shocks for s-techs on EJ2 (EG coupe)

[mo_money2supe]

So I finally earned enough money to get rid of the 4x4 look on my car. I've decided to lower on s-techs because the car is mainly used as a daily driver rather than autocross. Just wondering though, what are the best shocks to use with the s-techs? Koni Yellow's are a little outta my price range, and I've heard differing opinions on KYB AGX's. How are these Tokico Illuminas I've heard so much about compared to the AGX's?

Lastly, I've decided on getting a camber kit (both front and back) as well since I do a lot of highway driving (don't wanna wear out the tires prematurely). Now, I've got about $1000 total to spend on everything (mechanicals only), what are my options there?

If anyone could recommend places to buy from (ie. local shops, internet, ebay, etc), that'd be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance everyone!

[H4LFY2nR]

If your not tracking your car I doubt you'll need adjustable shocks. Try looking at Koni Reds or Tokico Blues as they will suit your daily driving needs for a cheaper price. Two of my friends have the non-adjustable Tokicos mated with adjustable coils and they work just fine. I don't know if he still sells parts, but my friends got good prices from 78si.

[civicsi]

koni yellow's all the way,front inglass camber kit, and shim the rears. If you shop around you can do it all for under 1000 for parts only. koni reds are ok but pain in the ass to adjust them.

Dont botther with the other brands you mentioned, IMO they are garbage, they will only last you a couple years and you will be replacing them, especially on s-techs.

[mo_money2supe]

What's so bad about S-techs? Haven't heard much about them myself other than they're soft. But Terry, you know me and comfort for my car...I'm going for all the luxuries, remember? By the way, you don't happen to have any of the aforementioned parts used by any chance, would you?

As for adjustable shocks, though I don't plan on tracking the car, I still do quite a bit of travelling with different loads in my car, so having something adjustable would come in handy for that.

Anyone else with suggestions?

[QuasarCav]

Originally posted by mo_money2supe
What's so bad about S-techs? Haven't heard much about them myself other than they're soft. But Terry, you know me and comfort for my car...I'm going for all the luxuries, remember? By the way, you don't happen to have any of the aforementioned parts used by any chance, would you?

As for adjustable shocks, though I don't plan on tracking the car, I still do quite a bit of travelling with different loads in my car, so having something adjustable would come in handy for that.

Anyone else with suggestions?


S-tech have a drop without changing the spring rate. You will losr suspension travel without having the stiffer springs to balance it out.

They are more of a "show" drop, they increase the looks of your car but not really the performance. Getting Koni Yellows or any other high end strut with S-techs would be overkill IMO.

[civicsi]

Nothing bad about S-techs other than that they are very soft.
I dont have anything for you unfortunately.i would go with koni's im speaking from experience with ALL brands mentioned. Koni's may seem overkill but in the end it will save you money down the road. Also if you up grade your springs to say (custom) ground control you will have a great daily drive/ weekend race car.

[mo_money2supe]

Originally posted by QuasarCav

S-tech have a drop without changing the spring rate. You will losr suspension travel without having the stiffer springs to balance it out.


Yeah, I was in superesc's car the other day with his s-techs and they bottomed out. I kinda see what you mean. On the other hand, I was also driving gpomp's civic last week and they seemed rather nice, mind yo u I was having more fun with the turbo than paying attention to the spring rates. :drool:


Originally posted by civicsi
Also if you up grade your springs to say (custom) ground control you will have a great daily drive/ weekend race car.

Aren't GC's the same springs as Eibach's? I've heard that Eibach's are rather rough for a daily driver. I'm not quite the meatiest guy in the tush area, so I like my ride comfortable, though I would like something stiffer than stock, albeit only a little more.

[QuasarCav]

Originally posted by mo_money2supe


Yeah, I was in superesc's car the other day with his s-techs and they bottomed out. I kinda see what you mean. On the other hand, I was also driving gpomp's civic last week and they seemed rather nice, mind yo u I was having more fun with the turbo than paying attention to the spring rates. :drool:



Aren't GC's the same springs as Eibach's? I've heard that Eibach's are rather rough for a daily driver. I'm not quite the meatiest guy in the tush area, so I like my ride comfortable, though I would like something stiffer than stock, albeit only a little more.


You can specify the spring rate that you would like with the GC's. The Springs are made by Eibach.

Have you looked into the Eibach kits? Short drop with nice spring rates and you could match it up to a cheaper strut like the KYB AGX? Gpomp is using the KYB's if i remember correctly.

[gpomp]

yes, i'm running kyb's. simon, go price out koni yellows and see how much they cost. buying the yellows now will save you the hassle of upgrading shocks in the future.

[dj_honda]

i'm running ground control coilovers with kyb agx and this suspension setup is more than enough for the street. im using stiffer spring rates than stock but im sure with the stock "92-95 civic" spring rates the ride would be fine for your car. the shocks are awesome too, 4 way adjustable is plenty unless you are going to autocross/road race your car and need to fine tune the suspension to the most precise degree. i won't upgrade unless i find a set of hks hipermax coilovers or something hardcore for a really good price. adjusting the agx is nice too...just a matter of a small flat screwdriver and about 2 minutes.

[GTS Jeff]

Halfytuner gave the best advice so far.

[mo_money2supe]

^^ Jeff, my response to his suggestion was:

Originally posted by mo_money2supe
As for adjustable shocks, though I don't plan on tracking the car, I still do quite a bit of travelling with different loads in my car, so having something adjustable would come in handy for that.


Might be overkill with adjustable shocks, but I think overall, they're worth it in the end. Mind you, ~$750 for the Koni Yellow's for my car (as quoted by Speedtech) is a little steep for my budget. Anyone else know of cheaper places?


On another note, does anyone know the OEM spring rates from a '93 Civic DX? As well, the spring rates from something you guys would consider a harsh ride (ie. Eibach's)? That way, I can do some more research and make an educated judgement myself.

[alpha]

I have h&r race springs, an omni front camber kit, and omni rear shim kit, with koni yellows, and I LOVE this setup, dont waste your time with kyb or tokico unless you like the feeling of haveing new parts cuz you'll be replacing them regularely.

[djayz]

what about the blistein heavy duty shocks...ive heard good things about those but they might be a bit to much for the stech

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by mo_money2supe
^^ Jeff, my response to his suggestion was:


Might be overkill with adjustable shocks, but I think overall, they're worth it in the end. Mind you, ~$750 for the Koni Yellow's for my car (as quoted by Speedtech) is a little steep for my budget. Anyone else know of cheaper places?


On another note, does anyone know the OEM spring rates from a '93 Civic DX? As well, the spring rates from something you guys would consider a harsh ride (ie. Eibach's)? That way, I can do some more research and make an educated judgement myself. Shock adjustability is to tune the shock to the spring stiffness, not to counter loads. Shock absorbers are not load-bearing structures, or at least they aren't in a proper setup.

Halfytuner gave you perfect advice IMO. Koni Red or Tokico HP. Pick one and go! BTW Koni Yellows are meant for stiff springs, not Tein soft-techs.

[civicsi]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
.................

Halfytuner gave you perfect advice IMO. Koni Red or Tokico HP. Pick one and go! BTW Koni Yellows are meant for stiff springs, not Tein soft-techs.

im gonna have to disagree with the "meant with stiff springs" part. Soft springs are greater at absorbing energy than a stiff spring would be, your going to need a good dampener to dissipate this energy. Thats something the Kyb's and tokico's just cant handle, you will find yourself replacing or upgrading your suspension again after a season or two.
Koni's are ideal. I have used them with very hard springs and very soft springs similar to the s tech. The adjustibility of the yellows cover a very broad range. The ride quality is excellent and the koni's will a last a long time (daily drivien in them for over 3-4 years, and currently tracking the same set).

[GTS Jeff]

You can disagree all you want. :dunno:

You keep comparing shocks by labelling them "good" or "bad," which is a bad way to do things. The fact is, both Koni Reds and Yellows are "good" and what separates them is the application that they are meant for. All manufacturers make softer shocks for softer springs and stiffer shocks for stiffer springs. Shocks like Tokico HPs and Koni Reds are designed with more relaxed valving to handle longer and slower strokes produced by soft springs, whereas higher performance shocks like Tokico Illuminas, KYB AGXs, and Koni Yellows are very aggressively valved to handle the small and fast resonances of stiff springs with very little travel. Incidentally, you'll find that high performance shocks such as these have much shorter stroke than their little brothers. Soft shocks for soft springs, stiff shocks for stiff springs - this is very basic suspension tuning knowledge.

Your good experience with your Konis doesn't really say much either. I've had a set of KYB AGXs for 2.5 years and they work perfectly. I'm sure I put them through more than you do too...daily driving, weekend racing, occasional offroading, winter driving through -30 days over unplowed roads, you name it...Does this mean the AGXs are better than the Konis? Hell no, it just shows that all these big name manufacturers can put out a fairly reliable product.

Now I'm not disputing that Koni Yellows aren't good shocks, cuz they are, and I'm buying some when my AGXs give out, but I am only getting them because they match my application, not because they are more expensive than Tokico HPs or Koni Reds.

In this case, the Koni Reds or Tokico HPs are a better match for the Tein soft-techs.

[gpomp]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
I'm sure I put them through more than you do too...daily driving, weekend racing, occasional offroading, winter driving through -30 days over unplowed roads, you name it... terry goes road racing in his (race) car...

[civicsi]

Originally posted by gpomp
terry goes road racing in his (race) car...


Thanks, but im no here to prove anything to jeff. ill save that for the track. ;)


Originally posted by GTS Jeff
You can disagree all you want. :dunno:

You keep comparing shocks by labelling them "good" or "bad," which is a bad way to do things. The fact is, both Koni Reds and Yellows are "good" and what separates them is the application that they are meant for. All manufacturers make softer shocks for softer springs and stiffer shocks for stiffer springs. Shocks like Tokico HPs and Koni Reds are designed with more relaxed valving to handle longer and slower strokes produced by soft springs, whereas higher performance shocks like Tokico Illuminas, KYB AGXs, and Koni Yellows are very aggressively valved to handle the small and fast resonances of stiff springs with very little travel. Incidentally, you'll find that high performance shocks such as these have much shorter stroke than their little brothers. Soft shocks for soft springs, stiff shocks for stiff springs - this is very basic suspension tuning knowledge.

Your good experience with your Konis doesn't really say much either. I've had a set of KYB AGXs for 2.5 years and they work perfectly. I'm sure I put them through more than you do too...daily driving, weekend racing, occasional offroading, winter driving through -30 days over unplowed roads, you name it...Does this mean the AGXs are better than the Konis? Hell no, it just shows that all these big name manufacturers can put out a fairly reliable product.

Now I'm not disputing that Koni Yellows aren't good shocks, cuz they are, and I'm buying some when my AGXs give out, but I am only getting them because they match my application, not because they are more expensive than Tokico HPs or Koni Reds.

In this case, the Koni Reds or Tokico HPs are a better match for the Tein soft-techs.


Actually, common suspension tuning knowledge is based on how the car reacts. I've gone through quite a few setups (On and off the track).
I've had more success with koni’s and ALL of which were on Honda's. How many Honda's have you owned and really;

"daily driving, weekend racing, occasional offroading, winter driving through -30 days over unplowed roads"

to give any specific advice?

For the price of koni yellows , they arent that much more than a set of red’s. The ride quality(comfort) is fine. That’s why it's adjustable. best bang for the buck.

[speedracer]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
Soft shocks for soft springs, stiff shocks for stiff springs - this is very basic suspension tuning knowledge.

That would be a limited view. Basic suspension tuning is much, much more. There's ride height, camber, toe, caster, anti roll bars... and that just the basic



Originally posted by GTS Jeff
I'm sure I put them through more than you do too...daily driving, weekend racing, occasional offroading, winter driving through -30 days over unplowed roads, you name it...[/B]
I wouldn't call people out without knowing them. :rofl:

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by civicsi



Thanks, but im no here to prove anything to jeff. ill save that for the track. ;)




Actually, common suspension tuning knowledge is based on how the car reacts. I've gone through quite a few setups (On and off the track).
I've had more success with koni’s and ALL of which were on Honda's. How many Honda's have you owned and really;

"daily driving, weekend racing, occasional offroading, winter driving through -30 days over unplowed roads"

to give any specific advice?

For the price of koni yellows , they arent that much more than a set of red’s. The ride quality(comfort) is fine. That’s why it's adjustable. best bang for the buck.

I don't know what you're arguing here. We both agree that Konis are good shocks. I'm saying that you should use the Reds for soft shocks and the Yellows for stiff shocks. You mentioned that Yellows are adjustable, true, but you're forgetting that they are only rebound adjustable, not compression adjustable, which is important to match to spring rate.

Frankly, it doesn't matter how many Hondas I've owned if my information is sound. I'm glad you've owned lots of Hondas and have lots of race experience. That's great. But that doesn't mean you can change the laws of physics whenever you post about shocks. :dunno: Have you ever been to Future Shop and listened to the salesmen there? They think that their job title makes them experts at TVs or whatever, even when they aren't really. :dunno:


Originally posted by speedracer

That would be a limited view. Basic suspension tuning is much, much more. There's ride height, camber, toe, caster, anti roll bars... and that just the basic



I wouldn't call people out without knowing them. :rofl:

No one is calling anyone out...Isn't it possible to have a nice discussion without being afraid of stepping on peoples' toes over everything? Isn't that the point of a forum? Stop looking for drama, sista.

And no shit there's more to suspension - but why would I talk about sway bars in a thread about shocks?

Ps. I'm not calling you out..

[civicsi]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff


I don't know what you're arguing here. We both agree that Konis are good shocks. I'm saying that you should use the Reds for soft shocks and the Yellows for stiff shocks. You mentioned that Yellows are adjustable, true, but you're forgetting that they are only rebound adjustable, not compression adjustable, which is important to match to spring rate.
........



Both reds and yellows are only rebound adjustable, you make it sound like the reds are bump adjustable(i hope not what you mean). Also it doesnt matter, both are meant for street/passanger car application. As long as there is strut travel and your not bottoming out they are both made for specific application (civic in this case) regardless of spring. If we were talking about some of the road race/auto-X application koni's then id say yeah you may have a point.

This is right off the koni website in the FAQ (in reference to red's and yellow's):

Q: What are the best springs to match my KONIs.

A: One of the great advantages of KONI adjustable shocks is that there is no specific spring for matching optimum performance. Instead you can adjust your KONIs to match your springs. Most performance springs have a higher spring rate than the vehicle's original springs. Since the shock controls the motion of the spring, increased spring rates require more rebound damping for control and that is one of the reasons why KONIs are rebound adjustable (and some are double adjustable). Using higher rate springs with OE or soft shocks will very quickly overcome and wear out the shocks. The KONI adjustment range is typically about 100% (twice as firm at the full firm settings at the full soft setting) to allow for proper damping of OE springs and high rate performance springs.





Originally posted by GTS Jeff

.........
Frankly, it doesn't matter how many Hondas I've owned if my information is sound. I'm glad you've owned lots of Hondas and have lots of race experience. That's great. But that doesn't mean you can change the laws of physics whenever you post about shocks. :dunno: Have you ever been to Future Shop and listened to the salesmen there? They think that their job title makes them experts at TVs or whatever, even when they aren't really. :dunno:



No one is calling anyone out...Isn't it possible to have a nice discussion without being afraid of stepping on peoples' toes over everything? Isn't that the point of a forum? Stop looking for drama, sista.

And no shit there's more to suspension - but why would I talk about sway bars in a thread about shocks?

Ps. I'm not calling you out..

The thing is your information isnt sound. You have a fallacy about koni yellows being this hard race application and Red's being this gentle soft street application. However they are both designed for passenger cars, and in terms of "stiffness" they are just relative to each other. Reds' set at max is are identical to the yellow's set max, conversely set to a minimum the red's MAYBE marginally softer (in a civic anyways, this is where the "experience" part is relevant to simons application).
What the big difference is, is adjustability. Yellow's are easier to adjust as i mentioned before, and have more settings to select from in between the min-max settings. Therefore being the best choice in the brands presented.

No one has changed the laws of physics, i dont know where in my posts you are referring to (I hear you like to post DRUNK on the odd occcasion :nut: ). If you still dont know what im trying to say you need to go and educate yourself about koni's, go here:

www.koni-na.com/whykoni.cfm


Lastly "sistsa", this was a nice discussion until you decided to be the GTS Jeff you always are.

PS im done explaining here so i am calling you out. Prep your car ill see you at the track. i want to see the fancy heel-towing action in work, but i warn you heel-towing is much harder in real shoes.

:burnout:

[GTS Jeff]

Wow, how did a simple technical discussion make you want to throw in all these personal insults towards me? I do believe that I've only stuck to the discussion without making stabs at you personally, but if you find a commoner like me even daring to challenge your posts to be insulting, then I apologize. I have no desire to get into a pissing contest with a well-respected member of the car community like you.

I believe where we are getting hung up on is that Koni's old Reds and new Reds are quite different. There are many old Reds that are adjustable (even externally,) like the Yellows, but now, most of the new ones are non-adjustable, non-sporting shocks, similar to Tokico HPs. In fact, I think "Koni Sports" used to be sold with red paint as well as yellow paint.

[H4LFY2nR]

^^ I didn't know Koni changed their line up, I was referring to the non-adjustable shocks that they offer.

In the original post it said that the Koni Yellows were too expensive and that he was looking for a cheaper solution. If he just wants a daily driver then the non adjustable shocks will do the job, and save him money. However, if he plans on racing it, or if he wants the option of adjusting the dampening then I think the general consensus is that the Koni Yellows would be worth saving up for.

[speedracer]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
No one is calling anyone out...Isn't it possible to have a nice discussion without being afraid of stepping on peoples' toes over everything?


Lets see....

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
...
Soft shocks for soft springs, stiff shocks for stiff springs - this is very basic suspension tuning knowledge.
...
I'm sure I put them through more than you do too...daily driving, weekend racing, occasional offroading, winter driving through -30 days over unplowed roads, you name it...


Originally posted by GTS Jeff

That's great. But that doesn't mean you can change the laws of physics whenever you post about shocks.
....
Stop looking for drama, sista.



Hmmm :dunno:


Originally posted by GTS Jeff
You mentioned that Yellows are adjustable, true, but you're forgetting that they are only rebound adjustable, not compression adjustable, which is important to match to spring rate.

No, there are many applications that they also offer more to the full range in yellow. It just depends if the car is popular and if people demand it. Suspension tuning is not really basic...


Originally posted by H4LFY2nR
^^ I didn't know Koni changed their line up, I was referring to the non-adjustable shocks that they offer.

They haven't. RED Konis have always been adjustable from back in my day so I dunno how long ago GTS_Jeff is refering to.


Originally posted by H4LFY2nR
In the original post it said that the Koni Yellows were too expensive ...[/B]

Call up one of the sponsors and ask for a quote with a budget of $1000 with a camber kit. It shouldn't be out of reach unless ofcourse the budget is much less than stated. Then that's a different story.

And no, konis is not the "shiat" just what has been mentioned in the posts with incorrect reference / info. There are other struts as well that will fit that budget for "sporty" driving.

FYI - Yellow Konis are not for racing. For sporty driving. It's not as hard core as one would think.

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by speedracer


Lets see....


Hmmm :dunno: [/B][/QUOTE] Wow, you're really out for blood, aren't you? I don't really see where I called anyone out. :dunno: In fact, it looks more like I'm specifically stating that I'm not looking for drama. If I wanted to start shit, I would probably troll through civicsi's old posts for "dirt," then pick apart his posts, maybe find a buddy to back me up...

Like wtf...I came in this thread to offer my best opinion to the original poster and before you know it, you elitists are all over me because I think -30 weather is harder on shocks than road racing. :thumbsdow

[speedracer]

Must be difficult in comprehending your own words.

I suggest offering sound advice without using theory as actual
application and practice.



Originally posted by GTS Jeff


Wow, you're really out for blood, aren't you? I don't really see where I called anyone out. :dunno:

[rage2]

lol stock suspension FTW! :rofl: