Am I getting played?

[FivE.SeveN]

Hey all, I need advice! ;) I'm a devry grad (Oct 05) and I found this job like 3 days after I finished school. My diploma was in electronics but the job was doing CAD work for an electronics company... close enough right? ;) No problem, I knew some Autocad so they let me in. Starting $ seemed low (14/hr) but I figured it's cause 1) Im fresh out of school, 2) I dont *really* have autocad experience. It'll go up eventually, I tell myself..

Cool, so I do my thing for a few months, and then I get to move into the IT side of things. Much better, now I'm the network admin! Just what I was looking to do. They said they'd find me a replacement asap.

.... this was 3 months ago. I'm basically doing drafting, network admin, some electronic design (I built some gadgets that would help us build/test things in the factory faster), *and* documenting all of the above... for almost exactly the same pay I started at in Oct. (Got a little extra at the 3 month point). Monster says Network Admins average 52K per year. I think they're dragging their asses because they know I can do all of this -- and why pay more for another guy when this sucka can do both for cheap?

It really sucks that I went to school for this, only to get paid as much as I did serving tables. SO am I wrong in going up to the boss tmrw and 'discussing' this? In truth I hate being so damn broke all the time, feels like I did all that schoolwork for nothing right now.

Help y0! :dunno:

[M_K_3]

hmm seems a little messed up maybe ask around at work, how much other people are getting paid, then maybe go talk to the boss....

[h_s]

discuss it with your boss, since you are fresh outta school dont expect the big paydays right away

[wildrice]

no offense, but can you count devry as a school?

[FivE.SeveN]

Hell yeah, best one Ive been to actually, and I transfered around a bit. Accredited university. Where did you go that can compare it to?

[eb0i]

I think that if you are the only one doing all this you might have a bit of sway. Also I think you might have a bit more sway, being that this is Calgary and Calgary is an employees market. It's not like you will have a problem finding a job when you leave this one. Discuss this with your boss and tell him exactly what you told us, and if he is reasonable he should bring your pay up to a more reasonable rate of pay.

[googe]

You might want to do a search of the forum and see what the public opinion of Devry is.

[blueripper6]

I know employers who throw away resumes that say Devry on them...

Most devry people think they are worth WAY more then they actually are. You could be one of them, search around look for jobs etc not just on the internet before you talk to your boss...

[FivE.SeveN]

Wow it sucks that I suddenly have this bad rep 'cause of the school I went to.... why all the hate? :confused:

Well least I got some answers, not what I wanted to hear but meh. Thanks all

[aram1000]

u should do some more research and and find out what the average starting rate is for person who does your job duties, then come your next review, document all the things you have done since then, and bring up what u have found out, see what they have to say, in the meantime, start looking for other jobs as well, as that will also give you some leverage if you get an offer, i know how u feel man, i am doing web dev work right now and all of us here are being paid below the market rate, so we are planning to try to get a raise so that we are at least making the market rate, good luck

[rony_espana]

Originally posted by blueripper6
I know employers who throw away resumes that say Devry on them...

Most devry people think they are worth WAY more then they actually are. You could be one of them, search around look for jobs etc not just on the internet before you talk to your boss...

So how much are they worth?

[Steve-O 00]

hey i think you should quit :whocares: what school you went if the diploma is the same as the one you could get elsewhere.

Note just remember most of the people here still live with their moms, and only make 8 dollars and hour. LOL. Good luck any way bud :drama:

[FatboyTheHungry]

I've been in the IT industry for 12 years, so I'll tell it to you straight from my point of vew.

Monster and similar sources will post an average salary for established professionals, not entry level and fresh out of school. $14/hr = ~28K sounds a little low, but not as unreasonable as you are making it out as. With 5 years experience, you can expect 50k, easy. Keep in mind that Sys Admins are also a dime a dozen, and operations is not as valued as it was in the mid 90s when companies were starting to outsource their IT operations.

As far as the value of a Devry education, ALL education is valuable, although Devry is NOT an accredited university in Canada. Canadian post-secondary standards are set differently from the US, where graduates can boast about 2 or 4 year "degrees". In Canada, you can get a 4 year University Degree, a 2 or 4 year College Diploma, or a Technical School Certificate. Schools get away with the language they use, such as the term "applied degree" which is certainly not the same as a university degree. You cannot attain a university degree from a school like Devry or SAIT or MRC unless it is in one of their joint ventures with an accredited university (UofL @SAIT, Athabasca U @MRC).

Most university grads in CPSC should expect to receive something in the range of 40K-60K in an analyst position (Systems Analyst, Jr Business Analyst). The sky is the limit in the long term (Sr Systems Analyst, Sr Business Analyst, Project Manager).

In an operations job, 30K-45K is a good start, depending on the type of operations and the organization (helpdesk, Sys Admin, DBA). An Application DBA can make 100K+ easy, whereas a Sys Admin with 10 years experience is valued at ~75K.

If I were you, I would bring up the disparity between what you are doing (how many positions you are filling, and your duties) and what your salary is for that work. But before you even go there, you should get some other job offers so that you have leverage, and if they are non-compliant, then you have an option to leave without an interruption in income.

Hope that helps.

Bob

[~Leah~]

Originally posted by Steve-O 00
hey i think you should quit :whocares: what school you went if the diploma is the same as the one you could get elsewhere.

Note just remember most of the people here still live with their moms, and only make 8 dollars and hour. LOL. Good luck any way bud :drama:

^If someone is 22 years old and still makes 8 dollars an hour living with mom, I dunno if I'd take advice from that person.

[googe]

Originally posted by Steve-O 00
hey i think you should quit :whocares: what school you went if the diploma is the same as the one you could get elsewhere.

Note just remember most of the people here still live with their moms, and only make 8 dollars and hour. LOL. Good luck any way bud :drama:

Lots have also been in the industry for several years and might actually know what theyre talking about :nut:

Personally Ive not had experience with Devry grads. I kind of wonder why theyre so hated. But its true, Ive talked to so many people that will prefer a resume with NO degree over a resume with a Devry degree. A few IT managers on the forum have posted that opinion in other threads.

Not to say you dont know what youre doing, maybe you do, but a lot of people are not doing that school any favors.

Basically what it comes down to is...if you really do believe youre worth a lot more, you have no reason to be afraid to tell them that and let them know youll be looking for work elsewhere. If you arent comfortable walking on them and confident that you can easily get another job paying better, then you know and they know that youre no worth as much as you think ;)

[GTS Jeff]

It's always good to discuss pay raises, but don't whine to your boss the way you whined in this thread. Instead, focus on how you're worth more and why it benefits the company to pay you more.

[rony_espana]

Originally posted by googe


Lots have also been in the industry for several years and might actually know what theyre talking about :nut:

Personally Ive not had experience with Devry grads. I kind of wonder why theyre so hated. But its true, Ive talked to so many people that will prefer a resume with NO degree over a resume with a Devry degree. A few IT managers on the forum have posted that opinion in other threads.

Not to say you dont know what youre doing, maybe you do, but a lot of people are not doing that school any favors.

Basically what it comes down to is...if you really do believe youre worth a lot more, you have no reason to be afraid to tell them that and let them know youll be looking for work elsewhere. If you arent comfortable walking on them and confident that you can easily get another job paying better, then you know and they know that youre no worth as much as you think ;)

You gotta be joking right? So a highschool diploma is better than a Devry Degree in your opinion?

[googe]

Originally posted by rony_espana


You gotta be joking right? So a highschool diploma is better than a Devry Degree in your opinion?

Not joking. And its not my opinion like I said. Just saying what my experience with others has been. I dont really have an opinion either way. I think even rage2 posted on here that when hes hiring, Devry grad = instant toss in the trash can. Its not the first I heard of it.

Do a search, its come up many times.

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by googe
I think even rage2 posted on here that when hes hiring, Devry grad = instant toss in the trash can. haha rage2's name gets dropped everywhere to lend credibility to arguments. I wish I were that pimp. :D :bigpimp:

[rony_espana]

Originally posted by googe


Not joking. And its not my opinion like I said. Just saying what my experience with others has been. I dont really have an opinion either way. I think even rage2 posted on here that when hes hiring, Devry grad = instant toss in the trash can. Its not the first I heard of it.

Do a search, its come up many times.

I believe I know a Devry grad that works at Replicon, so maybe you got to work your way up or something. I've done a search on this, trust me, I have yet to read something good about Devry here.

And about Rage2's name being mentioned is true, he is a celebrity here.....

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by FatboyTheHungry


As far as the value of a Devry education, ALL education is valuable, although Devry is NOT an accredited university in Canada. Canadian post-secondary standards are set differently from the US, where graduates can boast about 2 or 4 year "degrees". In Canada, you can get a 4 year University Degree, a 2 or 4 year College Diploma, or a Technical School Certificate. Schools get away with the language they use, such as the term "applied degree" which is certainly not the same as a university degree. You cannot attain a university degree from a school like Devry or SAIT or MRC unless it is in one of their joint ventures with an accredited university (UofL @SAIT, Athabasca U @MRC).

People like you are why people from DeVry have a hard time.

"a school like DeVry" ... thats just Fing stupid

DeVry is an accredited school that grants 4 year baccalaureate degrees. At DeVry you can get a Bachelors of Technology, and a Bachelors of Science.

You can even go to UofC and take your masters.

How did a crazy place like DeVry get accredited you wondeR????

Well all board of professors from other universities around the country reviewed all of the courses and determined that YES DeVry can grant UNIVERSITY degrees.

I'm really not sure why everyone hates on that school so much. I hate on it, mostly because I went there and when I graduated I had to deal with all of the prejudices from employers who ASSUME i made a spelling mistake on my resume when they read I have a degree. I also hate on it because of the 50k student loan I have. But all of you other ingnorant people who hate on it really have no right nor reason to do so.

People like to say that you are buying your degree there and the quality of education is lesser than some other schools. I don't know of anywhere else where you can get one on one with a prof any day of the week or where your biggest class size is under 20 people. AND you should also know that because it is a private instituion (not funded by the government like all of your precious public universities) that to get and keep its accreditation DeVry has to jump through more hoops, and is actually held to a higher standard and put through much more scrutiny to prove that its courses are meeting the standards of a university.

DeVry has been approached by APEGGA to make its EET program an actual ENG degree. How do I know? No, DeVry didnt tell me, the dude from APEGGA told me.

I think this all boils down to academic snobery and ignorance.

Now with all of that being said, if I had to do it again I would have gone to school somewhere else because 50,000 dollars is a lot of money and I'm tired of defending my hard work to ignorant people.
:banghead:

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by broken_legs


People like you are why people from DeVry have a hard time.

"a school like DeVry" ... thats just Fing stupid

DeVry is an accredited school that grants 4 year baccalaureate degrees. At DeVry you can get a Bachelors of Technology, and a Bachelors of Science.

You can even go to UofC and take your masters.

How did a crazy place like DeVry get accredited you wondeR????

Well all board of professors from other universities around the country reviewed all of the courses and determined that YES DeVry can grant UNIVERSITY degrees.

I'm really not sure why everyone hates on that school so much. I hate on it, mostly because I went there and when I graduated I had to deal with all of the prejudices from employers who ASSUME i made a spelling mistake on my resume when they read I have a degree. I also hate on it because of the 50k student loan I have. But all of you other ingnorant people who hate on it really have no right nor reason to do so.

People like to say that you are buying your degree there and the quality of education is lesser than some other schools. I don't know of anywhere else where you can get one on one with a prof any day of the week or where your biggest class size is under 20 people. AND you should also know that because it is a private instituion (not funded by the government like all of your precious public universities) that to get and keep its accreditation DeVry has to jump through more hoops, and is actually held to a higher standard and put through much more scrutiny to prove that its courses are meeting the standards of a university.

DeVry has been approached by APEGGA to make its EET program an actual ENG degree. How do I know? No, DeVry didnt tell me, the dude from APEGGA told me.

I think this all boils down to academic snobery and ignorance.

Now with all of that being said, if I had to do it again I would have gone to school somewhere else because 50,000 dollars is a lot of money and I'm tired of defending my hard work to ignorant people.
:banghead: You know why I hate on Devry? Because of people like you who FUCKING CAPITALIZE THE V IN DEVRY!!! GOD WHAT THE FUCK!!

DeVry bitches!

[googe]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
haha rage2's name gets dropped everywhere to lend credibility to arguments. I wish I were that pimp. :D :bigpimp:

Haha, he was handy cause everyone knows hes actually an IT manager and he always posts jobs on here. Plus I need a customer user title and Im too weak to push his car up his driveway :(

And yeah, some of the degrees offered by devry are accredited by alberta.



The Government of Alberta has granted DeVry Calgary accreditation to award the following baccalaureate degrees: Bachelor of Business Operations, Bachelor of Science in Computer Information Systems and Bachelor of Science in Electronics Engineering Technology.

anyway, here is one of many older threads on it:
http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96727

so, did you ever bring this up with your boss? what happened?

[Envitro]

Well, you have to fucking capitalize it because the founder's name.. And he has a Dutch background. So it is what it is.

DeVry ::poosie: is a good school, and like previously mentioned is held to a way higher standard by the governing bodies than U of C or U of A.

And their degree programs are full 4 year programs, but you get to do it in 3 years because it's an accelerated program (i.e. no summer breaks).

And to answer the original question, you're getting screwed by the employer Five.Seven. You should go to him with a list of things that you do on a daily/weekly basis and ask him if he thinks that it's fair that you get paid the same as some secretary? Did you know that garbage men get paid $20 to $25 per hour to start?

[FivE.SeveN]

I went for it. ;) Boss agreed I do tons of shit around the office -- news to follow when it gets kicked up the ladder. ;)

[TrevorK]

Originally posted by FatboyTheHungry
As far as the value of a Devry education, ALL education is valuable, although Devry is NOT an accredited university in Canada. Canadian post-secondary standards are set differently from the US, where graduates can boast about 2 or 4 year "degrees". In Canada, you can get a 4 year University Degree, a 2 or 4 year College Diploma, or a Technical School Certificate. Schools get away with the language they use, such as the term "applied degree" which is certainly not the same as a university degree. You cannot attain a university degree from a school like Devry or SAIT or MRC unless it is in one of their joint ventures with an accredited university (UofL @SAIT, Athabasca U @MRC).


Unfortunately, you are completely wrong.

Degree granted status is given by the provinces, and there are places, such as Macewan in Edmonton, that offer full degrees that are recognized (by the province) as the same that the UofA would give out.


Further, I believe Devry Bach of Technology degree is actually a full degree, and recognized by the province.



So in short, a traditional degree can now be obtained from places other than a "university".


EDIT: Before I'm told I don't know what I'm talking about (Which, considering I work in a place attempting to get degree granting status is hard to believe) here's a link:
http://www.advancededucation.gov.ab.ca/news/2005/August/nr-MacEwanDegrees.asp

[ProjectR]

back it up with all the deliverables you've met and the successful projects you've completed. show them why you deserve that raise. your boss might ask why he should give you a raise. companies will do what they can in order to say money. unless they're a multi-billionaire business and they can throw away money to their employees :D

[5hift]

Originally posted by broken_legs

DeVry has been approached by APEGGA to make its EET program an actual ENG degree. How do I know? No, DeVry didnt tell me, the dude from APEGGA told me.



Dont kid yourself, APEGGA would go down kicking and screaming rather than be associated with DeVry Grads. APEGGA is an association of professionals, not people who couldnt get into a real university. Didnt APEGGA recently win some case forcing DeVry grads to stop using professional titles?

I find it funny that DeVry students defend the value of a Devry education, when the majoirty of them are only there because they couldnt get into any actual universities.

Defend your choices all you want, but when you can get a valued education for relatively cheap at a Canadian public university, I fail to see why you would shell out $50,000+ for a education the majority of society values along the same lines as clown college.

[Steve-O 00]

:drama: :thumbsdow

[Steve-O 00]

:drama: :thumbsdow

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by 5hift


Dont kid yourself, APEGGA would go down kicking and screaming rather than be associated with DeVry Grads. APEGGA is an association of professionals, not people who couldnt get into a real university. Didnt APEGGA recently win some case forcing DeVry grads to stop using professional titles?

I find it funny that DeVry students defend the value of a Devry education, when the majoirty of them are only there because they couldnt get into any actual universities.

Defend your choices all you want, but when you can get a valued education for relatively cheap at a Canadian public university, I fail to see why you would shell out $50,000+ for a education the majority of society values along the same lines as clown college. :werd:

[rage2]

I've hired Devry grads before. They didn't put it on their resume :rofl:.

The reason why a lot of devry grads resumes get tossed out is because, well, 99% of those resumes which result in interviews just suck ass. They feel they're worth way more money than their skills (mostly because a Devry degree ain't exactly cheap) and it's not worth even interviewing them. Sure we may lose out on the 1 or 2 good candidates, but I can find them elsewhere.

I'll post some good responses to this thread later, kinda busy right now, but I can give u guys a good insight into the current IT industry, who gets paid more, who doesn't etc.

[rony_espana]

Originally posted by rage2
I'll post some good responses to this thread later, kinda busy right now, but I can give u guys a good insight into the current IT industry, who gets paid more, who doesn't etc.

that would be great :thumbsup:

[Aleks]

Originally posted by 5hift


Dont kid yourself, APEGGA would go down kicking and screaming rather than be associated with DeVry Grads. APEGGA is an association of professionals, not people who couldnt get into a real university. Didnt APEGGA recently win some case forcing DeVry grads to stop using professional titles?

I find it funny that DeVry students defend the value of a Devry education, when the majoirty of them are only there because they couldnt get into any actual universities.

Defend your choices all you want, but when you can get a valued education for relatively cheap at a Canadian public university, I fail to see why you would shell out $50,000+ for a education the majority of society values along the same lines as clown college.

x2

I think there was a recent issue with APEGGA and a program you could take in one of the schools where you get your Power Engineer certificate. APEGGA freaks out at everyone who tries to use the Term Engineer in this province.

[FivE.SeveN]

5hift that sucks man, saying we can't get into a public uni... I went to U of A as well, and I switched because a) Edmonton sucks, b) nothing in Arts appealed to me and I couldn't get into Eng 'cause I didn't have the right highschool credits. Only took 1 science, never thought I'd go into anything that didn't involve writing.

Talk about a bad rep, maybe I have to post pics of my own home-built MP3 player to show what 'clown college' grads can do? :dunno:

[AndrewMZ3]

I've been told that one of the issues employers have against Devry grads is since the grads forked out 50k for their "degree", the grads compare their education to the likes of MIT, etc and expect unrealistically high compensation in return.

Also, doesn't Devry make up creative names for their degrees? So instead of something like a "Bachelor of Science in Computer Science", a Devry grad will get a "Bachelor of Typing on the Computer"? jk

Regardless though, with the job market in Calgary right now, any post secondary education will get you places.

[googe]

Originally posted by FivE.SeveN
5hift that sucks man, saying we can't get into a public uni... I went to U of A as well, and I switched because a) Edmonton sucks, b) nothing in Arts appealed to me and I couldn't get into Eng 'cause I didn't have the right highschool credits. Only took 1 science, never thought I'd go into anything that didn't involve writing.


:dunno: you said it yourself...you couldnt get in but devry took you...i think that was his point

[gp36912]

ya man, FivE.SeveN build up a little case of what youve been doing how many positions you are filling, etc etc. and take it up to the boss, etc. and discuss a slight pay raise due to the vaule you offer the company :D that usualy works.

and so what if it is 50k for the degree. we get no summers and we take 3 semesters a year. vs 2 a year for university. we go through 8 semesters just like you guys do. they just cram everything into a slightly shorter period. i'm taking business atm there and have a friend thats taking business in u of c they course material varies but the basis of what they are teaching atm are more or less the same.


EDIT:

Originally posted by googe


:dunno: you said it yourself...you couldnt get in but devry took you...i think that was his point
um.. did you not read? he was accepted into the U of A except he didn't have the prereqs for engineeing, didn't want to do art.

[AndrewMZ3]

Originally posted by FivE.SeveN

Talk about a bad rep, maybe I have to post pics of my own home-built MP3 player to show what 'clown college' grads can do? :dunno:

Did you see the pics of the UofC's Solar car? :P

[gp36912]

^^^ ya but how many people did they have working on it :D its a great project for sure, but its a team effort vs his own creation

[Weapon_R]

How many devry graduates have 3.8GPAs again?

[FivE.SeveN]

GP do you drive the white 323 that I used to see in the parking lot all the time? ;)

[lint]

Originally posted by gp36912

um.. did you not read? he was accepted into the U of A except he didn't have the prereqs for engineeing, didn't want to do art.

Did you not read? He was NOT accepted into the engineering program at U of A because he lacked science courses and pre-requisites, but still landed a spot at Devry.

Translation:
- apparently lower entrance standards at Devry
- school is run as a business ($50K tuition) as opposed to an educational institution
- anyone willing to pony up the $$$ most likely isn't going to be turned away.

That was googe's point.

My analogy would be:
university = lambo
devry = lambo kit on a fiero

They both look the same, sorta. One is worth $300K, the other thinks it is worth $300K

[Akagi Redsuns]

Originally posted by gp36912
snip...................

EDIT:

um.. did you not read? he was accepted into the U of A except he didn't have the prereqs for engineeing, didn't want to do art.

So what? BigDeal. That is no reason to quit for good and go to another school that costs more and has less respect.

Should have gotten accepted into UofA under general admission and get the prerequisites needed if he was serious about engineering. It would take what? one or 2 general science courses which are dead easy anyways.



Originally posted by broken_legs
snip..................

How did a crazy place like DeVry get accredited you wondeR????

Well all board of professors from other universities around the country reviewed all of the courses and determined that YES DeVry can grant UNIVERSITY degrees.

.......................

I guess your definition of accredited is different than mine. Your school is not listed on the list of accredited Engineering programs by the Canadian Engineering Accreditation Board (CEAB).

http://www.ccpe.ca/e/acc_programs_1.cfm

[sputnik]

Originally posted by lint

My analogy would be:
university = lambo
devry = lambo kit on a fiero

They both look the same, sorta. One is worth $300K, the other thinks it is worth $300K

Kinda. I look forward to rage2's coming post.

When it comes to IT, it all depends on who is "driving". Put Senna in a Ferrari and an NSX and I am sure each car will perform well.

The problem with some DeVry people is that they are brainwashed to think that they are the best out there and that they have no competition. However thats not to say that there are some smart ones. Personally I have interviewed a number of people from a variety of schools and for a variety of IT positions and most of the interviewers these days dont make it past the personality test, nevermind their technical qualifications.

When it comes to IT I could care less as to what piece of paper you have. Just show me that you are personable and know how to get the job done.

[5hift]

Originally posted by lint



My analogy would be:
university = lambo
devry = lambo kit on a fiero

They both look the same, sorta. One is worth $300K, the other thinks it is worth $300K

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[sputnik]

Originally posted by FivE.SeveN
Hey all, I need advice! ;) I'm a devry grad (Oct 05) and I found this job like 3 days after I finished school. My diploma was in electronics but the job was doing CAD work for an electronics company... close enough right? ;) No problem, I knew some Autocad so they let me in. Starting $ seemed low (14/hr) but I figured it's cause 1) Im fresh out of school, 2) I dont *really* have autocad experience. It'll go up eventually, I tell myself..

Personally I would be hard pressed to hire a Network Admin with less than one year of real experience nevermind pay them $52k. That being said you should be able to find something entry level for around $35-40k without any issues.

If you dont like what you are getting paid. Look for work elsewhere. This city is dying for people in IT. It shouldnt be too hard to find anything.

[glennc]

Originally posted by wildrice
no offense, but can you count devry as a school?

Do YOU know how to do everything he can do?

And I think your getting a little low-balled. That kind of work should pay MUCH higher.

I got paid 14/hr washing bobcats. Talk to your boss, ask around, and see if you are making less then you should be.

[rony_espana]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sputnik
[B]

*Deleted*

[FivE.SeveN]

TOO MUCH HATE :nut: :nut: :nut: :drama:

Fuck if I knew this was gonna start such a debate I would never have even asked.

Proof right here that its not what you know, its all about that little piece of paper hanging on a wall -- and god forbid its got the wrong letterhead on it. Fuckin' arrogant to think that because people go to different schools that they're somehow better.

DeVry Ohm's Law = UCalgary Ohm's Law. Unless I missed THAT one too, and DeVry Ohm's Law isn't *really* true cause it isn't accredited.

[lint]

All joking aside, I think the real issue is that with an accredited school, recognized university, the education you receive is earned. The education you received from a buiness like devry or any other fast track program (think back a few years to ITI, ITT Tech, etc) you are buying your education. And if you aren't, that's what everyone thinks you're doing.

When you pay 10x more for your education at devry over a similar program at the university, do you really think you're getting 10x the education? Or are you getting 10x the chance that you're going to pass the courses and graduate? I doubt many people flunk out of devry because that would be bad for business. They're in the buisiness of pumping out grads.

[lint]

Originally posted by sputnik


Kinda. I look forward to rage2's coming post.

When it comes to IT, it all depends on who is "driving". Put Senna in a Ferrari and an NSX and I am sure each car will perform well.

The problem with some DeVry people is that they are brainwashed to think that they are the best out there and that they have no competition. However thats not to say that there are some smart ones. Personally I have interviewed a number of people from a variety of schools and for a variety of IT positions and most of the interviewers these days dont make it past the personality test, nevermind their technical qualifications.

When it comes to IT I could care less as to what piece of paper you have. Just show me that you are personable and know how to get the job done.

To rage2's point in his brief post. Based on his experience, competant devry grads are in the very small minority. When companies hire, they are playing percentages. They feel that a greater percentage of UofC or SAIT grads can do the job vs a much lower percentage of devry grads. When hiring, companies are much less likely to wade through 100 resumes to get the one diamond in the rough.

[FivE.SeveN]

Fuck meh, lol lint I'm trying to think of something to prove you wrong with, but I can't. TBH, and I know I'm not helping my case here, I know people in my class that didn't grasp even how to use a spectrum analyzer in final term.

Maybe *I* need to hit U of C too now. :(

[lint]

Originally posted by FivE.SeveN
Fuck meh, lol lint I'm trying to think of something to prove you wrong with, but I can't. TBH, and I know I'm not helping my case here, I know people in my class that didn't grasp even how to use a spectrum analyzer in final term.

Maybe *I* need to hit U of C too now. :(

I don't know you or anything about you, but if you're that one little gold nugget in that big pile of devry shit, then just prove to your employer what you can do. At the end of the day, that's really what counts. The paper is only necessary to get your foot in the door when you have no experience.

[rage2]

Originally posted by FivE.SeveN
Monster says Network Admins average 52K per year. I think they're dragging their asses because they know I can do all of this -- and why pay more for another guy when this sucka can do both for cheap?

It really sucks that I went to school for this, only to get paid as much as I did serving tables. SO am I wrong in going up to the boss tmrw and 'discussing' this? In truth I hate being so damn broke all the time, feels like I did all that schoolwork for nothing right now.
The network admin title get thrown around way too much. With Microsoft making networks so simple to manage, it's completely devalued the network admin market. If you're a *nix network admin, you'll get paid a lot more. MS network admins start out cheap. I've seen guys hired for $35k just because anyone can do 90% of the work, simple point and click.

Of course, if you want good money doing MS network admin stuff, you have to prove yourself worthy. And it's easy to move up to the 50-70k mark if you can prove that you're worth it. No piece of paper will prove that regardless if it's Devry, U of C, or whatever stupid mumbo jumbo crap that's out there. I've met guys that are fresh out of high school where I would easily pay them $60k to START.

Don't feel so bad though, I've seen resumes with nothing but MCSE crap on there, I throw those resumes out a bit faster than Devry only guys ;).


Originally posted by rony_espana
You gotta be joking right? So a highschool diploma is better than a Devry Degree in your opinion?
In IT, no piece of paper is important at all. It's not like being a doctor or a lawyer. It's all about what you know, what you specialize in, and how vast your knowledge is. I know a little of everything, and specialize in security and reverse engineering. When working on a project, I can easily understand how everything talks to and relates to each other since I know the basics of how everything else works, which allows me to implement solutions that are cheap and efficient. I don't have any piece of paper, not even high school, and I get offered jobs regularly from employers trying to headhunt me.

IT is a very different world than other professions where it doesn't matter where you learned everything, as long as you're good at it.

Originally posted by broken_legs
I'm really not sure why everyone hates on that school so much.
Because 99% of the resumes I get with DeVry on them bomb the interview. Before my no-DeVry rule, we've hired a few and fired 'em all. This leads me to believe that 99% of the DeVry grads are useless.

Originally posted by sputnik
When it comes to IT I could care less as to what piece of paper you have. Just show me that you are personable and know how to get the job done.
Exactly my point.

Of course, there are a lot of companies that don't think this way (large or small). These companies have the worst IT guys.

We just opened up our Texas office, and hired a bunch of guys locally there. We have zero IT staff down there, but we've designed our systems in such a way that we can manage pretty much everything remotely out of Calgary. When a problem comes up, we know exactly whats wrong and have it fixed BEFORE the guys down in Texas even know about it. They've commented that out of every company that they've worked for, Replicon has by far the best IT team they've met. We know and understand almost everything, and they have yet to stump us with a problem. We actually care about downtime because we can. They said a lot of the other companies they work for, including Dell, sometimes it takes days to fix a small problem because the IT guys have never seen it before.

All this was done by a guy who's short a course to graduate high school, and a smart team of IT guys here where I don't care where they went to school, hired because they're smart.

Originally posted by sputnik
Personally I would be hard pressed to hire a Network Admin with less than one year of real experience nevermind pay them $52k.
Exactly. Experience is worth $$$$$ in IT. You can study everything you want, I'd still pay you shit until you can prove you can do all that stuff. Best example is MCSE. Has anyone taken a Windows 2003 MCSE course? That shit in their tests is totally useless, where maybe 0.5% of it is actually used in real world. Seriously, they force you to remember obscure registry entries to diagnose problems. A smart IT guy can look that shit up on google in 5 seconds.

I wasn't born smart, I learned a lot of random shit selling computers out of my car. I did phone and onsite visits for small businesses and encountered 90% of what every company encounters. Turns out that random shit is useful when you apply it to another company, resulting in big paychecks.

Originally posted by sputnik
If you dont like what you are getting paid. Look for work elsewhere. This city is dying for people in IT. It shouldnt be too hard to find anything.
Not just this city, every city is dying for good IT people. It's really tough to find guys with lots of experience who can do more than the generic point and click MS stuff.

Originally posted by glennc
Do YOU know how to do everything he can do?
See my above point on why DeVry, U of C, MCSE, A+, and other certified guys gets owned kids with no education and lots of experience.

Originally posted by FivE.SeveN
Proof right here that its not what you know, its all about that little piece of paper hanging on a wall -- and god forbid its got the wrong letterhead on it. Fuckin' arrogant to think that because people go to different schools that they're somehow better.
You missed the point entirely. It's completely about WHAT you know, not that piece of paper hanging on a wall regardless of where it's from. The only thing I have on my walls are my racing trophies lol.

If you are as good as you say you are, you wouldn't even HAVE to ask for more money. Your boss would've given it to you without you having to ask at all. When I started at Replicon, I thought I was helping out a friend of a friend for a short time while they were busy. I was hired as a guy to answer the support phone. The boss recognized my skills, and within 6 months I was offered more $$$ without even asking (turned that down for stock options hehe). To this date, I have never ever asked for more money.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally posted by Akagi Redsuns

I guess your definition of accredited is different than mine. Your school is not listed on the list of accredited Engineering programs by the Canadian Engineering Accreditation Board (CEAB).

http://www.ccpe.ca/e/acc_programs_1.cfm

All that means is their Eng programs don't have accreditation. This doesn't support the fact that they can't give out degrees for other programs.

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by gp36912
ya man, FivE.SeveN build up a little case of what youve been doing how many positions you are filling, etc etc. and take it up to the boss, etc. and discuss a slight pay raise due to the vaule you offer the company :D that usualy works.

and so what if it is 50k for the degree. we get no summers and we take 3 semesters a year. vs 2 a year for university. we go through 8 semesters just like you guys do. they just cram everything into a slightly shorter period. i'm taking business atm there and have a friend thats taking business in u of c they course material varies but the basis of what they are teaching atm are more or less the same.


EDIT:

um.. did you not read? he was accepted into the U of A except he didn't have the prereqs for engineeing, didn't want to do art. wow, so let's look for a correlation here:

1. You are the target of GTS Jeff online jerkery...

2. You later admit you are a DeFry grad..



Coincidence?? Hmm?? I THINK NOT!!

[b_t]

Nobody has said it yet, but you really should have researched the school you were going to before you actually went there... especially with Devry since its not subsidized and costs an absolute fortune to go there, with not much to show for it when all is said and done.

edit: it just occured to me that I work a job high school drop outs can work, starting at $14/hour, and then wait a month and you get bumped to $22/hour. :nut: that devry schooling is going a long way for you hahaha :D

[sputnik]

Originally posted by rage2
A smart IT guy can look that shit up on google in 5 seconds.

BINGO!

You want the thing that will get you the most points in terms of impressing your boss. This is all it takes. It is AMAZING how many admins I know that when they get an error on the screen they stare blankly at it for a half an hour and then start randomly clicking to try to fix it. Damn, 90% of the errors I get on my Cisco equipment are easily searchable on Google and usually the first link is to a page on cco.cisco.com.

I really dont understand how troubleshooting can be so hard.

Memorizing obscure crap is probably a good part of the reason that I dont have any Cisco certification yet. However with most companies blindly asking for at least a CCNA nowadays I should probably shell out the $100 for the test and a couple weeks of cramming that crap.

[rage2]

Originally posted by sputnik
BINGO!

You want the thing that will get you the most points in terms of impressing your boss. This is all it takes. It is AMAZING how many admins I know that when they get an error on the screen they stare blankly at it for a half an hour and then start randomly clicking to try to fix it. Damn, 90% of the errors I get on my Cisco equipment are easily searchable on Google and usually the first link is to a page on cco.cisco.com.

I really dont understand how troubleshooting can be so hard.
Part of our interview process involves a tech test, and some of our tech tests require the use of google to find answers. That's how important google skills are in our company.

[bball2]

Originally posted by FivE.SeveN
I went for it. ;) Boss agreed I do tons of shit around the office -- news to follow when it gets kicked up the ladder. ;)

Congrate bro :thumbsup:

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by 5hift


Dont kid yourself, APEGGA would go down kicking and screaming rather than be associated with DeVry Grads. APEGGA is an association of professionals, not people who couldnt get into a real university. Didnt APEGGA recently win some case forcing DeVry grads to stop using professional titles?

I find it funny that DeVry students defend the value of a Devry education, when the majoirty of them are only there because they couldnt get into any actual universities.

Defend your choices all you want, but when you can get a valued education for relatively cheap at a Canadian public university, I fail to see why you would shell out $50,000+ for a education the majority of society values along the same lines as clown college.

I'm not kidding anyone. I've spoken with several different people at APEGGA and DeVry concerning this. According to those I have spoken with, they have approached DeVry several times to try and get the DeVry degree accredited. Devry can't afford to have a P.Eng teaching all of its courses and thus would never qualify to be accredited as an actual engineering degree.

And the comment about DeVry grads calling themselves engineers?? Never heard of or met anyone who thinks they are an engineer.

I'm not defending my choice. Go read what I wrote. I said in retrospect I would go to a different school. All I'm doing is trying to dispell some of the ignorance regarding DeVry.

The only compelling argument I have heard anywhere in this thread about DeVry being a bad school is what Rage2 wrote. I would agree that there were a lot of retards that went to DeVry - They were mostly in the CIS and Business programs... Most of you people are just writing opinions. You have no experience or knowledge to back up anything you are saying here.




Originally posted by Akagi Redsuns

I guess your definition of accredited is different than mine. Your school is not listed on the list of accredited Engineering programs by the Canadian Engineering Accreditation Board (CEAB).

http://www.ccpe.ca/e/acc_programs_1.cfm


You're absolutley right. DeVry does not grant Engineering Degrees.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally posted by broken_legs
According to those I have spoken with, they have approached DeVry several times to try and get the DeVry degree accredited.

I fail to see why APEGGA would do this. What's in it for them?
I'm a member of ASET, and the amount of negativity we receive from APEGGA is pretty bad. They don't like ex-technologists becoming engineers as well. APEGGA is made up of an old boys club. I mistakenly get their newsletter as well :). I'll try to find the article where they complained about members from ASET getting close to APEGGA's job title descriptions and how industry can be confused.

[Genjuro]

your fresh out of school... what do you expect?
i am a network technician with CCNA, network+, MCSE, etc... and i started working for a big company as well...making min for the field im in... you need to build up experience before you can climb the tree. they will see your work now and later and will keep that in mind if your constantly in the spotlight and pushing... just be patient i say... your time will come.:thumbsup:

[Ben]

Experience is Key.

I'll be the first to say I dont have a lot of 'education' in my field, just lots of hands on experience and tinkering with computers/servers in my spare time. Going through High School I was nerding out with computers, but never made anything serious of it because I was going to head to UofC to study commerce and then go for Corporate Law. I made a decision to go into IT based off members of this forum. All my friends from High School left to different cities and I made a lot of new friends off Beyond. I was fortunate to find a place that saw my potential and I completely enjoy it. It's rare to wake up in the morning and not hate going to work. Gain a lot of experience, hone those skills and hang around for a long time, then maybe it's time to move on. Thats how it goes, whether it's moving into a purly managerial role within the company, or not. I myself dont wish to leave where I am for a long long time, but for others, it works out to work in few year stints at arious places. Be so good at your job that it runs it's self, with little interaction other than scheduled maintenance and updates. Once you have a good chunk of years experience, and UP TO DATE stuff, not like "Yeah, I have 20 years experience with NT4...but uhhh...whats Active Directory...." Companies will be calling asking if you want to join them, and seeing sizable perks to do so.

I worked with a few people when I was at Telus that were going to devry night schooling. I remember when they got out of it they had a mega hard time finding work, and really didn't learn a whole lot. Not to mention the HUGE money they spent. They're still at Telus working the same job...

It's important to have a good mix of book smarts and street smarts. The street smarts prevailing.

[TrevorK]

Originally posted by rage2

If you are as good as you say you are, you wouldn't even HAVE to ask for more money. Your boss would've given it to you without you having to ask at all.

In all the IT companies I have dealt with, they don't hand out raises unless asks (Except for yearly raises that is, of a standard amount).

So I would say your experience is the exception to the norm.

[rage2]

Originally posted by TrevorK
In all the IT companies I have dealt with, they don't hand out raises unless asks (Except for yearly raises that is, of a standard amount).

So I would say your experience is the exception to the norm.
I have a lot of friends in IT, and all the good ones will get bonuses and salary increases without asking IF they are good, not just where I work. If you're worth it, they'll work proactively by trying to make sure you don't take off and go elsewhere.

If you're not getting above standard raises, you should ask yourself what you can improve on to shine above the rest of your peers.

[CubicleGeek]

Originally posted by Ben
Experience is Key.

Experience > Any School. The school makes it easier to get your foot in the door and may result in higher initial pay and better initial opportunities. Getting your foot in the door is the big thing and once in, proving your worth is the second step.

[FivE.SeveN]

Pulling this thread way back on topic...

I got it. ;) Thanks for all the tips and "quit being a PUSSY and ask!" PM's everyone, lol.

[rony_espana]

Originally posted by rage2

I have a lot of friends in IT, and all the good ones will get bonuses and salary increases without asking IF they are good, not just where I work. If you're worth it, they'll work proactively by trying to make sure you don't take off and go elsewhere.


^:werd: exactly!

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by BlackArcher101


I fail to see why APEGGA would do this. What's in it for them?
I'm a member of ASET, and the amount of negativity we receive from APEGGA is pretty bad. They don't like ex-technologists becoming engineers as well. APEGGA is made up of an old boys club. I mistakenly get their newsletter as well :). I'll try to find the article where they complained about members from ASET getting close to APEGGA's job title descriptions and how industry can be confused.

Yes, I was also suprised to hear this, But that doesn't change the fact. I am also a member of ASET. I feel that ASET is pretty useless personally. I have met the president guy several times, been to a few of their netowrking meetings here in calgary. Most of the people that show up at those networking functions are old washed up techy people trying to find a job... The last networking meeting I went to there was a contest to see who could get hte most business cards (ie network the most) and I won by landslide but the guy who was supposed to give me a digitial camera for winning never called me...

stupid ASET... Maybe one day when I get my R.E.T.... hahahha NOT


What are we talking about here again?