Could ORtega and the Sandinistas return in Nicaragua?

[Toma]

Looks that way! Is that a slap in the face to the American's or what lol

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6117704.stm

[Xtrema]

Capitalism without checks and balance is scary. That's what turn most countries into commies in the first place.

[Toma]

I wonder if the US ever paid the 17 billion in reparations to Nicaragua that they were ordered to pay by the World Court? ;)

I wonder if ole' Ollie North will come out of retirement to sell arms to Iran again and use the funds to support the new versio of the Contras?

This just makes me laugh. Imagine the pride and justive Ortega will feel if re-elected :thumbsup:

[rx7girlie]

I seriously hope you do not think this is a good thing. Mr. Daniel Ortega from all accounts I have ever heard, from my parents who left a once "clean and civil" country and my family, and other Nicaraguans that I have spoken with are afraid of having Ortega back.

Those who lived through the times, will say it is not a good thing.

I am disappointed now, as are many back home. Nicaragua I thought recently would start moving forwards, but TODAY, Nicaragua is official moving backwards again.

[Toma]

Originally posted by rx7girlie
I seriously hope you do not think this is a good thing. Mr. Daniel Ortega from all accounts I have ever heard, from my parents who left a once "clean and civil" country and my family, and other Nicaraguans that I have spoken with are afraid of having Ortega back.

Those who lived through the times, will say it is not a good thing.

I am disappointed now, as are many back home. Nicaragua I thought recently would start moving forwards, but TODAY, Nicaragua is official moving backwards again.
Move backwards from an American impossed dicatorship? Or even worse then being second poorest in South America?

I am so dissapoointed you do not know your own history....

[rx7girlie]

It's actually Central America ;) But thanks for criticizing my knowledge of the history of my country. Like I said, my account of the history from Somoza to FSLN and roughly until now, comes from Nicaraguans living in....and who lived through. It's easy to talk when you have never lived it, or quite literally, know where the country is situated.

My parents left in 1979, right when the war was going on. The stories my mom told me about the FSLN murdering people is ridiculous. "Partitioning" land to the poor people was in actual fact, a sort of "survival of the fittest", quite literally, these poor people would enter onto someones land, hack them up, then start living in their homes. You have no idea what the kind of people who are poor in my country are like. I hate to speak like this, but they are ignorant, low-brow animals who have no respect for anyone else, but to better their personal existence. They don't care about their children, their families. And unfortunately, Ortega appeals to them.

[Weapon_R]

If it was so bad, why is he leading the primary election? People don't have short memories, and you're not going to convince a lot of people that the entire nation is a bunch of "low brow animals".

[rx7girlie]

40.4%.Corruption and poverty.... the history of Nicaragua continues.....
Not much that can be done now, we'll see how it unfolds...Daniel is lucky Herty Lewites die of a heart attack.

[rx7girlie]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
If it was so bad, why is he leading the primary election? People don't have short memories, and you're not going to convince a lot of people that the entire nation is a bunch of "low brow animals".

Yeah, I admit, maybe it is too harsh to use the word "animal", but what I have seen when I go there. Wow. It is not a safe country, it needs a lot of work, the people need a differnt approach. The country has seen too much disaster...both war and natural alike. It needs a politician and party who will not steal (ie - 1990's) or kill (ie - 1980's). Hopefully, Ortega is not a wolf in lambs clothing.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
If it was so bad, why is he leading the primary election? People don't have short memories, and you're not going to convince a lot of people that the entire nation is a bunch of "low brow animals".

It's kind of like US's vote tomorrow. People will vote Democrats because at the time, it seems to be the lesser of 2 evils.

Ortega also renounce his old ways, so may be people believe him this time.

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by Xtrema


It's kind of like US's vote tomorrow. People will vote Democrats because at the time, it seems to be the lesser of 2 evils.

Ortega also renounce his old ways, so may be people believe him this time.

If he's the lesser of the 2 evils, he's the better candidate. And if the election process was legitimate, let the people choose who they want. I have a feeling that the U.S. backed contras did more damage to the country than Ortega could ever do.

[rx7girlie]

Originally posted by Weapon_R


If he's the lesser of the 2 evils, he's the better candidate. And if the election process was legitimate, let the people choose who they want. I have a feeling that the U.S. backed contras did more damage to the country than Ortega could ever do.

That's a fair enough statement. What's funny is that in his previous 4/5 attempts at being president, he has at times recieved the same ~40% of vote. But why now is he in power?

It doesnot reflect a sudden surge in his popularity. It's due largely to a change in electoral law engineered by his party (Between him and Aleman). I don't know if you can call it corruption though... but to change the winning percent to 35 with a 5 % margin...to avoid a run-off. And again, Lewty the previous front runner died...otherwise it was predicted he didn't stand a chance (again!).

Interesting nonetheless.

[Toma]

Originally posted by Xtrema


It's kind of like US's vote tomorrow. People will vote Democrats because at the time, it seems to be the lesser of 2 evils.

Ortega also renounce his old ways, so may be people believe him this time.
If anything, we have seen it's almost impossible to run a country with the US spending billions to make you and your people suffer....

And its nothing like the US system.... they have a multi party system, so as we have seen with other coutnries with similar systems, its not unusual to win with a minority..... BUT.... when the Sandinistas overthrew the American sponsored dictator in 1979 Nicaragua was effectively 'ruled' by thr 5 leaders... with heavy emphasis on Ortega.

He called elections in 1984, and won with 63% of the vote in 1985... not 40% ;) As always, the international community said the elections were fair, the American's.... still pissed at the overthrow of their dictator, of course said it was not. His entire time in power was marred by American interference and funding of the terrorist group the Contras....sanctions embarog, smear campaigns against him etc.

People got upset of the pressure, and he was voted OUT in 1990...

SINCE 1990, with Ortega NOT in power, the coutnry has slid even fruther down hill economically, but as said, the world court sided, and awarded them 17 billion from the US for their roles in the wars and massacres, and of course the brutal economic emabargo....they are yet to collect what is owed to them.

Even to this day, the US and other groups fund smear campaigns against Ortega.... hard to decipher fact from fiction in this case.

Ortega was not in power since 1990, and really only held office for 5 or 6 years, up against the crushing pressure of the US, and terrorist, Oliver North ;)

[redline]

Originally posted by Toma

SINCE 1990, with Ortega NOT in power, the coutnry has slid even fruther down hill economically, but as said, the world court sided, and awarded them 17 billion from the US for their roles in the wars and massacres, and of course the brutal economic emabargo....they are yet to collect what is owed to them.



i though you said you did not know if they were paid or not?

[Toma]

Originally posted by redline


i though you said you did not know if they were paid or not?
sarcasm?? wink wink, nudge nudge....

[redline]

Originally posted by Toma

sarcasm?? wink wink, nudge nudge....

or lying to prove your point... sounds like Bush.....

[rx7girlie]

Originally posted by Toma

He called elections in 1984, and won with 63% of the vote in 1985... not 40% ;)

SINCE 1990, with Ortega NOT in power, the coutnry has slid even fruther down hill economically,
Ortega was not in power since 1990, and really only held office for 5 or 6 years

I'll reply one more time, just because I think I need to clarify, since even though you didn't quote me I think you misunderstood my reply (since I was the only one who put 40%)

- 40% was refering to this years election, not in '84. I have no clue what % or margin he won by back then.
- I think we know Ortega wasn't in power since 1990, and since I was the only person who mentioned this year in the thread before you, what I meant by my other post of 1990's (ie- stealing) was refering to Aleman etc.


Originally posted by Toma

The US and other groups fund smear campaigns against Ortega.... hard to decipher fact from fiction in this case.

- The only extra things I'll add to this post: a question, Daniel Ortega's step-daughter claiming that he molested her... is this part of the US funds, paying her to smear his name and therefore his campaign? I'm not saying this to defend the US, but just to show that Ortega is not a good man.

- Also, with respect to the $$. From what I understood, the first act of Violeta Chamorro was to absolve the United States of any payment to Nicaragua of the World Court judgment. Yes yes, I know you are going to say she was heavily funded by the US, but my point is, you make it seem like the US just ignored to pay, and no one was held accountable.

[Toma]

^^^ Like I said, I really am not in a position to determine what he really did and did not do.... I would not put ANYTHING past the US at this point in regards to their record all over the world, ESPECIALLY Nicaragua... so I dunno :dunno:

That will be upto the voters to decide...

And realistically, with 5 candidates, you have to expect 40% or thereabouts to be good enough for a win....

The margin is narrow, so a runoff is possible... we got ol' Jimmy Carter down there supervising the election ;)

And lets be real... the US openly said they would not pay, and who in their right fuckin mind would absolve a 17 billion dollar debt when average daily wage was a whoping $2 a day :nut: Someone who was paid off.... that's who.

She did it as a "buy out" so that the US would absolve economic sanctions.... come on :banghead:

[Toma]

Oh, and $17 BILLION dollars would have been $3800 for every man woman and child in Nicaragua.... more then they make in almost 10 years of work....

That was a real "woman of the people" leader they had....

Edit:... and there we go... Ortega by 9% over his closest rival, but still only 38%..... run-off??

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6117704.stm

[RickDaTuner]

Originally posted by rx7girlie


Yeah, I admit, maybe it is too harsh to use the word "animal", but what I have seen when I go there. Wow. It is not a safe country, it needs a lot of work, the people need a differnt approach. The country has seen too much disaster...both war and natural alike. It needs a politician and party who will not steal (ie - 1990's) or kill (ie - 1980's). Hopefully, Ortega is not a wolf in lambs clothing.

I guess Nicaragua Isn't that safe haven that you always make it out to be.

[rx7girlie]

Originally posted by RickDaTuner


I guess Nicaragua Isn't that safe haven that you always make it out to be.

Oh, I don't think I have "always" called it a safe haven by any means, sure, my post in that one thread (which I figured someone would mention;) ) but I don't think you can extrapolate an "always". But it is not dangerous if you know where you are going. Heck, if ANYONE wanders into some "barrio" in the middle of managua, even in broad daylight, do you think by any means they should consider themselves safe?? nah...that's ridiculous.

If *I* wander out alone, even at night in my city of Masaya, I feel more than safe. I stick out like a sore thumb there, and I feel perfectly safe traveling.

This has nothing to do with tourism, this is the case for traveler or citizen alike.

Let's be realistic. Nicaragua has some dangerous areas, but that should by no means deter a traveler with a grain of common sense, and perhaps some experience, to go visit. Anyways, I'm pretty sure every Latin American country is full of "pandilleros", not just Nica. ;)

Back to topic...for this thread, and back to work for me!