Drawing the line on selling yourself short.

[Ben]

So one of my latest projects I've been working on for a Large Upscale hotel downtown requires my photograph printed and framed in large print size for each of their rooms. This is a very popular photo of mine (which I have sold the most of) and they would like printing rights of 100 images, but at a flat rate for the digital file. The quandry I posess is this. The price they're willing to pay for the image is rediculous. This would be something I would normally do for around $100 per print when in this quantity, and the commercial benefit they will recieve from it. What they are offering is substantialy less with no room for negotiation.

I have pretty much made up my mind on what I'm going to do for this, however am interested in others thoughts. Do you take a loss (I'm not losing money on the work, it's just earning a LOT less than what it should be) but gain the exposure (I'm not hurting for work) and résumé addition of a large client, or do you tell them thanks but no thanks, because you ultimatly feel your work is worth more, and your pride is not that it's printed anywhere or everywhere no matter what your gain, but that you earn what you should?

Interested in your thoughts.

[KoukiS14]

You know where i stand :thumbsdow

[lint]

If you give them the digital file, what's your guarantee that they won't make more than 100 prints? I wouldn't want to be the one running around trying to count them all. I would think that is the biggest dilema.

My thoughts would be if they want 100 prints, charge them for 100 prints. If they want the digital file, then either charge what you think is worth, or maybe try to come to a licensing agreement.

Exposure and resume are difficult to balance with value. The slippery slope argument is that if it gets out that you provided great work at rock bottom prices, everyone else that comes to you will use that price as the benchmark. Which means any work you get out of it will not have the impact on your wallet that you're looking for.

[doanashk]

Here's what I think:

I think if you are not hurting for work and you don't need the money, you need to evaluate what your work means to you.

Artists gain respect and client bases depending on how they view their own work in addition to the quality. If this hotel is willing to place your picture in almost every room, they obviously feel your picture is of merit. It is just plain business to buy low, if there is no negotiation and you feel you are being disrespected then walk away. Especially if you are passionate about your craft.

You don't need them, they want to use your work and not the other way around. Believe in the quality of your workmanship.

Ultimately however, it is up to you.

Good luck ;)

[Canadian 2.5RS]

wow thats a tough one. If you think that the recognition and bonus resume points outweighs your pride then i say go for it. Youre not making money if youre not selling anything. :dunno:

Is anyone else liable to know the specifics of the transaction? If not then i dont see how it would hurt you to sell your photo for the recognition and not the money. It cant hurt your pride if nobody ever knows.

Look at it this way, you are selling the photos for the recognition and not the money. Hey, you aren't "hurting for work" so is the money the big issue? You've got money coming in but a stage as large as this doesn't come by everyday ( at least i dont think so but im not in your position) but money comes and goes.

Those are my thoughts. I hope they help you make your decision.

[l8braker]

Free exposure, man. Take the hit. Your young and you never know who might see that print and come knocking.

[Thaco]

don't sell yourself short, word will get around and you'll have everybody trying to jew you down, especially if you don't need the exposure.

The only way you should do it is if they sign a confidentiality form sayign they won't discuss the transaction details with other potential clients.

[Ben]

Originally posted by lint
If you give them the digital file, what's your guarantee that they won't make more than 100 prints? I wouldn't want to be the one running around trying to count them all. I would think that is the biggest dilema.

My thoughts would be if they want 100 prints, charge them for 100 prints. If they want the digital file, then either charge what you think is worth, or maybe try to come to a licensing agreement.

Exposure and resume are difficult to balance with value. The slippery slope argument is that if it gets out that you provided great work at rock bottom prices, everyone else that comes to you will use that price as the benchmark. Which means any work you get out of it will not have the impact on your wallet that you're looking for.

Well of course I have contracts and licence agreements drawn up, signing off on quantity and timeframes, but in the digital industry, it's one of those things you have to take their word for. They break the terms, bad news for them.

What I dont want to be doing is the exact thing you are commenting on in the latter half of your last paragraph. I dont want to be offering professional work at rock bottom sub basement, inner mantle prices. It dilutes the market and lowers the value of EVERYONES work. Digital photography has already done this, and the affordability of good quality equipment.

As I mentioned, I've already made up my mind, and will be formulating a final counter/counter/counter offer.


Thanks for the great insight thus far, this will be a beneficial thread for those in this situation to come.

[benyl]

Originally posted by Thaco
word will get around and you'll have everybody trying to jew you down

People still use this derogatory expression? You need to spice up your vocabulary.

[Thaco]

Originally posted by benyl


People still use this derogatory expression? You need to spice up your vocabulary. every thread i see you post in you're always tryign to start a flame war... don't you have anything better to do>?

[D'z Nutz]

Depending on how much they're offering on the prints, yay on the prints, but nay on the digital file.

If this is an upscale hotel, they're not hurting for cash, so why should they try to short change you? Just like you said, it cheapens the value for everyone. If they know they can get cheap work from you, what's the stop them from doing it again? Don't get me wrong, it's not about the money in terms of dollars, but the value of the work. Let them know if they want more prints in the future, they'll have your contact information and can order more to which you'll work out a better price. Otherwise point them towards the nearest Walmart.

[Kirbs17]

or do you tell them thanks but no thanks, because you ultimatly feel your work is worth more, and your pride is not that it's printed anywhere or everywhere no matter what your gain, but that you earn what you should?

[TurboMedic]

As I think was mentioned somewhere above, if they want 100 prints, make a deal on the prints.....if they want the digital file, they seem like they want to do more with it? Sell the prints at their price, get that exposure, tell them more $$$ for the digital file

[Fuji]

Originally posted by Thaco
every thread i see you post in you're always tryign to start a flame war... don't you have anything better to do>?

hahahah well he has a point. Is using the word "jew" is not derogatory? It's a racist term. Go say it to a Jewish person and see if he doesnt do anything

[topmade]

I have no knowledge of digital imaging, but I don't think you are selling yourself short for the chance to get free advertising. The price you sell to one customer won't affect what you charge to other customers as there are different contractual agreements depending on their business. It is not rare that prices raise as your business gets more exposure. If they really think your work is worth the money, your clients will come to you.

For this case, it just seems like they want to get the cheapest deal around and they really don't know the value of art. And for the digital file I think that is just a bad idea being in the computer industry.

Good luck.

[JTI]

I say no. Tell them that's not how it works in our industry. Don't sell yourself short, otherwise you are selling us short as well. I know it's a tough decision and it's ultimately up to you. But that's where I would stand. If they really like your work, they should pay for it. We're not selling used cars here, we are selling talent.

[RickDaTuner]

Originally posted by Thaco
word will get around and you'll have everybody trying to jew you down



Originally posted by benyl


People still use this derogatory expression? You need to spice up your vocabulary.



Originally posted by Fuji


hahahah well he has a point. Is using the word "jew" is not derogatory? It's a racist term. Go say it to a Jewish person and see if he doesnt do anything


Whats worse is that the term is being used in the Wrong context, or in non congruent syntax...

for the sake of informing you, to be Jewd' means to be eradicated, to be erased...

Thaco FTL on this one... haha we all have our days.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by RickDaTuner

Whats worse is that the term is being used in the Wrong context, or in non congruent syntax...

for the sake of informing you, to be Jewd' means to be eradicated, to be erased...

Thaco FTL on this one... haha we all have our days.

Eh? The only way I have ever heard "Jewed" being used is to describe a situation where someone has been ripped off, usually concerning money. Never heard the eradication one before. :dunno:

[RickDaTuner]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat


Eh? The only way I have ever heard "Jewed" being used is to describe a situation where someone has been ripped off, usually concerning money. Never heard the eradication one before. :dunno:

that term would be Gypped as in Gypsies they are ones who do the ripping off

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Nah, I've heard Gypped many a time as well.

Well, silly discussion anyhow. Back on topic...

[kaput]

.

[Ben]

Thanks for clogging my thread with the racist garble, I'll be cleaning that up shortly.

As for the topic at hand, ItS more of an educational thread than anything, really interested in peoples opinions.

I'll be communicating with the company tomorrow to lay out some options, but I'm certainly not going to be taken advantage of.

Thanks a lot for the discussion, keep it coming.

Cheers!

[RickDaTuner]

Originally posted by Ben
Thanks for clogging my thread with the racist garble, I'll be cleaning that up shortly.

As for the topic at hand, ItS more of an educational thread than anything, really interested in peoples opinions.

I'll be communicating with the company tomorrow to lay out some options, but I'm certainly not going to be taken advantage of.

Thanks a lot for the discussion, keep it coming.

Cheers!
sorry dood

In short though, i feel that you need to keep your bottom line, Unless something has happened that has blemished your name as a photographer than stick with what you know you're worth. this company is taking advantage of you, based on the fact that your a budding photographer, with assumed little experience.

[kaput]

.

[ZorroAMG]

Don't whore out your work Ben. Give em 100 prints for a set price and take it or leave it. Tell them to shop on veer or getty if they want shitty stock photos to hang on their walls.

As for the racist term being thrown about, in 1981 it was an acceptable way of saying someone low-balled someone else....in 2006 it's called....well...lowballing. Racist fuck.

[atomic]

just do it . and go take more pictures . it's what u love .

soon as you justify a defined price on your artistic talent .. it is no longer an artistic talent.. but a business.

don't loose what you love

[snowcatxx87]

Originally posted by Fuji


hahahah well he has a point. Is using the word "jew" is not derogatory? It's a racist term. Go say it to a Jewish person and see if he doesnt do anything

do it all the time :dunno:

[Mazstyle]

Can we see the pic at least!?

[clem24]

The problem with giving out "negatives" to the customer is that you no longer have control over how it is being used. That should be your main concern.

If they print it badly, and your name is attached to it, guess what? It now has the opposite of what you want to do. Most are unwilling to give out negatives because of this fact.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by ZorroAMG
Don't whore out your work Ben. Give em 100 prints for a set price and take it or leave it. Tell them to shop on veer or getty if they want shitty stock photos to hang on their walls.

:werd:

You and I had beers over this Ben. If they are trying to lowball you, you walk away. Not only are you selling yourself short (and REALLY short in this case) but you are also cheapening the entire industry. If everyone starts selling out just to make a couple of bucks for a couple flats of beer it shows that there is enough liquidity in the industry to make the case to lowball all photographers.

My wife is currently dealing with where to price her architectural photography business. If she is too low the industry gets upset with her, she will always be known as the "inexpensive one" and she will anger other photographers for constantly undercutting them. If she goes too high she potentially loses business. Our suggestion was to stick to your guns. You know what you sell one print for... so giving them a "volume discount" isnt a bad idea. However selling your print for less than stock photography prices is worth laughing in the faces about. Do you really want that image on the open market worth only a few bucks?

Walk away. Good karma will follow.

Good luck.

[blue Zed]

(a very very random thought) What do they serve in the morning for breakfast "fillet magnots"(inside joke with ben)or two eggs and ham speical for $1.99.
I can understand a buisness trying to get the best deal.But this is an upscale hotel that serve a certain clientele that expects a level of refinement ,where your art (fillet magnots) can enhance the experience of the clientele staying at there establishment . if they got a poster (two eggs and ham)that can be bought at any store,would it give you an impression of a upscale hotel?.
I think not IMO,Its a credit to you that they recognize the quality and uniqueness of your work or they would not have asked for the rights of the pictures. Be firm on your price.

[R-Audi]

Originally posted by Thaco
don't sell yourself short, word will get around and you'll have everybody trying to jew you down, especially if you don't need the exposure.

I can't believe people are still this FVCKING Ignorant..

Ben, I think at this stage of your career, having a major hotel chain on your resume is worth way more then being paid less. I dont expect you to say exact dollar amounts, but roughly what % is the offered price?
If you aren't hurtng for money.. I say do it.. building your resume will allow you to charge more later on...