Do it yourself or pay for it?

[Crymson]

So here's the deal.

I'm buying a used car, it got a treatment from by the previous owner a few years ago from the ding doctor, and probably detailed as well. Is pretty good, other than a few knicks on the front end.

What i'm wondering is this.

Starting from ground 0, meaning i have a microfiber cloth and a bucket, what how does the cost and time to aquire all that i'd need to do a proper job, compare with the cost and the time of having it professionally detailed?

I've spend the last few hours reading autotopia, and it seems like i need ALOT of stuff, to do a good job.

[bigboom]

id do it myself...if you took it in it would cost you probably $200.
if you buy everything yourself you can use it more than once...if you want a 3 stage system like meguiars and mothers has here is an approx. breakdown.

clay bar-$20
pre wax cleaner - $15
stage 2 - $15
meguiars nxt wax - $25
various cloths/buffing pads - $25
not sure if you need it but if you have a lot of swirls you may also need to pick up some scratch x and maybe some back to black if it has fading black plastic trim.

[Crymson]

From what i've read on Autopia, here's what i THINK i need.

The car's paint doesn't seem oxidized, but it's a dark green, and is certainly "swirly"

So, i'm thinking

1) Wash the crap out of it

2) Clay bar the asphault chunks, bug guts, and debris.

3) Compound (not sure if necessary, seems lik a rough abrasive) some of the dings on the front clip, and any light to medium scratches.

4) Polish, the entire car to remove the swirlies.
-- I'm NOT going to do this by hand, so one of those 8 or 10 inch polishing guns from Canadian tire.

5) Don't know if i need this, but a super fine, prewax polish?

6) Wax

does this sound right? I've only researched for about 2 hours.

[KKY]

I agree there's quite a bit of things involved to get a car looking good. But after you've got the process down, it shouldn't be too difficult.

You're not going to get much results with a canadian tire polish gun. If you want to get rid of the swirls, you're looking at at least a PC (you've probably run into that term a lot on autopia). Cheapest I've seen in Canada is $170. add about $50 to that for a set of good pads and backing plate. For a dark car, you'll need fine polish to enhance shine. Recommand that you do more research and take a look at the poorboy's ssr line or the Optimum line.

But with all these, detailing yourself is probably still cheaper in the long run. Unless you have a lot of paint damage. in that case you may want to get it done professionally for the first time.

[kaput]

.

[Crymson]

Sorry, for the ingnoracne but what is a PC?

From autopia, what i gathered is that i don't want to near the real rotary orbital sander (die grinder with a buff pad) as an amateur will likely do more damage that good.

What the autopia faqs and how to's always suggest is a "Dual Action", as it was motorized, but lacked the oompg to tear through your clear coat.

I'm not sure what they were referring to, so i assumed it was the "buffing gun" looking things at cdn. junk.

Someone correct me if i'm wrong here, otherwise you're going to see pictures of a disaster.

[TimG]

a Porter Cable 7424 or 7336 is a dual action random orbital polisher. It's not the same as a rotary.

The PC is virtually idiot proof. it's difficult (almost imposisble) to burn your paint with it.

Those Simoniz and turtle Wax 10" buffers are garbage. don't waist your time and money on them. They aren't strong enough to generate the heat that you need to break down the polish and have it do it's magic.

kaput: eshine.ca and carcaresmart.com sometimes have specials on PC's. I bought mine for $170 at CT about 4 years ago because it was marked down as a clearance item. the next day it was back up to $240 :D

[Crymson]

Ah, ok so PC stands for Porter Cable -- that makes sense.

So i want this one (http://www.canadiantire.ca/assortments/product_detail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474396669473&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474396670271&bmUID=1151428403082&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442458991&assortment=primary&fromSearch=true) from Canadian tire, the Random Orbital polisher, not the Variable speed one?

[big_k]

I say do it yourself. I enjoy being out in the sun cleaning the car, and then you get the satisfaction of knowing you made it look that clean and shiny yourself. And it might be exspensive the first time you do it if you buy everything, but you get to use the product over and over, so it is by far cheaper in the long run.

[TimG]

Originally posted by Crymson
Ah, ok so PC stands for Porter Cable -- that makes sense.

So i want this one (http://www.canadiantire.ca/assortments/product_detail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474396669473&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474396670271&bmUID=1151428403082&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442458991&assortment=primary&fromSearch=true) from Canadian tire, the Random Orbital polisher, not the Variable speed one?


correct.

i'd recommend getting it here, tho

http://www.eshine.ca/proddetail.php?prod=PCK&cat=51

[Crymson]

cool site! thanks.

Probably end up getting the cdn tire one though, i have a 45$ wad of canadian tire money wedged into my change jar.

[KKY]

carcaresmart.com and eshine.ca are good canadian online stores for good detailing products. free shipping for orders over $150 for both, i believe.

and i recently discovered another one called 2020kustoms.com. they have limited selections but a bit cheaper than the other 2 sites, no free shipping though. i may try them out soon.

[Crymson]

Are any of these guys located in Calgary?

I hate buying online.

[TimG]

my 2 cents: buy it from eshine (in toronto) and save your $45 in CT money for things like a clay bar and other consumables.

if you buy the PC from CT, you'll still have to buy a back plate and pads also.

[riced]

I, personally would do it myself... not only because at the end, if you did a good job, you have satisfaction from doing it yourself and you know what products your putting on your car and what products your using to take them off.

I just ordered a PC from ebay for about 215$ CAD, this includes shipping and all the pads needed.

I recommend picking up more than 1 microfiber cloth and get maybe 5 - 10; this is because you have to constantly wipe and flip to get a nice surface.
I'm afraid that if you want a nice show car shine, you will need:
(BTW, i am assuming your going to be using OTC products)
1) Microfiber wash mit or a Sheepskin wash mit
2) Meguiars gold class or Meguiars deep crystal car shampoo
3) the absorber is one of the best OTC drying towels out there, synthetic chamois tends to capture dirt and therefore causing swirls and micro marring
4) Meguiars claybar
5) Meguiars pant cleaner - this will clean the surface and remove oxidants and other small debris that the claybar did not get
6) Polish, depending on how bad the swirls and scratches are... you can pick up Meguiars polish (fine, medium, and diamond cut polishes) at auto value
7) Sealant or glaze, this protects the nicely waxed and polished paint that you worked so hard on. This also brings out the shine and removes small swirls.
8) you can choose to apply a protectant wax and then a carnuaba wax, or just the carnuaba wax. I like to put rain-x and then Meguiars high tech yellow wax or Meguiars NXT tech wax.

those are the products... and remember to have at LEAST 5 microfiber cloths and at LEAST 5 applicator pads.
a PC will greatly improve the look of the paint and give you much better results.

good luck and keep us updated on what you decide to go with.

[Crymson]

Thanks riced,

So the mcguires stuff isn't bad? Thats what they sell at Candian tire. Reading detailing forums it's just such a flurry of fanboy crap (It's not good, if you can get it everwhere, eg. mothers and mcguires, it's only good if it costs 10$ and oz and is shipped in from Italy, that sort of stuff).

I agree though, i definately WANT to do it myself, however i'm just afraid of bunging something up.

This car is being bought more as a hobby, but it's definately not a project car. I'm not mechanically inclined enough to start working on the car by myself, so i want to start small, do some detailing, car audio/guage installs, the maybe some part polishing and move onto vacuum line replacing.

I don't want to start till i replace the digi came that lisa dumped into the sink full of dish water, so i can at least do some before and after pics.

[TimG]

Meguiar's is good.

The stuff in their beige bottles is the "professional" stuff. #9 is a decent swirl mark remover. If you need something more aggressive, their Dual Action Cleaner Polish is good, but it dusts a lot and sometimes takes quite a few passes to get the swirlies out.

Their #26 yellow wax is great too. combine #7 show car glaze with #26 after a good polishing session and you have a killer combo.

What colour is the car?

[Crymson]

The car is a dark blue/green -- direct sunlight will reflect a green metallic, but in the shade the car looks dark blue.

I also have a silver lance, that has gotten a few scuffs an scrathes in the last year and half -- so i hope i could do those aftewards on a spot by spot basis.

The lancer also has alot of black little bits of road tar on the lower 1/4 of the body panels from a trip to s'toon through roadwork. I'm hopeing clay bar will get those out.

[kaput]

.

[riced]

I agree. Meguiars is one of the best OTC products you can get. And yes, the ones in the yellow/beige bottle is a little higher up there. Auto Value carries the majority of them, canadian tire or walmart or wherever else I have not seen them having them in stock.
Give auto value a try.
The part about messing something up... is something that can be pretty hard unless you do it on purpose.

remember... when applying and wiping, always left and right motions.. you dont want swirls on your paint

use the right cloth for the right use. sponge applicator pad for waxes and polishes. Microfiber cloths to wipe and polish... the absorber or waffle weave microfiber drying towel or the absorber to dry

[riced]

Originally posted by kaput
Can someone who has a PC recommend a specific set or sets of plates/pads that are good? I don't have a clue what to look for in a quality set or how to determine if it will work with the PC.

6"x 2" White Foam Waxing Pad (For apply & removing Wax)
6"x 1 1/4" Black Foam Finishing Pad (For light duty cleaning)
6"x 1 1/4" Yellow Foam Cutting Pad (For scratches & oxidation)
6"x 1 1/4" Green Foam Polishing Pad (For brightening up the paint)
6" MicroFiber Bonnet (Designed for waxing Glamour Colors)

you'll most likely have to order them online, you wont be able to find PC products here.

[Crymson]

So each of the different colours is designed to hold a different type of chemical?

[riced]

usually thats the case, most people with PC's refer to pads using colors because its identifiable that way. More of a way to know which pad to use with what product.

but at some point in the detialing process, you will need all the pads.

[TimG]

you have to be careful about refering to pads by their colour. Lake Country pads use a different colour scheme than Meguiar's or 3M pads for the same cutting power.

and about wiping your car, the rule of thumb is to wipe in the same direction that the air would flow over your car.

IMO, if you're going to be ordering the PC and pads online from eshine, buy the poorboys SSR 1 and SSR 2.5 swirl mark removers. SSR1 is equivalent to or better than Meguiar's #9 and 2.5 is better than DACP. AND both can be used in direct sunlight and don't dust anywhere near as much (and they smell like candy :))

When i wash my car, I use a california water blade to get the excess water off and then blot dry with a bigass MF towel. the water blade is safe as long as you keep the blade clean and make sure there's no dirt on the car when you use it.

[KKY]

Typically, you'll have finishing pads for sealent and wax, and polishing pads for polishes. and maybe cutting pads for more polishing power.

Be careful with cutting pad plus heavy polish on dark car though. This combo can leave light haze that's tough to get out. Always start with the least abrasive pad and polish combo and work your way up one step at a time if you're not getting any results.

Meguiars line has some good stuff. I'm using #80 and #83 from their professional line (beige bottle) and also their clay. don't waste your effort on their Deep Crystal 3 step System thought.

However I would recommend trying out Poorboy's SSR line for it's ease of use.

[riced]

Yeah, sorry about that. I'm kind of used to just referring to the pads by the colours because on autopia everyone knows what I mean when i say i used the black pad or orange.
thanks for clearing that up

[TurboTEGRA]

I would just get it detailed at calgary auto salon the do the inside and outside for $200 and it looks amazing. I have a black lexus and they always do mine

[Moe Man]

i think it is point less to pay big dollars to get it done. serously how long is it going to stay clean for....i would rather do it myself.

[Crymson]

Well the vehicle is my driveway now, and i doubt it will be plated for a few days, but i can't stop trying to be around it.

The paint is alot better than I intially thought, but that may have been the 8:30pm twilight masking some of the swirling, and it is mighty dusty.

I'm going to start trying some of this amazingness tomorrow night.

Thanks to all of you for your amazing advice and help, my eyes are open.

[Grip172]

oops..i thought with a title like this, this was a threadabout sex..my bad

[kaput]

.

[KKY]

I've never try the heavy cut pad, but the orange cutting pad should be sufficient in most cases. and would probably be easier to handle. if it doesn't take everything out in the first pass, just do another. You can't expect to take out every single scratch with a PC anyways.

Some say you should have at least one pad per product and never mix pads. so depending on the number of products you are using, you should get at least one pad for each. But I wouldn't go that far. I think as long as you don't mix pads for different types of products, you should be fine. for example, pads that have been used with polishes should not be used for paint cleaners and vice versa.

83 and 80 are good, but not the easiest stuff in the world to use. If you're getting your pads from eshine, might as well get the poorboy's ssr 2.5 and ssr 1 for the swirls. you can then use your #7 and #26 after takeing out the swirls.

carcaresmart is in BC. took them 3 days to ship my stuff. eshine is in Ont. I don't think it would take more than a week to ship stuff out here.

[kaput]

.

[rc2002]

Wow you guys are hardcore detailers. I say do the clay bar and 3-step Mother's wax. If your paint is still pretty new, that will do wonders. Otherwise I'd start looking into power polishing.

For me now, time is worth more than looking into buying all these detailing products especially as far as power polishing is concerned. I'd rather just pay a guy to power polish it for me.

[Crymson]

Ok --


So on closer inspection, the front clip is quite chipped.

Lookes like rocks have chipped off the clearcoat, and at some point he had waxed over it, so there are white wax lines surrounding each chip, which on first inspection, i thought were just dried water drops because they look like that. But running my hand over it, i realized they're significant chips.

Any suggestions?

[KKY]

Originally posted by Crymson
Ok --


So on closer inspection, the front clip is quite chipped.

Lookes like rocks have chipped off the clearcoat, and at some point he had waxed over it, so there are white wax lines surrounding each chip, which on first inspection, i thought were just dried water drops because they look like that. But running my hand over it, i realized they're significant chips.

Any suggestions?

Basically, use rubbing alcohol to clean the chip area then fill the chip with touch up paint. May involve sanding, be cautious.

Believe there's a how-to on autopia about paint chip fix.

[KKY]

Originally posted by kaput
Ok sweet. So a good process looks like:

SSR 2.5 on orange
SSR 1 on orange
Number 7 on white
Number 26 on black

I'll probably order one tonight.

#7 has no polishing property, so would not benefit from using white with it. use black.

i would go with the following combo
ssr 2.5 with white first. if doesn't work after 2 passes, go with orange.
ssr 1 with white
#7 with black
#26 by hand or with black

[TimG]

BTW, if you're going to be using #7, check out the autopia forums for the definitive #7 how-to guide written by Mike Philips of Meguiar's.

#7 is more than just a wax-on, wax-off (no pun intended) product. it has certain characteristics that you should know about in order not to get streaking.

[kaput]

.

[Crymson]

I'm kind of in the same boat regarding not understanding the difference between cutting and polishing, do the cutting pads have their own inherent abasivness, wheras the polishing pads rely solely on the agent applied to them?

[kaput]

.

[Crymson]

Seems logical to me!

[TimG]

#7 is a glaze, not a polish, meaning that when you use it, it's supposed to fill in some of the minor scratches so you don't see them. it doesn't have any abrasive qualities nor will it remove any clear.

A polish has abrasive qualities and will remove clear coat. Polishing compounds also require heat to help break down the abrasives.

This is where the pads come into play. Different pads are made from different materials and have different porosities. This results in certain pads generating more heat than others, all else being equal. By using the same polishing compound, you can adjust how agressive it will be on your paint by changing the pad.

This is the main reason why your simoniz 10" buffer that you buy for $30 at CT won't do anything to your swirlies. the motor is not strong enough to move the pad to generate enough heat to work the polish. This is also the reason why rotaries are "dangerous". they spin fast enough to generate enough heat that will actually burn your paint. The PC is in the middle ground where it generates enough heat to handle say 90% of the work you need to do, but not enough to damage your paint.

Some products, like Meguiar's DACP have "diminishing abbrasives" (woohoo for marketting) where the longer you work the product, the more it breaks down into finer and finer particles so you end up with a finish that doesn't require a final buff with a fine cut polish.

[Crymson]

Wow, ok that's DACP seems like a good touch.

So there is a balance that you have to expermiment with, between aggressive/less aggressive compounds and pads.

So the the best way, just that : to experiment?

Everyone on autopia advises and you guys do to, to "start light, if it doesn't work go stronger"

Would you typically start with SSR 1 / Mcguires 9 or orange or would you try 2.5/Dacp first and then if that didn't do it, step back to the ssr1/mcg 9?

Or would stick with same agent/polish and change pads?

Does it make a huge difference how you go "stronger" either via pad or abbrasive?

[KKY]

When you're first starting, you pretty much have to experiment with different combos. Each situation is different and requires small adjustments to your approach. You have different levels of damage, types of damage, different paint characteristics, different colors, etc.

A combo that works great on one car might create unsatifying results on another. I've experienced this first hand with DACP. That's why you should always start light.

That said, if a car is heavily swirled, I would probably go straight to ssr 2.5. because I know ssr 1 is not abrasive enough and will probably have no effect on heavy swirls. Start with polishing pad first, if that doesn't work go to cutting pad.

After fixing the swirls with ssr 2.5, step down on pad and/or product to shine up the paint.

[kaput]

.

[TimG]

#7 how-to:

http://autopia.org/forum/showthread.php?t=23740

this is a swirl mark removing how-to using the PC:

http://autopia.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14213

also, a thread ranking the relative abrasiveness of different polishes:

http://autopia.org/forum/showthread.php?t=18913

[Mitsu3000gt]

Just so you know, unless your swirles are EXTREMELY minor and shallow, which most people's arent, you won't take anything out with the PC. If you can feel it with your fingernail, the PC won't do much to it. It might if you worked at it for hours. Random orbit polishers are made so that people cannot screw up their paint while polishing, to apply wax and glaze - which translates to almost noo cut/abrasion. If you want to remove anything, you need to pick up a circular polisher, probably a wool pad, compound, foam pads and finishing polish. I reccomend the Makita 9227C for the polisher, the cheapest way to get it is go to RONA ($279) and have them call up House Of Tools, who sells it for $259 and then get them to meet and beat it so you get 10% off $259.

I had the PC and switched it for the Makita. The PC did literally nothing to my swirls, and when I looked again in properautocare.com's website, it even says it won't take out anything but the absolute minimal swirls barely visible to the human eye. Because of this they happily returned my polisher and admitted that there was no way I was going to get the swirls out of my car to the point that I would see NONE with the sun shining on it totally without a circular polisher.

Menzerna and 3M make the best polishes in my opinion.

Mark

[TimG]

your swirlies must've been horrible, because i've managed to get out about 90% of the swirlies from all of the cars i've detailed :dunno: It also depends on the kind of paint the manufacturer uses, too.

Before:
http://www.hostdub.com/albums/zilla_album07/before.sized.jpg (http://www.hostdub.com/zilla_album07:before)

After (the smudging was from the Klasse SG):
http://www.hostdub.com/albums/zilla_album07/after.sized.jpg (http://www.hostdub.com/zilla_album07:after)

This was with Poorboys SSR2.5 and SSR1, Klasse AIO (by hand) and Klasse SG by hand, wipe on, wipe off.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Your right, it depends on the paint. I can still see lots of swirls there in your picture, but your definately reduced them. I want ZERO swirls - and to get that you will need a circular polisher. I also have a black car, so even the minor swirls show up super well.

My swirls aren't bad at all, and are very minor - but none of them would come out with ether me working with the PC or my neighbor, who works at a body shop. That's when he went to get his makita and a wool pad and they all came out - then a foam pad to take out the wool pad marks. He used 3M polish, but alot of brands make really good polishes.

Mark

[Crymson]

Looks pretty swirl free to me.

I think PC will work just fine for what i need, i'll sacrifice a bit less power to not run the risk of ruining the entire paint job. As far as i'm conered, Tim's pics look immaculate, and the swirling i need it get rid of is even less pronounced.

[Crymson]

Ok, so i ordered my pc kit and a bunch of poorboys stuff from eshine.

I pulled kind of a bone headed move (i don't E-shop much) and accidentally bought 3 of SSR 2.5, and 2 bottles of SSR 1.0 -- who knows, i MAY use it, but if not, someone can buy it off me for 16.19$ + GST if they want it.

[TimG]

I'd be interested in buying a bottle of 2.5 off you. i'm almost out.

[car_buffer]

Terms are thrown around loosely now adays, but they still have a different meaning.
They use the term polishing for waxing because you have to polish the wax off to get a mirror shine.

Polishing is used from detail product manufactures in a manner for the retail consumer. Actual polishing is Cut Polishing with a high speed polisher. Remover thin layers of clear which in turn removes webbing, scratches, swirl marks and other defects found in your clear coat.

The Porter Cable polisher is a great polisher and should remove most of the clear coat problems with the right combination of pads. Don't get to carried away with it, you can still cause damage.

Different colors of pads from pad manufactures are for different rates of cutting action. Norton blue pads for medium cutting, generic black foam pads from Lordco medium cutting, most white pads are for finishing, but some black pads you can finish with as well. Just make sure your buying the right pad for the right job and most critical the right compund for the right job. Always start with a mild abbrasive and work from there.

Hope that helps

Car_Buffer

[Jed Bouscal]

I hope I can be of help with the following info:

The abrasiveness of your polishing process is determined by:

a) the aggressiveness of your pad
b) the aggressiveness of your product
c) the method (hand/random orbit/rotary) of application
d) the pressure applied
e) the speed at which the application is moved accross the surface
f) paint temperature/type/condition

Cutting pads are more aggressive than polishing pads, which are more aggressive than finishing pads. Generally, the aggressiveness of the pad is determined by the cell structure and density of the foam. More aggressive pads will have an open cell structure and be more firm, whereas finishing pads are likely to have a closed cell structure.

"Cutting" is just a term for heavy polishing. Polishing and "cutting" are essentially the same thing, either removing clearcoat down to the lowest level of a scratch, or just rounding the edges of a scratch so that it refracts less light and thus is less visible.

If you are going to try to do any heavy paint correction (i.e. swirl removal) with a PC, you will need to use an aggressive pad with an aggressive product at a speed of 5 or 6. Any combination with a PC that will do any serious paint correction will also create a haze. If you follow with a polishing pad and a good polish, and the haze is gone.

I think it's great to learn how to polish your own vehicle. Just be very careful when trying to do any heavy paint correction. There's a fine line between heavy paint correction and damaging your finish, even with a PC.


Originally posted by Moe Man
i think it is point less to pay big dollars to get it done. serously how long is it going to stay clean for....i would rather do it myself.

I've heard statements like this before and unfortunately this is a common misconception about paint polishing. Proper paint polishing corrects flaws, and if properly protected and cared for, the paint will look great for a long long time, and definately better than trying to do it yourself without the proper equipment, knowledge, and experience. Detailing is so much more than 'cleaning'. Having a car properly detailed by a world-class detailer can add hundreds or thousands of dollars to the resale value of your car over time, plus increase your pride in ownership in the meanwhile. Sounds like a smart investment to me.