Whats going on with FORD amd GM?

[R!zz0]

I was watching Communist News Network (CNN) and i thought i saw ford laying people off? I couldn't watch the whole news cuz my 5 yr old nephew wanted to watch treehouse. What's going on with GM and Ford? Is the import market really destroying them?
I know Toyota and GM had talks before but never thought Ford was goin down too.

[Xtrema]

Both heavily relied on trucks and SUVs. Gas prices is not helping them move inventories which led to idle plants. Both have no small cars to compete with the imports and while quality is actually on par with Japanese, style, design and technology are still behind.

Case in point, new G6's engines are horrible, every one include Hyundai can squeeze 240-280HP out of a 3.5L powerplant while GM only does 201HP. Interior plastic is very cheap.

Ford Fusion is also quite ugly on the inside.

[Redlyne_mr2]

Product is only a small part of their troubles. Its the entire images of the company, their junk bond status, their weak and unstable investments and liabilities ie Daewoo and Jag as well as the unions and health care structure. Their archeic management and old school mentality all are leading to their downfall. Plus the fact that no reputable executives want to work for them. Carlos Ghosn, the ceo of Nissan and the man responsible for Nissans comeback denied job offers both from Ford and GM. And this rate will they ever be able to recover?

[Kirbs17]

Also, American Unions are killing these once-giants. (Dont get me wrong, I support unions). But with some of the practices, and a lot of the other theroys and procedures they use, Japanese and German auto manufacturers can simply make a better car because there isnt as much beurocratic bullsh!t. I.E. American car manufacturers have tried for year to obtain steel from supplies by choosing the one who could supply it at the lowest cost, then driving them down further, well the Japanese (Nissan and Toyota namely) have spent years setting up relations with their supplies, trying to find ways to cut costs together.

[SwitchBlade]

Oversold the market

Undesirable product

Gas prices and Truck and SUV re-evalulation

Heavy competition from foreign markets and no autopact or
similar legislation

Health care costs

[sputnik]

I would blame the CAW/UAW paying a forklift operator $100k/yr before I would blame higher gas prices and its impact of the SUV/Truck market.

[benyl]

Health care costs and Pension liabilities.

DaimlerChrysler just announced cuts and plant closures.

The product mix is poor. People are now trained to buy only when there are incentives.

GM is no longer a car company. It is a financial institution and a health care provider. GMAC is the only part of GM making money. They should sell it off.

GM is also the second largest health care provider in the US.

A solution is to tell the Unions to fuck off. GM needs to give the burden of the pension liabilities to the Unions.

The worst part is that if they declare bankrupcy, it is a double edged sword. People, in general, won't buy a car from a company that has declared bankrupcy.

[Kirbs17]

Ford: At Least They Circled the Problem


:D

[Goblin]

^ haha thats great

Yeah what was it, 31k jobs? damn

[handsomebassman]

Originally posted by Xtrema
...and while quality is actually on par with Japanese.....

Quality is NOT on par with japanese. Go for a weekend of test driving. You can almost break all of gm's climate control knobs off with normal use.

[finboy]

Originally posted by SwitchBlade
Oversold the market

Undesirable product

Gas prices and Truck and SUV re-evalulation

Heavy competition from foreign markets and no autopact or
similar legislation

Health care costs



Originally posted by sputnik
I would blame the CAW/UAW paying a forklift operator $100k/yr before I would blame higher gas prices and its impact of the SUV/Truck market.


hit the nail on the head

in an interview, for execs were saying that even with some of the import companies setting up in america, they are aiming towards the southern states because it is harder to set up a union down there.

all in all, the big 3 screwed themselves, which really kind of sucks because they are making much better cars now, unfortunatly its too little too late.

[b_t]

Originally posted by handsomebassman


Quality is NOT on par with japanese. Go for a weekend of test driving. You can almost break all of gm's climate control knobs off with normal use.

Actually, it is on par, and actually GM exceeds some big foreign automakers in terms of quality.

[benyl]

Originally posted by b_t


Actually, it is on par, and actually GM exceeds some big foreign automakers in terms of quality.

But the perception of poor quality is pervasive.

[Nissanaddict]

Gm has improved, HUGELY on quality, but it is not on par with the Japanese...and I used to be a HUGE GM fan.

[handsomebassman]

Originally posted by b_t


Actually, it is on par, and actually GM exceeds some big foreign automakers in terms of quality.

Ill bring my 06 civic, and you bring any 06 gm vehicle. Even the corvette. Lol, ill show you the difference.

Watch top gears review of the corvette. The could move the whole rear of the vehicle (tail lights, body panels) with one finger. And they could bend all interior plastic pieces.

[benyl]

Every review of the C6 corvette that I have read / seen said that it would be a great car if it weren't for the shitty build quality.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by handsomebassman
Quality is NOT on par with japanese. Go for a weekend of test driving. You can almost break all of gm's climate control knobs off with normal use.

I mean more on reliability:

http://www.cartest.ca/2005_most_reliable_vehicles.htm

http://www.cartest.ca/59b6a260.jpg

The Japanese reliablity is slowly turning into an urban myth.

[benyl]

New article on CNN about this:

Fact check: Are American cars really that bad?

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/23/Autos/american_cars/index.htm

[kaput]

.

[Nissanaddict]

I was referring to build quality as well....as far as reliability....Weve owned a few gms. Corsica....245 000kms, dead by engine gunk buildup largely due to car sitting around for 4 years...tranny still shifted great (automatic) mind you the build quality sucked, but I found it more comfortable to drive than newer gms (10 hour drives included) Chev Beretta....owned it for a month. Previous owner off-roaded regularily, so suspension and steering problems due to VERY intense abuse.....Engine? 310 000kms, still ran strong. Tranny was acting funny, but only shifting into 1st gear, once it was in, it worked fine. Since the Corsica had the same suspension I know essentially it's fine if not driven through stuff it shouldn't be in. Quality, also sucked. parents' venture....airbag problems, and that's it.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by handsomebassman


Ill bring my 06 civic, and you bring any 06 gm vehicle. Even the corvette. Lol, ill show you the difference.

Yes Honda interiors have a quality feel but in my experience they don't age well. My 1995 Delsol VTEC had the famous armrest problem where the vinyl on the door armrest pulls away from the door which was a huge eyesore and my brother had the exact same problem with his 1996 Integra GSR. My 1994 Civic Si's interior suffered from burned out HVAC lighting and the complete interior turned into the worst rattletrap I've ever owned.

The plastics may look & feel cheaper in American cars but that doesn't mean that they won't last just as long or have more problems. Domestic's biggest problem is perception not actual quality or durability.

[handsomebassman]

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/car-guide-2004/domestic-import1.asp
Import vs. Domestic (yay import)


I must say though, i am highly impressed with the drastic improvement with fords and Chrysler Vehicles within the last 5 years or so. GM still reminds me of that crap i cough up, that snotty shit, after a bad flu.

[bspot]

Originally posted by handsomebassman
http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/car-guide-2004/domestic-import1.asp
Import vs. Domestic (yay import)


I must say though, i am highly impressed with the drastic improvement with fords and Chrysler Vehicles within the last 5 years or so. GM still reminds me of that crap i cough up, that snotty shit, after a bad flu.

Did you even read your own article?

You're coming across as one of the "I own a honda and its so much better than any american garbage" type of owners.

I respect opinions of people like HeavyD and Benyl that from the sounds of it have actually had experience with both. I'm not about to sit here and tell you that build quality is equal between GM and Honda, but you make it sound like because I drive a car made on the wrong continent I'll be lucky if it gets me home tonight.

[handsomebassman]

Originally posted by bspot

DID U EV3N READ UR OWN ARTICLE?????! OMG WTF LOL COMNG ACROS AS ONE OF DA I OWN A HONDA AND ITS SO MUCH BTER THAN ANY MERICAN GARBAEG TYP3 OF OWNERS
I!11!! RESPECT OPINIONS OF PEOPL3 LIEK HEAVYD AND BNYL TAHT FROM TEH SOUNDS OF IT HAEV ACTUALY HAD 3XPEREINC3 WIT BOTH11!1!! LOL IMM NOT ABOUT 2 SIT HERA AND TEL U TAHT BUILD QUALITY IS EQUAL BTWEN GM AND HONDA BUT U MAEK IT SOUND LIEK B/C I DRIEV A CAR MAED ON TEH WRONG CONTIENNT IL B LUKY IF IT GETS MA HOM3 2NIGHT!!1!!! OMG WTF LOL

listen buddy, i have owned both as well, and just because you drive a cobalt/cavalier, and think you got bigger balls than everyone because you drive a "fast chevy", doesnt give you the ability to twist around everything i say.
I never said you would have to worry about getting home tonight with your american cage.

But i will say this, I bet you my car will see many more km's with less problems than yours. The history of import vs. domestic will support my thesis.

[Altezza]

I agree with most of what has been said. Domestic automakers have been playing catchup since the 80s. They spent more time and money dissecting imports than developing quality products themselves. If they do manage to catchup, the imports have already made strides forward. In the meantime, they've lost sight of key demographic trends. Add that to increasing liabilty of health care and pension obligations and you've got a mix for disaster. As I said last year, I see GM going under creditor protection in the next 5 years. That would force the renegotiation of its obligations to the unions to something more fair for GM.

[chong_wallace]

Originally posted by b_t


Actually, it is on par, and actually GM exceeds some big foreign automakers in terms of quality.

So what is quality based on? Surely not reliability.

In terms terms of reliability, it's quite clear that japanese cars are built better than american vehicles. (see all Generation Chevy Cavaliers :rofl:) My friend's a mechanic for chevy and he sees many models coming in for engine repair at 80000 kms, that's pretty ridiculous if you ask me, who really wants to buy a car that will start falling apart in 5 years? It seems the marketers for these american manufactures were literally on a 5 year plan :rofl:, with no consideration for the future of the corporation. This is where i think the american companies went wrong

[handsomebassman]

Originally posted by Altezza
I agree with most of what has been said. Domestic automakers have been playing catchup since the 80s. They spent more time and money dissecting imports than developing quality products themselves. If they do manage to catchup, the imports have already made strides forward. In the meantime, they've lost sight of key demographic trends. Add that to increasing liabilty of health care and pension obligations and you've got a mix for disaster. As I said last year, I see GM going under creditor protection in the next 5 years. That would force the renegotiation of its obligations to the unions to something more fair for GM.


Originally posted by chong_wallace


So what is quality based on? Surely not reliability.

In terms terms of reliability, it's quite clear that japanese cars are built better than american vehicles. (see all Generation Chevy Cavaliers :rofl:) My friend's a mechanic for chevy and he sees many models coming in for engine repair at 80000 kms, that's pretty ridiculous if you ask me, who really wants to buy a car that will start falling apart in 5 years? It seems the marketers for these american manufactures were literally on a 5 year plan :rofl:, with no consideration for the future of the corporation. This is where i think the american companies went wrong

:werd: x2

[Redlyne_mr2]

Some of you guys are ignorant to the entire auto industry. You have the same mindset as old muscle car guys who thought Japanese cars were junk. The import and domestic words are gone. It is now a global market. Your Honda is built in Canada, your GMC is built in China, your Chrysler is built in Germany. Ive seen shitty hondas, and Ive seen shitty GMC's but its also based on perception. True I prefer the interior of the Japanese car, I prefer the plastics and materials used but there are many many people who feel otherwise. If you want I can nit pick a honda too, I can point out the shitty orange peel paint jobs that those cars get from teh factory, or the squeaks and chirps that they have after a couple years of ownership..or their shitty honda gearboxs that feel like your shifting a tranny without fluid using a wooden stick. Or we could talk about the Acura MDXs and all the insanely huge problems that they have had. Ask an Acura tech how he fells about an early gen MDX, they will tell you. Im a die hard Toyota fan so Im not pro GM or Ford by any means but I could ever point out the shitty qualities in todays toyotas vs the quality that I see in my mr2 from 1991.

[retro-steve]

i liked my '92 saturn SC...over 216,000km and the most expensive repair it had was a $165 engine mount. all the parts are cheap and easy to find, repairs were easy, was faster than all stock civics within a 5 year timeframe of it and handled quite well. the interior was cheap but the seats were more comfortable than my mustang, much better support

[handsomebassman]

Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2
The import and domestic words are gone. It is now a global market. Your Honda is built in Canada, your GMC is built in China, your Chrysler is built in Germany.

Dont think we dont know that, hell, my civic coupe was built in canada. But the design, and quality standards, and materials choice is all honda's. Not "mike from canmore"'s.

[Rockski]

Originally posted by Xtrema


I mean more on reliability:

http://www.cartest.ca/2005_most_reliable_vehicles.htm



The Japanese reliablity is slowly turning into an urban myth.

haha lada didnt even make the list

[Nix87]

does Lada still exist?

[Rockski]

pretty sure... i remember a couple years ago i saw some nice lada roadsters, i think they updated their badging and are still putting out vehicals made from recycled cans and tanks

[88CRXGUY]

Last year my neighbour had one, but he don't have it anymore. Yeah Lada is gone in canada..

[heavyD]

I can personally attest that there were some horrible cars put out in the 80's from domestic to import. Things have gradually changed throughout the 90's to the point where it is today. I'm fairly confident that I could walk into any dealership today and pickup a fairly reliable car. All cars are generally built better and while any manufacturer can put out a lemon I believe that there are fewer lemons overall compared to ten years ago and longer.

Cars are moving machinery that the average person spends maybe an hour in every day driving in all sorts of different climates seasonally through various hostile weather conditions. Wear & tear is inevitable and mechanical, rotating, electric parts fail over time. Happens to all of them. Some cars are of more quality than others but the average Toyota also costs more than the average car so the quality comes at a price. Some people don't care that their $18K Focus doesn't have the soft plastics that a $24K Corolla does. They just want economical transportation as not everyone is a car enthusiast like many of us that obsess over every little thing such as hp, sporty looks, racy seats, lsd's, etc.

[Aleks]

"...last five years the Canadian-built Chevrolet Impala has outscored Toyota's Camry in initial quality. Five straight years...."

a different spin


http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jc/quality.htm

[bspot]

Originally posted by handsomebassman


listen buddy, i have owned both as well, and just because you drive a cobalt/cavalier, and think you got bigger balls than everyone because you drive a "fast chevy", doesnt give you the ability to twist around everything i say.
I never said you would have to worry about getting home tonight with your american cage.

But i will say this, I bet you my car will see many more km's with less problems than yours. The history of import vs. domestic will support my thesis.

Nice one handjob bassman. Wow, calling it a cavalier! What an original insult. No shit my car won't last as long, its a little 2.0L seeing 12lbs of boost, soon to be 17lbs. Give me a cavalier with a 2.2L ecotec though and its even money for that engine to run just as long as yours.

Why do people get all sensitive when people have cars that are faster than theirs and cheaper? Do you think I don't realize why my car is cheaper yet has more features, more power, and better handling? Of course its give and take.

Newsflash though, your Japanese econobox doesn't make you superior to me because of my American econobox.

Now you go drive your little civic for 25 years to prove to me how great it is, and I'll get rid of my car in a couple years and upgrade to something better... without my daddy's money.

[bspot]

Dear handjobbassman, please read all of the above articles posted in this thread, and realize you are talking out of your ass.

Please go home and make sweet sweet love to your Michael moore doll.

[brandon]

Originally posted by bspot

Please go home and make sweet sweet love to your Michael moore doll.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[benyl]

Originally posted by handsomebassman


Dont think we dont know that, hell, my civic coupe was built in canada. But the design, and quality standards, and materials choice is all honda's. Not "mike from canmore"'s.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Let's see. My 2001 Accord EX-V6 was designed by Honda and to their quality standards. So was the transmission. The transmission started slipping at 50,000 kms.

Every automatic transmission from that generation of Accord, TL, CL, Prelude, Odyssey, and MDX were junk. Instead of doing a recall like GM or Ford would, Honda extended the warranty to 170,000 km and "hoped" that it would last that long. The ones that were replaced under warranty were refurbished units that had the same problems and would disintegrate too.

70 year geriatric drivers were replacing their transmissions every 30,000 kms.

It is so bad that the owners of these cars were thinking of a class action lawsuit against Honda. hundresds of thousands of cars are affected by this.

so much for Honda quality.

[Christianl]

I have driven alot of vehicles, for my age, and I find that Toyotas do tend to be more reliable, becuase I have owned four Camrys, and I still have them within the family. but I just bought a Jeep Comanche and this thing is damn near bulletproof, all I did was put in a new rad and water pump, because the person before me didnt want to and sold it at a decent price, there is no such thing as brand loyalty in my books, a vehicle is only good, until the day it dies. Ive also owned a 99 Civic sedan for two weeks, but do to a shitty tranny it died, and I scrapped it.
My point is, I dont care what brand it is, as long as it's reliable and parts are cheap:burnout:

[b_t]

Originally posted by chong_wallace


So what is quality based on? Surely not reliability.

In terms terms of reliability, it's quite clear that japanese cars are built better than american vehicles. (see all Generation Chevy Cavaliers :rofl:) My friend's a mechanic for chevy and he sees many models coming in for engine repair at 80000 kms, that's pretty ridiculous if you ask me, who really wants to buy a car that will start falling apart in 5 years? It seems the marketers for these american manufactures were literally on a 5 year plan :rofl:, with no consideration for the future of the corporation. This is where i think the american companies went wrong

I dunno about you but reliability = quality. I don't care if my interior feels and looks like a Swiss watch if my car is breaking down and costing me $100 in repairs every 5,000km. I don't care about crappy interior plastics, either, as long as the steering wheel is nice to hold and the driver's seat is comfortable, everyone is going to look at my deck anyway so the rest - no concern of mine.

But your last point is 100% valid.

[roopi]

Originally posted by benyl
Health care costs and Pension liabilities.

DaimlerChrysler just announced cuts and plant closures.

The product mix is poor. People are now trained to buy only when there are incentives.

GM is no longer a car company. It is a financial institution and a health care provider. GMAC is the only part of GM making money. They should sell it off.

GM is also the second largest health care provider in the US.

A solution is to tell the Unions to fuck off. GM needs to give the burden of the pension liabilities to the Unions.

The worst part is that if they declare bankrupcy, it is a double edged sword. People, in general, won't buy a car from a company that has declared bankrupcy.

What benefit do you see in selling the only profitible division of the company? I know there as been talk of it by GM but personally it makes no sense to me other than cash to try and rebuild the failing parts. :dunno:

[bspot]

Originally posted by Christianl
I have driven alot of vehicles, for my age, and I find that Toyotas do tend to be more reliable, becuase I have owned four Camrys, and I still have them within the family. but I just bought a Jeep Comanche and this thing is damn near bulletproof, all I did was put in a new rad and water pump, because the person before me didnt want to and sold it at a decent price, there is no such thing as brand loyalty in my books, a vehicle is only good, until the day it dies. Ive also owned a 99 Civic sedan for two weeks, but do to a shitty tranny it died, and I scrapped it.
My point is, I dont care what brand it is, as long as it's reliable and parts are cheap:burnout:

Exactly, who cares who made it. I don't give a shit where my car gets made either. I just buy what I like best for how much I'm willing to spend. If I'm ready for a 50K car anytime soon its STI or 350Z time. I don't have loyalty to GM or American cars, nor do I think I need to have a japanese car to be cool. It just happens that Japan produces my favorite 50K cars which is my next price range.

[Howl]

We have yet to see if the newer generation of import vehicles made in america are going to have the past proven reliability of vehicles made in japan.

I think the labor ethics of the people making the car has a lot to do with quality/reliability....

[benyl]

yes we have. My post above is a clear example. The 6th generation Accord, TL, CL, MDX, Odyssey are make in NA. They are no where near as good as the previous generations.

[benyl]

Originally posted by roopi


What benefit do you see in selling the only profitible division of the company? I know there as been talk of it by GM but personally it makes no sense to me other than cash to try and rebuild the failing parts. :dunno:

GM can take the money from the sale, pay out it's pension and health care obligations and start from a clean slate.

$1600 of each car goes to healthcare and pensions.

Also, GMAC is not GMs core business. Last I checked, it was a car manufacturing company, not a Bank, healthcare and insurance provider. It does not have the skills to push those businesses to their fullest potential.

I haven't looked, but I doubt that GM has in its Mission statement or goals to be the best Bank in the world.

HP had a similar problem years ago. It diversified into printers and computers away from its core of technical instruments. That division was sold of a few years ago. HP is not even close to the same company when it started as Hewlett-Packard.

[Sunburst_Spec_V]

GM loses about $2,000 for every vehicle sold that was made in NA. Toyota, Nissan and Honda make between $1450-$1650 per vehicle sold that was made in NA.

[hampstor]

Originally posted by Sunburst_Spec_V
GM loses about $2,000 for every vehicle sold that was made in NA. Toyota, Nissan and Honda make between $1450-$1650 per vehicle sold that was made in NA.

Is that assuming the customer pays cash for the car? If not and that's takes into account the money made off of financing the car then GM is in a more trouble then we first thought :eek:

[ninspeed]

right on to the big three for droping jobs and closing factorys. The UAW has been keeping these people and factorys open way too long forcing the companys to keep loosing money. I hope this is the starting of the end of the UAW/CAW

[asifka]

for a long drive, i still prefer impala over camry or accord...

[heavyD]

I believe GM needs to go back to it's core brands of just Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, & Cadillac. Get rid of Saab & affiliations with Izuzu, Subaru (done already I think) and shut down Saturn for good. Too many re-badged versions of the same cars = not enough focus on the quality & engineering.

[b_t]

Cutting down on the amount of brands would be a good idea, but they should just ditch Buick. There hasn't been a buzzworthy Buick out in like... hmm... since the 1980s at least.

[ninspeed]

Originally posted by heavyD
I believe GM needs to go back to it's core brands of just Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, & Cadillac. Get rid of Saab & affiliations with Izuzu, Subaru (done already I think) and shut down Saturn for good. Too many re-badged versions of the same cars = not enough focus on the quality & engineering.

I dont agree with that, hows does making one platform for several "makes" take away the focus on quality? If anything, it makes it better as now you have a wider field of customers who are going to buy the same product .take the new minivan for ex. 50 year old grandpa will gp pick up the buick version, but his young daugeter who has 3 kids who play soccer will buy the saturn or pontiac, and her husband will buy the chev for bussiness... but they are all the same +/- a few options.

Still sticking to my point that the UAW/CAW unions need to be shut down, they are costing the US manafactures way to much money.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by ninspeed
I dont agree with that, hows does making one platform for several "makes" take away the focus on quality?

Why do you need so many divisions with their own individual teams to make and sell the same car? They are paying millions to the same staffs at different divisions to sell the same car. The time, R&D, & money it takes to design & manufacture all the different bumpers, tail lights, interior designs, etc. to differentiate the models could be spent on improving the overall vehicle. This is what tends to happen to large companies that get spread too far. They tend to lose focus. That's why successful companies like Honda, Nissan, & Toyota don't go buying out other smaller car companies just to add numbers. They only make a small number of vehicles and spend their efforts improving them. Do you think the Civic would sell any better if it was sold as three different types of vehicles with different bumpers & interiors? I don't think so.:rolleyes:

[Redlyne_mr2]

Well its tough to say wether platform sharing is profitable or not. All the big manufacturers have done it, nissan with infinity, toyota with lexus, honda with acura etc. Even Chrysler and Benz are at it...its hit and miss I guess

[bspot]

Originally posted by heavyD


Do you think the Civic would sell any better if it was sold as three different types of vehicles with different bumpers & interiors? I don't think so.:rolleyes:

*Cough* Acura 1.x EL *Cough*

Thats only 2 different types, but still..

[asifka]

Originally posted by heavyD


Why do you need so many divisions with their own individual teams to make and sell the same car? ......................................................as three different types of vehicles with different bumpers & interiors? I don't think so.:rolleyes:

:werd: who wana buy a brand new saturn anyways??

[H4LFY2nR]

Originally posted by heavyD
Do you think the Civic would sell any better if it was sold as three different types of vehicles with different bumpers & interiors? I don't think so.:rolleyes:



Originally posted by bspot


*Cough* Acura 1.x EL *Cough*

Thats only 2 different types, but still..


And that's why the EL / CSX is only offered in Canada. Everywhere else in the world is smarter than to buy a civic with leather.

[Alexs]

Originally posted by H4LFY2nR






And that's why the EL / CSX is only offered in Canada. Everywhere else in the world is smarter than to buy a civic with leather.

Is English your first language?

[nonsane]

I attach a graph here. i combined the manufactures together,

This is problems per 100

And note to reduce confusion
GM includes:
Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, Pontiac, Saab, Izuzu, Saturn, Olds

Ford includes:
Lincoln, Mercury, Mazda, Volvo, Land Rover, Jaguar

VW includes:
Audi, Porche

Chrysler includes:
Dodge, Mitusbihi, Mercedes, Jeep

BMW includes:
Mini

Hyundai includes:
Kia

[nonsane]

And since this is the nature of the argument, i groups all the countries together...

The moral of the story: Don't buy korean!!

[benyl]

That is a really shitty graph. There is no indication of where you got the data, nor is there any indication of the date when this data was collected.

[nonsane]

the data is compiled from the graph posted previously in the thread..

please read thread.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by bspot


*Cough* Acura 1.x EL *Cough*

Thats only 2 different types, but still..

No I thought of that but since it's only offrered in Canada doesn't really count as EL sales account for a spit in the bucket for overall Civic sales.

[93hustler]

I don't honestly think the US government would let GM or Ford go under. But then again the US government is a bunch of retards. I think they will pull through, Dodge went through this scenario in the 80's and they are doing OK now

[Hollywood]

Originally posted by heavyD
I believe GM needs to go back to it's core brands of just Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, & Cadillac. Get rid of Saab & affiliations with Izuzu, Subaru (done already I think) and shut down Saturn for good. Too many re-badged versions of the same cars = not enough focus on the quality & engineering.

I agree.


Originally posted by nonsane
GM includes:
Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, Pontiac, Saab, Izuzu, Saturn, Olds

Ford includes:
Lincoln, Mercury, Mazda, Volvo, Land Rover, Jaguar



Yup they need to get rid of lincoln, mercury, GMC, Saab, Izuzu, Olds and buick.

The generations interested in these vehicles are fading save a few models. I dont think many of us will be buying a "buick lesaber" or a "mercury marauder" or even a "GMC envoy" when I can get a "chev blazer" instead. They need to trim the fat like nissan did. And I persoanlly think saturn should stay, I like the saturn suv and the new roadster.

Now Nissan. Ever since they launched the North american plants their quality has dropped significantly, but hey at least they did not fold. But to me interior should not be able to be scratched off like in the expensive g35c.

Best car newer car I have owned is my GS. There is a reason why Lexus is on top.

Best older car I have owned. My 89 ford probe gt. I can tell you the factory paint on my probe is better than anything currently sold today by any of the big car companies by such a long shot its not even funny. Im not sure how much of mazda made of the probe, but I'm pretty sure it was fords metal and paint, but I could be wrong.

[Sunburst_Spec_V]

Best older car I have owned. My 89 ford probe gt. I can tell you the factory paint on my probe is better than anything currently sold today by any of the big car companies by such a long shot its not even funny. Im not sure how much of mazda made of the probe, but I'm pretty sure it was fords metal and paint, but I could be wrong. [/B]

If companys went back to oil based paints they quality would be there again but it is bad for the environment.