PDA

View Full Version : Concerns of rain during house construction (no siding)



Foz
09-12-2006, 10:00 PM
Looks like my builder is taking a risk (as they've mentioned verbally to me).

They can't find any siding crew and don't want to stop progress so they've continued to complete the inside of the house such as installing the insulation, vapour barrier and dry wall.

Now with the weather forecasting rain/thunderstorms for a duration of a week, I'm concerned with the possibility of mold growth and the reliability of wet insulation. There's no house wrap (ie. Tyvek) nor siding on the sheathing .

Builder mentioned that they'll take the risk and if it needs to be fixed, it will. I'm quite doubtful that they'll inspect for mold etc. since it's been drywalled.

Anyone else in this situation or has gone through this? What's your advise?

thanks

tirebuster
09-12-2006, 10:04 PM
After the storms have finished, peel back part of the outer sheeting where the siding mounts to, and check for moisture buildup, if any, watch it for the next couple of days, if it doesn't evaporate, or if you can still see it in the insulation or the back of the drywall, tell them to re-do the whole thing.

NO PAYMENT FOR SHODDY WORKMANSHIP


Take it from someone in the industry, stick it to them.

88CRX
09-12-2006, 10:08 PM
Why arent they atleast wraping the building?

Foz
09-12-2006, 10:11 PM
That's what I was thinking but they say they can't find crews to do the work.

:thumbsdow

88CRX
09-12-2006, 10:18 PM
What homebuilder?

Iqoair
09-12-2006, 10:23 PM
One of our friends ran into the same situation. They ended up with MOLD because of it.

I see them do it all the time in Evanston here. They frame it, then they insulate and drywall. A month later they put the siding on. Amazing the crap they get away with.

Celica TVS3
09-12-2006, 10:34 PM
^ MOLD is your biggest concern. I knew somebody this happend to also. It was last summer with all the heavy rain. The builder drywalled the mositure inside the walls, and finished the inside compleatly. Of course mold grew in the walls and the builder ended up having to gut the entire place.

They may be taking the risk, but your also taking the risk of being displaced while they dismantal your home and put it back together in proper order. Plus the risk that all the mold spores arn't removed.

I would kick scream and fight this one untill they see it your way.

88CRX
09-13-2006, 05:13 PM
So I talked to some people at work here and we came to the same consensus. First off there might not be any problems at all if the rain stays light and there isnít much wind driving the rain directly at the building face. The wind will push A LOT of the water in and through the wall system to the vapour barrier and then it will drip down the base and leak into the house possibly creating puddles at the floor. This will most likely ruin some of the gypsum. You may also have some mold problems if it doesnít dry out properly before the building paper goes up.

So, my boss recommended that you talk to your lawyer about getting some sort of statement in writing from the building that if any problems arise from water damage due to their poor construction order of the house that they will be help responsible for all cost occurred to fix and repair. This must go past the 1 year home warrantee as the mold may not be severe by that time. He also recommended that they pay for someone to come in and test for mold in say 9 months time (before the 1 year is up) and then go from there.

But donít get too worried about it, if the rain keeps coming straight down you donít have much to worry about. But make sure to cover your ass just incase. Get everything in writing.

S4maniac
09-13-2006, 05:48 PM
Dude - this is HUGE! Document everything. Copy the letter you will send(wink wink) to the builder to the Home Warranty folk. Note all the items you've listed here. Copy your lawyer. Now, while your New Home Warranty is 1 year, the Builders Liability remains on the house for 10 (yes I mean TEN) years if you can LEGALLY prove an pre-exsisting deficiency. This is intended for land settlement over long periods, intentional smooth overs, etc... but it is there if you can prove it. Pictures of the inside and outside NOW! You will probably be fine ... but a little pre-emptive work now will secure your rights for probably longer than you want to keep your place.

The builder has gambled here ... you don't need to.

Supa Dexta
09-13-2006, 05:50 PM
"If you don't have time to do it right the 1st time, what makes you think you'll have time to do it again"

Boosted_TL
09-13-2006, 05:52 PM
Take pictures and document everything like posted above, that would be your foundation to start with! Even go to the extent of printing off the weather network daily weather report and attach that to the pictures. Builder's are not your friend.

Lex350
09-13-2006, 06:46 PM
booms are such a horrible time to build a house. Anybody that can pick up a hammer calls themselves a builder.

I blame the home builders not the trades. The builders are so greedy that they take orders for too many houses making it impossible for a coordinated effort to build a house in a reasonable time. (3 months) 1 year is just a stupid amount of time to build a typical house.

frozenrice
09-13-2006, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by rotten42
booms are such a horrible time to build a house. Anybody that can pick up a hammer calls themselves a builder.

I blame the home builders not the trades. The builders are so greedy that they take orders for too many houses making it impossible for a coordinated effort to build a house in a reasonable time. (3 months) 1 year is just a stupid amount of time to build a typical house.

It's not a matter of the builders being greedy (maybe some are, but not all of them neither)

The bigger problem is the trades. Builders usually project so many sales a month based on what they think is manageable with the trades that they have. The trades know they have the upper hand and have the builders by the nuts - "You don't want to cough up the cash? I know another builder that will - see you later......" When a builder relies on a trade they think they've secured and the trade walks, it creates problems.

You can't blame the builder either for taking too many orders either because the developers are nesting lots. Builders are alotted so many lots per phase and as soon as the phase opens, they're instantly sold creating an influx of sales all at once. Once the lots are sold the builder has to wait a few more months for another phase and it starts all over again. The builder can only sell houses based on the number lots they get.

3 months IMO is a little too fast to build a house. 5-6 is reasonable. 1 year is stupid but realistic these days.

Back to the original matter though, as long as there is some sort of building paper like black tar paper or TYVEK, and the soffit and roofing is on, you'll have a better chance of keeping the house dry. If it's exposed OSB or in some cases actual plywood, all you can do is hope that it was a good framer that put all the joints together tight. You also have to remember it takes a lot of precipitation to cause any kind of serious water damage.

Foz
09-13-2006, 09:45 PM
I dropped by the house this morning and got a larger headache.

I had several windows completely left wide open. It already rained overnight and plenty this morning, so I'm sure were some water inside on the drywalls.

Well, I sent out my 'concern' letter to the builder and got a call from the site supervisor.

He mentioned that the drywaller's made the mistake of leaving the windows open and it won't happen again. I asked if there's any significant damage from rain going through the windows and he said it was fine (?).

As for mold, they aren't going to take down the drywall, but instead peek outside on the sheathing to detect moisture/mold and if so, spray it with some anti-mold agent??

I'm thinking, just tear down the sheathing and replace the insulation.

88CRX, I'll try seeking legal advise on this (as what your boss recommended sounds good!).

I'll also try to get a hold of New Home Warranty and see what they say.

Thanks for everyone's advise.

I knew building a home would have some problems and will never be perfect, but shady work and to take a risk like this? Like you've put it, they took the risk and lost, why should I.

BTW, builder is Excel Homes.

silvercivicsir
09-13-2006, 10:14 PM
Depends on the builder.. i know in Evanston I wouldn't build a house with Trico, Jaguer Sterling, or broad view..... which only leaves Nuvista. Nuvista atleast seems to have an idea on what they are doing and are building a decent home in aprox 6 months..


Originally posted by Iqoair
One of our friends ran into the same situation. They ended up with MOLD because of it.

I see them do it all the time in Evanston here. They frame it, then they insulate and drywall. A month later they put the siding on. Amazing the crap they get away with.

mikestypes
09-14-2006, 12:22 PM
I am having the same ordeal right now with Beattie Homes. The house is drywalled (not taped yet though) and there is NO siding or house wrap. They install the house wrap in sections with the siding, which is complete shit. The instant the house is framed and the roof is on, it should be fully wrapped to prevent these issues.

I visited the house yesterday, and things were fine (the ouside walls where not terribly wet. I hope this are still OK on my visit today....

Lex350
09-14-2006, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by frozenrice


It's not a matter of the builders being greedy (maybe some are, but not all of them neither)

The bigger problem is the trades. Builders usually project so many sales a month based on what they think is manageable with the trades that they have. .


That's bullshit. The builders sell what they want and then put preussure on the trades to preform. The builders already know what their contractors can handle yet they over sell anyway. They then try and tell you to make your employees work overtime but they aren't but at the same rates.

Our family owns a concrete business and we've now dropped some builders for this very reason. Their expectation are so out of wack. The good builders put a cap on what they sell and concentrate on building a quality house.

Kobe
09-14-2006, 12:29 PM
We are installing the instalation right now, and the house is only in framing right now aswell, my dad says there shouldn't be a problem...

frozenrice
09-14-2006, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by rotten42
Our family owns a concrete business and we've now dropped some builders for this very reason. Their expectation are so out of wack. The good builders put a cap on what they sell and concentrate on building a quality house.

Your family owns a conrete company so you know everything about home building huh? Concrete is a small part of the bigger picture. I've been working in home building for 15 years so I deal with every trade from start to finish. Like I said not all builders are greedy. Don't even think that all the builder's are pushing because they oversold either. Maybe some of them are, but you're generalizing the whole industry, which is not the case for all of them. They push to try to maintian schedules to minimize the build times everyone is complaining about. If the concrete is late it puts other trades off schedule too. Since most trades are paid piecework, they want to get the job done as fast as possible so they can move to the next job. Time is money for these guys, the more that they can squeeze in in an 8hour day, the more they get paid. If the concrete is late, then the cribber,finisher or whatever is paying his guy(s) by the hour to sit and wait. Well that trade doesn't get paid for the time waiting because he's paid piecework by the builder. As a conrcete company, assumming you were paid by the square foot or cubic metre, it's safe to say you'd want to get your guys to do a job in one hour as opposed to 20.

Simply put, if there's no work for the delayed trade, they go work for somebody else to fill in the spot and the builder ends up further delayed trying to get them to come back or finding a replacement who has the time. And people complain about the wait times and prices? I wonder why. I'm not directing this comment specifically at concrete either, it fair a statement for almost all trades these days.

turbotrip
09-14-2006, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Foz

BTW, builder is Excel Homes.

my experiences with excel have been great, they really made sure that we were completely satisfied with the houses. If u dont mind me asking what area is it in and who are u dealing with?

nusneak
09-14-2006, 07:00 PM
You have one year to hold your builder liable for anything.
Check a few times during construction for moisture/mold, and when they are insulating/drywalling I'd go in and smash a few holes in random places before they start mudding/taping and check again for stuff.

Just an idea, sounds like a shitty situation.

blitz
09-14-2006, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by turbotrip


my experiences with excel have been great, they really made sure that we were completely satisfied with the houses. If u dont mind me asking what area is it in and who are u dealing with?

Same here, was very impressed. I built in Royal Oak with Chris as the super. This was just before the building rush took off, so I was in a slightly different situation.

Foz
09-14-2006, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by turbotrip


my experiences with excel have been great, they really made sure that we were completely satisfied with the houses. If u dont mind me asking what area is it in and who are u dealing with?

I've pm'ed you.

Lex350
09-15-2006, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by frozenrice


Your family owns a conrete company so you know everything about home building huh? Concrete is a small part of the bigger picture. I've been working in home building for 15 years so I deal with every trade from start to finish. Like I said not all builders are greedy. Don't even think that all the builder's are pushing because they oversold either. Maybe some of them are, but you're generalizing the whole industry, which is not the case for all of them. They push to try to maintian schedules to minimize the build times everyone is complaining about. If the concrete is late it puts other trades off schedule too. Since most trades are paid piecework, they want to get the job done as fast as possible so they can move to the next job. Time is money for these guys, the more that they can squeeze in in an 8hour day, the more they get paid. If the concrete is late, then the cribber,finisher or whatever is paying his guy(s) by the hour to sit and wait. Well that trade doesn't get paid for the time waiting because he's paid piecework by the builder. As a conrcete company, assumming you were paid by the square foot or cubic metre, it's safe to say you'd want to get your guys to do a job in one hour as opposed to 20.

Simply put, if there's no work for the delayed trade, they go work for somebody else to fill in the spot and the builder ends up further delayed trying to get them to come back or finding a replacement who has the time. And people complain about the wait times and prices? I wonder why. I'm not directing this comment specifically at concrete either, it fair a statement for almost all trades these days.


I don't think that all home builders are greedy...just a lot of the bigger ones.

Of course I was generalizing just like you are being over specific. Just because your builder isnít greedy it doesnít mean that others arenít. I come to this not only from my experience with the concrete industry but also from the development side of my company and from over 15 working in the design industry both commercial and residential. I'll remember next time to restrict my comments to"

Everybody else but the builder frozenrice works for
drama:

mikestypes
09-15-2006, 07:57 PM
Yup, my place had leakage when I stopped by today. :banghead:

88CRX
09-16-2006, 11:31 AM
yea, with this much rain your prolly fucked :thumbsdow

mikestypes
09-16-2006, 12:21 PM
If it is coming out the bottom of the wall, then I am assuming that the insualtion is saturated and will require replacement. Am I correct in this assumption? What would be the recommended next step?

Couple pics:


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/mikestypes/100_1148.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/mikestypes/100_1152.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/mikestypes/100_1157.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/mikestypes/100_1144.jpg

nusneak
09-16-2006, 01:20 PM
Personally I'd go and start ripping stuff down yourself and get your builder in there and do whatever you think is necessary so he knows your not about to have a moldy house built.

make sure they dont reuse that insulation or drywall.
you only have a year once you move in to hold them liable so once you do move in keep your eyes peeled or maybe take a bit more of a proactive approach. (remove some drywall when finished check behind drywall/insulation)
AFAIK if insulation gets wet it is wrecked, not just because of concerns of mold, its not fluffy anymore.

Iqoair
09-16-2006, 09:28 PM
Ugh, that's crappy. Hope they set things right. They cut corners to save time and it stings them right back. Just not worth it for the potential mold and insulation value issues down the road. Let us know how your builder responds to your concerns.

:banghead:

Celica TVS3
09-17-2006, 10:37 AM
I would go talk to the sales person - who will probably blow you off, and tell you this is normal and not a concern. Then send an email CC to your sales person and Bill Beattie, be sure to include pictures. I like to send emails to follow up all my phone calls or prior to the phone calls so I have a physical record of all contacts.

Next step would be to call a lawyer and have him draft a letter on your behalf.

Follow this by calls to the media - I think consumer reports love stories like this. Escpecially when it happens to more than one person.

But whatever you do don't let them brush you off, that drywall has to come off and the insulation has to be replaced. It's wet, it won't dry, it's useless, and will cause mold problems that are much harder fix. I would want spot checks throughout the house to be sure it's not wet elsewhere.

Maybe this is the root cause of your problems. (i'm kidding)
http://homeandgarden.canoe.ca/Homes/2005/04/25/1012635.html

Celica TVS3
09-21-2006, 10:52 PM
What happend with this?

mikestypes
09-21-2006, 10:54 PM
They pulled off the sections that got wet once I called in a City Inspector. Everything seems to be good for now.

bighead2267
09-21-2006, 11:13 PM
may be ask which area are you building with Excel...........i will try to make some deal with them nicely as they still building your house.................you don't want them do something funny in your house as revenge.
but i agree to talk with a lawyer or new home warranty see what you can do.

redevil
09-21-2006, 11:16 PM
wow,

I better keep an eye on this thread. I'm building a townhouse and I noticed that some of them are also drywalling before doing the siding.

My place has just finished the framing stage, so hopefully they find a crew to do the siding before it starts to snow!

Toma
09-21-2006, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by 88CRX
What homebuilder?
Every builder in the city leaves the houses bare.... junk.

You cant get quality these days. The houses that I have that were built in the 50's will STILL outlast anything built today.

Foz
09-22-2006, 02:39 PM
I've called in the City inspectors and they'll deal with the builder. If things need to be replaced, it will.

jdmakkord
09-22-2006, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Toma

Every builder in the city leaves the houses bare.... junk.

You cant get quality these days. The houses that I have that were built in the 50's will STILL outlast anything built today.

50's houses won't outlast my place...thank got for concrete walls though:D

Supa Dexta
09-22-2006, 09:15 PM
And its not just houses.. Everything, I was on a site the other day where they drywalled the whole place before the plumbers were finished and had everything inspected.. And guess what, Leaks! They gave them an 8x8" access panel, which they couldnt do shit all with.. All to open a few days ahead, well not even ahead, just before they should, too tight of scedules.. SOOOO many corners are being cut, as long as they cover up, all is well for the short term, but look out after a few yrs..

Kobe
09-22-2006, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by redevil
wow,

I better keep an eye on this thread. I'm building a townhouse and I noticed that some of them are also drywalling before doing the siding.

My place has just finished the framing stage, so hopefully they find a crew to do the siding before it starts to snow!

just make sure it has the tyvek paper on the wall, and you should be good to go...

frozenrice
09-22-2006, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Kobe


just make sure it has the tyvek paper on the wall, and you should be good to go...

tyvek is a good choice, just make sure that the house doesn't sit for a couple of months with just the tyvek either. It works good as a building paper, but it's meant to go under your exterior finish. It wasn't designed to be exposed to UV so it breaks down if it's not covered up in a certain time frame. This is one reason why some builders won't use it on a stucco house that is built in the winter. You can't stucco in the winter and the tyvek sits exposed to the sun for a few months before the stucco is applied. Not a good scenario. In that kind of situation 2 layers of 30min black building paper is the suggested method. Make sure it isn't 1 layer of 60min.

bighead2267
09-25-2006, 10:52 PM
:eek:

Zero102
09-27-2006, 11:30 PM
This reminds me of when I was doing electrical working on Pointe of View South Port in Mackenzie Town. It's all 4-storey condo's, and they were in a really big rush to get done.
So, we were roughing in the 4th floor while they were starting to finish the first floor. The problem is at this point there still wasn't a roof on the building......
We got about 4 days of straight rain. On the first floor it was just pouring through the drywall, even after the rain stopped there were huge water stains everywhere. All of the walls inbetween the units had double and triple drywall on walls with insulation in them. All of that was just soaked.
The solution was to wait for a couple of +25*C days then board over everywhere that was stained.

The first floor was completely drywalled, mudded and taped. They had just started boarding the second floor when the rain hit.

BTW, this was in the north-east building with the parkade underneath it for anybody who lives there now.....


Then again, they insisted that we work through the rain, using electric drills on the top floor without GFCI plugs. We each got shocked bad 2-3 times a day. I refused to work up there after one day :(

drox
10-03-2006, 04:05 AM
Haha Zero, Ive had that shit happen to me so many times from my dewalt router when it gets wet. Fucking arm tenses up and you cant let go of it :thumbsdow:

I can only imagine the look on some of the home owners faces if I went upto them and told them some of the stuff I saw happening in their houses or explained thats not how it should be. Some builders really take advantage of peoples ignorance and try to pass off their lame practices as the norm.


Originally posted by frozenrice

The bigger problem is the trades. Builders usually project so many sales a month based on what they think is manageable with the trades that they have. The trades know they have the upper hand and have the builders by the nuts - "You don't want to cough up the cash? I know another builder that will - see you later......" When a builder relies on a trade they think they've secured and the trade walks, it creates problems.

You know why trades walk off jobs?

Sunday night at 9pm, I was putting on the rest of the tapes and all the beads through a house w/ 15000sq/ft of wall. The builder stops in... starts blabbing on about how this place has been delayed so long and the owners need to move in and about how we have to push a rush on it. Im fucking there at 9pm on sunday, worked 17 hours that day. HOW MUCH OF A FUCKING RUSH DO YOU WANT? :banghead: Jesus christ for me to go any faster Id have to burn the fucking house to the ground to make the mud dry so I can do the next coat.

But hey, he brought me a timmies coffee! :thumbsup:

The whole yard is dug out probably 20-30ft down around ~65% of the house. Its basically like a huge rock sitting on top of a mud pile. They were doing this huge fancy retaining wall, then the guy who bid that job walked off because he realized how upside down he'd be by the time he was done. So its been sitting since, they cant get anyone to come finish it. I hope it rains like a mother fucker and that house ends up in that mud hole. The fucking owners want to move into this house by the end of the month and get the yard fixed some time next year... maybe.

Standing out on the deck you can see the soil eroding already.... and their cement pad in the back yard is cracking in half and sinking towards the hole. The 6x6 deck posts are sliding off those redi-pour concrete posts. Its funny :rofl:

Thats basically every day in the life of me. Its becoming normal to get home at 2am and sit here smoking weed until 4 or 5 reading online forums... :zzz:


Originally posted by Kobe


just make sure it has the tyvek paper on the wall, and you should be good to go... Wrong. Once they start nailing the siding on its going to start popping drywall screws on the exterior walls. Want to know how I know?

Your builder, of course, would disagree with that. But Ive been doing this for 5 years (not as long as some but my quality speaks for itself), Ive learned what works and what doesnt.

The house should be sided before the drywallers are in there. If its stucco'd the house should be papered and wired before its drywalled. The stucco can be applied after.

I was subcontracting drywall jobs for just under 3 years... Ive lost count how many times Ive been told its a big rush job and to get it done asap. I walk in the next morning and plumbers/electricians/home owners ripped/smashed/bashed board off walls to change something. Home owners are worse sometimes. Checking for interior insulation or whatever. Just fucking go there a few days before and you can see the ugly shit hanging every where. Much simpler than running around with a keyhole saw and cutting a hole in between every fucking stud in half the walls in the house just to see if they were lied to. Im taping now.. when I see shit like that I just smile. Each one of those is a patch... by the time i get to finish taping out a house, its not uncommon to have an extra 2000$ worth of repairs tacked on the bill.

Its hilarious... sometimes the bill for the repairs adds up to more than what the job was originally supposed to pay to tape/bead the place.

If you gots some coin and want a good builder.... Homes by Wallace is the best Ive *EVER* seen. A lot of mckinley and knightsbridge are bigger houses, but they dont hold a handle to the quality of Wallace. Best houses ever. Even if you dont have the money to buy, go visit their show home, its amazing. For such a low volume, high dollar builder you'd figure theyd hire a fucking webmaster to finish their site and update their gallery... but no :D

Only pic I found of it... and a little splurge about the house from some journalist.
http://www.calgarysun.com/cgi-bin/publish.cgi?p=110520&x=articles&s=homes
I boarded the upstairs of it (when I was subcontracting d.wall). PS: The glass floor is cool as fuck.

Jayman is crap, Avi is crap, Trico is crap, Morrison is crap. Fuck pretty much any of the cookie cutters you see around are crap. Heartland isnt as bad as the rest, but its still crap. Its pretty much becoming a standard to produce crap. Ive worked for most cookie cutter builders at one point or another... they are all built like shit. I just stay away from them.... working in custom homes in mount royal and good builders like knightbridge, mckinley masters, wallace for the win.

EnRich
10-03-2006, 09:44 AM
Nice post drox :thumbsup: wanna come come help me build a custom home in black diamond. weeds on me ;)

Foz
10-19-2006, 12:56 PM
BUMP!

For those who are concerned with mold problem.

Check out CFCN's News at 6PM Monday, Oct.23rd.

They're showing a report on mold growth that is happening to new homes and mentioned it's very common these days.

:thumbsdow to the builders taking short cuts..

bighead2267
12-24-2006, 11:37 PM
did they mention how you can go after the builder about the Mold..........i miss the TV show