The Beyond 2007 F1 Season Thread

[Team_Mclaren]

Alonso has signed per-contract with Renault, as expected. Even tho its not final
http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/071011094058.shtml


Pretty sure Mclaren will let him go, but whos gonna replace him, thats gonna be interesting.

Also, GP2 champion Timo Glock is set to drive for Toyota next year, which means Alonso's move back to Renault is even more likely.

[rage2]

McLaren will use Alonso's contract as a bargaining chip, so expect to see Heiki Kovalainen in a McLaren next year.

Toyota also offered Alonso $150m for 3 years (schumacher type salary) but he declined it and signed a contract with Renault subject to release from McLaren for 2008.

[hks]

Originally posted by Team_Mclaren
Alonso has signed per-contract with Renault, as expected. Even tho its not final
http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/071011094058.shtml


Pretty sure Mclaren will let him go, but whos gonna replace him, thats gonna be interesting.

Also, GP2 champion Timo Glock is set to drive for Toyota next year, which means Alonso's move back to Renault is even more likely.

exactly, lewis is not going to have any good support next year.
and i wonder where r.schumacher is headed. he already stated that he has the intention to leave toyota after this season

[Team_Mclaren]

Originally posted by hks


exactly, lewis is not going to have any good support next year.
and i wonder where r.schumacher is headed. he already stated that he has the intention to leave toyota after this season

what kind of "support" did he get from cry baby this year? lol

[ryanallan]

Originally posted by Team_Mclaren


what kind of "support" did he get from cry baby this year? lol

well he is double world champion, and I can side with him in that the team should not have treated him like he was second best. . .

even though there have been countless statements from Mclaren stating that they do not play favorites, Alonso seems to think they have been and I don't think he's a lier.

[Team_Mclaren]

Originally posted by ryanallan


well he is double world champion, and I can side with him in that the team should not have treated him like he was second best. . .

even though there have been countless statements from Mclaren stating that they do not play favorites, Alonso seems to think they have been and I don't think he's a lier.

What, are you serious? I dont know about the last two/three races since spa, but Alonso started off as a champion then got beat outright by a noob in Hamilton. Then he goes on and crys about everything, if you unfair treatment, go to Ferrari, where Massa and Barrichello have been owned for many years.

[buh_buh]

I wouldn't go to Toyota for any amount of money either.
But I agree with you ryanallen. McLaren definitely favors Hamilton. I don't know if they're sabatoging Alonso, but they definitely "want" Hamilton to win more than Alonso. Take that for what its worth.

Ralf says he was going to leave? It was more like Toyota told him to fuck off, then he says he's not coming back.

[rage2]

McLaren gave preferential treatment to Alonso to kick off the year. Anyone remember Monaco, where Hamilton was told to pit 3 lap early so he couldn't pass Alonso in the pits. He complained about that. Hamilton wasn't favored until Alonso started crying like a baby and putting down the team. The final straw came when Alonso blackmailed Ron Dennis.

Now, if you were in Ron Dennis and McLaren's shoes, would you favor a driver that's totally fucked up your team? Of course they want Hamilton to win at this point. Who in the right mind would want their crybaby driver to win? The same driver who was balls deep in Stepneygate, who tried to blackmail the boss to get #1 status using the emails about Ferrari information, who passed it onto Bernie Ecclestone and single handedly took away the WCC from McLaren, got them fined $100m, and fucking them over for next year (McLaren gets tiny pits next year), only to leave at the end of the year? You'd have to be as cracked out crazy as Alonso to support him within the McLaren organization :rofl:.

[buh_buh]

Why should they even give anybody preferential treatment? I thought McLaren made it their policy that they always give drivers equal treatment (even when it was Senna vs Prost). I don't think Alonso got preferential treatment in the beginning of the year, he was just the better driver. And its usually the case that the one who qualifies better gets to choose their strategy first, so since Alonso had pole, he got to run a longer first stint than Hamilton.

Haha, it seems like deja vu, as if I've already had this conversation with someone today.

[mikestypes]

Why the hell don't they just go to two separate pit stalls so that we don't have to hear about this BS anymore?

[Team_Mclaren]

Originally posted by mikestypes
Why the hell don't they just go to two separate pit stalls so that we don't have to hear about this BS anymore?

becase each team is only allow one?

[Alpine Autowerks]

Originally posted by Team_Mclaren
What, are you serious? I dont know about the last two/three races since spa, but Alonso started off as a champion then got beat outright by a noob in Hamilton. Then he goes on and crys about everything, if you unfair treatment, go to Ferrari, where Massa and Barrichello have been owned for many years.

one of the big friction points was that the team would take Alonso's setup and give it to LH - that is using his experience to assist his closest competitor.

Massa and Barrichello were hired and contractually obligated to support MS ...that is not ownage ...it was their job.

[rage2]

Originally posted by buh_buh
Why should they even give anybody preferential treatment? I thought McLaren made it their policy that they always give drivers equal treatment (even when it was Senna vs Prost). I don't think Alonso got preferential treatment in the beginning of the year, he was just the better driver.
When it comes to equipment, they do give equal treatment. Unfortunately, because each team only has 1 pit garage, they HAVE to give preferential treatment to one driver for pit strategy. It wasn't until after Monaco (after Hamilton complained he got screwed on strategy again) where McLaren swapped optimum strategies back and forth between drivers. Alonso was not the better driver up to this point. Hamilton came into Monaco with a 2 point lead in the WDC.


Originally posted by buh_buh
And its usually the case that the one who qualifies better gets to choose their strategy first, so since Alonso had pole, he got to run a longer first stint than Hamilton.
Strategy is determined BEFORE Q3 qualifying. Alonso definately got the best strategy for each race up to and including Monaco. Which is why Hamilton was mostly out qualified by Alonso (except for Bahrain when Alonso fucked up even with lighter strategy) until after Monaco. The reason why Hamilton complained about Monaco is because he was on heavier strategy and was still faster on pace than Alonso. To not piss off Alonso, McLaren called Hamilton in 3 laps early. Those 3 laps would've been enough for Hamilton to pass Alonso in the pits.

So yes, Alonso was #1 driver until Monaco.

[mikestypes]

Originally posted by Team_Mclaren


becase each team is only allow one?

I know, but why doesn't F1 look at changing the rule? With all the modern safety equipment in the F1 garage, there is very little chance of have an issue so more people could be allowed in the pitlane.

[Dave P]

Less then one week to go. Woop Woop

[Dave P]

For the first time in over 20 years, three drivers will fight it out for motorsport’s ultimate prize at the final round of the season this weekend. Lewis Hamilton is clear favourite, thanks to a four-point lead over McLaren team mate Fernando Alonso, but the odds rarely tell the whole story.

After one of the most troubled title defences in living memory, Alonso will not give in without a struggle; and then there is Kimi Raikkonen, waiting to pounce, Ferrari very much at the top of their game. But who will win? And why? We examine the factors to be considered…

Lewis Hamilton

Why he’ll win…
He’s ahead: despite his error at the Shanghai pit entrance, consistency has been key to Hamilton’s campaign and his lead means he needs the fewest points from Brazil to take the crown. If he can finish immediately behind Alonso - even if the Ferraris are ahead - he will be champion.

Pressure: in many ways he’s not really under any - if he wins he’s the first rookie champion; if he loses he’s still had the greatest rookie season in Formula One history - and, be it Alonso or Raikkonen, he will have lost to one of the most highly-rated drivers of the modern era.

Team spirit: while no one - even Alonso - doubts McLaren will continue to treat their drivers equally in terms of equipment and strategy, Hamilton knows that most in the organisation would almost certainly prefer to see him to win the title - a pretty substantial weapon to have in your armoury, especially when your main rival is also your team mate!

Why he won’t win…
Inexperience: Alonso has won two world championships, Raikkonen has come close to winning two. For Hamilton, it’s virgin territory. Yes, he’s taken titles before, but never under the intense pressure and media scrutiny that accompanies Formula One. Indeed, could his China gaffe be the first sign that he is starting to crack? On top of that he has never raced at Interlagos.

Pressure: in other ways, he is under intense pressure - pressure that has intensified immensely since his error in China. It is coming at him from all quarters, either directly or indirectly - from his rivals; his team; the media; himself; and, arguably most of all, from genuine Formula One fans around the world who, after a season seemingly dominated by off-track politicking, desperately want to see the Hamilton fairytale come true.

Fernando Alonso

Why he’ll win…
When the going gets tough: the media may have over-egged the situation, but there is no denying that Alonso is a pretty isolated figure at McLaren, and few in the paddock expect him to continue with the team next season. You might think such a situation would de-motivate a driver, but in Alonso’s case he almost seems to thrive on it. This time last year he was complaining that Renault were not giving him adequate support in his championship battle with Michael Schumacher, claiming he often felt ‘alone’ within the team. It didn’t stop him putting in devastating drives when they were most needed - notably his victory in Japan, which all but secured his second drivers’ title.

Risky business: if Alonso really is convinced that McLaren are on Hamilton’s side he may decide he has nothing to lose in being ultra aggressive, both on the track in his driving, and off it with the mind games that inevitably accompany a title decider. If he can get under Hamilton’s skin and convince his team mate that he cannot afford to play things conservatively - which in reality he can to a degree - then he knows he is more likely to force him into another rookie error. In this respect, Alonso’s isolation within the team is almost an asset - it means he will remain an unknown quantity to Hamilton, who can never be sure quite what the double champion has hidden up his sleeve.

Why he won’t win…
He’s not leading: Alonso has never come from behind to win a championship. In 2005 he had a healthy margin over Raikkonen throughout the year and wrapped up the title with two rounds to spare. Things were closer last year - he was level with Michael Schumacher heading to the penultimate race - but he never actually dropped behind the German.

He’s already lost: as McLaren have discovered, Alonso is a hard man to read. If he genuinely believes that Hamilton is destined for the title, could it be that he has already given up hope? Numerous comments attributed to the Spaniard in the press suggest he believes the title has already been decided off the track. The sign of a beaten man? Or perhaps just one trying to out-psyche his team mate?

Kimi Raikkonen

Why he’ll win…
Third time lucky: Raikkonen has been here before. He may not have won a title, but he’s been runner-up twice, in 2003 and 2005. In ‘03 he missed out by just two points, after pushing Michael Schumacher all the way to the wire. Such experience stands him in good stead - you can rely on Raikkonen to give it his all - and not to crack under pressure. On top of that he likes coming from behind - just look at his fearless fight through the field at Fuji recently.

His team mate: with Felipe Massa out of the championship running, past form suggests Ferrari will do everything in their power to make sure his main role is a supporting one to Raikkonen’s charge for victory in Brazil. Definitely a luxury Alonso and Hamilton won’t be enjoying!

Why he won’t win…
Reliability: relative to McLaren, Ferrari’s has been pretty weak this season and just one more problem - in either qualifying or race - would put Raikkonen out of contention.

He’s too far behind: he trails Hamilton by seven points and Alonso by three, which means not only does Raikkonen almost certainly need to win in Brazil - ideally with Massa second - he also needs some serious misfortune to come his rivals’ way. Even if he leads home a Ferrari one-two, with Alonso finishing third, Raikkonen would need Hamilton to come home no higher than sixth to steal the title.

[Alpine Autowerks]

Originally posted by mikestypes


I know, but why doesn't F1 look at changing the rule? With all the modern safety equipment in the F1 garage, there is very little chance of have an issue so more people could be allowed in the pitlane.

few of the tracks have a pit lane long enough for 22 pits

[mikestypes]

Originally posted by Alpine Autowerks


few of the tracks have a pit lane long enough for 22 pits

For 22 "F1" pits, probably not. Why not make the pits smaller and have one guy changing a tire instead of 4? Allow them to use pnuematic jacks instead of a guy at each end. Essentially, they should make it like the rest of the auto racing pit stops are done.

[rage2]

Alright kids... looks like a rain race this weekend. Anyone wanna join a few F1 gearheads to watch the finale live?

http://forums.beyond.ca/st/194115/beyond-ca-2007-formula-one-final-race-live-meet/

[buh_buh]

don't watch f1 with rage. The entire race he just tries to look up nudie pictures of Lewis Hamilton and show them to you.

if there was only 1 guy changing tires, then it wouldn't really be f1. Its done that way beacuse its the most efficient way of doing a pit stop. As far as I know, there aren't any restrictions as to how many guys you can have working in the pits.

[Team_Mclaren]

Originally posted by mikestypes


For 22 "F1" pits, probably not. Why not make the pits smaller and have one guy changing a tire instead of 4? Allow them to use pnuematic jacks instead of a guy at each end. Essentially, they should make it like the rest of the auto racing pit stops are done.

Nascar is for you!

[mikestypes]

Originally posted by buh_buh
don't watch f1 with rage. The entire race he just tries to look up nudie pictures of Lewis Hamilton and show them to you.

if there was only 1 guy changing tires, then it wouldn't really be f1. Its done that way beacuse its the most efficient way of doing a pit stop. As far as I know, there aren't any restrictions as to how many guys you can have working in the pits.

Uh oh, is there a way to retract PM's?? LOL.

Wouldn't the most efficient way of doing pit stops be to have two teams for two cars? Anyway, F1 has been taking numerous things away from the cars (grooved tires, smaller engines, driver's aids, etc) so why not take some things away from the pit teams?

[buh_buh]

Grooved tires, engine restrictions, suspension restrictions and driver's aids were more of a safety issue. They were trying to slow down the cars, not the race.

[Dave P]

Does anyone have a good link to watch weather conditions this week in sao paulo? haha

[rage2]

Originally posted by buh_buh
don't watch f1 with rage. The entire race he just tries to look up nudie pictures of Lewis Hamilton and show them to you.
Don't listen to buh_buh, he's just upset that Honda and Button is sucking in F1, and not sucking on his cock :rofl:.


Originally posted by Dave P
Does anyone have a good link to watch weather conditions this week in sao paulo? haha
http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/businesstraveler/tenday/BRXX0232?from=36hr_topnav_business

[rage2]

Practice 1 complete! It's really wet out there, and only a few ppl were going hard. Hamilton did only 2 attempts at a decent lap, while Alonso didn't even go out.

Hopefully conditions are a bit better for practice 2 where we can see some comparable laptimes.

[buh_buh]

Afternoon practice is pretty dry so far.
No rain, drying track. Conditions similar to China.

[Dave P]

I was just going to mention it looks like its drying out.

1:17 was the mark and in the last 10 min lewis has ran a 1:14, kimi 1:15, and alonso 1:16

[Dave P]

Massa just ran a 1:14 to.

[Dave P]

Are you guys just watching the live timing? or is there a feed where you can actually watch?

[rage2]

It's on Speed. There's also live timing on formula1.com.

Hamilton might be getting penalized. Investigation happening after Practice 2. He apparently used the wrong tires in the morning. Mclaren made a statement saying they didn't and the FIA guy made a mistake.

[Dave P]

ahh

damn i wish i was home

although sitting at work watching live timing isnt that bad of a way to spend a friday morning at work haha.


is the live timing actual live?

at 11:02am it says there is still 28 min left?

[buh_buh]

live timing is "more live" than tv feeds we get.
28 minutes left at 11:02 makes sense. It started at 10 and its a 90 minute session.

[ryanallan]

Originally posted by rage2
It's on Speed. There's also live timing on formula1.com.

Hamilton might be getting penalized. Investigation happening after Practice 2. He apparently used the wrong tires in the morning. Mclaren made a statement saying they didn't and the FIA guy made a mistake.

O yes !

we are seeing the master plan unfold now

GO RED :burnout:

edit.
ahh darn. no grid penalty, but Hamilton gets one less set of tyres for the weekend.


The Honda, McLaren and Super Aguri teams have each been fined 15,000 euro by Brazilian Grand Prix stewards for breaking wet-weather tyre rules during Friday’s opening practice session.

Jenson Button, Lewis Hamilton and Takuma Sato all used two sets of wet-weather tyres - one more than is permitted under the Formula One sporting regulations. The drivers themselves were not penalised for the breach.

The three teams will also have to surrender the extra set of tyres that was used in order to ensure they do not benefit from having access to an additional set of part worn, or scrubbed, tyres.

[rage2]

Weird Sat practice.... Alonso is way down there, with Hamilton slotted between the Ferraris. Qualifying soon!!

[vadeit]

Screw you SPEED and Craftsman Trucks.

That is all.

[ryanallan]

They are saying that the Mclaren board voted to let Alonso go as he is destroying the team !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Back to Renault next year.

I hope button files his spot

[rage2]

I wonder what Alonso's gonna cry about this time around... :rofl:

Bad strategy? Overinflated tires? LOL! :thumbsdow

[Trini]

Times
01 F. Massa Ferrari 1:11.931
02 L. Hamilton McLaren 1:12.082
03 K. Räikkönen Ferrari 1:12.322
04 F. Alonso McLaren 1:12.356
05 M. Webber Red Bull 1:12.928
06 N. Heidfeld BMW 1:13.081
07 R. Kubica BMW 1:13.129
08 J. Trulli Toyota 1:13.195
09 D. Coulthard Red Bull 1:13.272
10 N. Rosberg Williams 1:13.477
11 R. Barrichello Honda 1:12.932
12 G. Fisichella Renault 1:12.968
13 S. Vettel Scuderia Toro Rosso 1:13.058
14 V. Liuzzi Scuderia Toro Rosso 1:13.251
15 R. Schumacher Toyota 1:13.315
16 J. Button Honda 1:13.469
17 H. Kovalainen Renault 1:14.078
18 T. Sato Super Aguri 1:14.098
19 K. Nakajima Williams 1:14.417
20 A. Davidson Super Aguri 1:14.596
21 A. Sutil Spyker F1 1:15.217
22 S. Yamamoto Spyker F1 1:15.487

[iceburns288]

Massa's pole time is really quick. I'm glad he got pole in his home race; the whole track went nuts when he won last year and it was awesome to watch. He made the Brasilians very proud!
I don't know if Hamilton will win the race, but I think he will win the championship. I think Massa might take the race from pole just like he did last year, but Hamilton will be up near the top to the point where neither Raikkoenen nor Alonso will be able to surpass his points. I would rather have Raikkoenen win (of course) but I won't mind if Hamilton wins. I just hope Alonso doesn't take it again!:thumbsdow

[ryanallan]

Something worth noting here.

Massa's fast lap last year was 10.6, and this year it was a 11.8. So what poor tyres and a less powerful engine take away, aero and other minor chassis changes give back...

[Team_Mclaren]

omfg, disaster

[BigBadVlad]

ahah! The Iceman cometh.... I think I said it earlier Raikkonen can win if Alonso is greedy and so desperate to beat Lewis that he effectively takes them out of contention and Kimi is putting in one helluva performance. Never count Ferrari out till it's over! :devil:


course it's not over....... yet go Kimi :whipped:

[rage2]

Congrats Kimi!

Fucking mechanical problems :thumbsdow

It was a good run Lewis, congrats on rewriting (almost) all of the record books this year, I'm just glad Alonso didn't take it.

At the end of the day, it was the most exciting F1 season in recent memory. Can't wait till next year!

[simke]

Kimi all the way!!!!

Karma is a bitch!

[lewdvig]

awesome season!!!

best part is that McFailen did not win!!!

AWESOME

A-W-E-S-O-M-E

[lewdvig]

Lewis will have to choke less to beat Schumi's tallies.

Or SWITCH TO FERRARI!

[rage2]

Originally posted by lewdvig
Lewis will have to choke less to beat Schumi's tallies.
Choke less? It's his rookie season :rofl:.

[bluetek]

wow....KIMI!!! nice comeback championship win.

GO FERRARI! :D

[Nav13]

what a disaster. Are the pit strategies determined before the race? or can they change them as the race progresses? sorry noob to f1, guess I picked a good year to start fallowing though.

[962 kid]

Originally posted by rage2
Congrats Kimi!

Fucking mechanical problems :thumbsdow

It was a good run Lewis, congrats on rewriting (almost) all of the record books this year, I'm just glad Alonso didn't take it.

At the end of the day, it was the most exciting F1 season in recent memory. Can't wait till next year!

mechanical problems were most likely caused by his rookie mistakes ;)

[boi-alien]

wow that was incredible!

And i agree with 962, hamilton could have just stayed behind alonso and won the WDC from there. But he decided to get angry, so too bad for him. Congratulations to Kimi.

[treg50]

Bah, too bad for Hamilton. Good job for his rookie season. 2nd best driver in the world!

Good for Kimi he hung in there all season and he beat the odds thanks to Hamilton's mistake. It's awesome Kimi's personality is almost the complete opposing of Ferrari's image.

2007 Final Driver Standings
1st Raikonnen... 110 pts
2nd Hamilton..... 109 pts
3rd Alonso........ 109 pts

It couldn't get any closer! Exciting season!:clap:

[BigBadVlad]

Wow wow wow:eek:

unreal timing for Hamilton to have gremlins attack. Well done Kimi and Ferrari. :thumbsup: Great race

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o147/popeugen_fastpunk/kimi.jpg

[Trini]

tough luck hamilton.you did well in your rookie season.
congrats to the iceman:thumbsup:

[rage2]

Well looks like the transmission problem was caused by Lewis himself. According to Pedro De La Rosa, when Hamilton went off, the gearbox heated up a lot (debris on the transmission cooler?) and the ECU shut it down for a brief moment to protect the gearbox. So it was his stupid fight with Alonso (which wasn't really necessary) that started the chain reaction.

[vadeit]

Originally posted by rage2
Well looks like the transmission problem was caused by Lewis himself. According to Pedro De La Rosa, when Hamilton went off, the gearbox heated up a lot (debris on the transmission cooler?) and the ECU shut it down for a brief moment to protect the gearbox. So it was his stupid fight with Alonso (which wasn't really necessary) that started the chain reaction.

Similar mindset cost him in China. No need to push the pace as hard as he did, killing the tires. Rookie mistakes. That being said, once he gets some more experience, can control his red mist and a race pace better he will be scary. Could another decade of dominance by one driver be almost upon F1?

[Revhard]

I agree, best season I can remember.
Glad the "red" team pulled it off, sucks for Massa...
Maybe Honda will have a motor next year...
Ralph Schumy FTMFL!!!
Who will drive for Honda next year to replace Barrichello?
Is Button still in contract?
Is Alonso moving?
Any good newbs coming in?

[rage2]

Originally posted by vadeit
Similar mindset cost him in China. No need to push the pace as hard as he did, killing the tires. Rookie mistakes. That being said, once he gets some more experience, can control his red mist and a race pace better he will be scary. Could another decade of dominance by one driver be almost upon F1?
Hard to say, it's highly doubtful Lewis will leave McLaren. Which means McLaren must produce several championship contending cars in order for it to happen.

[ryanallan]

YES ! What a glorious day in motor racing.

I couldn't believe what i was seeing watching Hamilton make mistake after mistake today.
I and i didn't see one shot of Ron through out the entire race. I feel bad for him after watching his season crumble to pieces this year...

But it feels great listing to the Italian anthem for the last time this season.

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/8310/55948070032bramw9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[vadeit]

Originally posted by rage2

Hard to say, it's highly doubtful Lewis will leave McLaren. Which means McLaren must produce several championship contending cars in order for it to happen.

Agreed, but one reason Schumi and Ferrari were able to be so dominate was of the relationship that was built up between driver and team. The mechanics and engineers would have walked through a wall for Schumi. In turn Schumi treated them like gold. I think that this sort of relationship might be well on its way between Hamilton and the McLaren team.

The only thing I think that McLaren is missing that Ferrari had during their dominate period is a race tactician as good as Brawn was. If I remember correctly the Brawn/Schumi combo won all his championships, including at Benetton.

[/////AMG]

:( for Hamilton

Congrats to Kimi though.

Theres always next year...

[TheCheff]

:thumbsup: for kimi, lots of mistakes from louis today ahh well he will learn from them and come back stronger next season. congrats Kimi!!!!!

[cloud7]

It was a disaster race for Lewis and he really did not have to put himselve in that situation (just like China)... Alonso was nowhere near him when he went off and just outbraked themselve into Turn 4. As rage said, the tranmission problem was probably caused by his brief off track excursion. The Ferarris (especially Massa) were just too fast as Alonso said... Kimi has to thank Massa a lot for deliberately going slowly when Kimi was doing his last stop. I hope Kimi will be willing to do the same when Massa needs the support in the future.

Latest report from the FIA is that BMW and William cars are under investigation for possible technical irregularities on their cars. The reports are that the fuel temperatures are too low (over 10 degrees less than ambient). Rosberg, Kubica and Heidfeld finished 4th, 5th, and 6th respectively in the race. If they were to be disqualified, it would move McLaren’s Lewis Hamilton up from 4th. This would give Lewis the championship. We will wait and see.

[Team_Mclaren]

They are not making a huge deal out of it... yet... so i doubt anythign will happen. :dunno:

edit: actually just read more into it, they wont take disco the drivers. If anything its gonna be a something minor

[cloud7]

Originally posted by Team_Mclaren
They are not making a huge deal out of it... yet... so i doubt anythign will happen. :dunno:

I think most likely Williams and BMW will have constructors points deducted but the drivers will keep their points. There will for sure be punishment for this, but how big is the question. May or may not make the difference for Lewis.

[hjr]

nothing will happen and kimi is confirmed as champ:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7055644.stm

[rage2]

McLaren has protested the stewards decisions. So the championship is still up in the air.

BTW, colder fuel can give a huge power advantage. The guys were 2-3 degrees off, which is about 10-20hp difference. This fuel regulation was made back in the early 90's because McLaren and Ferrari were nearly freezing their fuel for huge gains.

[redline]

Originally posted by rage2
McLaren has protested the stewards decisions. So the championship is still up in the air.



:drama:

Mclaren just has to face that they cheated and lost... time to move on. Then the everyone can get off the LH bus

[cloud7]

Originally posted by rage2
McLaren has protested the stewards decisions. So the championship is still up in the air.

BTW, colder fuel can give a huge power advantage. The guys were 2-3 degrees off, which is about 10-20hp difference. This fuel regulation was made back in the early 90's because McLaren and Ferrari were nearly freezing their fuel for huge gains.

I was watching Speed last night and Peter Windsor said that the stewart in Brazil gave no penalties because there were questions regarding what the actual ambient temp was and if the instruments measure the fuel temps of BMW and Williams were accurate. Peter said that Ron has taken the issue to Charlie Whiting because the fuel temp rule was one of the rule that was clarified at the beginning of the year and there should be no ambiguity of what the ambient temp is.

The fuel temp problem could have been due to the fact that temperature at Interlagoes was higher than predicted and BMW and Williams probably forgot to readjust the fuel cooler to a temp setting of (ACTUAL ambient - 10 degrees).

[rage2]

Originally posted by cloud7
The fuel temp problem could have been due to the fact that temperature at Interlagoes was higher than predicted and BMW and Williams probably forgot to readjust the fuel cooler to a temp setting of (ACTUAL ambient - 10 degrees).
BMW and Williams had their fuel measured after the conclusion of the race, and it was within spec (9C below ambient). So they definately adjusted mid race after the last pitstop lol. Ambient temp did not change at all.

BMW was also warned of breaching this once already this year when they were under allowable by 0.5C.

[z06power]

Biggest choke job this year in motorsports. Hamilton couldn't deal with the pressure last race or at the Brazilian GP. Like I had said way back when everyone was nuthugging on him - if he had been in a crappy car like Honda/Toyota, he wouldn't have done crap this year. Mclaren cheated to get their vehicles up to the level of the Ferrari's but Hamilton choked and cost them the title. Disgraceful that they are still appealing BMW's fuel issues. As Alonso said Kimi deserved to win.

[Team_Mclaren]

Originally posted by z06power
Biggest choke job this year in motorsports. Hamilton couldn't deal with the pressure last race or at the Brazilian GP. Like I had said way back when everyone was nuthugging on him - if he had been in a crappy car like Honda/Toyota, he wouldn't have done crap this year. Mclaren cheated to get their vehicles up to the level of the Ferrari's but Hamilton choked and cost them the title. Disgraceful that they are still appealing BMW's fuel issues. As Alonso said Kimi deserved to win.

Alonso, 2 time world champion, finished with the same amount of points as Lewis. He must be a shitty driver too.

Doubt anything would come out of the appeal. It's just too controversial

[treg50]

Originally posted by redline


:drama:

Mclaren just has to face that they cheated and lost... time to move on. Then the everyone can get off the LH bus
Well if BMW was negligent and didn't not regulate their fuel temps, they fucked up. This would give them an illegal advantage a.k.a cheating. BMW needs to face that and accept their penalty.

If McLaren makes and wins one protest this year, I HOPE they win this protest.

[boi-alien]

Originally posted by treg50

Well if BMW was negligent and didn't not regulate their fuel temps, they fucked up. This would give them an illegal advantage a.k.a cheating. BMW needs to face that and accept their penalty.

If McLaren makes and wins one protest this year, I HOPE they win this protest.
i think it's a pretty shitty way to win if they have to win it in court.

[lewdvig]

I would not put it past Ron Denis. They are poor sports.

McLaren only lose when they have a crappy race - never because the other teams are good.

They lost the championship because they did not clarify who was the #1. Clearly LH needed more time to learn. They should have given the edge to Alonso. This is not Prost and Senna again - the 2007 car was nowhere near as dominant so they needed to have a clear leader. Instead they diluted points and lost.

[rage2]

Originally posted by boi-alien
i think it's a pretty shitty way to win if they have to win it in court.
I agree with you here. It's ironic that Ferrari doesn't agree tho! After the McLaren verdict, Ferrari says they were happy to win the constructors championship even if it was in the courts! :rofl:

[Team_Mclaren]

Originally posted by rage2

I agree with you here. It's ironic that Ferrari doesn't agree tho! After the McLaren verdict, Ferrari says they were happy to win the constructors championship even if it was in the courts! :rofl:

That would be pretty crazy, one wins the constructors in count, and the other gets the world champ the same way.

[rage2]

As an interesting note, before all this illegal fuel came into play, buh_buh and I were talking about how fast the BMW's and Williams were. The BMW blew by Alonso in turn 1 pretty good, and the Williams were scrapping with the BMW's haha.

[HHURICANE1]

I rather doubt there will be any positions taken away, it would look bad for the FIA. If anything happens at all I would bet on a fine or points loss to Williams and BMW, not loss of positions in the race.

[iceburns288]

I think BMW and Williams should lose their constructor's points, because that is what happened to McLaren, if they are found guilty. If McLaren's drivers were allowed immunity, why shouldn't the other teams'?

[ryanallan]

Well the Mclaren spy scandal thing was a bit more extreme in terms of rule breaking than a fuel temp cheat.

I agree that BMW and Williams should have their constructor points taken away for the Brazilian GP if found guilty, but not for the entire season.

[Nav13]

I really hate being the noob horing up this thread, but since the season is pretty much over, what harm is it if BMW and Williams lose their constructors points? Does this seasons points determine something for the start of the next season?

[lewdvig]

If the stewards say that the evidence is inconclusive, what is there to debate?

And what advantage would they have vis a vis the other cars? This was a micro race within the greater context. If all three had fuel irregularities, what was the gain?

LH would still have not caught them, and they were behind KR, PM and FA.

[euro tang]

I’ve been keeping up with this thread all season and would like to comment on one thing.

z06power, you’re right man. If Hamilton raced for Honda or Toyota, he’d hardly score any points. IMO, He’s not the 2nd best driver in the world.

Congrats to Kimi.

As for the fuel temp thing, I doubt anything will change as well.

[iceburns288]

Originally posted by ryanallan
Well the Mclaren spy scandal thing was a bit more extreme in terms of rule breaking than a fuel temp cheat.

I agree that BMW and Williams should have their constructor points taken away for the Brazilian GP if found guilty, but not for the entire season.
Yeah, just to clarify, this is what I meant. Lose their points for the race, not the season.

[buh_buh]

often, sponsors pay according to points. So taking points away from a race may take away some sponsor revenue to teams.

[Ripper]

Looks like hamilton blew it on his own accord... not an overheated transmission.




Lewis Hamilton has admitted that his bid for this year's Formula One Championship seemingly came to an end during the last race of the season following a moment of human error.

"My finger slipped on the steering wheel and I accidentally pressed the button used for the starting sequence," Hamilton confided several hours after the event, according to Montreal's French-language daily newspaper La Presse.

That error cut power to his McLaren for an interminable minute, dropping him down to 18th place as the Brazilian Grand Prix entered its eighth lap on the Interlagos circuit.

"The car went into neutral and I had to reinitialize the system, that is, reload the gearbox management program," he explained. The onboard camera recorded images of Hamilton pressing several buttons on his steering wheel while other drivers sped by.

Once his McLaren car was back up to speed, Hamilton would afterwards work his way back up to seventh place, two positions away from the necessary number of points that would have allowed him to be the first rookie World Champion.


However, his title chances might not yet be over: the McLaren team has announced it will appeal the stewards' decision not to sanction the BMW Sauber and Williams teams for possibly using 'cool fuel' during the Brazilian GP, claiming that precise information was not available.

If the FIA's Court of Appeal were to overturn the decision and sanction both teams with exclusion, that would remove drivers Nico Rosberg, Robert Kubica and Nick Heidfeld from the rankings and allow Lewis Hamilton to jump from seventh to fourth position in the race's final standings - thereby giving him enough points to become the 2007 World Champion.

While McLaren have declared their motive is to support their drivers' best interests, Hamilton himself does not at all feel comfortable with the procedure.

"Being promoted after some people have been thrown out is not the way I want to do it," he told Reuters.

His thoughts also went to Ferrari driver and provisional title holder Kimi Raikkonen: "To have it taken away is a bit cruel and probably not good for the sport."



http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/071022220432.shtml

[Nav13]

Originally posted by buh_buh
often, sponsors pay according to points. So taking points away from a race may take away some sponsor revenue to teams.

ah makes sense, thanks alot.

[treg50]

Originally posted by Ripper
Looks like hamilton blew it on his own accord... not an overheated transmission.


Any news on how BMW blew regulating their fuel temperature?

The FIA better show the world that it's not as corrupt & biased as we think. They're basically faced with two choices:
A. Penalize all teams (ie. BMW) accordingly when there is reason to.
B. Preserve another decision for Ferrari and a Ferrari driver, just to keep Ferrari people happy.

Given the FIA's past record as another shitshow euro-organization (a la FIFA) I'm betting they choose B, when they should be choosing A.

[Ripper]

Why is nothing out of the Mclaren camp a simple straightfoward answer? Haha...





McLaren have rejected suggestions that Lewis Hamilton's gearbox failure in the Brazilian Grand Prix was due to him pressing the wrong button on his steering wheel.

Hamilton was seen slowing down almost to a halt on lap eight of Sunday's race, dropping from sixth to 18th place, but was then able to regain speed.

The incident sparked rumours suggesting the 22-year-old pushed the wrong button on his steering wheel, which in turn left his car in neutral until he was given instructions over the radio how to reset the system.

Compounding these rumours was a report in Montreal's newspaper La Presse, which quotes Hamilton directly as saying he indeed pushed the wrong button.

However, a source close to the Hamilton family has described the report as "absolute rubbish", telling autosport.com that Hamilton has not spoken to the Canadian newspaper or said anything as such to anyone.

A McLaren spokesperson also denied the report and said the failure was not down to human error.

"We can confirm that the temporary gear shifting problem Lewis suffered on lap eight of the Brazilian Grand Prix was due to a default in the gearbox that selected neutral for a period of time," she said.

"It was not as a result of Lewis pressing an incorrect button on his steering wheel."

McLaren F1 CEO Martin Whitmarsh also ruled out driver error and said the likely reason is hydraulic valve failure.

"It was a gearbox problem, and it went into forced-neutral and changing down seemed to rectify it - it might be mechanical, but we doubt it," he told Autosport magazine.

"If it was something mechanical, they usually don't fix themselves. It could be electronics software - but there's no evidence in the analysis to support that. Could be a sensor - but again, there's no evidence in the data recordings.

"So it would appear that the barrels that change gear went out of control - and out of control of the driver - and that's probably hydraulic.

"That could be either a very small Moog servo control valves that were interfered with by a tiny piece of debris or they are sensitive to magnetic interference - something generated a magnetic field which caused the valve to misbehave."

[boi-alien]

Originally posted by treg50

Any news on how BMW blew regulating their fuel temperature?

The FIA better show the world that it's not as corrupt & biased as we think. They're basically faced with two choices:
A. Penalize all teams (ie. BMW) accordingly when there is reason to.
B. Preserve another decision for Ferrari and a Ferrari driver, just to keep Ferrari people happy.

Given the FIA's past record as another shitshow euro-organization (a la FIFA) I'm betting they choose B, when they should be choosing A.

or Option C. That doesn't take away from Kimi's great drive in the 2nd half.

and that's penalize Williams and BMW by revoking their constructors points but leave the race result as is.

[forkdork]

Title to be decided on Nov. 15



McLaren's hopes of Lewis Hamilton being awarded the Formula One World Championship will be put to the test on November 15.


Hamilton lost the title by one point to Ferrari's Kimi Raikkonen when finishing seventh at the final round of the season in Brazil after the Finn won the race.


But the FIA's International Court of Appeal will hear McLaren's appeal against the decision of the stewards at Interlagos not to punish the BMW and Williams teams after the temperature of the fuel in their cars was found to be outside the regulations.


Hamilton finished the race behind the Williams of Nico Rosberg and the BMW Saubers of Robert Kubica and Nick Heidfeld but if all three were removed from the results, that would give the Briton the title.


But Max Mosley, president of the FIA which governs F1, said: "For us, the World Championship is over, the result is what it is.


"A team presented an appeal; at the moment, this doesn't change anything - it's up to them to prove they are right," Mosley told Autosport.


"You could argue whether McLaren had a right to appeal," he added.


"They could have protested the result, but they didn't. Apparently they didn't measure the temperature of the fuel.


"But even if the cars classified ahead of Hamilton would be excluded, would this change his position? The court of appeal will have to rule on that."




So MM has made it pretty clear that nothing is going to happen.

[TurboCarrera]

Originally posted by ryanallan
Well the Mclaren spy scandal thing was a bit more extreme in terms of rule breaking than a fuel temp cheat.



how do you figure that ? chilled fuel = power + distance advantage. none of the ferrari papers affected a race in mclaren's favor except to point out ferraris cheating.

[rage2]

Originally posted by TurboCarrera
how do you figure that ? chilled fuel = power + distance advantage. none of the ferrari papers affected a race in mclaren's favor except to point out ferraris cheating.
People don't realize that cars are designed well in advance, and any current documentation of a competitor, especially once the season is underway, is pretty much useless... only useful for knowing what the competition is doing. This is why McLaren was not punished initially. The subsequent fine and meeting was because Stepney <-> Coughlan <-> De La Rosa <-> Alonso were found to have gotten data that COULD have been used as an advantage. The big one was the CO2 mixture that Ferrari was using to inflate the tires to reduce tire blistering, with pit stop strategies a distant second. Those items were the reasons for the $100m fine, not the Ferrari docs from Coughlan in April. What's funny was the only time the info was used was De La Rosa speaking with a Bridgestone engineer asking if CO2 would make any difference. Bridgestone said no. Alonso then asked to test it anyways, but the McLaren engineers rejected it and that was the end of it.

Currently, the 2008 cars are all done at the design level. From now until unveiling, it's pretty much manufacturing, FIA crash tests, with the first chassis available for testing sometime around Dec. At which time, teams only have 1 person testing the 2008 car, with the other drivers testing 2007 spec cars modified to resemble the 2008 cars as closely as possible. It takes about 1 month to build a chassis from scratch. If you read the transcripts from the last meeting, the FIA wanted to inspect the 2008 car to ensure there's no Ferrari IP in the design. Ron Dennis wanted the FIA to do it right away to get it over with. The 2008 designs are done already.

Why's McLaren appealing? Well, wouldn't you? All teams share data one way or another. Sometimes u get the truth from competing engineers, sometimes u get misinformation to throw you off... it's all part of the game. It just gave a nice excuse for the FIA to take down McLaren, or at least distract them, since they were looking like they were in the best shape to take out Ferrari. A closer battle in the championship would've been much more profitable for FOM, and the scandal would lead to lots of press. Any press is good press, the ratings for the last race was record breaking in almost every country.

McLaren got investigated and fined for everything this year. Hell, even at Monaco, they were investigated for Team Orders because Hamilton was pulled in to pit 3 laps early to ensure he didn't pass Alonso. It was a McLaren witch hunt this year by the FIA, simple as that. McLaren's pretty upset over the whole deal, look at the Ferraris... for instance China, when it was blatantly obvious that Massa was pulled in to let Kimi take the win. Blatant team orders, not even a hint of an investigation. Then the whole BMW and Williams fuel ordeal came along, they blatantly BROKE a rule which BMW has already been warned about 3 weeks prior for breaching (by only 0.5C), and they get away with zero penalty.

If I was McLaren, I'd do the same thing just for laughs haha. Not to mention if the order moves up, it's worth $15m as they would move up on top of Ferrari in the virtual WCC. That's a lot of dough.

Unfortunately, there's no real winner in this whole ordeal. I do not want Hamilton to win the championship like this, even if the 2 cars did cheat and he would've won. Its not something to be remember'd by, winning a WDC through the courts. He's got a bright future, and will probably rack up a few on virtues of skills in the upcoming years of his career.

[buh_buh]

The title won't be changing hands. Its already way too late. It'll cause too much controversy to give the title to Hamilton now, and do you really think the FIA would take it away from Ferrari and give it to McLaren? Even if BMW and Williams are found guilty of using illegal fuel, they'll just have their points taken away, and nobody moves up.

[rage2]

Originally posted by buh_buh
The title won't be changing hands. Its already way too late. It'll cause too much controversy to give the title to Hamilton now, and do you really think the FIA would take it away from Ferrari and give it to McLaren? Even if BMW and Williams are found guilty of using illegal fuel, they'll just have their points taken away, and nobody moves up.
Exactly.

FIA won't do anything to take championships away from Ferrari haha.

[962 kid]

Originally posted by buh_buh
The title won't be changing hands. Its already way too late. It'll cause too much controversy to give the title to Hamilton now, and do you really think the FIA would take it away from Ferrari and give it to McLaren? Even if BMW and Williams are found guilty of using illegal fuel, they'll just have their points taken away, and nobody moves up.

The FIA *should* DQ the Williams and BMW cars, but at this point I don't think there's a person alive that would want that. :drama:

[rage2]

Ya, it'll be interesting what the FIA does. There's really no way they can do anything without pissing someone off. No penalties? Watch everyone freeze their fuel next year. DSQ? Watch everyone bitch about Hamilton cheating his way to a championship lol.

Imagine what would've happened if Hamilton came 4th, took the WDC, and the McLarens was found with fuel too cold... :rofl:. Would've came out a lot different than what we've got now!

[buh_buh]

my prediction: Williams and BMW found guilty, points are taken away, but everyone else keeps current points (no points awarded for 4th, 5th, 6th, Hamilton remains 7th). Standings remain the same.

That way Max can still "allow" Ferrari to win without letting BMW and Williams get away with cheating.