Prespective from a person who hires.

[Lex350]

Across a couple forums I've read some threads about people's opinions of various companies. As usual, the views tend to be polarized. Add to this that in my current position I have to interview people and make decisions on hiring. I also have to do reviews to determine raise increases and bonus pay-outs.

I have an observation that I'd like some opinions on.


I've noticed that the younger workers these days have an attitude that they are owed something by the company. That just because someone else gets a perk, a raise or a new position that somehow they are owed it too. They tend to always judge their worth on other people's worth and not on a self -evaluation of what they know they are worth as an asset to a company and what compensation they should have. Even when I hire people, it is the younger crowd that is the most demanding.


Of course one of my colleagues was quick just to blame it on being "spoiled brats with sub-standard morals". Another blames it on the economy being so hot; especially in out sector. I dismiss that based on I don’t see it in all the age groups.


Here is my theory. When I hit the work force it was smack in the middle of a recession. Jobs were difficult to find. Pay sucked and there was always the threat of a lay-off so you worked your butt of. People graduating these days from College/University quite often have job offers or are even hired before they graduate.

I think the lack of hard times as given these kids a sense of entitlement. What do you think?


(disclaimer - I'm not saying every young kids is like this. If all you want to do is flame, go away. I'm asking a valid question to a trend I am seeing)

[adamc]

this exact subject came up about 2 hours ago when I had an interview on the 30th floor of a prestigious oil industry tower.


The question was posed to me "do you think you are part of 'the spoiled, or entilted generation, why or why not?"

[benyl]

yeah, but the problem continues because people pay those spoiled brats what they are asking for.

It is just as much the fault of the spoiled / entitled generation as it is the people who hire them.

But this latest generation wants everything easy... just my 2 cents.

[Lex350]

I know it can come off bad from us older guys but I'm really seeing a lot of this and I'm trying to understand why that is.

[Crymson]

Is it a question of entitlement though? It's a question of making sure you maximize what you're worth.

Someone can cross the street, and do the same job for 20k more a year, plus a hefty signing bonus AND have the options they're walking away from paid out, that's not entitlement. That's a competetive job market for employers.

If your employer is trying to guilt you into taking less, as a method of employee retention, your lifespan as a dedicated employee will be short.

Oil companies treat jr employees like slaves, well paid slaves though, i'm not gonig to argue they don't make alot of money, BUT if you stay with the company you started with for 10 years, i'm guessing you'd be behind a guy who jumped ship after 5 years by about 30-50% in wages and level of responsiblity.

There are many ways that employers can retain staff without resorting to skyrocking their salary, but all things being equal, you'd be a fool to expect someone to stay for sub par wages.

[lint]

Originally posted by rotten42
I know it can come off bad from us older guys but I'm really seeing a lot of this and I'm trying to understand why that is.

They just don't seem to have to work as hard to get what they have, or they have more and more given to them. Let the good times roll.

[Si_FlyGuy]

Originally posted by rotten42


I think the lack of hard times as given these kids a sense of entitlement. What do you think?




Originally posted by benyl
yeah, but the problem continues because people pay those spoiled brats what they are asking for.

It is just as much the fault of the spoiled / entitled generation as it is the people who hire them.

But this latest generation wants everything easy... just my 2 cents.

You two are bang on. This generation of graduates don't have to slave for $10-12/hr. A lot of grads turn their noses from $40k jobs nowadays, even adjusting for inflation, it's still a decent starting pay. However, it is a great opportunity for hardworking people to differentiate themselves and move up quickly. The plus side of this economy is that employers have the funds to reward those who work hard.



Originally posted by adamc
this exact subject came up about 2 hours ago when I had an interview on the 30th floor of a prestigious oil industry tower.


The question was posed to me "do you think you are part of 'the spoiled, or entilted generation, why or why not?"

I used to work on the 30th floor of a prestigious oil industry tower heh. Which company, and what was your answer?

[snade831]

Originally posted by adamc
this exact subject came up about 2 hours ago when I had an interview on the 30th floor of a prestigious oil industry tower.


The question was posed to me "do you think you are part of 'the spoiled, or entilted generation, why or why not?"

So what was your answer?

[lint]

Originally posted by Crymson
Is it a question of entitlement though? It's a question of making sure you maximize what you're worth.

Someone can cross the street, and do the same job for 20k more a year, plus a hefty signing bonus AND have the options they're walking away from paid out, that's not entitlement. That's a competetive job market for employers.

If your employer is trying to guilt you into taking less, as a method of employee retention, your lifespan as a dedicated employee will be short.

Oil companies treat jr employees like slaves, well paid slaves though, i'm not gonig to argue they don't make alot of money, BUT if you stay with the company you started with for 10 years, i'm guessing you'd be behind a guy who jumped ship after 5 years by about 30-50% in wages and level of responsiblity.

There are many ways that employers can retain staff without resorting to skyrocking their salary, but all things being equal, you'd be a fool to expect someone to stay for sub par wages.

It's a question of entitlement when the person you are comparing yourself too has 5, 10, 15 years more experience than you do. If all things are equal, then it's a competative market. When you start asking for the world when you really don't have that much to offer, just be careful when the economy takes a down turn. Even in a hot economy, you still have to prove yourself.

[Crymson]

Yah, that's greed though, turns out that's been around for as long as one human realized he could have more than another human.

[Si_FlyGuy]

Anyone wanna set up a union? I'll be Chris Chelios.

[rc2002]

If I was trying to find workers right now, I'd be pretty frustrated too.

You should try to look at it from the employee side. If I see someone getting paid a ton of cash for doing something that I can do better, then why am I being paid less? Employees have the power in a market desperate for workers. Employers will have the power when the market takes a turn for the worse.

[adamc]

My answer was somewhat long-winded, but I think it was more than satisfactory to the people interviewing me..

Basically I brought up my hardworking family history, the fact that I started my career in the field, doing the back breaking physical work, etc..


I won't mention the name of the company, but they're very well known..






It went very well :clap:

[asuth077]

One of my old instructors posed a similar question and handed out an article from the Globe and Mail.

I found a copy on another website.

http://www.bbmcareerdev.com/gen_y.html

It is bang on, it's just becuase we were raised by our parents and told that we deserved and could have anything we wanted.

You know that old saying "I want my children to have everything I didn't."

Well now theres an entire generation walking around demanding it.

[Lex350]

Originally posted by richardchan2002
If I was trying to find workers right now, I'd be pretty frustrated too.

You should try to look at it from the employee side. If I see someone getting paid a ton of cash for doing something that I can do better, then why am I being paid less? Employees have the power in a market desperate for workers. Employers will have the power when the market takes a turn for the worse.


Don’t get me wrong. I've been on both sides of things. If you can do it better then you EARN it on your own merits.

For the record I don't hire people with the entitlement attitude. I look at it as a symptom that they might have other undesirable traits. Some people out there think that the only compensation is money...but it isn't. It's benefit plans, slack days, profit sharing, management style among other things.

[Crymson]

Brillant article, hits the nail on the head. Every fault i have with my current company is identified in that article.

[rc2002]

Originally posted by rotten42



Don’t get me wrong. I've been on both sides of things. If you can do it better then you EARN it on your own merits.

For the record I don't hire people with the entitlement attitude. I look at it as a symptom that they might have other undesirable traits. Some people out there think that the only compensation is money...but it isn't. It's benefit plans, slack days, profit sharing, management style among other things.

A lot of employees are too near sighted to understand that there's anything more important than base salary.

Good on you - I think a lot of companies have a hard time distinguishing who has the entitlement attitude just by conducting an interview. Just wait for the market correction, and I'm sure those attitudes will change. That attitude is so prevalent because the times are so good right now.

[googe]

and from the perspective of a "Gen Y-er"...

the older generation cant get over the fact that there is a boom, there is money, there are people making money, and younger people arent afraid to stand up for themselves. theyre too focused on where they were at during those days, and what they had to do, and how much worse they had it. well, sorry but it isnt those days anymore and its silly to expect young people to make things hard for themselves for no reason. basically, the younger generation is aware that if you dont want to treat them well, there is enough money and opportunity flying around that someone else will.

just because the older generation had to put up with a lot of abuse to keep their jobs doesnt mean the younger generation is somehow wrong or spoiled for not having to.

judging your worth based on what others in your position are getting or what you are capable of getting elsewhere and feeling you are entitled to that is perfectly logical. what is illogical is the notion that it doesnt matter what others are getting, because "back when i was your age..." you didnt have it as good. what do you expect, "oh, i get half as much as ___ doing the same work, but thats fine, im just lucky to have a job".? :rofl:

the sooner the older generation realizes that times are NOT tough, the sooner they will realize why it makes no sense for the younger generation to somehow pretend that they are.

edit:

Originally posted by Si_FlyGuy



A lot of grads turn their noses from $40k jobs nowadays, even adjusting for inflation, it's still a decent starting pay.



see, this makes no sense. how do you blame someone for turning down a 40k job if they have a better offer? why would you WANT to make things worse for yourself?

some older people have some inner personal issue that causes them to be bothered when young people succeed. to be honest, i havent actually encountered that many people that are like that, but the ones that are sure are irritating. its like if youre under 25 and not working hard labor for the last 5 years then you must have cheated or your dad got you the job to some people. sure there are spoiled kids, but believe it or not, it IS possible to be a legitimate employee that is respectful and does their job and knows what they are entitled to, without being spoiled.

i dont think there is so much an entitlement generation as there is an insecure older generation ;)

[~Leah~]

I don't really disagree with that article. Coming from Saskatchewan and being a very observant person, I've noticed a LOT of Gen Y'ers around Calgary that are spoiled and expect these high paying jobs handed to them when they have no experience. Lots of young employees just say the older people are insecure and jealous, but while some are, most are not. They have an outside view, possibly the way I do. I come here after having no less than 2 jobs at a time (and up to 5) since I turned old enough to work, never having my parents give me a cent. I have met some hard working people around here, don't get me wrong, but in a city and province of wealth... SOOOOOO many are spoiled beyond belief! And if they don't get what they want from these companies, Mommy and Daddy will give them some higher up position in their company.

[googe]

haha, actually a few good quotes from the article:


They understand their value and expect you to understand it as well.

Don’t expect them to be like you when you were in their age. Never, and I mean never, start a sentence with “when I was your age”. Ditto, by the way, for your kids….unless, of course, you want to tick them off!

Understand their collegiality: Create strong supportive team environments. Because they have stronger allegiances to each other than their employer, if someone is treated badly, they all react to it.

Don’t assume they are adversarial, or don’t respect you. Actually they like and are comfortable with adults and see them as their friends.

This lack of temerity can lead them to be seen as cocky by their superiors Don’t put limits on what they can and can’t do.

[Lex350]

Originally posted by googe
and from the perspective of a "Gen Y-er"...

the older generation cant get over the fact that there is a boom, there is money, there are people making money, and younger people arent afraid to stand up for themselves. theyre too focused on where they were at during those days, and what they had to do, and how much worse they had it. well, sorry but it isnt those days anymore and its silly to expect young people to make things hard for themselves for no reason. basically, the younger generation is aware that if you dont want to treat them well, there is enough money and opportunity flying around that someone else will.

just because the older generation had to put up with a lot of abuse to keep their jobs doesnt mean the younger generation is somehow wrong or spoiled for not having to.

judging your worth based on what others in your position are getting or what you are capable of getting elsewhere and feeling you are entitled to that is perfectly logical. what is illogical is the notion that it doesnt matter what others are getting, because "back when i was your age..." you didnt have it as good. what do you expect, "oh, i get half as much as ___ doing the same work, but thats fine, im just lucky to have a job".? :rofl:

the sooner the older generation realizes that times are NOT tough, the sooner they will realize why it makes no sense for the younger generation to somehow pretend that they are.

edit:


see, this makes no sense. how do you blame someone for turning down a 40k job if they have a better offer? why would you WANT to make things worse for yourself?

some older people have some inner personal issue that causes them to be bothered when young people succeed. to be honest, i havent actually encountered that many people that are like that, but the ones that are sure are irritating. its like if youre under 25 and not working hard labor for the last 5 years then you must have cheated or your dad got you the job to some people. sure there are spoiled kids, but believe it or not, it IS possible to be a legitimate employee that is respectful and does their job and knows what they are entitled to, without being spoiled.

i dont think there is so much an entitlement generation as there is an insecure older generation ;)

well for me it all comes don’t to whether or not the person had erned it...regardless of age. That’s the point I don’t think most off today’s youth understands...and when a market correction does come, the people with all those false high expectations are going to be the first to go. Problem is they won’t see it coming because they are too full of themselves to see it.



I don’t see insecurity when I an interviewing older candidates. For many I see realism. They have been through the ups and downs and are looking further ahead. The one thing I do see from the older group is that sometimes they sell themselves short.

[Supa Dexta]

Anoter tip..

One page resumes!

Fuck no one cares what your hobbies are, or what awards you got in the spelling bee in grade 4.. Or if it's multipage because you've worked at 19 places in the last 2 yrs... :rolleyes:

Multipage resumes go directly in the can...

[Crymson]

Is sounds to me that you're getting vastly innappropriate applicants, are you hiring professionals, semi professionals, or labourers and retail staff?

My responses have been based on the assumption that you're hiring for for semi-pro, or professional positions requiring a significant education investment.

[foos_guy]

I peronsally don't think it's a sense of entitlement (well, not always, but there's always going to be the spoiled brats out there). If you look at it from an employee's point of view, if they can get a job at company A making $40k/year or work at company B for $50k/year, all other things being equal (ie benefits, days off, etc), why would someone choose company A?

The boom that's currently happening in Alberta is definitely driving salaries up because of the shortage of workers. Graduates coming out of post secondary institutions expect high salaries because if you don't pay it, some other company will.

[Lex350]

Originally posted by Crymson
Is sounds to me that you're getting vastly innappropriate applicants, are you hiring professionals, semi professionals, or labourers and retail staff?

My responses have been based on the assumption that you're hiring for for semi-pro, or professional positions requiring a significant education investment.


hiring professionals.


I also hate cover letters. I find them a complete waste of time.

[Lex350]

Originally posted by foos_guy
I peronsally don't think it's a sense of entitlement (well, not always, but there's always going to be the spoiled brats out there). If you look at it from an employee's point of view, if they can get a job at company A making $40k/year or work at company B for $50k/year, all other things being equal (ie benefits, days off, etc), why would someone choose company A?

The boom that's currently happening in Alberta is definitely driving salaries up because of the shortage of workers. Graduates coming out of post secondary institutions expect high salaries because if you don't pay it, some other company will.


but it's not just salaries. It's position, title..hell even the furniture they sit in. They have no idea or just don't care about anybody but themselves....and in the end that makes for a bad office environment. In the business I'm in you need to develop a good team of people that trust each other. Having a person that just looks after themself is counter productive. That's why we've geared our bonus structure around that. There are three parts to our bonus:
1) Individual performance
2) department performance
3) Company performance.

The bonus is calculated by combining these. If the company does well and the department does well but the individual is a selfish prick...well then that person gets less of a bonus.

In business people figure out real quick who are the cancers that only look out for themselves. The first people to pick them out is a Director/manager/supervisor. They take note and use these people for the time they need them and then punt their ass when the time comes that they don't need to employ as many people.

[AzN'SKillZ]

1) If u hav been working with a company for a long time, around 10 years or so and someone comes in and makes almost as much as u do in a year then maybe u should look in the mirror and blame urself for selling urself short.

2)there are alot of ppl that feel like there entitled to things that there not really worth. byt since the economy is so hot right now they dont hav to worry about not being able to find jobs.

[googe]

Originally posted by rotten42



but it's not just salaries. It's position, title..hell even the furniture they sit in. They have no idea or just don't care about anybody but themselves....and in the end that makes for a bad office environment.

lets face it, titles mean nothing and are a joke. a garbage man is called a waste processing technician. employers name people anything so they can try and make them feel important, but employees arent stupid. furniture is a pretty weak argument as a wage replacement. just because a person stands up for themself doesnt mean they dont care about anybody else. haha if i know what im worth, im not going to take a shitty offer, fancy title and nice office chair or not.

if its not about salaries, why dont you just take a pay cut and give your reports better pay than you and be happy that you have a superior title and the best furniture? the position and title should more than offset your losses ;) then hey, everyone wins!

i think a lot of young people just dont want to be taken advantage of. no one wants to be a gear in the machine that makes you rich, but they obviously dont expect the same compensation managers and seniors get, so the least you can do is pay them what the market dictates. this isnt being selfish, its being reasonable. or you can write them off as a cocky kid, they dont care, the place next door is probably hiring.

[Lex350]

LETS FACE IT, TITLES MEAN NOTHING AND ARE A JOKE. A GARBAGE MAN IS CALLED A WASTE PROCESSING TECHNICIAN. EMPLOYERS NAME PEOPLE ANYTHING SO THEY CAN TRY AND MAKE THEM FEEL IMPORTANT, BUT EMPLOYEES ARENT STUPID.

i guess i repeated myself. in my meaning title is i guess the same as position because it determines for bonus level.

FURNITURE IS A PRETTY WEAK ARGUMENT AS A WAGE REPLACEMENT.

not in all cases. believe me, there are companies where the employees know if the guy at the end of the building got an extra foot on their work station (cough, cough telus.)

JUST BECAUSE A PERSON STANDS UP FOR THEMSELF DOESNT MEAN THEY DONT CARE ABOUT ANYBODY ELSE. HAHA IF I KNOW WHAT IM WORTH, IM NOT GOING TO TAKE A SHITTY OFFER, FANCY TITLE AND NICE OFFICE CHAIR OR NOT.

i'm not saying that. as I stated before some people sell themselves short. Look, if a younger person comes through the door and impresses the hell out of me. i will do what it takes to hire them. this person is different from the majority of younger people i see these days. Their qualifications are average at best and they have the attitude and demands of someone with 5-10 years experience. hiring that kind of person can disrupt an environment that up until then had worked very well together.

I guess it depends on what you consider a shitty offer these days, I don't think many employers are offering well below what their competition is....but at the same time they need to keep a balance in the office.



IF ITS NOT ABOUT SALARIES, WHY DONT YOU JUST TAKE A PAY CUT AND GIVE YOUR REPORTS BETTER PAY THAN YOU AND BE HAPPY THAT YOU HAVE A SUPERIOR TITLE AND THE BEST FURNITURE? THE POSITION AND TITLE SHOULD MORE THAN OFFSET YOUR LOSSES ;) THEN HEY, EVERYONE WINS!



Because I proved I'm worth it. I was head hunted because of my abilities. The difference being...I EARNED IT.

I THINK A LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE JUST DONT WANT TO BE TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF. NO ONE WANTS TO BE A GEAR IN THE MACHINE THAT MAKES YOU RICH, BUT THEY OBVIOUSLY DONT EXPECT THE SAME COMPENSATION MANAGERS AND SENIORS GET, SO THE LEAST YOU CAN DO IS PAY THEM WHAT THE MARKET DICTATES.

That’s no different from any other employee.



THIS ISNT BEING SELFISH, ITS BEING REASONABLE. OR YOU CAN WRITE THEM OFF AS A COCKY KID, THEY DONT CARE, THE PLACE NEXT DOOR IS PROBABLY HIRING.



I just think you are missing the distinction I was trying to explain in the first post. Not all young workers these days are ungrateful blood suckers that want the world handed to them without earning it.....but there are many like that.

[Crymson]

What are some of the examples of "entitlement" that people think they deserve?

When i accepted my first full time professional job, i made sure that I was going to get options, stock plans, and adequet holidays (3 weeks + EDO's), and I made sure that I was going to be accepting a postion doing work i wanted to do. I did my research and the salary i was offered was well into the 95% percentile according to the Apega and CSEG publications of member's salaries -- i was pretty happy.

I don't think that i was being demanding, and i didn't demand anything that they didn't offer. I wouldn't have accepted and offer that didn't include those things, but i wasn't trying to get a signing bonus right out of college.

[Lex350]

Some of the entitlement that I have seen

Demanding a salary far about what the market is paying for that position and that experience.

After they have been hired, they want a promotion after 3 months with more pay and more authority

Dictating the type of work they will do within the job description laid out for them. Funny, I though the employer drew up the job description.

Demanding more holidays than people who have worked with the company for 10 years have. I mean really, you are fresh out of school, no experience and then you tell me that you want 6 weeks off so you can go to Europe....WTF?

Dictating your hours to me rather than going by the office hours...oh and if that isn’t enough your hours get to change at will. That may work at some companies but when your business involved dealing with an Eastern time zone that just doesn’t work.

Demanding all new computer equipment. The one that was offered in this case was a 3 month old p4 with 1 gig memory and 256 graphics card.....WTF?

Suggesting that they get a company credit card and cell phone even though they are inside employees. This one was stated in an interview.

"I don't do overtime"....then don't go in this industry.


These are just a few examples that I have had from young recruits.



Some reasonable requests I've had:

Training that will benefit both the employee and the company.

Performance reviews at three months and at 6 months with clear targets set for improvements and possibly a raise.

Extra time off - unpaid

A request to shrink the hours worked in the day (pro-rated) to accommodate a mother returning to the work force.



There are more. In all cases they were reasonable requests that help both the company and the employee.


Any good employer isn't out there to screw over people. They want to find good people that will grow and stay with the company. Training people costs allot of money and it is hard to put a price tag on experience. That's why these days put more weight on a persons personality, attitude and how well I think they will get along with the team. People can be taught a job but you can’t change their personality.



Again, let's not polarize this so much. I was speaking in general terms. Not all young workers are like this. But you will find this attitude more prevalent in the younger generation by far.

[googe]

some of those are actually pretty funny :rofl:

nothing wrong with saying what type of work youre willing to do though.

[Lex350]

Originally posted by googe
some of those are actually pretty funny :rofl:

nothing wrong with saying what type of work youre willing to do though.


then why apply for the job if you don't want to do the work advertised?

[tirebob]

What really gets me is when you have employees who think that because they have put in more time, they deserve more money... PERIOD.

It don't work that way. You deserve more money as you become more productive and better for the company. I have had guys that in 3 months are 10 times the employee that the guy right beside them is after 10 years. To me that is the guy that deserves the raise because he actually gives a shit.

What also picks my ass is the guy that says "pay me more money and I will work harder". Fack that! Work your ass off and show me that you are worth more money!

When I came up, if I felt I wasn't making enough money I would work harder and show I was worth more money. If they didn't see it I would "ASK" them what I could do to help me make more money, instead of just demanding more money. If they couldn't help I would still work my ass off until I got noticed by another person/company who would approach me and offer me more money/opportunity than I was getting where I was working. If I ever hit a wall in a job where I was topped out on funds and/or the chance to advance, I would have to make a decision... "Am I happy doing this until the day I die or is it time to move on?" I would always move on to better things.

With this attitude I have never been out of work... I have always been at the top of my game... I have always been paid top dollar for my industry... I have always had first chance at opportunity and advancement... And to this day I always have other companies head hunting me as I have a reputation in my chosen industry that follows me wherever I go.

To many people think that they are owed by the company UNJUSTLY, and if they are actually owed something that they are not getting, if they are at all worth their salt, good things will come around to balance it out, in their current position or elsewhere. If it doesn't, they probably aren't owed even half of what they think...

[szw]

Why do they feel entitled? Perhaps it is because they have better writing skills than OP?

[kaput]

.

[Supa Dexta]

How about this one (I may be a bit biased)

Workers that come from the east are often harder workers and complain less then the home grown's.. Its not hard to understand why, so few jobs in the east, we work hard to get and keep them.. Provided they can handle living away from home, you'll often have a better employee if they come from the east, or if they simply weren't above middle class growing up locally then they will respect the job they have... You grow up a whiney little kid that gets what they want, they will bring that with them into adulthood... Once this boom slows, theres going to be a lot of unhappy, sooky workers around...

[TimG]

about demaning excessively high salaries:

everybody knows that when an employer makes an offer, that offer is not set in stone.

and when you're at an interview and you are asked "so what do you expect for a salary" you can seriously lower your earnings if you lowball what you want.

The employer wants you for the least possible salary, and you want the highest possible salary. somewhere in hte middle there is equilibrium.

Also, the days where you could get a job at a big company and stay with them until you retire are long gone. Companies have been cutting benefits and such to employees for a long time. You have to expect that potential employees want to milk every last cent from their employer because they might not be there in a few years.

That said, i do think that it is unreasonable for a new grad (or anyone with less than 5 years of experience in the real world) to be hired and expect to get a corner office with mahogany furniture that costs more than my car and have a secretary and be a project/team leader/manager.

I think some of this comes from the way gen-Y'ers are brought up in school where the teachers have the mentallity of "oh, we can't fail little johnny even tho he did no work all year. it would be bad for his ego." They eventually learn that they can slack and still get by fairly well and come to expect this type of behaviour when they leave school.

As for the whole thing about job titles: like others have said, the only thing that it matters for is salary and raises. at the end of the day, you and your co-workers still go home and eat/sleep/whatever. IF anything, having fancy job titles combined with an attitude of entitlement is a bad combination.

[MrPid]

I'm witnessing the same phenomenon...I thought it was just me going senile...

The answer for a lot of companies is outsourcing if they can...

Some of my colleagues are importing their lower paid labor from other countries like the Phillipines.

I think all the previous posters have got most of the facts right. One thing that I notice though is the effect of technology and convenience on things. For example, we have calgaryjobshop.com and monster.ca where people can shop employers much more efficiently (and of course its the younger generations that are more tech savy using them).

On top of that we are becoming less labor centered or if you like opposed to physical activity. Note our obesity rates rising. I think that the younger generations are less willing to pay those dues on labor intensive jobs.

As an example and though it doesn't pertain to employment it is relevant to the "entitlement" and lack of interest in physical activity to your own benefit. It's sad and funny though. I married somebody who already had a girl from a previous thing. Our daughter is now 14 and turned into a little hottie and has a boyfriend. (No I don't consider her that way!). Normally, as a parent I would be concerned about her sexual promiscuity, etc.. But I'm not at all...

Simply, because where we live there is no public transportation. I can walk from one end of the town to the other in 1/2 an hour. These "kids" can't be bothered to even ride their bikes across town to see each other let alone walk - they always want to be driven. I laugh when I think about it because I remember myself at that age as willing to brave a blizzard in a bathing suit if I had the opportunity for a little slap and tickle. Hell, I had to walk a couple of miles in each direction to the girlfriends house and did often!

It's not entirely employment related but I think it's a good example of how persistent the attitude seems to be towards physical activity and manual labor. My daughter was supposed to be doing odd jobs this summer to make a few bucks but has yet to do anything and summer is halfway over. I know full well though that she won't suffer for a lack of anything and everything will be done and provided for her even if I am opposed to it. I call that crappy parenting but I can do little to affect it in this case for many reasons.

I personally think entitlement parenting is crap - and thank god my other kids (from my wife and I together) are not going to be treated that way. Hopefully it will pay off for them when they are ready to enter the work force...

[dub_c]

I'm 19, I work my ass off for the things I want. All the stuff in my life that I own, I've worked for it. I've grown up on a small rural town in Sask, doing alot more physical labor then most kids have ever done in their life, period.


Originally posted by ~Leah~
I don't really disagree with that article. Coming from Saskatchewan and being a very observant person, I've noticed a LOT of Gen Y'ers around Calgary that are spoiled and expect these high paying jobs handed to them when they have no experience.

Must be a Sask thing :D

[MrPid]

Originally posted by dub_c
I'm 19, I work my ass off for the things I want. All the stuff in my life that I own, I've worked for it. I've grown up on a small rural town in Sask, doing alot more physical labor then most kids have ever done in their life, period.



Must be a Sask thing :D

Yes, and you've developed a work ethic that will likely carry you farther through life...

[Unknown303]

I am currently a student at SAIT taking the EET program and i see lots of people who come through expecting the world after.

TO be honest i don't even know how much i am going to except coming out. There are a lot of things i have to consider when looking for a future job. But i have put in lots of hard work with Transport companies, Pipeline companies, well services, valve repair companies, even manage a restaraunt for a while. And i might even go back to doing physical work because i was considering apprenticing as an electrician now.

I'm just looking to get somewhere and if that means working my ass off then so be it. Hopefully come next spring when i am looking for work there will be an employer who appreciates the fact that i want to get somewhere.

But there are the kids even in my program that this it will all come on a silver platter. and its rather sickening.

[tirebob]

Education is a good thing for certain, but it does not really teach good work ethics. That is something that is usually developed right through youth into adulthood, and if you don't have it, I don't care how much schooling you have... you will still end up a lousy employee.

I will hire and promote a hardworking high school dropout long before a slack assed university grad...

[Crymson]

I'm sorry to say, but most people won't get though university without a pretty strong work ethic, definately not a B.SC or B.eng, takes a pretty strong will to fight through 4 hrs of class and 4-5 hrs of labs a day consistently for 4+ years.

[tirebob]

Originally posted by Crymson
I'm sorry to say, but most people won't get though university without a pretty strong work ethic, definately not a B.SC or B.eng, takes a pretty strong will to fight through 4 hrs of class and 4-5 hrs of labs a day consistently for 4+ years. I am not saying they are able at accomplishing something they put there mind to, but book smarts and everyday smarts are 2 different things. I have had both University grads and drop outs work for me, and if they have bad work ethic they have bad work ethic. It doesn't matter how many degrees they have. Some people make excellent "professional" students, but in the work force they are useless...

By no means am I saying that Grads are all lazy... I am saying that hard workers are hard workers... Schooling or not. Many grads are awesome and many are not. Many high school drop outs are awesome and many are not. If someone wants to work and they show me that, great. If they think that they are better than another guy because they went to university and that they are above certain jobs because of it, then they are not so great...

[max_boost]

Well said Bob! I agree 100%.

Even for a small family restaurant I find it difficult to hire people sometimes. The turnover is so high in the industry and everyone expects so much. For now I just rely mostly on my network of friends and family to fill the void when I need it.

[Crymson]

Originally posted by CMSbob
I am not saying they are able at accomplishing something they put there mind to, but book smarts and everyday smarts are 2 different things. I have had both University grads and drop outs work for me, and if they have bad work ethic they have bad work ethic. It doesn't matter how many degrees they have. Some people make excellent "professional" students, but in the work force they are useless...

By no means am I saying that Grads are all lazy... I am saying that hard workers are hard workers... Schooling or not. Many grads are awesome and many are not. Many high school drop outs are awesome and many are not. If someone wants to work and they show me that, great. If they think that they are better than another guy because they went to university and that they are above certain jobs because of it, then they are not so great...


Oh, i totally know what you mean, don't get me wrong, and i understand your situation. I just don't like the stereotype that upper middle class university grad's are lazy, and I simply wanted to point out that getting a degree these days isn't easy, and it's definately a time and effort commitment worth commending.

But, I have to agree with you -- alot of people are fucking lazy, educated or not.

However, back to the "entitlement" issue, i think it's also a matter of options.

As CMSBob pointed out, he's had some great, hard working high school dropouts. However, from Bob's point of view, every single high school dropout is going to have to prove himself. So for that dropout to land a job in the first place is commendable, but he has to work to keep it. Once he's worked his ass off, he has proved himself to Bob, but he doesn't have a document saying "I've proved myself hard working", like come kind of voucher that he could take to another employer, who may pay more than Bob. So lacking that, he's stuck with Bob (not that Bob is cheap, i'm just trying to point out the basis of the theoretical situation).

However, any eductation person DOES have, essentially, that voucher in the terms of their degree, so the "entitlement" that we've been argueing about, comes from the fact that an eductated professional knows he has more options which are afforded to him or her by their degrees and professional accolades.

[abyss]

Bringing guys from the maritimes has been the smartest thing my company did this year. We have two guys right now that are doing the work of 4 of our regular guys. Granted, they each get paid double what our regular guys are paid, but we're getting our work done twice as fast. :clap: I've seen some pretty bad Gen Y resumes come through lately. They'd almost be better to come in empty handed than to send in such a shitty resume. I'm not even that old (technically I'm in the Gen Y category), but I had to work my ass of to get to where I am. 70-90 hour work weeks were not a stranger to me 4 years ago, and I wasn't even getting paid close what I was worth. These are the guys who are going to replace all the baby boomers in the work force, pretty chilling reality.

[Melinda]

Originally posted by abyss
I'm not even that old (technically I'm in the Gen Y category), but I had to work my ass of to get to where I am. 70-90 hour work weeks were not a stranger to me 4 years ago, and I wasn't even getting paid close what I was worth.
Werd, I'm a gen-Y as well and I'm one who also thinks I dont really fit into the "gimmie gimmie" mold. Not to say they arent out there, I see tons of people my age, younger and even a few years older, sponging off their parents and society in general. The attitude is defiantely there and with it, a complete and total lack of respect for the world around them.

However, I'm getting a little freakin sick of hearing people say "I worked hard labour for years, I have the work eithic of a horse" Tons of people work hard labour, often cause they're too lazy or dumb to try at anything remotely mentally stimulating. Not saying this applies to everyone who works hard labour, it does help build work eithic for a lot of people, but there are tons of men and women who will go out, do their 'hard labour' till the time clock rings and they cant get out of there fast enough at the end of the day. They dont know the meaning of the work or what it means to be able to do that job. Work ethic means nothing to them, they just do what's required to get by on the job. People who dont work labour jobs can develop just as strong of a work ethic as labourers, sometimes even more so. In my opinion, a suit who works 70 hour work weeks has just as great of dedication and work ethic as the rig pig who's working 70 hour weeks of labour. Same with a single mom who works 3 jobs just to make ends meet so that her family will have a place to live and food to eat.

I've spent most of my working life working in a family business. Any of you who have done that (and I'm sure sam can vouch for this) will know that family business is absolutely no picnic. Parents are be more strict and unbending because they're not a boss, they're parents. You are often expected to forego any sort of life you wanted to have in order to work weekends and evenings (free and unpaid too) because you "owe" it to the household. It's only been in the last few years that I've started to be really paid on a regular basis for working with my parents.

And on top of working in a family business since I was 8 (yes, that's right, 8 years old. No slave driver shit, but easy stuff that made things easier for my parents) I also had my first outside job at age 11, getting paid $4.50 an hour for 5 years with the responsibilities of a fully paid adult employee. Since then I've had several jobs that I stuck with for no less than 2 years each. I currently still work at my family business, I own my own company and I have a part time position that spans pretty much the length of the "car season" every year.

When it comes down to it, it's the parenting and how the kids were raised. I heard a lot of the "I want my little girl to have the things I didnt" when I was a kid, but we struggled when I was little and my parents finally decided to start their business and build themselves into a success. I watched that all my life and learned from it. Kids who were born with a silver spoon in their mouths (sort to speak) where parents didnt want their kids to have to have a job until they were ready to get a career after college will obviously think that of themselves and develop the "gimmie gimmie" attitude cause everything is handed to them. Most kids dont get jobs till they're almost finished high school now, and they live at home till they're 25.

There still are a good number of hard workers in Gen-y, but I shudder to think what the next generation will be like when the "gimmie gimmie" kids turn into parents who spoil the crap out of their kids. 25 years from now, our economy will be full of unemployed CEO wanna-be's and no one working the macdonald's drive thru.

[tirebob]

Originally posted by Melinda


However, I'm getting a little freakin sick of hearing people say "I worked hard labour for years, I have the work eithic of a horse" Tons of people work hard labour, often cause they're too lazy or dumb to try at anything remotely mentally stimulating. Not saying this applies to everyone who works hard labour, it does help build work eithic for a lot of people, but there are tons of men and women who will go out, do their 'hard labour' till the time clock rings and they cant get out of there fast enough at the end of the day. They dont know the meaning of the work or what it means to be able to do that job. Work ethic means nothing to them, they just do what's required to get by on the job. People who dont work labour jobs can develop just as strong of a work ethic as labourers, sometimes even more so. In my opinion, a suit who works 70 hour work weeks has just as great of dedication and work ethic as the rig pig who's working 70 hour weeks of labour. Same with a single mom who works 3 jobs just to make ends meet so that her family will have a place to live and food to eat.

I have to agree... When I talk about "working your ass off" and having a strong work ethic, I definitely am not referring strictly to manual labour. I don't care if your job is to answer telephones, change tires, shipping products, filing paperwork, or whatever... If you choose to accept a job, do the best damn job you can possibly do! That is busting your ass... If you can do what you do better than anyone else around you, you will always end up getting ahead, whether it is in money, or into a better position. Even the most trivial of jobs can be done poorly or well... If you do it well, you will stand out.

[403Gemini]

I can see the standpoint from both employer and employee.

Heres my opinion and im 23

I fully agree with rotten. The newer generation doesn't have any respect for their jobs. They call in for weekends and say they arent coming in, if they get fired, they dont care. They just walk accross the street and find another one that pays the same. Thus making it very difficult to find honest, hard working employees who dont piss and moan the entire time.

Yet on the employee standpoint i can see how it can be frustrating too. With todays inflation and the recent increase in real estate prices, that $12/hr job just wont cut it. I make 34,000 a year and i busted my nuts off to get here. I started working when i was in grade 8 for $4.00 an hour under the table for one of my dads friends (i got a "raise" to $6.00/hr when i said i should AT LEAST be making minimum wage). Since then ive worked at a movie theatre, a restaurant, 3 retail stores(A&B sound,staples, and futureshop), a td canada trust, and now ING insurance. ive been on every type of pay, hourly, commision, and salary, and the first 2 are very tough. Ive been working the last 10 years of my life to get this far. I also finished high school and went to mt royal college. Its been a long journy, but i've finally landed an "entry" level job where i can keep climbing, and im happy.

What i hate seeing is going to mcdonalds and seeing a 30 yr old manager screaming at a poor 16 yr old girl about not making fries fast enough rendering her into tears. Ive actually yelled at a manager for doing that to employees. All he taught that girl was she should find a new job. He didnt help her get faster at what she was doing, he wasnt offering her any support, instead he went on his power trip mode and went off on her. THAT teaches kids lack of respect for their job. what do they care if they're just goign to get in shit and thats their first "flavor" of "work." It happened when i was young too, older managers coming down or pushing over younger kids. Management tried it when i was working at every retail job. future shop i finally started standing up for myself and just said "no" to half the shit they asked. One of the older employees who worked there taught me that. He was about 35 and said stick up for yourself. the management knows they can screw around with the younger crowd.

its tough though. how are you supposed to teach kids respect for a job when theres so many opportunities, yet, none of them pay well enough for anybody to want to stay in them? mall jobs pay what? $8 hr?

edit: oh and i FULLY agree with melinda! i HATE those kids whose parents didnt make them work until college or even AFTER college! they didnt learn shit and come out of school saying 'Give me a high paying job!'

THOSE are the kids who snub away $40k yr jobs cause they think they are "worth" more.

its why most people who join the police with lots of education quit after a year or two. they dont understand that you start at the bottem regardless of education. you work your nuts off for that $38k a yr on the force(or however much they make starting) and are STUCK there for about 5 years.

[Twatson]

I see it everyday where i work, i'm in middle of the field, im a supervisor within my company. not entry level, not a manager, but a supervisor,so im in the middle and the people that i supervise are anywhere from 18 to 45.

The older people seem to be ok with everything, but some of the younger ones, seem to think that since others within there age range get a promotion or get gratification for something they have done well, they are entitled to something as well, even though they have done nothing to show the company that they DO deserve some sort of "pat on the back"

I feel it is because of the spoiled brat syndrome and in part with the abundance of jobs that are available to them now.

It almost seems like they think if they don't get what they want they can just go somewhere else to get it. Its kind of sickening to think that the work ethic for some has come down to gimme a promotion because he/she got one or i'll quit and get it somewhere else.

But for those who have a good work ethic and enjoy proving themselves, not only to thier employers but to themselves as well, thank you. we need more of you in the work force today.

[HybridTheory]

Well for me, I worked my ass off to pay for my education. I worked part-time all through out high school and university so that I wouldn't have to take out a student loan. I worked five days a week and went to school full time. I decided to do this so that I wouldn't have to burden my mom (who's a single parent) with the added cost of my education. I graduated in June and now I work at a decent entry level job that will help me in the long run.

I hate my friends who have parents who offer to pay for their education and yet they still won't take it. It pisses me off that they have a chance to go to school and make something of themselves but yet their so damn lazy to do anything. Also there are my friends who's parents pay for their education and yet they can't even be bothered with to get up to go to class. These are the type of people who think that they're entitled to something and it's pretty pathetic.

[Woz]

Being from Winnipeg (just finished university) and now comming out here had really opened my eyes. I was one of those guys who came out of university with a job already locked up, but i truely believe that i worked for it. Anyone can cruise through life making a decent wage staying under the radar and doing the bare minimum. I believe that having these type of people around for alot of years is as much a fault of the management of the company as it is the employee.

I am not trying to bash management as i am a part of it in my job here in Calgary, but i have noticed that there are alot of older employees out there who are meerly waiting for retirement doing the bare minimum. I know there are younger workers who are milking the system, but there are probally a proportional amount of older workers doing the same thing as well, i think this one is a wash. Trust me though, if some guy i work with is a lazy ass, you can be sure that i will do everthing in my power to differentiate myself from him and show the boss what he is really like.

I guess to answer the threads question, yes i do believe that the kids of today demand higher starting wages and progression through their prospective companies, but ultimately it is up to managemtent to observe to determine if the worker is fit for the progression. Although i agree that the quality might be going down because of the high demand. Plus in this market the starting wages are going to be higher with less and less experienced workers, but with the way the cost of living is going up who can blame them for trying.

[steverules]

Originally posted by Supa Dexta
How about this one (I may be a bit biased)

Workers that come from the east are often harder workers and complain less then the home grown's.. Its not hard to understand why, so few jobs in the east, we work hard to get and keep them.. Provided they can handle living away from home, you'll often have a better employee if they come from the east, or if they simply weren't above middle class growing up locally then they will respect the job they have... You grow up a whiney little kid that gets what they want, they will bring that with them into adulthood... Once this boom slows, theres going to be a lot of unhappy, sooky workers around...


I agree, when I was in a management postion, I will never understand it!

another thing, I don't care what you are aplying for, why in gods name why would u wear jeans and a hoodie! like holeeee! I dunno, people need to realize that they are selling themselves, and appearance is the first and last impression someone has of you!

[Woz]

IF they are wearing that then send them right back out the door as soon as they come in.

[steverules]

lol, I agree.... Imean I would never wear jeans to an interview, i don't care what they look like! DON'T!

[black_2.5RS]

I do recruiting for one of the larger firms downtown and I personally think that new grads are waaaaay too focused on salary. I agree that you need a certain amount to survive, pay bills and to keep in your jeans but there is the overall package that many do not consider. I work in the IT field and training is paramount to keeping your skills updated and to stay in demand. I can't think of too many (if any) companies that would gladly hand over $10,000/yr in training - yet the candidate does not factor this in.

As a result, we have basically stopped looking to hire fresh grads and have started to turn to those people that have 1-2 yrs experience in whatever oil&gas company downtown - who clearly make more money but realize that their job is teaching them nothing and they are basically getting all ambition beaten out of them. I know b/c I was one of them. I left a big financial trading firm that wouldn't even pay for a $60 book from Chapters - that helped me maintain their network. I was pissed and left. Waaay happier now and my salary has totally caught up and surpassed many of my peers who stayed in industry (mind you my pay sucked the first couple of years - but i'm caught up at this point).

[Woz]

Originally posted by black_2.5RS


As a result, we have basically stopped looking to hire fresh grads and have started to turn to those people that have 1-2 yrs experience in whatever oil&gas company downtown - who clearly make more money but realize that their job is teaching them nothing and they are basically getting all ambition beaten out of them. I know b/c I was one of them. I left a big financial trading firm that wouldn't even pay for a $60 book from Chapters - that helped me maintain their network. I was pissed and left. Waaay happier now and my salary has totally caught up and surpassed many of my peers who stayed in industry (mind you my pay sucked the first couple of years - but i'm caught up at this point).

I think the people need to realize that the oil industry is causing demand in other industries and to be succesful in Calgary you can work in other areas. I am not in the oil industry and doing just fine.

[Super_Geo]

The only reason that young professionals can make demands for high salaries is because the industry is so fat right now... this would never happen in lean times. So if the company is making record profits what's wrong with getting the most that you're worth? You guys make it seem honorable to whore yourself out to a company for less than you can get.... why?? That isn't something I would ever be happy about, nevermind proud of! As in:


Originally posted by abyss I've seen some pretty bad Gen Y resumes come through lately. They'd almost be better to come in empty handed than to send in such a shitty resume. I'm not even that old (technically I'm in the Gen Y category), but I had to work my ass of to get to where I am. 70-90 hour work weeks were not a stranger to me 4 years ago, and I wasn't even getting paid close what I was worth. These are the guys who are going to replace all the baby boomers in the work force, pretty chilling reality.

And working 12+ hours a day while not being compensated properly makes you a better employee how? What is with this undying loyalty to the company that is laughing all the way to the bank while cashing in on the work you are doing? You have to be loyal to #1, straight up. If you find a better oppertunity that pays $10-20k/year more than your current job, what's stopping you from leaving? The inconvience to the company that is making millions more in profit than before while doing the exact same work? Give me a break. The market giveth, and the market will one day taketh away.

When I applied to jobs halfway through 4th year I was pretty clear on what I wanted, and some (very few... I think maybe 2 in total) HR people acted as if I was asking for the moon. I don't think my requests were ridiculous:

1. If you want an in person interview, pay for my return flight from Kingston (ontario) to Calgary. There is no way I am flying back out of my own pocket during the semester just so you can meet me in person. If the company really can't spare that money, what's wrong with a phone interview? Or hell, join the 21st century and use video conferencing.

2. Most companies wanted an immediate start after graduation (so first week of May). I was dead set about deferring the start date until at least July so I could see Europe. I have been living ridiculously fruguly for the past 4 years out East and I want a chance to fully experience Europe before I'm cut down to 2 weeks of vacation a year.

3. A performance review at the 3 and 8 month marks. I think most companies do a performance review at the end of 3 as part of policy, as that is when the probationary period ends. Throw in the 8 though because with smaller-mid-sized engineering firms the constant cycling of staff means that new employees will get a shitload of responsibility pretty quickly. If in 8 months I have the same responsibility as EITs who have worked for 3 years in industry, I expect to be compensated accordingly. That doesn't mean I have to make the same as them, but definately more than the initial salary.

So anyway, post phone interview I get a call back from this one company (which will remain unnamed) after I had sent them my counteroffer, with the deferred start date and request for performance reviews. The HR guy hadn't even read it, and when I told him about what it entailed he just scoffed and said that it was 'ridiculous' from someone with 0 industry experience, and was trying to tell me to just take the orignal offer while it's still out there and stop these "pipe dreams"!!!

What the shit?! I quickly told him the details of the other offers I had on the table, and that I would not need to hear back from his company again. If you want a grad from the toughest engineering concentration in one of the best schools in Canada you better be ready to make some allowances. Does that make me snobby or a "gimmie" kid? Fuck no. I know what my market value is, and if some 40 year old HR dinosaur can't apprechiate it, there are countless companies in Calgary that can. Keep in mind: I don't feel that I am ENTITLED to make these demands when job hunting, but with the state of the industry I know that I have the stroke to do it. It is taking advantage of the situation.


Originally posted by 403Gemini
edit: oh and i FULLY agree with melinda! i HATE those kids whose parents didnt make them work until college or even AFTER college! they didnt learn shit and come out of school saying 'Give me a high paying job!'

THOSE are the kids who snub away $40k yr jobs cause they think they are "worth" more.


I didn't work in high school, but I worked my ass off every summer in university. My parents didn't make me work in high school because those are some of the best years of your life, and if you don't need to, there's no reason to stand in front of a deep fryer for a good chunk of that time. So what's wrong with that? And don't get me wrong... I didn't come from a rich family with old money. Quite the contrary, my parents are 1st generation immigrants and we spent the first 3 years in Canada in a 1 bedroom basement while my parents finished their graduate degrees.

And yeah, $40k/year jobs get snubbed before the offer letter is fully out of the envelope. Three of my close friends who went through the exact same program and university I did all applied to jobs working downtown O/G. When we did the math afterwards, 55k was the average starting salary that these companies offered us. So we don't just "think" we are worth more than 40k, we definately ARE worth more in the current state of the industry. I cannot stress that point enough. If I were to go work in Ontario in a lean industry, I would probably take whatever I could get. That just happens to not be the case. The O/G companies are desperate for capable people and are willing to pay for it. To not take advantage of that is just preposterous.

[Crymson]

You requests aren't unreasonable? HR must have givent you attitude for other reasons.

Most places pay for both your flight and out and return flight for an in person interview, and lost of people deferr their start dates by a month or two if they can afford it. Mabye you expected your salary to go up fast with the preformace reviews?

[Super_Geo]

Ah re-read that section and forgot to add that the company was pretty small (~35people), offered a starting salary of $46k, which I countered w/ 55k, and when asked what my expectations were of them I made some passing comment about how it would be really nice to start in an office and not a cube (which is standard with most other eng companies). It wasn't one of the companies I was really stoked to work for so I thought I'd just request what everyone else was offering anyway, but I guess that didn't quite fly with them.

But yeah, almost all the companies offered to pay for the flights for the interview and also had no problems with the start dates. I just brought up those 2 HR guys in particular because they sound a lot like some of the sentiment in this thread...


But shit, I should've applied to EnCana... they are paying new eng hires $68k/year, with benefits!

[Si_FlyGuy]

Originally posted by Super_Geo
Ah re-read that section and forgot to add that the company was pretty small (~35people), offered a starting salary of $46k, which I countered w/ 55k, and when asked what my expectations were of them I made some passing comment about how it would be really nice to start in an office and not a cube (which is standard with most other eng companies). It wasn't one of the companies I was really stoked to work for so I thought I'd just request what everyone else was offering anyway, but I guess that didn't quite fly with them.

But yeah, almost all the companies offered to pay for the flights for the interview and also had no problems with the start dates. I just brought up those 2 HR guys in particular because they sound a lot like some of the sentiment in this thread...


But shit, I should've applied to EnCana... they are paying new eng hires $68k/year, with benefits!

I think that most people would be pissed if someone with no experience expects the red carpet to be rolled out for them. If you are not willing to prove yourself before demanding luxuries, what does that speak of your work ethic? Not only did your comment to the HR reps lack tact, they also inferred that you are the kind that expects to be entitled to work 6 hour days while take a 1.5 hour lunch. Definitely not someone I would be able to count on, come crunch time, at my company. Why would I hire you when there're other people who have a history of hardwork and gradually increasing responsibility and excellence?

In my opinion, the demands should come after you have proven yourself; and in my experience the rewards come automatically when you have separated yourself from the rest of the field thru excellence and hard work.

Did Encana offer that salary to new hires with experience or new hires without? It's rare that university grads would start that high unless they know someone or are at the top of their class.

[Super_Geo]

Originally posted by Si_FlyGuy
I think that most people would be pissed if someone with no experience expects the red carpet to be rolled out for them. If you are not willing to prove yourself before demanding luxuries, what does that speak of your work ethic?

Red carpet? I was just asking for compensation that's in line with the industry standard. It was either that or just tell him that I was simply not interested... but I figure since we're already in discussion I might as well give them a chance. If they can offer mid 50s or higher then I would consider working for them (as I mentioned, they were not a company I was particulairly stoked to work for, and had better options on hand in terms of pay and career growth with other companys).

What you say about "proving yourself before demanding luxuries" (which would imply something outside of the norm... which is not at all what I was requesting) makes no sense whatsoever. Why would I want to start at a company that's playing me 10k/year less than just about every one of its competitors... so that I can prove myself to them in __ number of months and then finally be on par with the rest of the companies' starting salaries? That doesn't add up to me, you'll have to explain where you're coming from with that.


Why would I hire you when there're other people who have a history of hardwork and gradually increasing responsibility and excellence?

Because you have a slim chance of getting me to sign on for 46k... if you're looking at someone who has a work history long enough to satisfy your "hardwork and excellence" criteria that probability drops to 0.


Not only did your comment to the HR reps lack tact

I don't see how it lacked tact. I was telling him what I was offered by just about every other company I talked to, and letting him know what my bottom line is.


they also inferred that you are the kind that expects to be entitled to work 6 hour days while take a 1.5 hour lunch. Definitely not someone I would be able to count on, come crunch time, at my company.

Really, and you're getting all that from the fact that I wasn't going to be all smiles and rainbows about a job offer that is, hands down, worse than all of their competitors :rolleyes:

Oh, and for the job that I did sign on for, most of the time I work through lunch and eat at my desk, clock in ~9 hours a day and have gotten every piece of work handed to me done in about half the time. :thumbsup: I don't know where you're getting this idea that I'm a complete slacker... just because I was picky about which company I started with? I think it goes the other way... the guys who will settle for the 46k/year job because they are too lazy to really scour the market and find the best paying job for themselves are the ones that lack the drive in the industry.


Did Encana offer that salary to new hires with experience or new hires without? It's rare that university grads would start that high unless they know someone or are at the top of their class.

As far as I know it's for fresh university grads. Summer experience definately doesn't hurt, and neither would the name of a prestigous university or a high GPA.

[abyss]

Originally posted by Super_Geo


And working 12+ hours a day while not being compensated properly makes you a better employee how? What is with this undying loyalty to the company that is laughing all the way to the bank while cashing in on the work you are doing? You have to be loyal to #1, straight up. If you find a better oppertunity that pays $10-20k/year more than your current job, what's stopping you from leaving? The inconvience to the company that is making millions more in profit than before while doing the exact same work? Give me a break. The market giveth, and the market will one day taketh away.



First of all, I never said I wasn't being compensated properly, I said I wasn't getting PAID close to what I was worth, there's a difference. I am a better employee because the experience made me a better person. This was also, like I said 4 years ago, and when you're an 18/19 year old with no post secondary education, in order for me to have learned the things I wanted to learn from the company, the hours were necessary to work my way from the absolute bottom to the very top. I traded money and time for knowledge and experience. I did in turn find a better opportunity that paid $20K a year more (only because of my experience and knowledge) and I took it with no regrets.

[Super_Geo]

Originally posted by abyss

First of all, I never said I wasn't being compensated properly, I said I wasn't getting PAID close to what I was worth, there's a difference.

Really... and how much pay are you worth to when you're 18/19 with no post secondary?

When I was that age I worked for a pipeline construction company as a laborer on a conversions crew (ripping out old steel lines in Calgary/area and replacing them with poly lines). It paid $12/hr, which I think is basically spot on what an 18 year old deserves. But cause it's construction, I worked 60-70 hours a week (5 or 6 days depending on weather) and managed to gross $13k that summer, which was enough to cover tuition and half a year of rent.

By the end of that summer I could dig a 6' hole before you had a chance to think about why the body's in the garage or how you're going to get rid of all that blood :D

[googe]

I find it amusing how many sheep think that how hard you work or have worked has something to do with how good of a person you are. Some people have no concept of self-worth beyond how many hours they put in or how much sweat they shed.

Face it, no one cares about the tough times you went through and how hard you worked. Stop "bragging". If anything, it makes most people look foolish for not figuring out how to fix their situation sooner.

People talk about how they fought a hard battle to get from the bottom to the top, and how they deserve more than someone who just walked in to the top, but come on now, really the joke is on you. Since when is being slave-driven and busting your ass to pad the wallet of some suit 5 rungs above you something to be proud of? Congratulations, youre what makes capitalism so viable :thumbsup:

[Shaolin]

way i see it... it's all a game.. you play the game right, you could be a lazy fuck that works just enough not to get fired and still make it.. I'm sure everyone has a useless supervisor/boss or know of one..

[abyss]

Originally posted by Super_Geo


Really... and how much pay are you worth to when you're 18/19 with no post secondary?

When I was that age I worked for a pipeline construction company as a laborer on a conversions crew (ripping out old steel lines in Calgary/area and replacing them with poly lines). It paid $12/hr, which I think is basically spot on what an 18 year old deserves. But cause it's construction, I worked 60-70 hours a week (5 or 6 days depending on weather) and managed to gross $13k that summer, which was enough to cover tuition and half a year of rent.

By the end of that summer I could dig a 6' hole before you had a chance to think about why the body's in the garage or how you're going to get rid of all that blood :D

I agree with you, and $12 an hour is about what I should have been making IMO, however I was paid salary not hourly (again, call me stupid for this if you want, with the hours it turned out to be about $7.00 an hour) But I learned my lessons and moved as soon as a better opportunity was available. Would I do it again? Probably not, but that still doesn't mean I regret the experience.

[96Mx6]

Employers are not loyal to you, so why are people loyal to employers?

I love that young kids are asking for so much. All it means is that the wage goes up for everyone.

[Lex350]

Originally posted by 96Mx6
Employers are not loyal to you, so why are people loyal to employers?

I love that young kids are asking for so much. All it means is that the wage goes up for everyone.


That's not true. Companies still have a budget. It can have negative effects like:

reducing the pay increases for established employees.

reducing the number of people a company can hire

less money that goes towards training

benefit cuts...etc

The money has to come from somewhere and you can bet it won't come from the owners/managers pocket.


If I was one of these young people getting this money I would be signing up for every training course I could to upgrade my skills. When the bottom drops out of the economy...and it will at some point...these over-priced people with little experience will be the first to be set free. I would be trying to make it more difficult for them to cast me a drift.

[Lex350]

Originally posted by googe
I find it amusing how many sheep think that how hard you work or have worked has something to do with how good of a person you are. Some people have no concept of self-worth beyond how many hours they put in or how much sweat they shed.

Face it, no one cares about the tough times you went through and how hard you worked. Stop "bragging". If anything, it makes most people look foolish for not figuring out how to fix their situation sooner.

People talk about how they fought a hard battle to get from the bottom to the top, and how they deserve more than someone who just walked in to the top, but come on now, really the joke is on you. Since when is being slave-driven and busting your ass to pad the wallet of some suit 5 rungs above you something to be proud of? Congratulations, youre what makes capitalism so viable :thumbsup:


it calls into question the concept of character. Many companies these look for that more than what their resume says. It's easy to train a person to do a job but you can't turn an asshole into a good team player.

[Super_Geo]

Originally posted by rotten42

The money has to come from somewhere and you can bet it won't come from the owners/managers pocket.


Exactly, when the companies run into hard times it's the guys on the bottom who are sacked first, do not get raises, etc etc. So why is it expected that the little guy has to be unreasonably loyal to these top-heavy companies? If the owner/manager cannot pay you what the market dictates, I say it's time to pack your bags and find an employer that will.


If I was one of these young people getting this money I would be signing up for every training course I could to upgrade my skills. When the bottom drops out of the economy...and it will at some point...these over-priced people with little experience will be the first to be set free. I would be trying to make it more difficult for them to cast me a drift. [/B]

Great advice :thumbsup: My company covers oil/gas courses at the UofC, and I signed up ASAP. When I asked the president of the company about how they go about covering the cost of the course, he added in "Though people always tell me I should re-imburse a year after people have taken the course, so they don't just charge it to the company and then run off."

I mean, I agree... but pay your people what they're worth and they won't run off. Pretty simple, no? Especially when the industry is as fat as it is right now.

[asuth077]

Originally posted by rotten42



it calls into question the concept of character. Many companies these look for that more than what their resume says. It's easy to train a person to do a job but you can't turn an asshole into a good team player.

This is true, a lot of new management books recommend hiring someone who fits into your company, not someone with a great resume. Soft-skills make people who they are and can't be taught, where as knowledge can absolutely be attained through training.

A great book to read is From Good to Great by Jim Collins. A lot of the focus is on business management but it can provide some great insight for employees as well.

[tirebob]

Loyalty is a 2 way street for sure, but the reality is that it is the employee that needs to show loyalty to a company before the company show loyalty to the employee. Especially these days...

By no means should an employee be dedicated to taking shit and abuse from a bad employer, but if you are working for a company that does appreciate you and has a track record of long lasting employees, promotion from within, help in areas not truely required of an employer (such as the understanding of needs outside the job that affect the job such as taking of hours, days etc for the needs of the family etc), and other things, the bottom dollar should not always be the determining factor because while we all do work for money, there are many things more which determine how happily we walk through life.

Not all employers are assholes, and if you are not loyal and hard working, you will not get any loyalty in return. If you are loyal and hardworking and your employer does not reciprocate, then you have the ability to find a better gig some where else, and if you are the guy busting your ass to do a good job, finding a your employer to be loyal, or finding that better job is pretty damn easy.

[Lex350]

In some respects I don't think a new person should be loyal and stick with a company more than 3 years. There is something to be said about working in a couple different work environments to see which on works best with your personal work style. This is something I did early in my career and am happy I did.


That said....companies do show loyalty to some of the new people that they deam will fit into it's core work group. Most businesses have a core group of people that they count on and the rest are considered supporting people. As a company you try and identify these core people and do everything you can to keep them.

[5.9 R/T]

Originally posted by black_2.5RS
I do recruiting for one of the larger firms downtown and I personally think that new grads are waaaaay too focused on salary. I agree that you need a certain amount to survive, pay bills and to keep in your jeans but there is the overall package that many do not consider. I work in the IT field and training is paramount to keeping your skills updated and to stay in demand. I can't think of too many (if any) companies that would gladly hand over $10,000/yr in training - yet the candidate does not factor this in.

As a result, we have basically stopped looking to hire fresh grads and have started to turn to those people that have 1-2 yrs experience in whatever oil&gas company downtown - who clearly make more money but realize that their job is teaching them nothing and they are basically getting all ambition beaten out of them. I know b/c I was one of them. I left a big financial trading firm that wouldn't even pay for a $60 book from Chapters - that helped me maintain their network. I was pissed and left. Waaay happier now and my salary has totally caught up and surpassed many of my peers who stayed in industry (mind you my pay sucked the first couple of years - but i'm caught up at this point).

:werd: When I'm deciding on what companies I apply at I make my decision based on lifestyle and atmosphere, not salary. I spent 8 months working for a company that payed very well but no one was happy due to working conditions and management and I will not make that mistake again.

The biggest difference I see between the 'old' generation and the current gen is the ability to choose. I'm not just talking about employers but what industry they go into. Most in the older gen did not end up in their respective industry out of choice but rather out of necessity and they may not like what they do. Whereas those people entering the workforce today are actually going into something that they want to be doing and that they enjoy. At least thats the way I see it.

[Afrodeziak]

moved to main forum