Lets talk natives!

[Toms-SC]

Brawling, vandalism scuttle talks in Caledonia
Last Updated Tue, 23 May 2006 08:59:18 EDT
CBC News

The southern Ontario town of Caledonia awoke to no power and much uncertainty Tuesday, a day after a standoff between aboriginal protesters and non-native residents exploded in violence.
Clashes between aboriginal protesters and non-native residents of Caledonia dashed hopes that a longstanding land-claim dispute was near a resolution. (CBC)

* INDEPTH: Caledonia land claim dispute

By early morning, about a dozen non-native protesters from Caledonia were milling around the site of an aboriginal blockade on Highway 6. About 300 metres down the road, 50 native protesters had gathered behind a toppled electrical transmission tower.

Situated between them were three Ontario Provincial Police cruisers and about a dozen officers.

* FROM MAY 22, 2006: Tensions flare as Caledonia standoff continues

Talks – which had been planned for Tuesday amid hopes the longstanding land-claim dispute was about to be resolved – were not expected to resume.

Schools close, affecting 41,000 children

Municipal officials in Haldimand County declared an official state of emergency late Monday night after vandalism at a local transformer cut power from much of the community.

Hydro officials said restoring electricity could take days.

Schools have been closed on Tuesday, making for an extended long weekend for 41,000 children.

Brawl scuttles goodwill gesture

The calm that settled over the town after darkness fell was a stark contrast to the scene during the daylight hours on Monday, when protesters and residents traded punches and insults.

OPP officers repeatedly separated the two sides during the day, and showed up in the evening in riot gear on Highway 6, the main road running through the southern Ontario town.

Former Ontario premier David Peterson, who was appointed by the province at the end of April to help resolve the standoff, said the clash had "complicated the situation by a large measure."

When talks could resume is uncertain, he said, calling Monday's brawl a "heartbreaking" turn of events.

The native protesters had briefly dismantled their barricade Monday morning as a sign of goodwill after the province pledged to indefinitely halt development on a plot of disputed land.

The Six Nations community claims the land on which the subdivision was being built was illegally taken from them 200 years ago.

Six Nations given taste of own medicine: non-native protester

Hundreds of town residents turned up Monday and barred access to the site. The scene turned ugly when a van driven by a Six Nations protester tried to force its way through the locals, prompting a fist fight.

Several native and non-native demonstrators were injured in scuffles after natives blocked the highway with an electrical transmission tower and then used backhoes to tear a trench across the road in front of their blockade.

The non-native blockade began Friday night, as part of a weekly demonstration by members of the community frustrated about the barricade that has been in place for almost five weeks.

One non-native protester denied that residents had made the situation worse by coming out to face the natives.

"We're not provoking the situation," Jeff MacNeil told CBC News early Tuesday.

"We're just treating them the same way they're treating us — refusing them access to various things, like, 'We're not allowed over there? OK, you can't come over here.' "

Many First Nations watching dispute

Peterson told CBC Newsworld the Caledonia dispute is being watched by native groups across North America.

"Don't underestimate the significance," he said. "All of us were praying and working hard to ensure that something ugly didn't develop out of this, like an Oka or a Wounded Knee or something like that."

In a development that seemed to underline Peterson's concerns, members of First Nations in the North Battleford area of Saskatchewan set up a short-lived blockade of their own at a major highway near the community Monday afternoon.

Copyright ©2006 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation - All Rights Reserved

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/05/23/caledonia-monday.html?print

Thoughts?

[Xtrema]

Indians seems to be above the law.

[topmade]

No offence to every Indian, but most of them seem to think they got everything stolen from them. The past is full of pull and give situations and I think it's fair game who owns what now. It's not like your going to find any hard evidence 200 years ago that anything was really stolen from them other then some old books that their great grand parents wrote. But sadly, they will get something out of it because they are causing such a big fuss over it.

[ZEDGE]

Originally posted by Xtrema
Indians seems to be above the law.

That about sums it up.

Now here comes the bleeding heart brigade.. :drama:

[TrevorK]

Originally posted by Xtrema
Indians seems to be above the law.

I can't see how they aren't breaking the law?

The are blocking people access to what is rightfully theirs because they feel it is not.


That's great they don't think that the land is the developers, and that's why we have court. But nothing happens to them; because they're native. I can't think of a single ethnic group in Canada that has done the same.

[86max]

This is pathetic, as is almost every other issue dealing with Canada's natives. When will this country grow a back bone and tell them where to shove it.

[Khyron]

Build a fence with toll boths for leaving their reserves. They don't pay taxes, the highways, the McDonalds and everything else should be charged. I like the non-native protester's idea.

Wah I want my old ways reserve/land/whatever but I still want electricity, casinos, trucks, fast food, internet, etc.

I can't believe we still allow ourselves to have a welfare class of citizens. Treat them equal just like everyone else. If they want to live like huterites, so be it, but we don't need to pay for it.

Khyron

[kaput]

.

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by Khyron
Build a fence with toll boths for leaving their reserves. They don't pay taxes, the highways, the McDonalds and everything else should be charged. I like the non-native protester's idea.

Wah I want my old ways reserve/land/whatever but I still want electricity, casinos, trucks, fast food, internet, etc.

I can't believe we still allow ourselves to have a welfare class of citizens. Treat them equal just like everyone else. If they want to live like huterites, so be it, but we don't need to pay for it.

Khyron


Werd

I was born in Canada. I don't have any special rights or privys above any other Canadian.

[sputnik]

Most natives have no idea what it means to be native anymore. All they know is that they live on free land and get money from the government.

My friends neice is a teacher on a reserve in Peace River. She's white but all of the kids in her class are native. One day they were all at an assembly in the gym and they had a hoop dancer there. He was all dressed up and one of the kids pointed and shouted for his class to hear "Look! An INDIAN!"

[2002civic]

Originally posted by kaput
Don't even get me started on natives cause I will get banned.
:werd: :rofl:

[Lo)2enz0]

alright here is my input on the subject.

GET YOUR HEAD ON STRAIGHT!!!!!!


fuck, this is 2006, not 1906. we did not just come over here and steal everything from you and we have given everything to indians that they have asked for. they get to fish in our offseasons, they get to do this and that and they get money from the government cause they are native. like common, i have no sympathy for indians who sit on there ass and get drunk. and i respect that ones that work hard and get an education. but seriously, if they want what they are asking for they can go back to riding on horses and living in tee pee's if they want all the freedom and gimmes they are asking for.

and who gives a shit about the land, let the economy grow. more growth = more jobs, hint hint ???

like i said i totally respect natives that make an honest living, but when things like this happen it just makes me question them.

[5abi]

ripping up public property is just wrong, the police wont' arrest? vandalisim?

[Tech2]

I'll withold my comments about the present standoff for now because I don't have enough info on it besides to say that the situation is pretty complex. There are big time assholes in both the native and non-native groups that are determined to not get along.

A little off topic though, I remember some footage from a helicopter around a standoff in BC a while back. The film showed the RCMP shooting at some native guy who was shaving across the lake. They had the guy pined down behind a rock. Really not cool.

Watched that in a native studies course. It was an eye opener.

[l8braker]

The Government should authorize the use of JTF-2 and see if the Natives still want to play hardball then. :guns:

[Davide]

Originally posted by l8braker
The Government should authorize the use of JTF-2 and see if the Natives still want to play hardball then. :guns: yea I guess, but if this was the old days I'd be a hell of a lot more scared of the indians then the JTF-2 or navy seals for that matter.

but as posted before, natives don't know what a real native is these days:thumbsdow

[nismodrifter]

Originally posted by Davide


but as posted before, natives don't know what a real native is these days:thumbsdow

And WHOSE fault is that? :rolleyes:

[method]

the blatent racism on this site is absolutely apalling, especially considering the ethnic divirsity of beyond.ca

you people should be ashamed of your blatent ignorance on aboriginal issues, and the hateful filth you people spew.

you make me fucking sick.

[kaput]

.

[nismodrifter]

Originally posted by method
the blatent racism on this site is absolutely apalling, especially considering the ethnic divirsity of beyond.ca

you people should be ashamed of your blatent ignorance on aboriginal issues, and the hateful filth you people spew.

you make fucking sick.

:werd:

Most of the people who posted here are total fucking retards....

Kaput.. why dont you answer my question: who is to blame for our FIRST NATIONS not knowing what it really means to be a member of the first nations community in Canada? Go ahead genius.

FYI: First nations are not from India and thus they are not Indian. Are you people really that dense?

[5abi]

i second nismo, kaput u go on ne race related topic and just slander.... ur one of those...what r they called....?

[dub_c]

Yea, they all live a hard fucking life :rolleyes:

[benyl]

Originally posted by 5abi
i second nismo, kaput u go on ne race related topic and just slander.... ur one of those...what r they called....?

I don't see anything in this thread where kaput said anything against natives. He simply said he better not say anything. Many people have opinions and they are allowed to voice them. He didn't, so what is the problem?

[benyl]

Originally posted by nismodrifter

FYI: First nations are not from India and thus they are not Indian. Are you people really that dense?

Technically correct. But you don't exactly play Cowboys and Natives do you?

[method]

I'm not going to argue with a bunch of fucking racists.

Making revolting, bullshit statements like "Indians do this" or "Most Indians think" is reminiscent of nazi germany's "the jew wants you to think" or colonial america's "the negro is this"

are you people fucking serious? are you not aware of the blatent hatred you're spreading?

Sorry, but not every "Indian" is some beer-swilling, un-employed stereotype that some people seem to think they are.

The lack of respect for First Nations peoples in this province, let alone this country, is fucking apalling.

Before you go off with your racist rhetoric about how every poverty stricken Aboriginal is a free-loading dirtbag, why dont you think about what you're saying first?

[Davide]

Edit:^^^couldn't have said it better myself
Originally posted by kaput
Don't even get me started on natives cause I will get banned. I for one would like to hear what you got to say:poosie:

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by method
the blatent racism on this site is absolutely apalling, especially considering the ethnic divirsity of beyond.ca


Asians are the worst racist of them all. :rofl: (I feel the flames coming.....)

Anyway, First Nation should stop taking government handouts before they'll ever gain any respects. Their own government is way beyond corrupt. People are living in worst standards then people outside of reserve even they have all the money they can take. Each RI withdraws $50K out of the trust fund when they reach 18. They don't pay a cent of tax staying in reserve but enjoy all benefits of typical tax payer.

This is all on the premise that "we took their land". Boohoo, I'm sure First Nation is probably better off without the handouts so they can better integrate into our society. Probably will reduce all the negativities towards them too.

Welfare is only for the people to get out of a jam. Once you start getting comfortable with handouts, you're a useless human being and get no respect from me.

[2002civic]

well lets just say in lethbridge when you walk anywher ein the city you see a handful of natives stumbling down the street, getting arrested,sleeping on benches, throwing stuff at cars or worse:barf: , form my experience in lethbridge i have seen more stereotyipcal natives than non, if you want an example go to the mall and park across the street in lethbridge...

[dub_c]

:angel:

[2000_SI]

Originally posted by nismodrifter


And WHOSE fault is that? :rolleyes:
Your right, we should be held solely responsible for not spending more Tax Payers money so they can take classes and learn that thier people have a history here. :rolleyes: Even though the First Nations government takes money from its people any way it can, and then "fights" for "equal rights" for its people because we "stole" thier land after a war they lost and now thier living conditions are poor and they need subsidies. Your right, its all our fault.

Sure, they where here before us, and then we came, we fought them, and we won. I'm sorry that you dont have your land anymore, but you lost. Hell, if we had just let them live amonst us as "equals," they would already be some of the better treated on the loosing side of a war.

We have babied the general native population so much that they feel they have supperior rights to everyone else here, and therefore should get what ever they want at no cost. They should be in the same boat as the rest of us, and not get hand outs at the expense of the rest of the working class.

[toyboy88]

Thanks like if chinese people were to always say that they should ride trains/LRT for free since they built the original railways during the "headtax"

[86max]

My frustration mostly lies with the way the canadian government deals with first nations peoples, not necessarily the natives themselves. In a world as politically correct as this, it's hard to voice an opinion on the subject without someone yelling "racist!" and shutting down all discussions. I don't see progress being made any time soon, but hopefully Harper's man Tom Flangan can make some headway in the near future. I personally think the native people and the country as a whole would benefit from them coming independant.

[snowboard]

Originally posted by 86max
My frustration mostly lies with the way the canadian government deals with first nations peoples, not necessarily the natives themselves. In a world as politically correct as this, it's hard to voice an opinion on the subject without someone yelling "racist!" and shutting down all discussions. I don't see progress being made any time soon, but hopefully Harper's man Tom Flangan can make some headway in the near future. I personally think the native people and the country as a whole would benefit from them coming independant.


agreed, but the government is only partially to blame. human nature is also to blame, if you get something easy, why not keep taking it. we are always trying to find easier ways to do things, well hey, they found one, and now there used to it, and are brought up to think they deserve it, fuckin love run on's bitches.
i dunno, like said by 86max,
you cant say shit without someone jumping on your back. dont get me wrong, these "back jumpers" arent always wrong.

[cycosis]

Originally posted by 86max
This is pathetic, as is almost every other issue dealing with Canada's natives. When will this country grow a back bone and tell them where to shove it.


THANK YOU! I fucking hate the idea of reserves, i fucking hate paying taxes for them to go to school free of charge and this is jsut icing on the cake. Fuck, get over it already. I aint a racist but everything about them irritates me.:guns:

And if Method is irritated by my comment well too bad, im nto wasitng my time going in to detail about respect for first nations etc etc. I work too damn hard for my money for it to be taken and given to soemone else who doesnt deserve it.

Ive got a couple native buddies who are part of society, dont live on a reserve and are making a life for themselves and they rock. But common, like Lo)2enz0 said, it aint 1906.

[nismodrifter]

Originally posted by 2000_SI



Sure, they where here before us, and then we came, we fought them, and we won. I'm sorry that you dont have your land anymore, but you lost. Hell, if we had just let them live amonst us as "equals," they would already be some of the better treated on the loosing side of a war.




You are stupid.

You came here, they GAVE YOU land and taught you how to survive the harsh winters. (I'm not going to get into the differences in views of ownership and how this applies)

You then took little children and teenagers and indoctorinated them with your Christian views and taught them that European culture was far superior than the culture of the First Nations. Any child who disagreed or continued to speak/celebrate their own culture was beaten.

The government made acts that were intended to integrate first nations into mainstream Euro-Canadian culture. These acts banned the occuring of various first nations cultural rituals and ceremonies. Now you are blaming them for losing their culture.


Oh and they were also forced onto reserves fyi.

No there was no differential treatment based on their membership of a first nations group now was there? And this lack of differential treatment didn't contribute to the disparity in conditions from Euro-Canadians to First Nations now did it? You are a fucking idiot so please STFU and don't post here again.


Nice comments about the Governing bodies of the First Nations... Like our government is any better.:banghead:


Xtrema:
"This is all on the premise that "we took their land". Boohoo, I'm sure First Nation is probably better off without the handouts so they can better integrate into our society. Probably will reduce all the negativities towards them too."

Why don't you read up on exactly what happened to the first nations when euro-canadians came here. Then post again. Ok?

[Davide]

I remember a while back, hearing from this one old native man, who talked about when he was brought to a missionary as a child to be taught(cleansed?) by christians and the nuns would acually lock them up to those old steam heaters for hours and sometimes days just for talking in their native language. So ya I guess they were forced out of their culture:thumbsdow

[RickDaTuner]

I think the best step that can be taken to resolve the Issue of the Native and Canadians is to look down south at how the American Natives have evolved and have taken their place in American Society.

[civic_stylez]

i used to have sympathy for them until not to long ago i saw a native family in their brand new pick up truck pull into the lot with a bumper sticker that read "keep working whitey, my wife needs a truck too" for all the tax dollars that I/we have given them over the years and they consistently blame us for their hardships so that we give them more money. i am not against funding for any group of people but if our money went into their schools and municipalities to better their life it wouldnt be as bad. all we do is cut them a cheque and say spend away. the money could be put toward better use...

[Alex_FORD]

Originally posted by method
the blatent racism on this site is absolutely apalling, especially considering the ethnic divirsity of beyond.ca

you people should be ashamed of your blatent ignorance on aboriginal issues, and the hateful filth you people spew.

you make me fucking sick.

:werd: I agree, and I am a redneck!
:dunno:

[kaput]

.

[liquidboi69]

Originally posted by toyboy88
Thanks like if chinese people were to always say that they should ride trains/LRT for free since they built the original railways during the "headtax"

Rofl..... I totally agree with that, but not the LRT, the huge Trans something railway.. My ancestors worked hard yo.

[dub_c]

Originally posted by civic_stylez
i used to have sympathy for them until not to long ago i saw a native family in their brand new pick up truck pull into the lot with a bumper sticker that read "keep working whitey, my wife needs a truck too"

yea, and we're the racists. fuck that shit, i cant wait for WW3, every man for himself :guns:

[nismodrifter]

Originally posted by kaput

I even invited those on the other side of the fence to disagree and explain WHY. If you disagree then again, post something constructive, persuasive and CREDIBLE because its the only way my opinion will change.

Ok so people can post their opinions without posting any facts that their opinions are actually based on while I have to post full facts to disagree with your opinions? Seems like a double standard to me.

Like i'm the only one putting down others here. Look at all the crap people have said against the first nations:

-Indians seems to be above the law.
-Most natives have no idea what it means to be native anymore.
-Most natives have no idea what it means to be native anymore.
-Boohoo, I'm sure First Nation is probably better off without the handouts so they can better integrate into our society. Probably will reduce all the negativities towards them too.

All of which were backed up by EXCELLENT facts!



:dunno:

I dont know if you actually read my posts but after the slandering there was some excellent TRUE information backing up my opinion.


:drama:

[LuxCars]

Originally posted by kaput
Don't even get me started on natives cause I will get banned.

hahahahahahahahahahhahahahah
this is now my new sig.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[kaput]

.

[ZEDGE]

LOL

The usual suspects are in full force proclaiming "racism"..

How fucking original. :rolleyes:

"i dont agree with your point of view that means your racist"

:thumbsdow

If anything is pathetic on this forum that is.

Self riteious a-holes. If your all so high and mighty why dont you donate your fucking house to a deserving native family (cause we know the land its built on is owned by them) and move back to where your ancestors came from. Then come back and throw your holier than thou fucking attitudes in our faces.. :rolleyes:

[dub_c]

Originally posted by ZEDGE
LOL

The usual suspects are in full force proclaiming "racism"..

How fucking original. :rolleyes:

"i dont agree with your point of view that means your racist"

:thumbsdow

If anything is pathetic on this forum that is.

Self riteious a-holes. If your all so high and mighty why dont you donate your fucking house to a deserving native family (cause we know the land its built on is owned by them) and move back to where your ancestors came from. Then come back and throw your holier than thou fucking attitudes in our faces.. :rolleyes:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Idratherbsidewayz]

One of my housemates is from Caledonia. He was one of 2 people that he knows in his tribe currently attending university. He gets his entire university paid for, his food paid for, and he also has a per diem type thing. $400 every 2 weeks. Pretty fucking sweet deal for being a native.

I thought this was a pretty crazy thing until it dawned on me that if there are maybe 2-5 per tribe actually going to university, this isn't a big deal. Im glad the government tries to encourage these kids to do something with their lives as opposed to sitting around and collecting free money.

He tells me there is a shitload of ignorance in his tribe. He is ostracized, everyone hates him because hes getting educated. He also told me that the guys fucking around in Caledonia are for the most part bored troublemakers.


I don't even know what to think. On the one hand, they are encouraging native kids to leave the reserve, go to university and do something with their lives. On the other, they are encouraging them not to leave because they'll lose all their benefits.

Someone was talking about the native people forgetting about their history and all that. Those people should go to Vancouver Island and talk to some of the natives there. They are still very heavy into their traditions and are probably the truest natives in all of Canada.

Were all getting assraped by taxes, and id rather the money be spent on reserves and natives then embezzled by the Liberals...

[Toms-SC]

Originally posted by nismodrifter




-Indians seems to be above the law.



:drama:

Prove me wrong hot shot

[sxtasy]

Wow it really is amazing the extent of ignorance and racism on this site towards natives!! Call it a holier than thou attitude, or perhaps accept the fact that most of you have very little knowledge of the history of the native peoples.

Being a metis person, I have seen and experienced the native culture from a white mans perspective.

First of all Nismodrifter hit the nail on the head, the natives lost their culture about 40 yrs ago, in residential schools. They were forced into these schools, taken away from their families, punished for speaking their native tongue, they were beaten for bringing anything of culture into the residential schools. The native language has been completely lost by everybody in my family.

The natives economy consisted of trade, their economy was destroyed when forced to reservations. Its pretty tough to build an economy when isolated to a reservation.

As far as the government funding goes, it is much less than most of you claim it to be. And every year less and less is given to treaties. I do disagree with the way the money is being distributed, the government is just trying to take the easy way out, throwing a temporary band aid on the problem if you will, by tossing a little money here and there to make it look like they are trying to deal with the problem. I would really love to see the money go towards a project to try and build an economy for the native peoples.

What happens on reserves and what has happened to the native peoples is really very disturbing, and I feel sorry for them. There is a lot of hatred on both sides, and a lot of the disfunction comes from family cycles of depression and abuse and a culture that has lost their identity.

For those of you that disagree with what I have said I would encourage you to research a little as to what actually went on and what nobody talks about. By no means are the native people perfect, but what happened to them is appauling, it was genocide, and I hate to see so many people my age share the opinion that natives are bums.




If any of you are interested here are some really disturbing videos of the third world living conditions here in Canada that nobody talks about
few clips here:http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-70-1671-11506/disasters_tragedies/davis_inlet/clip3

[Toma]

imbeciles....

Just jealous of the perks of being First Nations.... like less government interference, less taxes on gas, booze, smokes, gambling, cars, no gst.... plus most native men have far bigger cocks then most of you....

hahahahaha... racism stemming from an inferiority complex?

For the usual racist redneck inbred morons (you know who you are).... there is now a solution to the source of your jealousy.... Click Here! (http://www.altpenis.com/)

[JordanLotoski]

Originally posted by kaput
Don't even get me started on natives cause I will get banned.



ditto!!!

[LuxCars]

THIS IS MEANT FOR SXTASY's COMMENT

^^^

i completely agree to what you have said but if you look back into our world history you will find so many certain cultures, races, and people who have been scapegoated or treated badly or unfairly.
In many of those cases it resulted in war but i dont recall any of these situations of there ever being special treatment for these people for long periods of time, usualy it was a little bit of help to just get them started again.

From my point of view i have experienced many native people abusing this aid from the government and that is what i am basing my opinion on, it almost seems like (IMO) that whatever is asked by the native community is given to them or there will be fights, hatred or anger. And it always goes back to "we were here first, and this is our land"

Other than native people the only people i know that receive aid from the governemnt are elderly widows and people who are on the canadian pension plan and many of them seem to be doing very well. Not saying that many natives are not because i have a few native friends who seem to be doing quite well, but it almost fells like others refuse to try and abuse the aid provided.

AGAIN THIS IS ALL IMO and MY point of view, others may share it, others may not but i felt that it had to be said.

[Tyler883]

Originally posted by Idratherbsidewayz
[B]... He gets his entire university paid for, his food paid for, and he also has a per diem type thing. $400 every 2 weeks. Pretty fucking sweet deal for being a native.


A good friend of mine has 3 sons with a woman that is 1/2 indian, so I guess that makes the sons 1/4 indian.

Anyway, the federal government will pay his sons to go to school even though they have never lived on a reservation, and have never been registered with a reservation. They are as white as white gets.

[codo]

I'm not saying I side with either of this although it is hard not to when you grew up in fort nelson for 5 years as the 'White Kid' tell you the truth theres rascism on both sides, you think when I was 8 I needed to deal with 16 year old natives kicking me around every day calling me a honky for being white? Not really but think about it we do the same to them it sucks either way you look at it, so by no means are natives free of their non rascism attitudes or are we of our racist attitudes. But I definately do think we should all be treated the same but we cant be when we have reserves or 'handouts' being given out so its never gonna happen and people are just gonna be bitching about this til hell freezes over so can someone close this thread already its not gonna go anywhere good.

[sxtasy]

Luxcars, I appreciate your constructive response


Originally posted by LuxCars
i completely agree to what you have said but if you look back into our world history you will find so many certain cultures, races, and people who have been scapegoated or treated badly or unfairly.
In many of those cases it resulted in war but i dont recall any of these situations of there ever being special treatment for these people for long periods of time, usualy it was a little bit of help to just get them started again. Well I am not well educated on world history, but I can think of one off the top of my head, the jews faced the same persecutions, the word holocaust will silence a room


From my point of view i have experienced many native people abusing this aid from the government and that is what i am basing my opinion on, it almost seems like (IMO) that whatever is asked by the native community is given to them or there will be fights, hatred or anger. And it always goes back to "we were here first, and this is our land" I agree the aid is abused, but my point was the aid is very little, most often third world like inadequate. And like i said this "aid" is a temporary solution, hell, it obviously isnt the solution. Check out the video links in my previous post to give you an idea of the so called "aid"


Other than native people the only people i know that receive aid from the governemnt are elderly widows and people who are on the canadian pension plan and many of them seem to be doing very well. Not saying that many natives are not because i have a few native friends who seem to be doing quite well, but it almost fells like others refuse to try and abuse the aid provided. native people are not doing well, money is not the solution and if there was an easy solution it might have been introduced a long time ago. This is a problem that stems from many generations of disfunction and is now a culture that has no identity and a culture that does not integrate with a modern city lifestyle.

[5.9 R/T]

Originally posted by Idratherbsidewayz

I thought this was a pretty crazy thing until it dawned on me that if there are maybe 2-5 per tribe actually going to university, this isn't a big deal. Im glad the government tries to encourage these kids to do something with their lives as opposed to sitting around and collecting free money.



I have witnessed first hand what natives will do to other natives because of jelousy. It seems that nowadays they are their own worst enemy.


Originally posted by sxtasy
Wow it really is amazing the extent of ignorance and racism on this site towards natives!! Call it a holier than thou attitude, or perhaps accept the fact that most of you have very little knowledge of the history of the native peoples.

Being a metis person, I have seen and experienced the native culture from a white mans perspective.

First of all Nismodrifter hit the nail on the head, the natives lost their culture about 40 yrs ago, in residential schools. They were forced into these schools, taken away from their families, punished for speaking their native tongue, they were beaten for bringing anything of culture into the residential schools. The native language has been completely lost by everybody in my family.

The natives economy consisted of trade, their economy was destroyed when forced to reservations. Its pretty tough to build an economy when isolated to a reservation.

As far as the government funding goes, it is much less than most of you claim it to be. And every year less and less is given to treaties. I do disagree with the way the money is being distributed, the government is just trying to take the easy way out, throwing a temporary band aid on the problem if you will, by tossing a little money here and there to make it look like they are trying to deal with the problem. I would really love to see the money go towards a project to try and build an economy for the native peoples.

What happens on reserves and what has happened to the native peoples is really very disturbing, and I feel sorry for them. There is a lot of hatred on both sides, and a lot of the disfunction comes from family cycles of depression and abuse and a culture that has lost their identity.

For those of you that disagree with what I have said I would encourage you to research a little as to what actually went on and what nobody talks about. By no means are the native people perfect, but what happened to them is appauling, it was genocide, and I hate to see so many people my age share the opinion that natives are bums.




If any of you are interested here are some really disturbing videos of the third world living conditions here in Canada that nobody talks about
few clips here:http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-70-1671-11506/disasters_tragedies/davis_inlet/clip3


I've worked up north on a 'dry' reserve where the only white people in town were the law and pilots. I quickly learned that 'dry' is a relative term and I lived to fear 'payday'. In a town of 1400 people there was a job available for everyone who was willing to work just a short plane trip away that would still allow them to take full advantage of government benifts and remain at home with family, but still less then 50 of them were employed. Of those 50 who were employed half would be fired in a month for not showing up, or drinking on the job, etc. etc. One of the main reasons for not wanting to work was, and I quote; "If I go to work, my neighbour will bang my wife when I'm there eh." Suffice it to say I have hours worth of stories that would shock you, but I don't want to be labled a racist so this is a far as I go.

Let me just say that not ALL of them were bad, there were a few good, clean, hardworking natives there and they were shunned by their community for it. My point is that in this particular community, they seemed to be doing it to themselves, yet blaming the white man for everything that is wrong with them. They have all the means to remove themselves from those conditions yet they choose not to. It may have been the big bad white man that gave them those conditions intially but what about now? Whose fault is it that these conditions prevail to this day???

[sexualbanana]

From my own observations I've noticed a trend among the Native Peoples that seems to bother me a little.

I believe the Native Culture is very interesting and very fascinating. Much like every other culture in Canada, or the World for that matter. Yes, they should be able to carry on their traditions and their beliefs. Everything that has happened to them historically is an atrocity and is a black spot in the history of mankind. But then again, so have many other cultures. The Asian population was exploited and ill-treated. From the times of European colonialism to the building of the railroads to World War II. The Jewish have been subject to countless crimes against humanity dating back thousands of years. Yet in these modern times, especially in the Western cultures, they have managed to integrate themselves without losing their distinct culture. It has now become a part of their culture.

This is where the Native culture is hung up on right now. Admittedly, I have limited knowledge of the Native People, but it seems to me that they are having trouble believing that it is possible to ingratiate themselves into Western Society while maintaining their own set of beliefs and values. In my opinion, the provisions provided to them by the government are stopping them from realizing this. As long as the government continues to give them these concessions, it would seem that the Native People will continue to rely on them.

This is simply my humble opinion. If I say something that may offend you, please let me know. It is not my intention to offend, nor promote racial hatred.

P.S. If you are going to write what you believe to be intelligent criticism/opinions of an ethnic group. Do so with proper grammar and spelling. Otherwise you just look like an unintelligent bigot.

[nhlfan]

Originally posted by nismodrifter

FYI: First nations are not from India and thus they are not Indian. Are you people really that dense?

best news i've heard all week, i guess we can go ahead and scrap the indian act.

any benefits or discrimination based on race is just plain WRONG. I don't blame 'Indians', I blame the government of Canada, and the people of Canada who sit back and let the racist policies in place continue to exist.

[nismodrifter]

Originally posted by Toms-SC


Prove me wrong hot shot

Good one! Perfect example of a falacy of ignorance.


Now why don't you prove to me that First nations are above the law - with examples and facts to back up your statement.

[Khyron]

Canada, deal with us today because our militant leaders are already born. We cannot promise that you are going to like the kind of violent political action we can just about guarantee the next generation is going to bring to our reserves."

For starters.

And since when is a group of hockey fans allowed to use a backhoe to tear up a piece of public roadway?

Why are natives exempt from local fishing laws, when they are using exactly the same high tech equipment as the banned fishermen?

I'm not anti-native. But the current setup is fucked. And all the preachers prattling on about how we should love and buy off the natives offer NO BETTER SOLUTION than to throw money at them. I don't blame them. One of my friends in high school was native and he complained about how he was screwed. Stay and get free handouts, or go to work/school and lose it. There's no middle ground - THAT's the problem.

A few of you talk about the racism in the thread, that's easy. You can call names all you want, but what's the solution? Should black people be paid for generations of slavery in the past? All the asians detained during WW2 get a nice payoff as well? At some point you have to say it's in the past and move on.

Khyron

[CasperWho]

cowboys and indians much? :dunno:

[cycosis]

Originally posted by Khyron

A few of you talk about the racism in the thread, that's easy. You can call names all you want, but what's the solution? Should black people be paid for generations of slavery in the past? All the asians detained during WW2 get a nice payoff as well? At some point you have to say it's in the past and move on.

Khyron

:werd:

[Tech2]

Guys, there are dozens of geographically, culturally, ethnically, and historically distinct native societies. No one seems to have thought about how they might not all be exactly the same. Making generalized stereotype statements about them on the basis of "race" is, by definition racism. Just like saying "those white people never take off their shoes in other peoples' houses" is racist too.

Do natives get benifits? Sure. Do they live with a third world standard of living imposed by the Canadian government? Sometimes. Are they all the same? Of course not. Is there one policy that will solve native issues. Of course not, just like there is no one policy that can benifit "euro-canadians", ie white people. Is it hard to raise psychologically children when your social and parenting skills were taught to you by an abusive religious zealot? Yes. Did this kind of education for whole societies cause serious problems on the community level? Of course. Is it useful to provide subsidized education for the minority of people growing up in these communities who can make use of it? Sure. Is it enough? Obviously not. There needs to be work done within and without these communities to get them productive in a way that was taken away in the past. But it doesn't even matter if you want to blame the government or missionaries or natives themselves for this problem. It is better for EVERYONE if programs are put in place to do this? Yes. Benifits for natives: Less crime, less incarceration, less social and financial expense of addiction and violence, less corrupt government. Benifits for non-natives: in addition to the above, increased tax base, decreased social support payments, developed economy. Benifits for governement: all the above plus effective and streamlined indian affairs governement, better soveregnty claims (depending on where certain native groups want to live).

But, programs put in place to make native communities more productive will not work without a sensitive approach to the different needs of different communities. That's not touchy feely new age bullshit sensitivity, that is seeing what the specific and different communities need. There is no solution to the "indian question" simply because there is no single question. If the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" approach to governemental support really worked, Somalia would be the most wealthy country in the world.

Unfortunately the question of native rights/economics/assimilation is not as simple as, "Look at the lazy drunk indian bum" or "the white man is commiting genocide". But most people from either group tend to miss that.



:(

[RickDaTuner]

Originally posted by Tech2
If the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" approach to governemental support really worked, Somalia would be the most wealthy country in the world.




:(


Going a bit off topic, but your comment on Somalia is stated with out relevance. Somalia is in their state of Despair due to the region they live in IE. lack of resources to export, Bananas can only get you so far, Granted when they were given autonomy in the 1950's Britain and Italy left then with nothing, but their Land is still one that lacks abundant mineral/agricultural resources.

Translating that to the state of current native issues, it can be easily inferred that they are just plain old lazy. Natives have their artisanal members who can easily make a market out of their crafts, but as was stated earlier this is not the answer either.

Crazy as it may sound, but I feel that one of the major steps that can be taken to put an end to the Native crisis, would be to show them "love" maybe not directly as one would in a personal relationship between two people, rather one of internship and support, show them how to develop their own goods and abilities while keeping their traditions and beliefs.

This of course would be a hard pill to swallow for most, as the thought of having a "close" relationship with such "barbaric" people would be considered Social depravity

[funkedelic]

off topic:
how come native girls arent hot they have this fucked up deformed bodies?

back to topic:
i say we ship them back to india:goflames:

[Toms-SC]

Originally posted by nismodrifter


Good one! Perfect example of a falacy of ignorance.


Now why don't you prove to me that First nations are above the law - with examples and facts to back up your statement.

No problem:

1) Large crowd gathering on high way and blocking traffic for a large period of time. No police tickets and no military asking them to take it down. This has been up for more then 5 weeks.
'Woolley pointed out that people are still off work because the aboriginal protesters were continuing to block a nearby rail line.'

2) The roadblock is make up of a hydro-tower. I wonder where that hydro-tower came from.
'Vandals shut down a transformer station in Caledonia, cutting power to thousands of residents in surrounding Norfolk and Haldimand counties. '

3) Fighting
'Several native and non-native demonstrators were injured in scuffles'

4) The use of heavy construction vechiles to tear up a public high way.
'then used two large backhoes to tear a trench across the road in front of their blockade.'

5) Blackmail
'May 5, 2006
Developer Henco Industries says it has been offered the return of corporate records looted from its offices on the site of the native protest if it pays for them. '

These news articles mention nothing about people going to jail for this. Maybe you should show me how this is not illegal.

[TrevorK]

Originally posted by sxtasy
The natives economy consisted of trade, their economy was destroyed when forced to reservations. Its pretty tough to build an economy when isolated to a reservation.


I believe they agreed to the whole reservation thing. So now we're responsible for their poor decision making?

[TrevorK]

Originally posted by nismodrifter


Good one! Perfect example of a falacy of ignorance.


Now why don't you prove to me that First nations are above the law - with examples and facts to back up your statement.

That they can dig the road up in Caledonia with no reprecussions?


Do you think I can go down to Deerfoot and dig a trench accross the lanes?

[5abi]

there are 2 sides 2 this, and yes natives should not be exempt from the law. But they also do deserve compensation. The initial point of the reserves was to disorient them from society, so they'd "stay out of the way". There culture distorted. Alcohol introduced 2 it....same is happening in 2 my ppl in punjab.. its hard 2 symapthize(sp) when it does'nt effect u.

[ZEDGE]

Originally posted by Toma
imbeciles....

Just jealous of the perks of being First Nations.... like less government interference, less taxes on gas, booze, smokes, gambling, cars, no gst.... plus most native men have far bigger cocks then most of you....

hahahahaha... racism stemming from an inferiority complex?

For the usual racist redneck inbred morons (you know who you are).... there is now a solution to the source of your jealousy.... Click Here! (http://www.altpenis.com/)

Oh look.. its Toma.. making good use of his "Easy Button". :thumbsup:

[ZEDGE]

Originally posted by Toms-SC


No problem:

1) Large crowd gathering on high way and blocking traffic for a large period of time. No police tickets and no military asking them to take it down. This has been up for more then 5 weeks.
'Woolley pointed out that people are still off work because the aboriginal protesters were continuing to block a nearby rail line.'

2) The roadblock is make up of a hydro-tower. I wonder where that hydro-tower came from.
'Vandals shut down a transformer station in Caledonia, cutting power to thousands of residents in surrounding Norfolk and Haldimand counties. '

3) Fighting
'Several native and non-native demonstrators were injured in scuffles'

4) The use of heavy construction vechiles to tear up a public high way.
'then used two large backhoes to tear a trench across the road in front of their blockade.'

5) Blackmail
'May 5, 2006
Developer Henco Industries says it has been offered the return of corporate records looted from its offices on the site of the native protest if it pays for them. '

These news articles mention nothing about people going to jail for this. Maybe you should show me how this is not illegal.

Exactly, and thats why I agreed with the statement regarding them being above the law.

If this was a group of white people they would have been beat and arrested on the spot. :thumbsdow

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by 5abi
there are 2 sides 2 this, and yes natives should not be exempt from the law. But they also do deserve compensation.

The generation or 2 ago deserve compensation. They are the one that suffered. Current generation should not. They should function just like everyone else in the society.

Preserving culture is just BS. I don't see other cultures being lost in Canada's multicultural society. Just look at the Chinese, East Indian and some Middle East/Muslim cultures. They are all intact without government handouts. The current system promotes laziness. It actually hurt them more than any Christian conformist school did in the past. It should be stopped.

The fact that everyone here has a drunken Indian story to tell means that the current system isn't working.

[2000_SI]

Originally posted by Toms-SC


No problem:

1) Large crowd gathering on high way and blocking traffic for a large period of time. No police tickets and no military asking them to take it down. This has been up for more then 5 weeks.
'Woolley pointed out that people are still off work because the aboriginal protesters were continuing to block a nearby rail line.'

2) The roadblock is make up of a hydro-tower. I wonder where that hydro-tower came from.
'Vandals shut down a transformer station in Caledonia, cutting power to thousands of residents in surrounding Norfolk and Haldimand counties. '

3) Fighting
'Several native and non-native demonstrators were injured in scuffles'

4) The use of heavy construction vechiles to tear up a public high way.
'then used two large backhoes to tear a trench across the road in front of their blockade.'

5) Blackmail
'May 5, 2006
Developer Henco Industries says it has been offered the return of corporate records looted from its offices on the site of the native protest if it pays for them. '

These news articles mention nothing about people going to jail for this. Maybe you should show me how this is not illegal. :clap: :clap: :clap:

[cycosis]

Originally posted by 5abi
there are 2 sides 2 this, and yes natives should not be exempt from the law. But they also do deserve compensation. The initial point of the reserves was to disorient them from society, so they'd "stay out of the way". There culture distorted. Alcohol introduced 2 it....same is happening in 2 my ppl in punjab.. its hard 2 symapthize(sp) when it does'nt effect u.


well if u wanna pay for 'em to have free liquor every two weeks, discounted gas and maybe if they're smart, to go to school, be my guest.

[Impreza]

Originally posted by Khyron


Why are natives exempt from local fishing laws, when they are using exactly the same high tech equipment as the banned fishermen?


:werd: A couple years ago, natives were selling walleye to local Calgary restaurants when nobody else was even allowed to FISH walleye!

[2002civic]

Also why is there no limit on the length of schooling they can receive for free? I've heard of natives staying in University for years and just going to school because they get paid quite well for it (i think someone mentioned 400 every week or two , plus all their expenses paid) i f youv'e got a degree you should become ineligible instead of becoming career students like many in Lethbridge and elsewhere

[Impreza]

Originally posted by 2002civic
Also why is there no limit on the length of schooling they can receive for free? I've heard of natives staying in University for years and just going to school because they get paid quite well for it (i think someone mentioned 400 every week or two , plus all their expenses paid) i f youv'e got a degree you should become ineligible instead of becoming career students like many in Lethbridge and elsewhere

I'm not trying to say that natives are too stupid for University, but how many natives actually goto University? In my 4 years, I haven't met one native :dunno:

Does anyone know any percentages?

[nismodrifter]

Originally posted by Toms-SC


No problem:

1) Large crowd gathering on high way and blocking traffic for a large period of time. No police tickets and no military asking them to take it down. This has been up for more then 5 weeks.
'Woolley pointed out that people are still off work because the aboriginal protesters were continuing to block a nearby rail line.'

2) The roadblock is make up of a hydro-tower. I wonder where that hydro-tower came from.
'Vandals shut down a transformer station in Caledonia, cutting power to thousands of residents in surrounding Norfolk and Haldimand counties. '

3) Fighting
'Several native and non-native demonstrators were injured in scuffles'

4) The use of heavy construction vechiles to tear up a public high way.
'then used two large backhoes to tear a trench across the road in front of their blockade.'

5) Blackmail
'May 5, 2006
Developer Henco Industries says it has been offered the return of corporate records looted from its offices on the site of the native protest if it pays for them. '

These news articles mention nothing about people going to jail for this. Maybe you should show me how this is not illegal.


Ok then

1) Why is it that first nations account for 11% of federal prision admissions and around 28% of provincial prison admissions? - If they were above the law like you say, then their would be no first nations in prisions.

2) OMG ARRESTS AT CALEDONIA!!!! - http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/caledonia-landclaim/
"Some in the crowd head toward the barricade, but about 100 police officers keep them away. Some of the demonstrators smash a police vehicle. One person is arrested."

"Around 4:30 a.m. EDT, Ontario Provincial Police officers conduct a raid on the protesters occupying the housing project, arresting 16 people.

Protesters say police were armed with M16 rifles, tear gas, pepper spray and Tasers, and subdued a number of people with shocks from the Tasers and pepper-spray. A spokeswoman for the protesters said one female protester was "beaten by five OPP officers." OPP would later deny that excessive force was used."

3) Gustafsen Lake Standoff: 14 Natives charged and 4 white supporters charged with 60 offences.

4) Mohawk Standoff at Oka- "On September 26, after a long and tense standoff, the Warriors surrendered, and most of the leaders were arrested"
http://history.cbc.ca/history/webdriver?MIval=EpisContent&series_id=1&episode_id=17&chapter_id=2&page_id=2&lang=E

Want me to go on?


So there were arrests at Caledonia (which is basically against what your whole argument was based on).



:dunno:

[googe]

Originally posted by nismodrifter



You are stupid.

You came here, they GAVE YOU land and taught you how to survive the harsh winters. (I'm not going to get into the differences in views of ownership and how this applies)

You then took little children and teenagers and indoctorinated them with your Christian views and taught them that European culture was far superior than the culture of the First Nations. Any child who disagreed or continued to speak/celebrate their own culture was beaten.

The government made acts that were intended to integrate first nations into mainstream Euro-Canadian culture. These acts banned the occuring of various first nations cultural rituals and ceremonies. Now you are blaming them for losing their culture.


Oh and they were also forced onto reserves fyi.

No there was no differential treatment based on their membership of a first nations group now was there? And this lack of differential treatment didn't contribute to the disparity in conditions from Euro-Canadians to First Nations now did it? You are a fucking idiot so please STFU and don't post here again.


Nice comments about the Governing bodies of the First Nations... Like our government is any better.:banghead:


Xtrema:
"This is all on the premise that "we took their land". Boohoo, I'm sure First Nation is probably better off without the handouts so they can better integrate into our society. Probably will reduce all the negativities towards them too."

Why don't you read up on exactly what happened to the first nations when euro-canadians came here. Then post again. Ok?

they didnt teach or give ME anything. and I didnt take anything from them or do anything to them.

arent you of middle eastern descent? if so, id like you to start paying me free money for what terrorists did to the world trade center. while we are at it, the people with german blood have to sponsor the people with polish blood. oh, and I guess I owe the japanese some money for what i didnt do to not-them in hiroshima. sorry about that guys!

doesnt that sound pretty damn stupid? :)

sorry, but there is nothing we can do. we already do quite a bit imo. we dont have to give them anything. we arent assholes, so we make efforts, and then they rip apart our shit.

can you imagine the outcry if some white protestors went and demolished their property?

[nismodrifter]

They didn't give you anything? I guess you dont live in Canada then. If they didn't give the first euro Canadians who got here land and teach them tactics to survive the winters then who knows what Canada would be like today. You are acting like whatever happens in the past doesn't affect the future (which is obviously wrong).

Someone invented the lightbulb and I buy lightbulbs from a store thus the person who invented the light bulb didn't contribute anything to my current lifestyle because I buy lightbulbs from the store and not directly from the inventor. <--- Sounds stupid right? Kind of analagous to what you are saying.

Isn't it stupid how people totaly ignore what has happened to the first nations in the past and how that has contributed to their current situation? Because that is what that post is supposed to illustrate.... Look at what was quoted. You could also look at how the other events that you listed affected the current situations of those other groups of people.

And i'm not from the middle east.

[snowboard]

Originally posted by nismodrifter
They didn't give you anything? I guess you dont live in Canada then. If they didn't give the first euro Canadians who got here land and teach them tactics to survive the winters then who knows what Canada would be like today. You are acting like whatever happens in the past doesn't affect the future (which is obviously wrong).

Someone invented the lightbulb and I buy lightbulbs from a store thus the person who invented the light bulb didn't contribute anything to my current lifestyle because I buy lightbulbs from the store and not directly from the inventor. &lt;--- Sounds stupid right? Kind of analagous to what you are saying.

Isn't it stupid how people totaly ignore what has happened to the first nations in the past and how that has contributed to their current situation? Because that is what that post is supposed to illustrate.... Look at what was quoted. You could also look at how the other events that you listed affected the current situations of those other groups of people.

And i'm not from the middle east.


so your saying we all owe the current native generation money, for what their ancestors did for our ancestors?
lets think about how stupid this whole argument sounds?

[googe]

Originally posted by nismodrifter
They didn't give you anything? I guess you dont live in Canada then. If they didn't give the first euro Canadians who got here land and teach them tactics to survive the winters then who knows what Canada would be like today. You are acting like whatever happens in the past doesn't affect the future (which is obviously wrong).


err, im not sure who youre talking about, but i wasnt one of the first eurocanadians. when its cold out in the harsh winters, i dress warm or stay inside. my mom taught me that actually. i always got yelled at when i went outside without wearing a coat :(

those guys died long before i was born :dunno:

and your lightbulb example, only sounds stupid when you change it to say that if you continue to use light bulbs, you have to pay thomas edison's family, no wait, he was american so you gotta pay all americans free cheques. oh, and if an american shops in your store, you have to give him a big discount on everything.

damn, whoever lit the first fire is going to cash in good when we figure this thing out...

[Tech2]

Originally posted by Toms-SC


No problem:

1) Large crowd gathering on high way and blocking traffic for a large period of time. No police tickets and no military asking them to take it down. This has been up for more then 5 weeks.
'Woolley pointed out that people are still off work because the aboriginal protesters were continuing to block a nearby rail line.'

2) The roadblock is make up of a hydro-tower. I wonder where that hydro-tower came from.
'Vandals shut down a transformer station in Caledonia, cutting power to thousands of residents in surrounding Norfolk and Haldimand counties. '

3) Fighting
'Several native and non-native demonstrators were injured in scuffles'

4) The use of heavy construction vechiles to tear up a public high way.
'then used two large backhoes to tear a trench across the road in front of their blockade.'

5) Blackmail
'May 5, 2006
Developer Henco Industries says it has been offered the return of corporate records looted from its offices on the site of the native protest if it pays for them. '

These news articles mention nothing about people going to jail for this. Maybe you should show me how this is not illegal.

Those are for sure examples of natives breaking the law. But those examples show nothing about natives THINKING they are above the law. As nismodrifter pointed out, natives obviously are not.

Of course you and I are not personally responsible for native issues. Of course natives should bring their kids up to be productive members of society. But in many cases they can't, as a direct result of government policies in the past. An example of the governement limiting natives' social ability to raise families is the missionary school system. An example of the government limiting natives' economic ability to raise families is putting a limit on the number of farm implements alloted to natives in a certain area.

But like I said before, you don't have to get the governement to help out because of some sense of justice about the past. The government should help out to increase the country's productivity, which is good fofr everyone. What would you rather see, some guy stumbling drunk in an alley every day, or some guy running a business?


Rickdatuner, Somalia does have resources. One of the world's richest fishing grounds is one of them, but no one can fish safely there because of piracy. They might have oil too, but no one can look for it because of banditry. My point was that sometimes governement control is sometimes better than leaving people to their own devices.

[5abi]

its a cycle they're trapped in, the early settelers started it, and was added to till early 80s. The reserves kept the natives secluded, alcohol pumped into their systems so that they'd be head messed all day long, and not ask for their rights....just a generel messing of their culture.

And if this happened for genereations to any culture, there'd be problems. And its our moral duty as Canadians to resolve this problem.

And yes, every1 who lives in Canada owes a great deal 2 natives.

[aaronck]

This is a pretty interesting topic, even reading the title I knew it would get pretty heated...

I saw a documentary about the standoff at Oka, and it was pretty bad. As they were attempting to evacuate the families from the reserve, local redneck men and women threw large rocks at the passing cars, filled with children and the elderly, just sick.
As for the Natives, it goes both ways I guess...I freaking hate to see the hammered homeless variety, and it's just a really vicious circle, with lots of abuse and racism all their lives, sending them into the world with a big chip on their shoulders, because that's all they've grown up with. Add to that a lot of them are born with many problems to begin with, fetal alcohol syndrome being just one of them. Add to that they do get stuff handed to them, so what money they do get is used on soon to be trashed vehicles, instead of important quality of life upgrades for their families.

I think in Calgary we're lucky at the moment, as in Winnipeg the Natives have organized themselves into a fairly well run and violent gang called the Indian Posse, so good in fact they are affiliated with the Hells Angels I believe, it's probably only a matter of time before that spreads further out west.


I've probably used a few broad generalizations myself in my little rant, and I'm sorry if I did, I just vent a bit...
:banghead:

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by nismodrifter
They didn't give you anything? I guess you dont live in Canada then. If they didn't give the first euro Canadians who got here land and teach them tactics to survive the winters then who knows what Canada would be like today. You are acting like whatever happens in the past doesn't affect the future (which is obviously wrong).

So by your logic, if I save your life from say an accident, you'll fork over 1/2 of your paycheck to me as long as you live? And your son will pay 1/2 his paycheck to my son? And continue for generations?

Sweet!

[nismodrifter]

Originally posted by snowboard



so your saying we all owe the current native generation money, for what their ancestors did for our ancestors?
lets think about how stupid this whole argument sounds?

I guess that came out wrong hahha.

What I was saying is that regardless of when you came here the first nations have affected your life. Indirectly in the case of most of us. What ever they did in the past has contributed to what Canada is now. I never said anything about money nor have any of my post been about money.


Googe- my little analogy was to show that regardless of whether you were affected directly or indirectly, the things that our first nations have done in the past contributed to your current lifestyle. I didn't mention anything about money... so wtf are you talking about? That analogy was for the quote "they didnt teach or give ME anything" from your other post.

Xtrema- I did not say anything about money anywhere. So I won't give you any money.. but I will recognise the fact that you saved me and will be grateful for your actions and how they affected me (IE allowing me to continue my life).


OMG in no place did I ever mention money! So stop with the damn money crap.

[5abi]

Xtrema thats just one example Nismo has pointed out.

I do not have a problem giving them funds, its not like only the direct decendants of the settelers have 2. I'm 1st gen canadian, i also pay, my parents pay who are'nt even born here, it comes out of all our taxes. Don't act like it only effects the ppl who landeed back int he day.

And they did much more then just teach, their land taken, introduced 2 intoxicants, their famillies stolen, ppl murdered my missionaries for being posessed or some shit. the list goes on and on and on and on.......for generations....untill now.

[nonsane]

My Proposal to natives:

You may live on a reserve and do whatever you like with that land. The government will provide you with a Teepee, and a buffalo to live life like you did before. The reserve land will not be used. Classes will be offered to those having trouble learning the original way of life. No financial compensation will be offered. No tax reduction will be offered. (Classes will include how to grow tobacco if you require this)

or

You may live among the rest of society get a job, and pay taxes just like everyone else.




P.S. I wish i had 5+ weeks to spend protesting somewhere? Except if i don't work, i don't have money, and don't have food, and then I starve.

[stevieo]

Originally posted by nismodrifter


Googe- my little analogy was to show that regardless of whether you were affected directly or indirectly, the things that our first nations have done in the past contributed to your current lifestyle. I didn't mention anything about money... so wtf are you talking about? That analogy was for the quote &quot;they didnt teach or give ME anything&quot; from your other post.


what have they done to contribute to my current lifestyle?

if I can recall correctly, it was my parents who taught me the ways of life.

it doesn't take a moron to throw a coat on or turn up the heat when its cold. i am not from europe, but seriously, if the first batch of say 'explorers' died from colds and such when they first landed, do you not think that they wouldn't know how to be able to get over harsh winters in the later years?


i had a friend who was 1/8th, yes 1/8th native. (he now is in ontario for school.) He looks as white as white comes. even has a little sun burn on his neck. but for being just 1/8th native, having never lived on a reserve in his life, he gets all the beniefits. drives a v8, gets massive gas discounts. smokes cigarettes like no ones business cause he gets them for cheap. i mean, i don't think thats really fair, and i can understand why a lot of people are angry at how things are.

everyone is busting their asses off to have the lifestyle they want (alot of people enjoy the luxurious life right?) they work hard to get what they want...

just my opinion. i can't really go further but i've had many bad encounters with natives.

[Impreza]

Originally posted by nonsane
P.S. I wish i had 5+ weeks to spend protesting somewhere? Except if i don't work, i don't have money, and don't have food, and then I starve.

That is a really good point. Best point in the thread!

[5abi]

nosane, so your saying we should confine them on reserves, when in the past they had all of N. America?

[heavyD]

For all the Liberal bleeding harts, I lived 40 minutes from Brocket and we played high school sports in against their teams. While some natives carry themselves with class most of the steriotypes are 100% true. They turned a brand new school into a warzone in two years. We got a kick of playing basketball there and watching the students 14 year old women with multiple kids in the stands cheering for daddy. Checking out new houses that were half destroyed, new cars & trucks that looked like they just got out of a smash up derby.

In 1991 I had to do an ADAC course in Pincher Creek after my DUI and the course was me, another guy and about 20 natives. They made everyone tell how they got their DUI and the natives were all laughing like it was a big joke as many had multiple offenses. Some of their stories were quite humorous though like one woman passing out in the driver's seat, car running, with a bottle in her lap......in the parking lot of the Pincher Creek RCMP sation. I have never drank and drove again but you could tell that the first thing that most of them would do after getting their license back was go to the liqour store & repeat the cycle. It's really a pitiful existence that many of them lead & nobody should feel sorry for people that can have so much yet do so little with it.

[Tech2]

Still going on as if all natives are the same...

[snowboard]

Originally posted by Tech2
Still going on as if all natives are the same...

ok 99% are all the same. thats what they all meant. sorry for the misconception.

[nonsane]

Originally posted by 5abi
nosane, so your saying we should confine them on reserves, when in the past they had all of N. America?


I'm not saying confine them to reserves, i'm saying if they want to live their previous way of life, then they should do it:

- Liquor was introduced to them, so no liquor if they choose to live their old ways
- Hunting will be allowed(But must be carefull not to overhunt!
- Grow their own food(And tobacco)

Sound like fun? no? Then welcome to the rest of society. Tax preparation classes will be on tuesday. Government cheques will come when ralph klein says so!

I know about 3-4 natives that have successfully integrated themselves into society while still learning about their heritage.

[5abi]

its hard 2 take out generations of alcohol abuse, ur solution is so childish.

growup.

[2000_SI]

^^Your right, so I guess we should never start trying and jsut keep on forking them over money? :rolleyes:

[Melinda]

My elementary and Jr high were the designated "public school" for the t'suu tina reserve. I can distinctly remember everyone getting up infront of our 6th grade class to read their "what I want to be when I grow up" essays. And I shit you not, my native classmate stood there infront of us reading her paper telling us about how her mommy told her that she didnt have to worry about what she wanted to be when she grew up because canada would take care of her. I remember even back then sitting there with my jaw hanging open. It was interesting to watch the teacher trying to explain how it really worked to this little girl.

Most of the public native schooled kids wound up at my brother's high school and he actually made pretty good friends with them (yes, whitey made some native friends) but they sure did all have BRAND NEW trucks when they graduated (most of them were 18 by that time) and none of the white kids could understand how and why this was fair. Truth be told, I still dont, and I know why they get the money.

I have more stories and examples, but you get the picture.

And for the record, I learned about the first nations people in school. I'm not sure if it was because of our school being the in calgary school for the t'suu tina kids or what, cause no one else seems to know about it or at least that what people in this thread are saying, but we learned quite a bit about them, even had a class called "native studies" where we learned all about their history and lifestyle. "Special occasion" assemblies sure were native hoop dancers and songs. I think their culture's great actually, I admire it more than you know. Too bad most (not all, so get off my back) but most natives have no damn clue what their culture is or why they get all the special privledges that they do. I think it's ridiculous myself, and if I ever found myself in the Prime Minister's position, I would find whatever way I could to stop it and force them to become CANADIAN, not "native" and "non-native" (which by the way, we were reffered to as when I was in school. The white kids weren't white, we were "non native")