Everbody loves GM ..., right ?

[Alpine Autowerks]

http://www.autoserviceworld.com/issues/isarticle.asp?id=55131&issue=04242006&link_targ=DailyNews&link_source=aypr_ASW&btac=no

[Orbie]

Yikes, I guess the bright side is a new contract with Tower Automotive could pull them out of Bankruptcy :dunno:

[snowcatxx87]

^ True, but would GM want to make a move with a copmany that cannot run its own business?

[Graham_A_M]

I dont think that GM is anywhere near bankruptcy, I know it sounds like a "fools hope" but their really starting to get their shit together little by little. I think the Saturn Sky, New Saab supercar concept and the C6 ZO6 shows that their making a HUGE turn-around. ITs ridiculous though: people in the factories are getting paid $37/hr to do what a kid can do for $10/hr. Its things like that and disasterous Unions that are creating a disaster for the company.

Meh, Saturn Sky's/Solstices' are backordered two years so I'll be buying a US one on ebay shortly. :nut:
Oh well, it'll be worth it.

[Xtrema]

GM is still ok. At least they still have hits.

Ford on the other hand, all new products failed miserably (except Mustang) and is the one really in trouble.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Graham_A_M
I dont think that GM is anywhere near bankruptcy, I know it sounds like a "fools hope" but their really starting to get their shit together little by little. I think the Saturn Sky, New Saab supercar concept and the C6 ZO6 shows that their making a HUGE turn-around. ITs ridiculous though: people in the factories are getting paid $37/hr to do what a kid can do for $10/hr. Its things like that and disasterous Unions that are creating a disaster for the company.



Dodge pays the same wages, but it's making profit.

You can say how good one vehicle is doing (the Sky), but then on the other end of the spectrum, the HHR. Who in their right mind blows all the money into developing a vehicle that was a fad hit for dodge 4 years ago?

GMC is closer to bankruptcy than you think, they have some hits yes, but are making more than enough bad decisions to overpower them.

[benyl]

The wages aren't the entire equation. GM is the second biggest Healthcare provider in the US next to the US government. Their pension obligations are also huge. It is their old employees that are killing them. It isn't just the current ones.

[01RedDX]

.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


Surprised they're still around. The only successful subsidiary of Ford is Mazda :nut:

F150 saved its ass... but for how much longer?

Also Volvo is still doing good business. And worse come to worse, they can sell off Ashton and Jaguar.

[z06power]

GM is making good products nowadays - hits like the solstice,sky, z06, etc. will help them get back to profitability.

[EnRich]

Originally posted by Xtrema


F150 saved its ass... but for how much longer?

Also Volvo is still doing good business. And worse come to worse, they can sell off Ashton and Jaguar.


What are you talking about? The new model F150 sales are down .9%...

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by EnRich



What are you talking about? The new model F150 sales are down .9%...

You know Ford sells about 700K F150 a year right?

That's like all the Accord and Camry combined. Even the trend is that it's going down, this is what keeping Ford afloat.

[benyl]

Originally posted by z06power
GM is making good products nowadays - hits like the solstice,sky, z06, etc. will help them get back to profitability.

once the initial orders are met, I doubt that these cars will continue to be big sellers. They are all niche cars.

The Chrysler 300 on the other hand is popular to a WIDE range of buyers. GM needs a Chrysler 300. Problem is that when they come out with it, all their potential customers will have already bought the 300.

GM is too slow to react. It is way too big and has sat on its laurels way too long. They need a serious shake up.

[Alpine Autowerks]

Originally posted by z06power
GM is making good products nowadays - hits like the solstice,sky, z06, etc. will help them get back to profitability.


A behemoth like GM cannot survive on the success of a few niche cars ...they need a home run in the mid size market

[bspot]

Originally posted by Alpine Autowerks



A behemoth like GM cannot survive on the success of a few niche cars ...they need a home run in the mid size market

:werd:

Ford had their Taurus, GM has had...? (I'll never understand why the Taurus sold so damn well)

Malibu, Grand Am, Alero, Impala, celebrity, cutlas, century... I could keep going. Nothing better than mediocre mid size offerings. The Cobalt has been selling decently, but is still a dissapointment compared to the hype/promises. Its frustrating to watch really.

[benyl]

The Lumina did quite well back in the day, but nothing compared to the Taurus. The Taurus did so well because of its "futuristic" styling. Don't you remember? they used them as cop cars in the first Robocop movie. that is how futuristic they were... haha

The problem with the cobalt is not how good or bad it is, but how bad the J-body cars were. Most of the market has gone elsewhere and will need a lot of convincing to come back.

The cobalt and the G6 are the most recent duds from GM. too bad really cause they hype they had were pretty exciting.

[bspot]

Originally posted by benyl

The problem with the cobalt is not how good or bad it is, but how bad the J-body cars were. Most of the market has gone elsewhere and will need a lot of convincing to come back.


The Lumina!! Thats the one I could picture but couldn't remember the name. Remember the Euro edition? :rofl:

Agreed on the j-body thing. I'm of the opinion that GM or Hyundai could produce an very well built car right now and it still wouldn't sell at near the same price as its Honda or Toyota counterparts because they have years of work to prove that they have moved past their former pieces of crap.

[Unknown303]

I would agree on the j-bodies being a slack car, but the cobalt isn't based on the j-body frame. cobolts were designed from the ground up not off an existing frame. correct me if i am wrong however i just thought that was what i read.

[benyl]

you are correct, but the average consumer doesn't know that. They only know that the cobalt and the pursuit are the replacements for the cavalier and sunfire/sunbird

[heavyD]

Originally posted by benyl
you are correct, but the average consumer doesn't know that. They only know that the cobalt and the pursuit are the replacements for the cavalier and sunfire/sunbird

I actually like the looks of the Pursuit better than the Cobalt. I believe the Pursuit will soon be sold in the US next year. Hopefully Pontiac makes an supercharged or turbocharged version of the Pursuit.

As far as Ford goes, they have been basically staying afloat for years based on truck sales as their cars have become so anemic that most people couldn't even name a current Ford car outside of the Mustang.

The problem with the Big three is that they really abandoned their efforts on cars in the mid 90's & early 2000's and fucused mainly on trucks & SUV's. Chrysler was more proactive with hits like the 300 & now the new Caliber and is probably in its best position in decades. Now that gas prices are higher and people are looking for more fuel efficient cars & Ford & GM are behind the 8-ball playing catchup. I think GM has a better chance of pulling out as they still do sell cars while Ford has alot of work to do to regain some car brand awareness.

[bspot]

Originally posted by heavyD


I actually like the looks of the Pursuit better than the Cobalt. I believe the Pursuit will soon be sold in the US next year. Hopefully Pontiac makes an supercharged or turbocharged version of the Pursuit.

I believe the Pursuit is already out in the US, or out very soon as the G5 Pursuit. The "G5" part was added specifically for its introduction to the US market I think.

So far only the 2.4L VVT engine is being offered in the GT version. No 2.0 turbo or S/C. If they were smart they'd consider dropping the setup from the Solstice GXP/Sky Redline in a FWD configuration into these cars to compete with the Caliber SRT-4.

[benyl]

Weird that we get a car before the US market does. Pontiac has no entry level car right now (I checked gm.com).

I don't get why GM is diluting it's badges. I saw a Cobalt SS yesterday... and well it wasn't supercharged. WTF is the point? Body kit? They shouldn't have badged it SS. That is like BMW putting an M badge on a non M car. Rice from the factory.

[QuasarCav]

Originally posted by benyl
Weird that we get a car before the US market does. Pontiac has no entry level car right now (I checked gm.com).

I don't get why GM is diluting it's badges. I saw a Cobalt SS yesterday... and well it wasn't supercharged. WTF is the point? Body kit? They shouldn't have badged it SS. That is like BMW putting an M badge on a non M car. Rice from the factory.


Like a 540 M sport?

There is a SS which is the 170hp Variable valve timing vs. the 150hp base Ecotec. When they were pushing the SC/SS they always introduced it as a SS Supercharged.

[benyl]

Originally posted by QuasarCav

Like a 540 M sport?


There is no M badging on the outside. It just says 540i.

If you see M540i, that was either the dealer or owner that put that shit on. I drive an M wannabe car all the time. It has an M on the steering wheel, on the wheels, but it is all very low key. From the outside, you can tell it isn't an M car.

The Cobalt SS is very hard to distinguish. Samd wheels, same body kit. Only difference is the lack of supercharger whine.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by QuasarCav



Like a 540 M sport?

There is a SS which is the 170hp Variable valve timing vs. the 150hp base Ecotec. When they were pushing the SC/SS they always introduced it as a SS Supercharged.

Calling the lesser cars SS is gay. It's like Honda giving regular Civic's Type R designation or Dodge giving a regular caliber SRT designation. Is the 'SS' a performance designation or not?

[benyl]

SS = SuperSport

[QuasarCav]

Originally posted by heavyD


Calling the lesser cars SS is gay. It's like Honda giving regular Civic's Type R designation or Dodge giving a regular caliber SRT designation. Is the 'SS' a performance designation or not?


But it does work, The average consumer could care less if the vehicle has a blower. At least it's not a Z24.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by benyl
Weird that we get a car before the US market does. Pontiac has no entry level car right now (I checked gm.com).

I don't get why GM is diluting it's badges. I saw a Cobalt SS yesterday... and well it wasn't supercharged. WTF is the point? Body kit? They shouldn't have badged it SS. That is like BMW putting an M badge on a non M car. Rice from the factory.

This is like Honda Si sedan of the last generation.

Si = 127HP, 12 more than standard EX.

So it's all badges.

BTW, 50% car sold in Canada is compact or sub compact. It's more urgent to relase these cars here than US where mid-size rules.

And what's the point calling it G5 Pursuit? Why don't they just call it G5 and drop the Pursuit all together? It's not like it's a well established name anyway.

[Nissanaddict]

Yes. The SS comes with the 2.4 VVT engine. I know the SC version has a different spoiler....not sure about the wheels, they MAY be different. Here's where I think GM horribly chokes. Plain stupidity. They don't look at what the competition has, and people expect in cars. I was recently test driving entry level cars. I drove only 3, but got a good idea of where things stand. The new Civic, and the Mazda 3 are excellent. The Pursuit is a miss. Now I also prefer the Pursuit to the Cobalt which is why I tried it. The biggest problems? The shifter feels like it's in molasses until you go into a gear, at which point it feels like it's crushing a cracker. It's terrible. Not to mention this car does not come with a telescoping steering wheel (while both of the imports I drove come with it, even in the least equipped trim). So I sit down, pedals feel fine as does the position of the shifter....then the wheel's too far....move closer. Shifter's back a tad too far, and when I let go of the clutch, I have to stop and think to not hit my knee into the plastic under the steering column. And the 2.2 ecotec? I found it very dead feeling....I mean it feels like it has power, but it feels more truck-ish than a KA24. But since GM is trying (not quite making it, but trying) I'd like to see them pull back up. Dodge on the other hand....I think the Caliber being their smallest car is ridiculous. It looks like a slightly trimmed large refrigerator with half the front fenders and the entire front of a truck. I really like how they dub the V8 sound on the commercials. :rofl: disappointment for people who want the affordable penis extension.

[CappyMcSlappy]

Wait wait wait..Hold up here. Did you guys know that adding the Si/Spec V or Type-R badge AUTOMATICALLY increases horsepower by 30 percent?

Man I thought ya'll where car guys?

:rofl:

Yeah, I'm curious to see exactly how many of the G5's they think they're going to sell down here in the States. I hope they don't set their goals too high....it'll just make it more painful.

[bspot]

Just for clarity (I don't know what the hell GM was thinking on this one... retarded to have two SS's):

Cobalt SS:

2.4L 170hp NA with VVT
17" Polished wheels
Same front as an SS/SC, but with black plastic in the 'mouth'
Getrag transmission... not SS/SC transmission
Different suspension
Different back end (no body colour rear lip like the SS/SC)
No monster rice wing
Cloth seats available
Available in a 4-door

Cobalt SS/SC:

2.0L 205hp SC
18" Gunmetalish wheels
Full lip kit
Saab 9-3 transmission (Still not wonderful, but thank GOD it feels better than the base model)
Lower stiffer suspension, bigger sway bars and all that
Mandatory leather (which is really shit quality)
Available Recaro seats and LSD (not available in my model year in Canada :banghead: )
Monster rice wing
coupe only

Not really much in common at all...

They should have made it the "RS" or something like that. Or made the other one the "SSS" SUPER SUPER SPORT! :rofl:

[95EagleAWD]

GM needs a nice big RWD V8 sedan.... two years ago.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD
GM needs a nice big RWD V8 sedan.... two years ago.

Toyota and Honda do fine without them. And 300 got it because of hand me down. There isn't any really enginneering done to that car.

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by Xtrema


Toyota and Honda do fine without them. And 300 got it because of hand me down. There isn't any really enginneering done to that car.

Toyota and Honda also build good cars. GM does not.

The 300 wins because it is exactly what the public has wanted forever, but had to make due with trucks and SUVs since nobody built it.

[Graham_A_M]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD
Toyota and Honda also build good cars. GM does not.

I think thats all a matter of preference. I know a few people that avoid Honda like the plague. But thats their choice. :dunno:
I think if a person were to come into the automotive market, blind of any past experiences/ pre-conceptions with Honda, GM, or Toyota; they wouldn't have any preference at all.

I know GM made horse shit for the longest time, but their making good cars now, however people still have that "GM = Horseshit" perspective on things, and thats whats hurting them. Most people remember the 1980's-early 1990's when Gm was creating REAL winners like the Fiero and Lumina along with the first Saturns out there, unfortunately people dont really give a second chance, so to those hardcore GM fans that ended up with a 1984 Fiero or a 1992-95 Saturn: Their still REALLY bitter about GM entirely, and wont go back at all.
Honda and Toyota do have a good rep, and always had. So people turn a blind eye to when they produce the odd lemon or have a problematic car. My mom is still a "Honda fan" despite the fact her 2002 CRV is a lemon, and has many "issues" and "quirks" to it. But as we all know: enough is enough, and reputations are tarnished over time when this happens continually with many models and features. Hense the pre-conceptions of GM today.

[Mosquito_R]

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD
GM needs a nice big RWD V8 sedan.... two years ago.

Not too late to play catch-up... just get GM to build the Holden Commodore here instead of home-grown products like the Impala. It's got decent styling, and a big V8 too. However, I don't see this idea ever flying in Detroit.

[Steve-O 00]

F150 saved its ass... but for how much longer?


YA ITS ONLY BEEN THE LEADING SELLING PICK FOR HOW MANY YEARS LIKE 25 OR SOMETHING CRAZY LIKE THAT

I ALSO READ SOMEWERE THAT EVERY CAR GM BUILDS COSTS THEM 1500 HUNDRED BEFORE IT EVEN SELLS IN EXTRA UNION COSTS AND SUCH:drama:

[Unknown303]

I really want to see GM make it. As for this SS and the SS/SC i really don't see why everyone is so conserned about this. It actually gives you two different engine options to build off of. So depending on what kind of crap you want to do you can start off a little cheaper and work on building it up or you can go straight to a SC and then upgrade to a stage two or something like that.

They should definately introduce a SC version of the G5 Persuit so we have a few more options to choose from. Although i prefer the Cobalt, everyones entitled to there opinion.

[benyl]

Originally posted by Unknown303
I really want to see GM make it. As for this SS and the SS/SC i really don't see why everyone is so conserned about this. It actually gives you two different engine options to build off of. So depending on what kind of crap you want to do you can start off a little cheaper and work on building it up or you can go straight to a SC and then upgrade to a stage two or something like that.


The SS for GM is like AMG is to MB, or M is to BMW.

Sure, you can get the AMG, or M body kit (with slight differences), but you cannot get the M or AMG badge without the engine.

Why would they dilute the SS badge?

[frostyda9]

Originally posted by benyl
Why would they dilute the SS badge?

For marketing reasons, as Quasar mentioned. This is just me theorizing, but I'd imagine the non-SC SS is cheaper and thus GM can advertise the SS at a lower MSRP. When the prospective buyer gets to the showroom, they will realize the SC car is more money. However, GM still got them into the dealership, which their perogative has to be at this point. That would be a bit of a desperate ploy, but I don't put it beyond them considering current conditions.

I would consider myself better informed than the average consumer on cars, along with most of the members here, but until I read this thread I had always assumed the SS Cobalt indicated the FI car.

It's sad to see that the SS badge doesn't imply top-level performance models only, as it once did :thumbsdow
The mid level Cobalt should not be the SS, IMO. Using GM monikers, I believe the correct way would have been to tag the base model the plain Cobalt, the next model up the RS, and the SC'd model the SS.

[Unknown303]

Originally posted by frostyda9


For marketing reasons, as Quasar mentioned. This is just me theorizing, but I'd imagine the non-SC SS is cheaper and thus GM can advertise the SS at a lower MSRP. When the prospective buyer gets to the showroom, they will realize the SC car is more money. However, GM still got them into the dealership, which their perogative has to be at this point. That would be a bit of a desperate ploy, but I don't put it beyond them considering current conditions.

I would consider myself better informed than the average consumer on cars, along with most of the members here, but until I read this thread I had always assumed the SS Cobalt indicated the FI car.

It's sad to see that the SS badge doesn't imply top-level performance models only, as it once did :thumbsdow
The mid level Cobalt should not be the SS, IMO. Using GM monikers, I believe the correct way would have been to tag the base model the plain Cobalt, the next model up the RS, and the SC'd model the SS.

I'm going to flip flop my stance and say that i agree with this. If they just badge the NA SS with a lesser badge like RS then the SS could maintain its legendary status with the FI engine and all those goodies. But at the same time then, should they have different rim options between the SS and SS/SC.

[T78Supra1]

Ford will never go under.....people don't realize how much ford owns....

Ford owns:
Mazda
LandRover
Volvo
Jaguar
Holden (Australia)
Ford Europa
A substantial part of Subaru
Lincon
Mercury
and several Semi truck and Commercial Companies


Ford is a power house in the Automotive world

As for the Americal companies losing money...and the Japanese companies doing well. This is something FOrd and GM did to them selves.... Buying a Honda in Canada is not much more then buying a Ford, However in Japan a base line mustang sells for 60,000 USD. We allow them to sell there cars here with very little tax or tarrifs.

On the other hand i am gratefull, i love my imports.

As For GM they will never disapear... a company that size will either just sell off pieces many GM Companies are still doing well in sales:
Such as Cadilac and Hummer

[Alpine Autowerks]

holden and suby are GM concerns... the rest of those (esp. the english crap) are cash sinkholes that will take as long as Lincoln to turn a profit.


hint ~40years

[Milk2%]

Originally posted by Alpine Autowerks
holden and suby are GM concerns... the rest of those (esp. the english crap) are cash sinkholes that will take as long as Lincoln to turn a profit.

hint ~40years

I dunno about holden, but i know gm sold all of there subaru shares to toyota

And HINT HINT lincoln is actually doing pretty well for there size.


Hint not 40 years ago

[Alpine Autowerks]

Originally posted by Milk2%


I dunno about holden, but i know gm sold all of there subaru shares to toyota

And HINT HINT lincoln is actually doing pretty well for there size.

Hint not 40 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden


ford bought Lincoln in 1922 they did not turn a profit till 1962
sounds like ...about ....say.... 40 years. Why does Ford not report Lincoln <earnings> in reports ??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru

GM had 20% sold 8.7% to Toyo ...20 minus 8.7 = not Ford

[Milk2%]

i was unsure about how much toyota bought of suby, also lincon i thought you meant present, they do pretty good selling limos/funeral cars etc...

Also ford will never go under ford is a big contender in wrc...and we all know how big wrc is in europe :D

[Alpine Autowerks]

WRC????

racing is another bottomless pit for cash with no verifiable proof it helps sales.