Best item added for handling.

[CivicTunr]

just wondering what you guys think is the best part to buy to increase in handling for any car.
example: rear strut bar, sway bars, etc...

i personally think sway bars make the biggest difference.

[962 kid]

Tires.

[Lo)2enz0]

coil overs for sure. well suspension in general

tires always helps though. you will notice it with a good tire

[QuasarCav]

Originally posted by 962 kid
Tires.


:werd:

Throw a set of performance tires on a car and it acts like a different beast. After tires I would choose shocks/struts.

[Redlyne_mr2]

Originally posted by 962 kid
Tires. :werd:

Years ago I auto-xed a Nissan nx with shitty all season tires. I was all over the place on the course, the car couldnt handle the turns. Slap a set of R compounds on the thing and its like night and day.

[Darkane]

After Coilovers or springs Sways I'd think. Strut bars dont do to much. Its arguable they even help with handling. The biggest key thing to handling is matching damping rate to the spring rate. match those to the scenario and your good.

[andres_mt]

Highly depends on what your willing to spend... but getting a good set of coilovers will do much more than strut and sway bars alone.

[iceburns288]

Tires... took the 19s off my car and put on 350Z Track model Rays 18s. Not ridiculously light, but much, much lighter than the TSWs. The problem? BFG KDW2s on the 19s (sick, sick tire) and some Dunlops (mid-performance tires) on the 18s. Steering feel was up with the lighter wheels, but absolute grip has definitely decreased.

[Cruz]

Depends on the car but on an EK I would say:

1) Suspension
2) Tires
3) Sway bar

[Slashin_]

depend on your budget...if low get sway
tires are good,but they do wear out
so i'd have to say springs/ coilovers +shocks

[tsi_neal]

tires are the number 1 improvement to a cars handling, anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong, number 2 is dampers, 3 is springs, 4 is sway bars... anything else is mostly insignificant...

[RWD]

tires and alignment are most important then coilovers then sway bars

add tower bars, fender braces etc. after everything else is done

[RWD]

of course tires wear out, what kind of comment is that?

faster wear=more grip, slower wear=less grip

[b_t]

Replacing the entire car.

[liquidboi69]

I'm suprised no one has mentioned this, but what about LSDs? Won't matter how good your tires are if the engines driving them inefficiently.

[andres_mt]

Originally posted by liquidboi69
I'm suprised no one has mentioned this, but what about LSDs? Won't matter how good your tires are if the engines driving them inefficiently.

I think he's focusing on handling...but i thought the purpose of a LSD is to minimize power loss from tranny to wheels.

[tsi_neal]

Originally posted by andres_mt


I think he's focusing on handling...but i thought the purpose of a LSD is to minimize power loss from tranny to wheels.

most cars are an open diff (one wheel drive, wheel whith the least traction gets the power) a LSD forces power to both wheels improving available power to the ground.


Originally posted by RWD

tires and alignment are most important then coilovers then sway bars


thanks for mentioning alignment, i forgot...

[962 kid]

Originally posted by frostyda9


....which has basically nothing to do with the handling of the car. Lots of effect on traction though.

traction = handling

even from a basic viewpoint, time spent spinning the wheels is time not spent accelerating which results in lower cornering and exit speeds

[slammed_cb7]

Dollar for dollar value...rip everything out of your interior, inflate your tires to optimal pressure and cut those fuckin springs!! Voilla! Bargain buggy racer:thumbsup:

[slammed_cb7]

Dollar for dollar value...rip everything out of your interior, inflate your tires to optimal pressure and cut those fuckin springs!! Voilla! Bargain buggy racer:thumbsup:

[RWD]

ya cut those spings and bounce all over the road and wonder why you go through shocks so quickly

[Redlyne_mr2]

Originally posted by slammed_cb7
Dollar for dollar value...rip everything out of your interior, inflate your tires to optimal pressure and cut those fuckin springs!! Voilla! Bargain buggy racer:thumbsup:
This is how we "tuned" cars back in 95...time to join us in 07 buddy

[HiSpec]

I've always thought sway bars, especially RSB for FWD will make most difference.

[AsianCaucasian]

Originally posted by tsi_neal
tires are the number 1 improvement to a cars handling, anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong, number 2 is dampers, 3 is springs, 4 is sway bars... anything else is mostly insignificant...

100% correct.

[rc2002]

Originally posted by RWD
tires and alignment are most important then coilovers then sway bars

add tower bars, fender braces etc. after everything else is done

Everyone always overlooks alignment. In my opinion, this is the most worthwhile thing you can do for suspension. I don't understand those people who will spend hundreds of dollars to replace suspension (especially 4 to 5 lug conversions) and don't bother to spend a few extra bucks to do an alignment afterward.

[marko polo]

Originally posted by Darkane
After Coilovers or springs Sways I'd think. Strut bars dont do to much. Its arguable they even help with handling. The biggest key thing to handling is matching damping rate to the spring rate. match those to the scenario and your good.

:werd:

[tentacles]

On the bright side, with an LSD you won't have to worry about torque steer. :thumbsup:

[Lo)2enz0]

Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2

This is how we "tuned" cars back in 95...time to join us in 07 buddy

lol he was being sarcastic

[b_t]

Originally posted by frostyda9


It's a Civic. There isn't going to be a whole lot of wheelspin. Skidpad G's and slalom MPH are not going to be affected by LSD in a Civic, nor are corners at race speed. Saying traction increases handling is exactly the same as saying better brakes improve handling. They my help you stop faster and more reliably, but they aren't going to give you any extra lateral G's. Same for limited slip.

corners will not be affected by a LSD? oh my fucking god you have no idea what you are talking about.

[962 kid]

Originally posted by frostyda9


It's a Civic. There isn't going to be a whole lot of wheelspin. Skidpad G's and slalom MPH are not going to be affected by LSD in a Civic, nor are corners at race speed. Saying traction increases handling is exactly the same as saying better brakes improve handling. They my help you stop faster and more reliably, but they aren't going to give you any extra lateral G's. Same for limited slip.

it's a civic (which btw, was not specified in the original question), which means it has three things: weak tires, weak suspension, fwd and although the EK is the stiffest of the civics, it is still not very rigid. All of those add up to one thing: less traction.

Which brings me to my next point... how can you say traction does not effect handling? What the hell do you think the point of suspension/antisway bars/downforce/LSD/better tires/strut tower bars is? To help keep the wheels on the ground :rolleyes: aka traction.

Braking and acceleration are vital in a car's handling... go google trailbraking and get back to me.

[gpomp]

Originally posted by richardchan2002


Everyone always overlooks alignment. In my opinion, this is the most worthwhile thing you can do for suspension. I don't understand those people who will spend hundreds of dollars to replace suspension (especially 4 to 5 lug conversions) and don't bother to spend a few extra bucks to do an alignment afterward.
cuz tires are cheap and negative camber is pimp! :rolleyes:

[slammed_cb7]

Originally posted by Lo)2enz0


lol he was being sarcastic

Thanks Larry! I am always misunderstood, i am gonna go cut myself !

[Impreza]

:werd: Alignment is underrated. It really is essential in getting optimal handling out of your car, along with saving your tires from uneven wear.

[milesmcewing]

Driving School..


Still the best improvement per dollar of any modification.

Most car behavior is determined by the 'nut that holds the steering wheel'.

[Mazstyle]

Originally posted by CivicTunr


i personally think sway bars make the biggest difference.


:rofl: Yes and the shinier the better

[iceburns288]

Originally posted by frostyda9
In case it wasn't totally obvious (which apparently it wasn't) I was talking about LATERAL TRACTION. I am not concerned with forces of acceleration or deceleration. I am looking at handling as the lateral forces applied to the car during cornering, not at overall car performance.
In case it's not totally obvious to you (which apparently it wasn't) that you're a FUCKING IDIOT, you have to get IN and OUT of a corner. Hence acceleration and deceleration. I'd like to see you do a lap of a track without accelerating or decelerating.

[b_t]

Originally posted by frostyda9


In case it wasn't totally obvious (which apparently it wasn't) I was talking about LATERAL TRACTION. I am not concerned with forces of acceleration or deceleration. I am looking at handling as the lateral forces applied to the car during cornering, not at overall car performance.

b_t, how much of a gain should I see on the skidpad with LSD? If the car could sustain 0.9 G before the tires broke loose due to lateral loading, what will the number be after LSD is installed?

You won't see anything on a skidpad. Your idea of handling, like iceburns said, seems to hinge on cornering at a set speed - so you take the broadest line through the corner you can and maintain one speed the whole through.

The real world idea of handling starts with braking, tests peak grip, and then your ability to accelerate hard out of a corner. Without an LSD in a front wheel drive car like a Civic, your ability to accelerate out of the corner is limited because you will be spinning your inside front wheel.

So I definitely concede that you aren't going to go around a circle faster, but you will definitely get faster in any other situation, especially around an autocross or track.

[QuasarCav]

Originally posted by frostyda9


In case it wasn't totally obvious (which apparently it wasn't) I was talking about LATERAL TRACTION. I am not concerned with forces of acceleration or deceleration. I am looking at handling as the lateral forces applied to the car during cornering, not at overall car performance.

b_t, how much of a gain should I see on the skidpad with LSD? If the car could sustain 0.9 G before the tires broke loose due to lateral loading, what will the number be after LSD is installed?


Dave, I dont know where you are going with this but on a skidpad the outside wheel would accererate faster than the inside wheel causing overall traction to be compromised. With an LSD this does not happen and the car can exit the corner much harder, there would be a higher G load you would have more traction.

[EK 2.0]

as mentioned...tires...alignment...

And a Drivers Track Course. Knowing proper lines, the chassis dymanics of your set up and the limits of all your components will make your car handle SO much better and more fun to drive.

[milesmcewing]

Geez, thats sounds like what I said too.... did you think I was kidding?

"90% of all handling problems are driver induced" - Some smart guy that I can't remember said this.

or to quote Carrol Smith
"A good driver in a bad car will beat a bad driver in a good car anyday"

or another
"What are you going to think of, that the engineer who got paid to think of, didn't?"

Ice racing school, next weekend in Leduc.

Sign up on the Northern Alberta Sports Car Club website.

I guarantee you will learn more in a day on the ice, than you have learned in you whole life driving on the road.

PS I will be teaching, come for a ride.

[m10-power]

Suspension is a package, great tires on a shitty suspension isn't better then a well designed suspension system on shitty tires.

Polyurethane bushings, good condition ball joints/tie-rod ends and a proper alignment are great starting points.

Next spring and shock combinations designed to work together, coil-overs and adjustable shock valving being best for setup.

Anti-swaybars depending on taste or stiffer springs/shock valving.

All the above will improve traction and braking as a bonus.

All of this needs to be designed around the tires and the application. Sticky tires require stiffer suspension and aggressive alignments.

Driver training as Miles has already mentioned is probably the ultimate improver of handling, best part is it transfers to any car you drive, and will probably save your and others lives one day.

[95EagleAWD]

Originally posted by b_t
Replacing the entire car.

:thumbsup:

Seriously, though. Tires.

[962 kid]

Originally posted by frostyda9

Exactly. Not feasable in real world terms, but an expression of instantaneous grip at a point in time. Obviously I understand what iceburns and his oh-so eloquent and courteous post are saying as well. I don't contest at all that LSD will be faster on a course. All I am ultimately saying is that in terms of measurable cornering G-force, LSD will not increase the *maximum* value of this number, whereas most of the other mods discussed here may. Hopefully that is clearer.

You do know that the prototype civic si spun its inside wheel around the skidpad, which is why they equipped it with a LSD, right? Same story with SRT-4s.

So... you've posted pretty much nothing but incorrect info in response to a question noone asked. What exactly was the point of your posts again?

[tsi_neal]

Originally posted by iceburns288

In case it's not totally obvious to you (which apparently it wasn't) that you're a FUCKING IDIOT, you have to get IN and OUT of a corner. Hence acceleration and deceleration. I'd like to see you do a lap of a track without accelerating or decelerating.


boys boys boys... a LSD will change how the car handles, it will change its feel in transitions and will allow you to punch the gas a touch sooner. shouldnt change the skidpad #s but there is alot more to a car than a skidpad number... also the less power the car has the less important an LSD is. My thought is unless you have real traction issues (not impatient driver issues) then the LSD wont make you considerably faster and for the cost and pain in the ass factor to install all the previous items are more important.

Also listen to milesmcewing, Miles knows what hes talking about!

[962 kid]

Originally posted by tsi_neal



boys boys boys... a LSD will change how the car handles, it will change its feel in transitions and will allow you to punch the gas a touch sooner. shouldnt change the skidpad #s but there is alot more to a car than a skidpad number... also the less power the car has the less important an LSD is. My thought is unless you have real traction issues (not impatient driver issues) then the LSD wont make you considerably faster and for the cost and pain in the ass factor to install all the previous items are more important.

Also listen to milesmcewing, Miles knows what hes talking about!

:werd: :werd: :werd:

[whiskas]

Just goto a track school or dish out money to goto events.

[RWD]

don't forget to play around with your tire pressures as well :thumbsup:

i'm personally still looking at investing in a pyrometer

[milesmcewing]

Good discussion on the LSD and the skidpads.

The LSD WILL increase the skidpad numbers, by having the LSD force power to the inside wheel (which spins from lack of weight, not just too much power) the weight transfer will change and unload some sidewall pressure on the outside wheel, giving an increase in grip and therefore speed.

This also depends on the size of the skidpad, a 200 foot pad will give better results, mainly because the loadup on the suspension will have different velocities than on a small pad.

The best results we got, were from adding an LSD and removing the front swaybar, this increased body roll and shock positions but gave better loadup. What it also does is increases driver confidence.

I can set up your car to be very fast on a track, what it will do will scare you to death and feel like it will end up 'in the bushes' on every turn.

When setting up cars for drivers, experience of the driver dictates how 'sharp we want the edge to be'.

You hear stories about tire pressure all day long, I have seen solo2 competitors wil 70PSI in the tires, I run 26 on the Beetle and 10-13PSI on the formula car. Why don't the sidewalls wear off? Don't turn the wheel so hard.

Real life Story:

Last year **** goes out in his new formula car, using the previous owners (national champion) setup. Comes in white as a ghost after 10 laps, cars is so twitchy he can't even drive a straight line, every corner feels like the car is going to throw itself away. Previous owner says ' feels great'. Double check everything, Lap times are about 1:30. Setup looks fine. try again. Same result. Change: add some tire pressure, add some rear toe, reduce some camber, set the front to to zero. Theoretically the car should be slower, guess what. Car runs 1:22's now.

Why? because the driver feels more confident and understands what is happening. As his skills increase the setup will edge closer to what it was.

Moral of the story:
Don't piss away your money on parts that a magazine said were cool, and don't buy parts to mask what you are doing as a driver.

See you at the track