out of our country. The US doesn't use it's nuclear weapons as leverage within the world.

The US currently has an embargo on Iraqi oil, and does not buy Iraqi oil. Not only that, the US suggested to the UN that they enforce the way Hussein spends the money made from oil sales to other nations, to make sure his people get fed.

Good job.

[kevie88]

How about the multiple violations of the Geneva Convention by Israel? When is Israel going to "be dealt with"?


Originally posted by Glowrider


Hussein needs to take some tips from Castro. He doesn't open his mouth at all...and we leave him alone, perfectly happy maintaining communist rule over Cuba.


I guess a complete economic blockade is "being left alone..."

[350hp_or_Bust]

Originally posted by Glowrider


What the hell are you talking about? Who told you that?
ha ha ... I guess CNN missed that story. Didn't you ever read about the bombs that 'missed their targets' ... where do you think they went? They bombed entire villages over there that they thought were military strong holds! (not to mention they bombed friendly forces)


Originally posted by kevie88
How about the multiple violations of the Geneva Convention by Israel? When is Israel going to "get theirs"?

:werd:

[Glowrider]

I guess CNN missed that story. Didn't you ever read about the bombs that 'missed their targets' ... where do you think they went? They bombed entire villages over there that they thought were military strong holds!

Yes, mistakes are made...but the casualities stemming from those mistakes were no where near 3,000.

I don't watch CNN, btw.

[Glowrider]

I guess a complete economic blockade is "being left alone...

When compared with whats happening, and what is going to happen in Iraq...yeah...that's "being left alone".

[hjr]

First - I dont think that you understand. Its not personal. We just dont like Bush. Take an objective view and you'll see that there is very little anti-american sentiment, rather anti-bush. Now if you want to tie yourself to him and all the bad and good, so be it, but thats your choice and you tie yourself to the criticism too.


Second - Fuck israel. fuck palistine. they are both equally wrong and there is no way around that. Im sick of all this pro-israel crap going around. they are no better than the PLO, in most cases worse. There is like a 10-1 (very very conservative estimate) ratio of palistinian to israeli dead so dont give me crap about innocent israeli teenagers. What about the innocent palastinian teenagers.

Third - I agree that saddam really should go, and going in there with tanks and suck is probably the only way to do it, but the thing is, I dont trust the american administration in those oil fields. Its like a kid in a FREE candy store. Also, the US admin. has been screwing the iraqi people for 12 years now through the use of the illogical sanctions which only hurt the poor (the majority of the country). With this in mind, why would the world believe that when the army does go in, the civilians have any garranty of safty?

Thats my anti-bush rant (not anti-american)

[Hakkola]

No, don't fuck isreal, it's their land and palistinians are trying to take it saying it's rightfully theirs, when it isn't.

I'm going to agree though, there is somewhat of a double standard, but think about it, jewish people are pretty powerful across the globe especially in the U.S, of course they're gonna get treated better, they basically own most of the television networks in the U.S. If I was in their position I'd do what I could for my country as well.

Nobody bashes Al Queda? Where on earth did you get that??? People bash them every damn day, hell, think about all the east indian and pakistani jokes and shit you hear everday as well, the people in or from that area get no respect, it's awful. U.S doesn't get bashed that much compared to lots of other nations. Not to say that there shouldn't be any al queda bashing, because they're fucked up, if they're gonna attack, attack military bases or power or something, leave the innocent civilians alone.

North Korea is a huge deal, but Saddam has proven that he'd actually use his biological weapons and such. I was just reading something today on how North Korea in a couple years could send nukes to Central U.S, right now they could hit the americans stationed in south korea, which i think is like 37 000. North Korea has 1 million troops with 4 million in reserves, so it's a bigger risk to go into north korea, and I doubt anybody will if it doesn't happen soon.

Iraq has a fucked up leader who should be dealt with regardless of the current threat based on what he's already done, he should have been out of power 10 years ago.

In another point I think it's completely unfair to talk about hating the Canadian P.M or American President to the extent that they are, it's not like it's an easy job, there's lots of people you have to keep happy.

[Glowrider]

Nobody bashes Al Queda? Where on earth did you get that??? People bash them every damn day

I was speaking in terms of this thread, sorry for not making that clear.

[three.eighteen.]

Originally posted by Glowrider



Yeah, we never help anyone...

yup...you gave osama bin laden and his cronies training AND weapons...hows that for helping :thumbsup:

[Glowrider]

Hindsight is 20/20...there was no way to know, that when we were helping them fight the Russians, that so many years later they would turn on us.

IF that is UBL on the tape that has just been released, he is doing the same thing to Saudi Arabia. Calling them infadels, and urging Muslims to "liberate Arabia". Saudi Arabia helped UBL and Al-Qaeda a great deal, only to be turned on. Like the US.

[three.eighteen.]

anyway the general opinion on this board is gonna be anti-bush, but definetly not anti-american, sure we joke but its cus we're canadians, americans make fun of us plenty, glowrider, you seem to be a pretty cool guy, the leader of your nation...eugh :confused:...

[WildViper]

Wow..this is exciting thread..I have to jump in.

Btw, I live in US..have lived in Africa and Europe.

I have to agree with a majority of the sentiments here..that Bush is doing our country wrong. Not just cause of the war though.

We all know why he wants that war:
1. Revenge for trying to assasinate his dad
2. Russia and Europeans seem to have good contracts lined up for oil in Iraq and US is left out.

US is not wrong in trying to pursue its own agenda..but where it is wrong is the "hypocritical" stance it takes. Tell the world the way it is..or just don't say anything. Silence is golden.

We need to learn from our European counterparts on that aspect. They all are not made of Gold...but they just don't go around trumpteting what they are doing and how bad it is.

America is doing a lot of positive things for this world, but to say it is doing it out of humanity is simply wrong. And in fact no country would ever do anything out of humanity. Sad, but it is true and most of you know it, even though you may try to ignore the obvious.

Here is an example: War in Afghanistan was to liberate its people from oppressive rulers??? Think about this and do your own research..this is true:
- Hamid Karzai - Used to be a Board Member of an Oil Company here in US..I think Unocal, I could be wrong.
- Envoy to Afghanistan from US - He was in the higher ranks of the major oil companies in US too.
- Btw, they silently signed a deal last Feb 2002 for the Trans Afghan Pipeline.
- Unocal officials told Congress that future prospects for that oil pipeline looked negative unless there was a "friendly" Afghanistan government..that was in 1999 or 2000, btw.

So you see, it is not as simple as we wanting Osama and wanting to "liberate" the Afghanis. That seems to have been a "by-product"

By me, all this is fine..as long as it is told how it actually is then being fed lies.

It is a matter of survival of the fittest after-all.

Oh, one more note about the $15billion for Aids in Africa....anyone notice that the next day Kofi Annan was praising Bush for that...now think about how the UN was against going to War before they all agreed unanimously to pass that resolution???? Any connections?? Perhaps..

Bush is what people are against..not of America really. We all know he is not paying attention to our own Economy..which is suffering and a second war will not help right now. There could be a third war too with N. Korea....how many wars are we going to fight? Whose next? Sudan? or Libya? or whereever there is Oil?

I certainly hope he doesn't come back as President again. He has done nothing but hurt our nation in every way you see.

I have friends who are laid off and can't find jobs...I have clients who have lost 60-80% of their money..and now they can't retire...and they are all complaining that this President is one of the worst. So when I speak, I am taking those people in mind and saying these things.

We have amazing people..but our government sometimes need to be shaken up a bit.

My 2 and half cents.

Btw, you can check my facts..they are accurate. :)

[dogstar]

osama must die, and saddam too...

north korea should simmer down before papa bush gets a bee in his bonnet about them too, because most people who really look at this iraq thing realize its GWB sr. whos telling lil georgie to invade iraq.

old george shoulda done it back in the storm, but who am i to say... ;)

nukes suck, no matter whos holding the key.

[Toma]

Isreal..... the US sends more aid every year to them then everywhere else combined.

That land is palestinian land. The UN ordered the ISrealis to return it way back in 1960 something, but Isreal decided to take more. I don't give a flying fuck about bibles, religion, holy lands etc.... population statistic from late 1800's show palestininans outnumbering Jews 10:1....then somehow by 1968, the Jews outnumbered the palestinians. I guess the palestininans were given milk and cookies and gave up their land willingly :rolleyes:

The US slaughters millions, not just thousands. Ask the 5000 children in Iraq that die of disease and malnutrition EVERY MONTH because of the US imposed (yes, US, UN was a hand puppet at the time) sanctions which inlcude medicine, anti-biotics, water treatment equipment/plants (which the US conveniently bombed the fuck out of) etc.

If you wanna talk "mere" thousands, hell they did that in Kosovo/Serbia, South America (directly and inderectly), Somalia etc.

Anyway....glad you guys are so open minded here. Obviously not a American member dominated board, but rather younger, more inquisitive/sceptical minds. :thumbsup:

Toma

[Toma]

Oh yeah.... Afghanistan was about gas lines that need to cross its territory from former communist states. The US gave the former Afghan government billions in bribes....they told the US to go fuck themselves anyway, so they became the next "bad guy".

Liberated Afghanistan .... hahahahahahhaha oh shit, thats funny :poosie:

In case you haven't noticed, there are not "good guys" in Afghanistan, just ones who like American, and ones who dont.

Question for ALL you intelligent folk.

WHY is Saddam a bad guy? What did he do now, that he did not do in the past when America was giving him money and food in the mid to late 80's. Or when they encouraged him to assassinate the former leader and take power himself.

No bullshit. Legit question. What brought about the change in policy? Facts please ;) ;)

[three.eighteen.]

Originally posted by Toma


If you wanna talk "mere" thousands, hell they did that in Kosovo/Serbia, South America (directly and inderectly), Somalia etc.




that really makes you think about how much we take for granted our 'right' to life

[yakish]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN

And cretien(sp, but who cares) is a complete jackass.
hahaha:drool:

[Glowrider]

Regardless of Annan praising Bush for the $15 bill to Africa, the UN security council is 11-5 in favor of giving more time to the inspectors. Why does he want to give $15 bill to Africa, I don't know...no one but he himself knows. I don't agree with it, I think that the $15 bill could be used to benefit people in this country, rather than people in South Africa, who really don't care about safe sex to begin with.

As far as the reasons for going to Iraq. I don't think it's solely out of jealousy of the European countries, and anger for the attempted assassination of his father. We have plenty of oil for years to come, without the help of Iraq. I can't help but believe that he is holding some angst towards Hussein for the attempt on Bush Sr...but if someone tried to kill my father, I wouldn't exactly sit down and take it lightly.

There are more reasons. The war on terror is one. It is a very real thing, not just propaganda. Not to mention that Hussein is an evil person, who does kill his own people. Some of these reasons by themselves would be reason enough for military action, IMO. When compounded, they just seem to re-enforce eachother.

Traditionally, war is good for the economy. Our economy isn't THAT bad either, sure it's not good. But we had a great period of prosperity, too much prosperity. It was bound to come down some time. Consumer spending and confidence is pretty level right now.

I do feel a certain amount of pity for Bush. He has alot on his plate without much experience with as much power as he's given as President. I'd like it to being a rookie cop, being assigned a beat in the toughest part of town on your first night. It sure as hell isn't going to be easy, and mistakes are going to be made.

[three.eighteen.]

Originally posted by Glowrider

I do feel a certain amount of pity for Bush. He has alot on his plate without much experience with as much power as he's given as President. I'd like it to being a rookie cop, being assigned a beat in the toughest part of town on your first night. It sure as hell isn't going to be easy, and mistakes are going to be made.

but he can just call his dad if he has a problem :rofl: and come on look at him we all know he's not the brightest bulb in the factory (just look at all the bush quote lists out there), i doubt he actually makes any of the big decisions on his own...

[Toma]

No, I do not recall Saddam killing his own people. He killed Kurds who have been fighting for their own independance, and who Turkey (a member of Nato and US ally) has killed more of, burned more villages, and created millions of kurdish refugess. But thats OK, cause Turkey is our friend :rolleyes:

Try again.

[Glowrider]

I do not recall Saddam killing his own people

There's a video of Hussein calling a meeting. In this meeting, in an auditorium filled with Iraqi officials, he reads a list of names. The people whose names are called, are escorted out of the room and executed. After about 10 or so people, the rest of the room starts chanting in favor of Hussein.

He's threatening that if there is a war, he will bring it into Baghdad. Why would he do that? Maybe to use civilians as shields, to increase civilian casualties...which leads to more anti-American propaganda.

Lets not forget the video taped rapings and killings of female family members of people who Saddam deems undesireable.

[Glowrider]

i doubt he actually makes any of the big decisions on his own...


Yeah...he has a cabinet, and the Senate to help with that.

[RSeXy]

Originally posted by Glowrider
Regardless of Annan praising Bush for the $15 bill to Africa, the UN security council is 11-5 in favor of giving more time to the inspectors. Why does he want to give $15 bill to Africa, I don't know...no one but he himself knows. I don't agree with it, I think that the $15 bill could be used to benefit people in this country, rather than people in South Africa, who really don't care about safe sex to begin with.


I'm sure they care about safe sex...they just lack education. I used to wonder why impoverished people would bring a child into the earth fully knowlegable that they would not have the resources to provide for the child..and yet they not only have one child...but several! I assume the thinking is that the more children, especially boys, the more help they would have to work the land and earn more money, not calculating the extra mouths they would have to feed. The greatest tool for these problems is education. But i agree that that $15 billion would have benefitted Americans.


Originally posted by Glowrider

There are more reasons. The war on terror is one. It is a very real thing, not just propaganda. Not to mention that Hussein is an evil person, who does kill his own people. Some of these reasons by themselves would be reason enough for military action, IMO. When compounded, they just seem to re-enforce eachother.

I do feel a certain amount of pity for Bush. He has alot on his plate without much experience with as much power as he's given as President. I'd like it to being a rookie cop, being assigned a beat in the toughest part of town on your first night. It sure as hell isn't going to be easy, and mistakes are going to be made.


:werd: & :werd:

Can you imagine the stress? I know i couldn't. After having Americans realize that they are not invincible from terrorist attacks...Bush has had a lot of pressure to convince Americans that they can feel safe and that his administration is doing everything they can to prevent anything like 9/11 from ever happening again.

[FN49]

Read this article. It was written by a former U.S. Army General. It makes you think..... READ ME! (http://www.rense.com/general33/pepr.htm)

[Glowrider]

What did he do now, that he did not do in the past when America was giving him money and food in the mid to late 80's. Or when they encouraged him to assassinate the former leader and take power himself

He drew attention to himself by aiding Al-Qaeda operatives, which the US obviously has a hard-on for. And rightly so...

[Hakkola]

Ohh, I forgot about the whole africa $18billion glowrider said earlier. Why does it all go to South Africa? The entire continent needs help, especially with aids. My brother and his family live in Mali and you should see how far the Al Queda propaganda makes it. In the middle of nowhere there is this black guy my brother met, he had a ghetto blaster on his head wearing an Osama bin Laden T-shirt with his face on it, with an American Flag and an Elephant sitting on it.

Ohh, and it's not that they don't care about aids in Africa, it's a lack of education about the problems. In 3rd world countries you NEED to have as many children as you can to survive, you get your children to work for you. The problem is that their poor, the only way to make them healthy is to help them economically.


Maybe I'll scan it.
I highly doubt that aid to Africa is being put to great use.

Sorry, that post was all over the place.

[RSeXy]

Originally posted by Glowrider

He's threatening that if there is a war, he will bring it into Baghdad. Why would he do that? Maybe to use civilians as shields, to increase civilian casualties...which leads to more anti-American propaganda.

Lets not forget the video taped rapings and killings of female family members of people who Saddam deems undesireable.

The amount of propoganda in Iraq is insane! Hussein is glorified everywhere! He is an icon there. People actually believe that they won the war??!! Iraq used to be a very prosperous country. His gov't regulates and monitors everything the people hear.

I believe that Saddam has done that to women. Women's status in the middle east turns my stomach! There is now a petition from Amnesty and various women's groups to save the life of a woman condemned to death by stoning!!!! And for what? Because she had a child out of wedlock, which brings disgrace to her husband and family...i thought we lived in the 21 century. :dunno:

[Glowrider]

I highly doubt that aid to Africa is being put to great use.

I agree. Previous programs to help out South Africa in terms of HIV/AIDS education have failed miserably. I'm positive a good deal of that money will be stolen and embezzled by officials over there. What a waste.

[Hakkola]

Well honestly it's not in America's best interests or anyone outside of Africa for Africa to be rich, the poor people of the world is what makes the rest of us so rich. They throw money at the problem and pretend it's making a difference, when really it isn't, until we strengthen their economy Africa will never change, no matter how much money we throw into their "problems." The real problem is their regions economy.

[Toma]

Originally posted by FN49
Read this article. It was written by a former U.S. Army General. It makes you think..... READ ME! (http://www.rense.com/general33/pepr.htm)

good article. except
Q: What country in the Middle East blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship, the USS Liberty, in international waters, killing 34 and wounding 171 American sailors? Answer: Israel. .... that is not true.....or did I miss something?

Yep.... just the other day Isreali jets buzzed Lebanon in a "training exercise"....intimidation more like it.

Saddam kills his enemies, his people love him. They are just as brainwashed as most Americans. I am not saying Saddam is not a really twsited and bad dude.....because he really is a monster.

But like Bin Laden, one that the "west" created, supported, and put into power.

[Glowrider]

The amount of propoganda in Iraq is insane! Hussein is glorified everywhere! He is an icon there. People actually believe that they won the war??!!

Yeah. Artists dedicate huge murals to him, in an effort to get on his good side. Hussein claims that he won in 1991 because he was still in power, so therefore, the coalition could not have won the war. He neglects to take into consideration that our objective was to get them out of Kuwait, which we succeeded in doing...and not to get Hussein out of Iraq, which we should have done, and according to Schwartzkopf (sp?), we were ready to do, but Bush Sr. told them to stop.

Oh well...clean up is always a bitch.

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by Toma

Anyway....glad you guys are so open minded here. Obviously not a American member dominated board, but rather younger, more inquisitive/sceptical minds. :thumbsup:

Toma
LOL... I heard about the corral....

[Toma]

Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN

LOL... I heard about the corral....

Who told you?? ;)

I had a 50 year old moderator over there tell me he would love to "get me in his sights." (he was one of those die hard, America is always right, army dudes) ;)

Toma

[FN49]

Originally posted by Toma


good article. except .... that is not true.....or did I miss something?



Although it has not been proven there is a lot of evidence that Israel was behind the attack on the Liberty. I don't know the story behind the American diplomatic facility in Egypt.

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by Toma


Who told you?? ;)

I had a 50 year old moderator over there tell me he would love to "get me in his sights." (he was one of those die hard, America is always right, army dudes) ;)

Toma
I forget... Maybe perf shop?

ROFL!!! Wow- i thought no one escaped the "general"....:dunno:

[WildViper]

From what I am gathering here..it seems that the war on Iraq is justified because how ruthless Saddam is.

Well, then Bush needs to STOP lying to us about weapons of mass destructions(WMD) and the link with Al Qaeda. Besides, we are the ones with the most nukes aren't we? Aren't we all the ones killing each other on streets with our 9mms and AKs??? Can't a gun be categorized as a WMD?? Thousands die in US due to that. What about Drunk Drivers? Aren't they WMD as well? Aren't we the one to actually use a WMD?? In Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Stop the BULL. Say it like it is.

First of all, who are we to go police the world. If Saddam wants to kill his people...it is the people's duty to rise up against him. You mean to tell me that millions can't fight against Saddam and his army? Pls...those soldeirs will turn their back as soon as the people rise up to the challenge. Why are we so gung-ho about going and "helping" them? Did they even ask for our help? No.

And you know what is going to happen after we "liberate" Iraq??? We are going to be bad mouthed. So why? Why be the un-official Police of the world?

Only reason I can think of, is because it can benefit us somehow. Simple as that. Which, as I said, before is fine...but just stop this brainwashing...I wasn't born yesterday and neither am I stupid.

That is what is bothering me about our government right now.

and yes, the $15 Bil could have easily helped my friends out in getting training in other fields or something...it could have helped out the "Veterans" a lot of whom are sleeping on the streets now. It sickens me that we leave these people..who fought for us to sleep in the streets..to go hungry....and recently, one Vietnam veteran died..cause of death.."frozen" to death.

It is really time to look at our country and help it first.

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by WildViper
From what I am gathering here..it seems that the war on Iraq is justified because how ruthless Saddam is.

Well, then Bush needs to STOP lying to us about weapons of mass destructions(WMD) and the link with Al Qaeda. Besides, we are the ones with the most nukes aren't we? Aren't we all the ones killing each other on streets with our 9mms and AKs??? Can't a gun be categorized as a WMD?? Thousands die in US due to that. What about Drunk Drivers? Aren't they WMD as well? Aren't we the one to actually use a WMD?? In Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Stop the BULL. Say it like it is.

First of all, who are we to go police the world. If Saddam wants to kill his people...it is the people's duty to rise up against him. You mean to tell me that millions can't fight against Saddam and his army? Pls...those soldeirs will turn their back as soon as the people rise up to the challenge. Why are we so gung-ho about going and "helping" them? Did they even ask for our help? No.

And you know what is going to happen after we "liberate" Iraq??? We are going to be bad mouthed. So why? Why be the un-official Police of the world?

Only reason I can think of, is because it can benefit us somehow. Simple as that. Which, as I said, before is fine...but just stop this brainwashing...I wasn't born yesterday and neither am I stupid.

That is what is bothering me about our government right now.

and yes, the $15 Bil could have easily helped my friends out in getting training in other fields or something...it could have helped out the "Veterans" a lot of whom are sleeping on the streets now. It sickens me that we leave these people..who fought for us to sleep in the streets..to go hungry....and recently, one Vietnam veteran died..cause of death.."frozen" to death.

It is really time to look at our country and help it first. Amen brother!
Do you really own a viper?:D

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by Hakkola
No, don't fuck isreal, it's their land and palistinians are trying to take it saying it's rightfully theirs, when it isn't.


By your standards? Who the fuck are you to say that the Israelis own that land fool? It's NOT their land. It's the Palestinians. Do some research and you will see that. The Americans removed them after the Second World War. During the period of fighting, Palestinian and Israeli citizens fled to avoid murder. The Americans helped the Zionists create an Israeli Government. Palestinians were denied access to their land and homes, while the Israelis were granted automatic citizenship and were allowed to confiscate all palestinian possessions. Now tell me, whose land is it? FUCK ISRAEL.

[hjr]

Originally posted by Weapon_R


By your standards? Who the fuck are you to say that the Israelis own that land fool? It's NOT their land. It's the Palestinians. Do some research and you will see that. The Americans removed them after the Second World War. During the period of fighting, Palestinian and Israeli citizens fled to avoid murder. The Americans helped the Zionists create an Israeli Government. Palestinians were denied access to their land and homes, while the Israelis were granted automatic citizenship and were allowed to confiscate all palestinian possessions. Now tell me, whose land is it? FUCK ISRAEL.

Thanks for the help. But you have to remember to fuck palastine too. They are bad too. At least the crazies in the PLO. They would kill us (you, me, him) if they had the chance, and dont forget that. Now if we were arabs in the middle east then Isreal would have no problem killing us either.

Anyone who says that Israel is not at the base of the problem is fooling themselves or has been overrun with propaganda. Now im not saying that they are the only problem, but it is the constant in the middle east that keeps all the crazified muslim fundimentalists pissed right off, and when they are pissed, people get hurt.

Ohh and BTW in case any of you were thinking of it, im NOT anti-semitical, just anti-israel.

[grideTLS]

Originally posted by FN49


Although it has not been proven there is a lot of evidence that Israel was behind the attack on the Liberty. I don't know the story behind the American diplomatic facility in Egypt.

This is factual information and was dubbed the "Lavon Affair". Read about how the Zionist empire really operates. Zionism is like a cancer but God willing a cure will be found to finally eradicate these infidels. Zionism and not Judaism is the root of all the problems in the Middle East. Visit the attached link to see how fellow Jews feel about the Zionist regime that will most likely cause the destruction of Isreal and the Middle East.

http://nkusa.org

The World needs to live in Peace. For God sake we must raise our voice and take to the streets to make our voices/opinions heard to end bloodshed and animosity towards fellow humankind.

Peace,

GrideTLS

[Glowrider]

The World needs to live in Peace. For God sake we must raise our voice and take to the streets to make our voices/opinions heard to end bloodshed and animosity towards fellow humankind.


A noble message by any definition of the word, but it's pure fantasy. There will always be fighting, and there will always be war. It's in our blood.

[THREE40SEVEN]

Originally posted by Glowrider


A noble message by any definition of the word, but it's pure fantasy. There will always be fighting, and there will always be war. It's in our blood.
Exactly.. Sadly, Its human nature to destroy our surroundings and each other.
How about that bong hit Glow?;) ;) Kiddin:D

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by hjr


Thanks for the help. But you have to remember to fuck palastine too. They are bad too. At least the crazies in the PLO. They would kill us (you, me, him) if they had the chance, and dont forget that. Now if we were arabs in the middle east then Isreal would have no problem killing us either.

Anyone who says that Israel is not at the base of the problem is fooling themselves or has been overrun with propaganda. Now im not saying that they are the only problem, but it is the constant in the middle east that keeps all the crazified muslim fundimentalists pissed right off, and when they are pissed, people get hurt.

Ohh and BTW in case any of you were thinking of it, im NOT anti-semitical, just anti-israel.

Thanks for the help. You have to remember, that before the Zionists entered Jerusalem, Jews and Muslims lived there without much conflict for thousands of years. There was the odd conflict, but nothing compared to today. The Palestinians seem to be extremists in a sense, but that is because you probably get your news from CNN. They are not extremists in my mind. Before you say that they are terrorists, ask yourself why they are willing to sacrifice their life to prove a point. And then ask yourself what the root cause of terrorism is, and you will see my point. So no, I don't agree with you when you say "Fuck Palestinians". Sorry, not at all.

[Glowrider]

How about that bong hit Glow?

Hardy har har :rofl:

[hjr]

well were almost spliting hairs but no, i stand by what i said. Just cause your willing to die for something doesnt make it right. Though i recognise that they really have no other options, it still does not make me feel that the 'ends will justify the means'. BTW i never called em terrorists, cause that is just a point of view, they could be freedom fighters too, depending on how you view it. All im saying is that what they are doing has now been branded 'terrorism' and they will gain little support from those who matter by continuing to do it. Now i dont know what they can do, being that the US wants to push 'it' up thier ass all day, but that still doesnt legitimize killing innocent people.

[hjr]

ohh and dont forget that the christians lived in jerusalem too. Chritians, jews, and muslims all together in relative peace.

And you have to remember that before the European christians raided jerusalem it was a happy time too.

[hjr]

PS- pOT cAn SavE tHE wORld maAAAnN. ----------------------------- Pass the bong this-away

[Toma]

Originally posted by hjr
All im saying is that what they are doing has now been branded 'terrorism' and they will gain little support from those who matter by continuing to do it.

Not exactly. The "wests" propoganda has branded them terrorists, and the brainwashed masses may beleive it.

But all one needs to do is ask WHY there are 3 palestinians killed by Isrealis for every ONE Isreali killed by palestinians. You can't argue facts. 3:1..... if you belive the palestinians are "terrorists" after acknowledging the facts, then you need to give your head a shake.

Then after coming to the inevitable conclusion that it IS the ISREALIS that are the terrorists, you then realize that the US is aiding, funding, supplying weapons (WMD's) to and training a terrorist organization ;)

Toma

[hjr]

And the Middle Easts propaganda has labled them heros and whatnot. its still propaganda. You have to look deeper than just what you have heard and know about. Your saying that 2 wrongs make a right when they dont. I understand that 1 wrong and 1 right dont make a right either but that still doesnt justify the acts the 'terrorists/freedom fighters/heros/bla bla bla' commit.

but anyways,

Yes, by the definition they are terrorists. So is the Israeli army for that matter but as long as they have the US on their side there is shit all anyone can do. I think that you are mistaking my feelings for some sort of pro-israel bent. I really dont like the country and i think that they are MORE wrong than the PLO and all the little groups in the west bank and gaza that commit suicide bombings and ambushes BUT i still think that PLO and others are still wrong.......... OK now you tell me what is right about ambushing defenceless civilians walking home from prayer with automatic weapons. NOTHING, thats what. Yes the palesitinians did do that and many other horrible things too. It doesnt justify the terrible backlash from Israel but it is still bad no matter how you think about it.

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by Weapon_R


By your standards? Who the fuck are you to say that the Israelis own that land fool? It's NOT their land. It's the Palestinians. Do some research and you will see that. The Americans removed them after the Second World War. During the period of fighting, Palestinian and Israeli citizens fled to avoid murder. The Americans helped the Zionists create an Israeli Government. Palestinians were denied access to their land and homes, while the Israelis were granted automatic citizenship and were allowed to confiscate all palestinian possessions. Now tell me, whose land is it? FUCK ISRAEL.

K, and if we go back even farther you'll see that the land has been their's for thousands of years. On the other hand, they've taken it with military force which is exactly what Palistinians did to them, so either way I see at as Isreals land, but I'm impartial and don't see anything wrong with the Palistinians, I'm just saying it's Isreals land.

Honestly I didn't even read your post because you're being a little bitch. "Who the fuck are you," is as far as I got. Ohh, and "who the fuck are you" to say it isn't their land?

Next time try being an adult about it and maybe I'll think about what you have to say.

I don't say fuck isreal or fuck palestine, I don't think you can really blame either side for what's going on.

[WildViper]

It is really not a question of who is right or wrong now actually...rather, who has the power. In fact, that has always been the case.

Case in point: The Roman Empire. The Ottoman Empire. The British Empire and many others...do you seriously think that they became as big as they out of "kindness of their hearts"??? Obviously not. They all were ruthless...they all were politicians..they all were power hungry...and in this quest, truth, sad to say, gets brainwashed and eventually so do people. So the point is....its not who is right or wrong..it is who has the bigger guns and is willing to use them.

The fight between Israel's rights and Palestenian's rights will probably be never ending. But Israel, has US on its side. Is Israel a terrorist state? Who knows..but, we are supporting them. Just like we supported the Mujaheedin fighters against Russia in Afghanistan..just like we trained Osama.....we will learn our lesson when it comes back and bite us in the ass. I am not talking about just the support for Israel..but also other countries.

Pakistan for example harbours terrorists. Everyone knows this. Even US knows this..but they are our Best Friends right now..why? Cause we need their help. It was funny, how Powell made light of the fact that Pakistan was helping N.Korea with Nuclear weapons....he just said "oh, that was before Sep 11..now they are good boys"..or something to that effect. Completely ignored the fact that what Pakistan was doing before Sep 11 was still against UN(more like US) Sanctions. But, hey, we need them..so that's all ok.

In short, countries with bigger guns will run the world with no regard to what is right or wrong. That's just a fact of life and there is nothing that can be done about it....if there was...it would have been done long time back.

[hjr]

There are no easy answers, thats for sure. Look at this damn thread. We cant even agree on whats going on let alone what should be done to fix it...

[___2PaC___]

Originally posted by 350hp_or_Bust


:werd:

I think Bush is a maniac myself ... he has most americans under his 'patriotic' spell ... and a good deal of Canadians too. For once Chretien's lack of decision making skills is coming in handy as he didn't immediatly jump on the 'Bush Bomb the World' campange. Hopefully he'll keep putting off the decision until next election time (one year and counting) and we'll get a half decent leader of this country (fat chance though).

Damn politics... all it does is piss me off! :banghead:


:werd: :werd: EXACTLY

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by Hakkola


K, and if we go back even farther you'll see that the land has been their's for thousands of years. On the other hand, they've taken it with military force which is exactly what Palistinians did to them, so either way I see at as Isreals land, but I'm impartial and don't see anything wrong with the Palistinians, I'm just saying it's Isreals land.

Honestly I didn't even read your post because you're being a little bitch. "Who the fuck are you," is as far as I got. Ohh, and "who the fuck are you" to say it isn't their land?

Next time try being an adult about it and maybe I'll think about what you have to say.

I don't say fuck isreal or fuck palestine, I don't think you can really blame either side for what's going on.

Take it even further back, and I can guarantee that it wasn't their land before that. The real problem is that the land was taken away by the Americans after they promised a guaranteed homeland to the Palestinians, who had lived there for thousands of years. Before this, Muslims, Jews, and Christians lived there (minus the crusades) in relative peace and religious freedom.

If you didn't read my post, don't bother replying as you have just admitted you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Next time, scroll a little further, and try to look past the way I worded it, and it just might educate you to the point where you can reply to my argument with some idea of what I had said.

[Glowrider]

You guys need to grow up. That land rightly belongs to the dinosaurs.

[WildViper]

lol...Glowrider.

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by Weapon_R

If you didn't read my post, don't bother replying as you have just admitted you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

LOL, because I didn't read all of your post I don't know what I'm talking about? That's gotta be the dumbest thing I've read all month.

As for it being guaranteed palistines land, I couldn't say anything about that.

Tell me exactly what happened then since you seem to know so much about the situation.

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by Hakkola


LOL, because I didn't read all of your post I don't know what I'm talking about? That's gotta be the dumbest thing I've read all month.

As for it being guaranteed palistines land, I couldn't say anything about that.

Tell me exactly what happened then since you seem to know so much about the situation.


You commented that you never read my post, so yes, you don't know what you're talking about quoting my post and replying.

It was guaranteed Palestinian land during World War II by the British government, in exchange that the Arabs rise against the Ottoman empire (the Ottoman empire was much weaker, but was fighting the Allies). The Arabs rose up against the Ottoman government, and drove them from the Arab lands, with the help of the British. The Palestinians asserted shared control over their area, and modest Jewish immigration was allowed under British\Palestinian control. After the war, a UN security resolution was passed after the Zionist movement shifted its pressure from Britain (because the British Government had been severely weakened during the war) towards the United States. The resolution stated that Palestine was to be partitioned, and Israel established. The United States then asserted military control and provided equipment to the Zionists to drive the Palestinians from their homes.

The Israeli's attack the Palestinians with US Made M16 rifles, US Made F16 Jets, US-Made Apache Helicopters, and US Made Tanks. American propaganda has made many believe (including yourself) that the Palestinians are terrorists with nothing better to do than to kill themselves and innocent people. While it may seem harsh, is there any other way for them to make an impact against the Israeli government and international community without going to these great lengths? Furthermore, do you think these "terrorists" can fight an army that flosses weapons, training, and equipment from the U.S? Their only chance to make an impact is to give up their life so that someone else may have a better chance in the future. Point is, Palestinian land and assets (remember, the jews and christians also possessed homes, land, money, and personal items) were taken away and confiscated, only to allow Israeli citizens to move into these areas - that is where you see so many attacks...on the settlements.

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by Weapon_R

American propaganda has made many believe (including yourself) that the Palestinians are terrorists with nothing better to do than to kill themselves and innocent people.

You've told me mostly things that I already know, what I don't understand, and you haven't really gone into, is where all the jewish people were before they began immigrating? My assumptions are that many jews were in the area but the name Isreal had ceased to exist and the country was recreated after the war.

What I'm wondering is why the jews started attacking the palestinians, or do you even know?

Now on a personal note I never said anything about palistinians being terrorists at all, if I did show me, maybe I've forgotten.

I know all about the attacks on the settlements on what is a disputed border though. Many christians still live in Isreal, I don't think they're having many problems.

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by Hakkola


You've told me mostly things that I already know, what I don't understand, and you haven't really gone into, is where all the jewish people were before they began immigrating? My assumptions are that many jews were in the area but the name Isreal had ceased to exist and the country was recreated after the war.

I think you are confusing religion with culture. Jewish people are all around the world. They are not a race, but a religion. Just like saying that Arabs=Muslims. All arabs are not muslims. In fact, in Lebanon alone, Christians make up approximately 45% of the entire population, and that country is considered an Arab country. The Jews immigrated from all over the world, after being promised a homeland and citizenship to practice their faith in Jerusalem, which they consider holy.


Originally posted by Hakkola
What I'm wondering is why the jews started attacking the palestinians, or do you even know?

The Jews did not attack the Palestinians immediately. The fighting began when the area was partitioned, and the Palestinians were forced to leave the land of the Israelis, where the Palestinians had already existed. When they were not allowed to return, they began fighting. It is like the Japanese internment camps of World War II, where the Japanese immigrants were forced to leave their homes, and returned to find that the government had taken their homes and sold off their assets. Make sense now?


Originally posted by Hakkola
Now on a personal note I never said anything about palistinians being terrorists at all, if I did show me, maybe I've forgotten.

I know all about the attacks on the settlements on what is a disputed border though. Many christians still live in Isreal, I don't think they're having many problems.

Not sure if you have or not, but I know that someone did, and that is why I emphasize the word "terrorist". I don't think they are. Not at all. I honestly think that the Israeli government, with their incredible refusal to follow any UN resolutions, possession of WMD beyond the dreams of any and all arab states combined, and their assassinations of Palestinian civilians are the terrorists.

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by Weapon_R


I think you are confusing religion with culture. Jewish people are all around the world.

Not sure if you have or not, but I know that someone did, and that is why I emphasize the word "terrorist". I don't think they are.

No, I don't have it confused, I know. I'm just saying haven't isreali people been living in the area for a long time? I refered to isreali's as jews when maybe that isn't right, but whatever.

Wouldn't you say it's counter terrorism, you might look at like that and say they're terrorists, I won't refute your postition, however that doesn't make what the palestinians are doing any less like terrorism.

From what I've been seeing it's just retaliation after retaliation from both sides which is pretty stupid.

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by Hakkola
From what I've been seeing it's just retaliation after retaliation from both sides which is pretty stupid.

:werd: Nicely put, and let's end it at that.

[Glowrider]

I still say it belongs to the dinosaurs.

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by Glowrider
I still say it belongs to the dinosaurs.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Glowrider]

Heh, I think someone should lock this thread. It's getting a little crazy. I dropped out of the debate, because while I was writing a response to one post, 3 more would pop up. LOL.

[hjr]

i think its done. No need to go any further

[mwmhong]

Originally posted by Glowrider
I still say it belongs to the dinosaurs.

But that's like saying today it belongs to 'humans'.
So the issue now is: were the dinosaurs Israeli or Palestinian? :D

[finboy]

hope no one minds but i used a few facts from this discussion on another board.

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by mwmhong


But that's like saying today it belongs to 'humans'.
So the issue now is: were the dinosaurs Israeli or Palestinian? :D

Palestinian :D

[Glowrider]

Hey man, dinosaurs have rights too!