Apex Limited (National) Condo Cancelled!

[TDA]

Ok, this happened to a colleague of mine. His condo got cancelled, his deposit returned. This is after he put money down last summer, and it went up in price like crazy...

He's pissed.

Personally I think they're just trying to get more money of it... a month later they'll go "oh gee golly, now we can do it!"

Who else has gotten screwed over?


Story of a similar strategy
http://www.canada.com/globaltv/calgary/consumerbeat/story.html?id=4cc82591-532b-4ba9-b5d6-e6b28301a8a8

[Xtrema]

Yes, I lot of builders are voiding contracts so they can adjust the price.

[frostyda9]

I've been pretty shocked by the greed of some of the builders out there :thumbsdow

I'm not naming names, but I have a feeling there may be a class action suit coming for at least one of them

[01RedDX]

.

[Mr_John]

Originally posted by frostyda9
I've been pretty shocked by the greed of some of the builders out there :thumbsdow



well they're building for profits
why not cancel if they can have higher prices
i would
its a one time thing to be building on that land pretty much
might as well get the most out of it

consumer wise yeah that sucks
business wise its smart

[Fivewayradio]

Builders are stupid to presell condos right now. They're getting deposits and agreeing to prices based on today's market value for both the unit and construction, but when it's built it'll be at costs far higher than they are now. I can see this jeopardizing a lot of projects. I hear tower two in Arriva is in the same boat.

I think the National project is a huge loss to the community and I hope Apex can either figure out a way to continue, even if it is a higher prices, or someone else can follow through where they failed. That project has the potential to kickstart development in Inglewood and that can only be a positive thing for area.

[blueToy]

Builders are no dummies . Yes I agree most of them are run by greedy bastards that just love to take advantage of this 'boom' situation Calgary seems to be in . BUT , that being said , lots of builders are being caught by their " short and curlies " because of the extreme demand placed on them at this time . The reasons why :

Labour shortage . I know you hear about it everyday , and it was something predicted years ago but most failed to act on . BUT , finding HIGHLY SKILLEDED AND KNOWLEDGABLE workers is very difficult because who wants to go work for a wage when you find so much desperation in this current market ?

Material shortage . This is the big one . Even before Katrina and Rita devasted New Orleans and area , there were already shortages of steel , rubber , concrete , etc . SINCE , the hurricanes , a large percentage of materials destined for Alberta were pulled away to help start rebuilding just the primary necessities of the areas concerned . This means two things . Builders can no longer rely on their dealers to provide anything they need without a possible huge wait and when they do get their hands on said materials it's going to be at a absolute premium price which is now going up almost daily . Even a estimate 7-8 months ago is totally worthless . I actually know of projects that have only been partially finished and because the builders have been forced to sit soooo long to get things done , it is no longer even profitable to finish the job . What do you do ? Finish KNOWING you are losing money ?

Crazy Demand . What is curious about all this is that because folks who have been building up this city ( city planners ) messed up so bad , and got caught off guard by the US pulling much needed resources , they've been caught with their shorts down and it's caused lots of folks to become " stupid desperate ". Not many people here want that news to be released because it's making tons of folks huges piles of money . Even banks are laughing at people wanting huge mortgages etc . Sure , why not ? The interest rates are going up and it's win/win for them .

Anyway , certainly not the first boom I've seen here , and it probably wouldn't be my last . Oh , and as for the prices going up . Expect it to be almost exponential as the building season starts again . That $15,000 driveway/sidewalk 2 years ago is now going to put you back $25-30,000 , and look for new wording on all contracts like surcharges and added fee's , etc . I reckon most folks looking to get things done this year are going to get fleesed . Oh , and remember . If you do get a cheap price thats' " too good to be true " , it probably will be because I've met TONS of new arrivals to the industry who have no real clue about the work part . They're really good at the BS'ing part though and really don't about anything else but themselves and how they are going to take advantage of our current situation .

As for lawsuits . Waste of time I reckon . You'll just put more money into the endless depths of lawyers pockets . They too want a piece of the action and promise all kinds of things . Till they suck you dry and leave you flopping around like a fish out of water . Then , it's just a easy excuse to lose you , and if you say anything to them , they'll return the favor of you trusting them with threat to make your existance even worse .

Just my too .

[frostyda9]

Originally posted by Mr_John


well they're building for profits
why not cancel if they can have higher prices


From a business standpoint, it's their perogative to try and make as much money as possible, or course.

Personally though, I think it's borderline unethical to deamnd an extra $40k for a house unless there is a clearly stated clause in the contract that says the property is subject to market fluctuations during building.

If the clause is in place, then pull down your pants, hold on to your ankles and get ready for it.

It just seems a little shady to demand $390k for a house when the builder stands to make a tidy profit at the original price of $350k. To me that is gouging the customer.

The market is so hot though, they can and will continue to get away with doing it. Good if you're a homebuilder, bad if you're right at the limit of what you can afford when buying a house.

[frozenrice]

Yes, builder's need to make money to stay in business, but it's not totally any one builder's fault. Most builders have a certain number in mind that they're willing to "not make" in case the price of something changes. However, with the cost of labour going up daily, the price demanded by certain trades has exceeded what most builder's deem comfortable. It's the trades that are driving this whole price escalation thing. They're basically saying that they'll go to another builder if the builder they're currently working for doesn't ante up the extra cash. Believe me, I've seen this first hand. Part of the trade price escalation can be attributed to material/labour shortages, and my favourite - oil and gas prices.
There is another side to the whole profit thing too. Some builders are "financed" by the banks and they need to maintain a minimum % of profit in order to for the bank to keep dealing with them. Don't make the % cash flow is cutoff. The more the builder makes % wise the better for the bank. The other side is that some builders aren't financed, but need to make a certain percentage to maintain their overhead. It takes about 1-2 houses worth of profit to pay for one salary. So a builder with about 25 staff (small to medium sized builder) would need to sell at least 50 houses just to pay for staff. Then there's the other things like vehicles, office space, benefits packages, insurance, taxes, utilities, construction field supplies, equipment rentals, write offs (i.e. site theft, damage etc) that have to be taken into consideration.
I'm not saying that builder's aren't out to make profit, but on the same token builders also aren't going to take a loss and risk an employee's welfare.

[googe]

Originally posted by frostyda9
I've been pretty shocked by the greed of some of the builders out there :thumbsdow

I'm not naming names, but I have a feeling there may be a class action suit coming for at least one of them

name names. youre not doing anyone any favors by letting them get sucked in to the same thing! you could save someone a lot of time and money if you know of someone that there is a good reason to avoid. :)

[Foz]

From the media I've only heard of Carolina Homes and Jayman homes that pulled the 'price amendment' on their customers.

i.e. pay another $25K or we'll just give you your deposit back.

*edit* correction, it was Jayman homes.

[mwmhong]

Originally posted by Foz
From the media I've only heard of Carolina Homes and Jager homes that pulled the 'price amendment' on their customers.

i.e. pay another $25K or we'll just give you your deposit back.

Add Jayman homes to that list. They took their sweet time handling some paperwork that was already submitted to them and the vics had to pay more.

Then there is AlanRidge Homes that didn't want to absorb the rising building costs and just closed shop and left some family hanging with a half-built home, which would cost an additional 50K to complete. :bullshit:

[frostyda9]

Originally posted by frozenrice
It's the trades that are driving this whole price escalation thing.

You and I are on polar opposite ends of that situation vocationally, I find that interesting :devil:

Trades aren't driving it. Greed is driving it ;) I could see a few thousand dollars per house, but come on man....20,30,40,000 dollars? That's more than unexpected expenditures and inflationary building material/labour prices, and it's sure more than oil and gas prices.

That's just my $.02 Mike, I am humble enough to admit you would know more about the inner workings of the builders than I.


googe - I can't say. This is a VERY public forum.

All I will say is caveat emptor, read the fine print before you sign anything and know their policy regarding this.

[Foz]

Originally posted by mwmhong


Add Jayman homes to that list. They took their sweet time handling some paperwork that was already submitted to them and the vics had to pay more.

Then there is AlanRidge Homes that didn't want to absorb the rising building costs and just closed shop and left some family hanging with a half-built home, which would cost an additional 50K to complete. :bullshit:

Regarding to the paperwork. Which part of the paper work was it?

Is it after the Purchase Agreement once owners start their options/house colours, interior selections??

i.e. before signing the final blue prints to build?? or after signing the blue prints?

I heard once you sign and finalize the prints, then it goes to City hall for building approval

Just curious as to which paperwork process you can get shafted at.

[frozenrice]

Originally posted by frostyda9
You and I are on polar opposite ends of that situation vocationally, I find that interesting :devil:

Trades aren't driving it. Greed is driving it ;) I could see a few thousand dollars per house, but come on man....20,30,40,000 dollars? That's more than unexpected expenditures and inflationary building material/labour prices, and it's sure more than oil and gas prices.

That's just my $.02 Mike, I am humble enough to admit you would know more about the inner workings of the builders than I.


Here's just a few examples,
-framing crews alone have gone up an average of $3-4000
-concrete has gone up 20-25% = $600-1000/house
-lumber has been relatively stable, but sheet products such as OSB and plywood is volatile right now meaning a sheet of OSB or plywood was $13.00 a month or two ago is now at $20. So sheet products alone on a house has gone up about $1000
-Windows and siding have gone up due to the raw material shortages to produce vinyl 3-5% not to mention gas/energy to produce the product.
-Drywall due to the price of gas to manufacture it (they use massive natrual gas heaters the size of a 18 wheeler to dry/cure the boards).
-Anything made of metal (wiring, aluminum siding, rebar, nails) has gone up too due to all the metal being shipped overseas.

This is just a few things. Add those items above alone and you already are sitting at $5000 +/-. We are presented with price increase notications just about daily from almost everybody.
Yes I agree with some builders, there is greed involved, but for the most part the reality is those increases add up quickly. Keep in mind too, that the prices you quote above may also include some insurance for future/unexpected increases as well.

[izzoblitzo]

I believe this project had some issues. Not so much that they wanted more money from buyers, but there was something wrong with the site. I believe it had a low water table because of it's location, something about underground water that runs through that area.

I do believe they are trying to do more testing, and have a design that will help with it. They were having all kinds of issues, because the site is designated Heritage, so that was holding up their permits.

The Developer has sworn to go through with this project once the matters are resolved, but that's not going to say that the prices will be the same, so for investors of the inglewood project, that's a shame.

[jdmakkord]

Supply and demand... Housing prices have skyrocketed due to lack of vacant housing. There are NO free contractors around, try building a house yourself, and see if you can get it done in less than a year. Materials have shot up huge too, we built last year, our exterior walls are mainly concrete and rebar...both of which nearly doubled in price in the last 3 years thanks to all of the natural disasters in the states. It may seem like they are all after a huge profit, chances are the increases are only to make sure they dont lose money by completion.

[Mckenzie]

I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that Gateway Midtown is still a go at the price I paid. :thumbsup:

[izzoblitzo]

Is Gateway Midtown going where the Coffee Shop and Sukiyaki House is located on 10th?

[88CRX]

Originally posted by izzoblitzo
Is Gateway Midtown going where the Coffee Shop and Sukiyaki House is located on 10th?

10th and 4th..

[2.2vtec]

I hope the westgate project will be ok, the brava one. It wont be completed for 16-18 months.

[izzoblitzo]

Originally posted by 88CRX


10th and 4th... :nut:

I know the parking lot and the little mall got fenced up a little while ago for this project.. but I guess the Japanese restaurant and the music place is going too?? damn, I loved the all you can eat beef thing they had at Sukiyaki House.

Is Nigel one of your main Architects? I see him at the "Crystal Palace" (or so people call it) all the time.. hahahaha

He's one of your main app guys I guess?

Damn, from talking to him, you guys sound like your super busy with stuff.

Brava is complete pretty much.. Encore is up for sale now... Im sure before it's finished, the third tower will also get marketed. It's a good location.. but it's difficult to walk to work from there... you have to really make it out of your way to walk/bike downtown... because you cant do that down bowtrail.

[88CRX]

Originally posted by izzoblitzo
Is Nigel one of your main Architects? I see him at the "Crystal Palace" (or so people call it) all the time.. hahahaha

He's one of your main app guys I guess?

Nigel.... hmmm, maybe he's one of the new students or something, there's so many people coming and going I cant keep track of them lol.



Originally posted by izzoblitzo
Damn, from talking to him, you guys sound like your super busy with stuff.

Its nuts... we cant pump drawings out fast enough. But it sure makes the days go by fast and I'm learning tons!



Originally posted by izzoblitzo
Im sure before it's finished, the third tower will also get marketed.

Third tower eh... I would kill to have a place in those buildings!

[izzoblitzo]

Nigel is like, an English guy.. kinda short, glasses.. keeps to himself.. very quiet.

he's down there all the time.

I cant wait to see what kinda things Foster has planned for the Encana site.. that project looks HUGE!

[88CRX]

Originally posted by izzoblitzo
Nigel is like, an English guy.. kinda short, glasses.. keeps to himself.. very quiet.

he's down there all the time.

I cant wait to see what kinda things Foster has planned for the Encana site.. that project looks HUGE!

and the huge Beltline Co-op site :thumbsup:

[izzoblitzo]

Co-op site... hmm... isnt that the Balboa project? Keynote or something like that?

There's a project that has like, three towers of mixed use going in the beltline as well.. I cant remember which site exactly though.

[88CRX]

WOW! just wow!

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/6271/skylinerender2we8ij.jpg

[izzoblitzo]

Yeah, rumor has it that Imperial Oil wants to build something bigger than the Encana...

FCC2 might be a possibility too, as the foundations are in place.

We'll have a really nice skyline in time, that's for sure... Just look at all the stuff Cadillac Fairview and Bentall has on the drawing board.. one project I dont see going up is the Paliser project (Calgary Tower) though.

[88CRX]

Originally posted by izzoblitzo
Co-op site... hmm... isnt that the Balboa project? Keynote or something like that?

There's a project that has like, three towers of mixed use going in the beltline as well.. I cant remember which site exactly though.

nope, this one...

http://www3.telus.net/doubrown/Beltline.jpg

[izzoblitzo]

yeah! that's the one.. isnt that made by? I think that one is called the district or exchange or something like that?

Keynote is by Gibbs.. it's nasty.

[88CRX]

Originally posted by izzoblitzo
yeah! that's the one.. isnt that made by ? I think that one is called the district or exchange or something like that?

Keynote is by Gibbs.. it's nasty.

I really dont know that much about it lol... there was an article in the paper a few weeks back.

[Oz-]

Regarding the water table issue with Apex, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a bullshit excuse. Apex is shady as hell.

The Renaissance condo towers are an example...sold a specific sq footage on their contracts. City hall has a totally different sq footage on their records. Not talking anything like few sq ft, but on some of them sold 1900 sq ft but actually 1700ish. Some sort of lawsuit regarding this issue is going down.

We shall wait to see.

Another issue I heard about is the POV condo's downtown that have settlement issues, the whole tower is leaning. Guess we don't have to go to Italy to see a leaning tower now.