Wondering if Pinnacle Security is a fraud?

[writhen]

Hey all, I was approached by pinnacle at the UofC job fair this past month. They're a sales company that basically takes a crew of 30 odd people down to a city in the US (Portland this year) and try to 'sell' home alarm systems. Well technically the alarm system itself is free, but the customer has to put up a sign on their lawn and pay the $30 a month usage fee. So it seems to be a good deal for the alarm company, pinnacle, and the customer.

They claim a whole lot of great things. Garaunteed 10g's US if you work properly. Average income last year was 22g's US. Top first year sales rep last year earned $160,000 supposedly. They also claim to offer frequent incentives and bonuses (such as $500 to just agree to work for them, $1000 to go to the training seminars, etc).

Honestly, it seems way too good to be true. Is there a catch somewhere?

It's hard not to believe because the guy who interviewed me is a regional manager for pinnacle at the age of 24. He's doing his science degree at the UofC (last year) and has been with the company for 3 years. Over those three years, he's bought himself a house, another house as rental property, a 2007 3 series, a 2001 gs300, and has his student loan paid off. He looks pretty rich since he picked me up in the 3 series, was well dressed with some expensive clothes, had an expensive laptop, etc....

I'm honestly not sure what to believe. My friends parents think its a scam, my parents are telling me to take the gamble and try it out for a summer. Anyone got any advice?

[Rav4Guy]

Haven't heard of them before.. but... I'm just commenting on the part where you said "He looked rich". His house; 80-90% mortgage? his car: leased? 22K US isn't all that much and I'm pretty sure you can get a higher wage for a comparable position here in Calgary.

[shtock99]

my friend is doing this, im not sure it is with the same company but they are going to detroit and the company he is going with is clean, he said he couldnt find the smallest thing wrong with the company, so maybe do some research on the company and see what you can find, but if its the same company its legit and you can make a shit load of cash if your a good salesmen

[writhen]

Thanks for the replies guys.


Originally posted by Rav4Guy
Haven't heard of them before.. but... I'm just commenting on the part where you said "He looked rich". His house; 80-90% mortgage? his car: leased? 22K US isn't all that much and I'm pretty sure you can get a higher wage for a comparable position here in Calgary.

His house he put 45% down cash. Both his cars were fully paid off in cash. He claims to have totalled close to 300,000 last year with all investments and everything included. 22K US is just the bare minimum average. Like I said, the top guy made 160K, so it's all dependant on how hard you want to work. Where can I find a higher paying job in Calgary as a first year science student? I don't mean to come off as defensive, i apologize if i did.


Originally posted by shtock99
my friend is doing this, im not sure it is with the same company but they are going to detroit and the company he is going with is clean, he said he couldnt find the smallest thing wrong with the company, so maybe do some research on the company and see what you can find, but if its the same company its legit and you can make a shit load of cash if your a good salesmen

What exactly are they doing? Selling alarms as well? Do you mind getting me the name of the company please? Is it Apex (cus that's pinnacles competing company in AB). I've been trying to do some research on them, but they're only 7 years old, and only really took off like a year and a bit ago. So there's not much on them on the internet besides their own website and a jobfacts review in which they were highly rated.

[shtock99]

yeah he is going with apex, he called the better business bureau and checked the company out so maybe do that just to make sure but it sounds legit to me

[5hift]

Something doesnt seem right to me about this. Think about how many customers you would need ($30/month per) before your company would be big enough to offer huge amounts of money to people at pretty much entry level sales jobs. Also I find it weird that Canadians would fly to the US to sell alarm systems. Maybe its just me but it seems most people would prefer to go locally with that type of thing?

Is there any start up costs or fees? Do you have to pay for your flight down to the US and expenses there?

Edit: Also if this company was legit dont you think word of mouth alone would make it so people lined up for this job, and not them having to approach random people at job fairs?

[writhen]

cool man, thanks for the tip. I just called the BBB and they turned up with no complaints since becoming members in 2003.

[Rav4Guy]

No, I'm not offended by your comment. It's just that $22,000USD is approximately $25,800CDN. Working at a place like Superstore at nights won't make you that amount? I don't have any experience that area but I'm assuming one can make more than that.

There really isn't anything you can lose out of trying it out. If it doesn't work.. it doesn't work. Huge upside.. very little downside IMO.

[writhen]

Originally posted by 5hift
Something doesnt seem right to me about this. Think about how many customers you would need ($30/month per) before your company would be big enough to offer huge amounts of money to people at pretty much entry level sales jobs. Also I find it weird that Canadians would fly to the US to sell alarm systems. Maybe its just me but it seems most people would prefer to go locally with that type of thing?

Is there any start up costs or fees? Do you have to pay for your flight down to the US and expenses there?

Edit: Also if this company was legit don't you think word of mouth alone would make it so people lined up for this job, and not them having to approach random people at job fairs?

Ok I'll try to answer as much as I know:

The way it works is that as soon as a sales rep sells an alarm system contract to a customer, ADT (the alarm company) offers pinnacle around $1300 straight up for the contract. In return, ADT gets a customer for 3 years who pays the total of $1200 over 3 years as well as advertises for them (sign on lawn). Statistically there is a 98% chance that ADT will keep the same customer after the 3 year period, and this is where they make their profits on the customer.

Pinnacle on the other hand use the $1300 for the contract to buy the alarm itself for $300, pay the sales rep $300-$400 per sale, and disperses the rest of the pay between managers, regional managers, and the installers. It seems that the managers and regional managers get less out of a single contract, and they do, but they also get money out of every sales rep's contract who is employed under them. therefore, they make far more money in the end when compared to an installer or sales rep.

As far as flying down there goes, there are a few reasons for that. They found business is stronger and they have a better name in the states. Pinnacle and Apex (competitor) have only been in Canada for under 2 years. They still have to work out the marketing bugs in Canada in order to optimize income for the reps and managers. They tried selling in Canada as soon as they got here 2 years ago, but the pay off for the reps/managers was not worth the effort and time.

Also it is company policy and they believe that if you take an individual out of his/her comfort zone, they pay more attention and work harder. As far as intial payment from employee, there is none. Pinnacle pays for your visa, offers to drive you down to Portland in the company bus, and pays you $1500 before even leaving Canada. You can use this money to buy a plane ticket if you really want, but it is not needed.

And lastly this is the first year they went to a job fair. Since their inception in 1999, the company has been striving on internet advertising and word of mouth alone. Also, they take potential sales reps out to sell a few systems in Calgary to see their potential. Only the ones who can show adequate potential will be taken down to Portland.

[writhen]

Originally posted by Rav4Guy
No, I'm not offended by your comment. It's just that $22,000USD is approximately $25,800CDN. Working at a place like Superstore at nights won't make you that amount? I don't have any experience that area but I'm assuming one can make more than that.

There really isn't anything you can lose out of trying it out. If it doesn't work.. it doesn't work. Huge upside.. very little downside IMO.

Umm no, I'm almost certain a safeway job wont get you that much even with nights. I forklifted for 4 months for pepsi doing the graveyard shift ($18 an hour, plus $22 an hour overtime). We usually got 8 hours regular, and 4 hours over time. I pretty much came to $240 something a day. Even with that income I only made $18,000. I guess that is significant, but I'm gonna guess that forklifting for pepsi pays quite a bit better than working at safeway.

[Kona9]

I would be careful, as there was a company in Kelowna called Pinnacle. Same type of deal but Vacuum based sales. This was back in 1999-2001. Eventually got shut down.

Does it not strike you as odd when someone has to tell you about their personal financial position on many levels to convince you to go to the US to make minimum wage selling yard signage for free alarms?

BBB may not have complaints, but be cautious.

[writhen]

Thanks for the advice. I know about the vacuum guys you talk about. One of those guys came to our house too. He was asking $1500 for some high quality dust mite killing, Arnold Schwarzenegger ass-kicking inferno vacuum type deal. On the other hand, all pinnacle asks from the customer is the call center fee of 30 bucks a month for the alarm, and a 100 dollar initializing fee.

Oh and he didn't tell me anything about his financial situation. He never even brought it up. I just questioned him about everything I could think of, a million times. I think he almost got annoyed at one point lol.

Again, thanks for the concern though. You do make a good point, it is kind of scary, and I'm still not sure what to completely make of it. I guess going out for one summer and giving it a shot won't hurt................too much (I hope).

[Kona9]

Originally posted by writhen
Thanks for the advice. I know about the vacuum guys you talk about. One of those guys came to our house too. He was asking $1500 for some high quality dust mite killing, Arnold Schwarzenegger ass-kicking inferno vacuum type deal. On the other hand, all pinnacle asks from the customer is the call center fee of 30 bucks a month for the alarm, and a 100 dollar initializing fee.

Oh and he didn't tell me anything about his financial situation. He never even brought it up. I just questioned him about everything I could think of, a million times. I think he almost got annoyed at one point lol.

Again, thanks for the concern though. You do make a good point, it is kind of scary, and I'm still not sure what to completely make of it. I guess going out for one summer and giving it a shot won't hurt................too much (I hope).

if it is a risk you are willing to take, then It will be a story we are willing to hear!

Good luck if you choose to go!:thumbsup:

[writhen]

Thanks a lot :) I guess unless someone comes on here and really bad mouths them or I hear negative comments from any other source, I'm just gonna close my eyes and dive in. I guess it's a bad way of doing things, but hey you gotta gamble once in a while, right? :nut:

[DRKM]

Umm no, I'm almost certain a safeway job wont get you that much even with nights. I forklifted for 4 months for pepsi doing the graveyard shift ($18 an hour, plus $22 an hour overtime). We usually got 8 hours regular, and 4 hours over time. I pretty much came to $240 something a day. Even with that income I only made $18,000. I guess that is significant, but I'm gonna guess that forklifting for pepsi pays quite a bit better than working at safeway.


Umm 18/hour is around $40 000 so to make half that AKA 25000 you need to make ~$12. Which is pretty fair since everyone is strapped for workers....

[Rav4Guy]

^ that's what i'm thinking... the math doesn't work out unless he's working... 1-2times a week.

[writhen]

Anyways, I'm not sure how you get 25,000. say you earn 15 bucks an hour and you work for 8 hours (regular safeway type hours, with overestimated pay imo)...you earn $120 a day. multiply that by 5, even 6 days a week you get $720 a week. That makes $2880 a month, and $11520 for 4 months. After tax is deducted, you'll be lucky to make 10 grand. Please explain how you get the $25,000 with 12 bucks an hour?

If you do with 4 hours overtime, count ot as time and a half, you get 15x8 for 120 dollars + 22.50x4 for 90 dollars which makes $210 a day. Then you make $1050 a week and $4200 a month. If you work the entire summer for 12 hours 5 days a week without fail, you only make $16,800. After tax is done it'll be closer to $15,000.

My pepsi job I made ($18 x 8 hours)+($22x 4 hours) which makes $232 a day give or take. that makes $1160 a week, and $4640 a month. Multiply that by 4 for 4 months and you get $18560.

[TurboMedic]

I believe they were talking about a year.....or 12 months.....or 3 times as long as you worked for pepsi.....

[RawB8figure]

Originally posted by writhen
Please explain how you get the $25,000 with 12 bucks an hour?




If you are trying to figure out what you make annually try figuring out what you make in a week and then times that by 52 weeks and you will get the annual salary.

ei. 12$/Hr x 8 = 96$/day x5= 480$/week x 52wk= 24960$ / year

[writhen]

I'm talking about in the summer. I only work in the summer. Sorry for the miscommunication :)

[Rav4Guy]

^ ah... you need to be a bit clearer when trying to prove a point.

back on topic. Lots of jobs pay $25,000/year gross.

[TurboMedic]

Originally posted by RawB8figure



If you are trying to figure out what you make annually try figuring out what you make in a week and then times that by 52 weeks and you will get the annual salary.

ei. 12$/Hr x 8 = 96$/day x5= 480$/week x 52wk= 24960$ / year

Or just multiply your hourly rate by 2080hrs/yr..... does it all in one calculation (that is based on a 40hr work week though, some people like me are 42, which is 2184, or 35, etc.....)

[freshprince]

I didn't read all the posts, but am very well acquainted with this industry as I did the same job a couple years ago, in San Diego for the whole company.

I know a regional manager for Pinnacle, his name is Gabe and he is one of my best friends.

First off, the job is NOT a scam. Secondly, they company pays well to have thier manager's very well taken care of; and to look good so they will be able to recruit a lot of people.

There is a very real possibility to earn incredible money. I personally earned $22,000 US the first year I went, I have only done it once. The job is gruelling, and very intense, all summer long, and you are paid 100% commission.

The long and the short of it is if you go out and put your time in on the doorsteps everyday, you'll probably make at least $13,000 US. You have to be very assertive and and a knack for sales, as you are selling security system contracts door-to-door all summer long.

These companies do well because they sell the contracts, then the actual security provider (i.e. ADT, Brinks...) buys it off them for about $1200 per contract, so the commissions are high.

It's not a scam, but the one thing they don't tell you is how hard the job is, it is very hard. But it is also rewarding if you are there to make money and not just party. The companies throw around a lot of money to come off attractive and hip, but they usually have great incentive programs to keep you motivated.

By no means expect any freebies, or easy work.

pm me if you have any questions, as I will answer them unbiasedly.

[msommers]

I noticed this guy in mac hall as well and saw the average income signs posted on his table.

With what you were saying, it immediately led me to think this:

A) If it was so great, why is he at the U of C needing to recruit people?

B) If it was so great, why arn't people doing this full-time all year round instead of needing "summer help"?

I find it hard to believe that "we are not well known and a lot of people don't want to take the risk". What is more unbelievable is that people can make more money working just the summer selling alarms(including what else is required) than lots of people in the oilpatch make all year.

Another thing to consider, you're going to get taxed CDN and US income tax.

The way I see it, if it was as great as likes to pretend, he wouldn't need to advertise to students, everyone would know about it and be trying to get in on it.

[freshprince]

you do not get taxed both US and CAN, I didn't.

they like students, because a student work VISA is a one time payment, easily processed one. A Work VISA is very expensive and extensive paperwork is needed.

The risk does scare most people off, because its 100% commission, and then there's the ones who just think its a scam.

Like I said, I've done this job, only rarely does one sell $100K and up, usually you'll earn between $15-20K US. I did well, but hated life while doing it, and want to focus on my professional career not just a money grab selling security door-to-door.

But it is not a scam, just very hard work.

[writhen]

Thanks for the tip. That really helped me make my decision. Yeah, the guy I talked to was named Gabe K. So he's probably your friend. Again, I don't mind working hard and as a first year I haven't been able to land any career oriented jobs. Hence, I figure I do this for 2 or 3 years, make a significant amount of money and just keep it for a rainy day. I dunno, makes sense to me. Anyways, thanks again for confirming what I already thought.

[gsus]

Yeah I'm going with APX to Fresno, CA this summer for the first time and am pretty stoked for it.

The way I look at it, I cant really loose because during the summer last year lifeguarding full time I made around 13-14 g's... With apx if I were to only sell 60 systems throughout the whole summer, I'm taking home $12,500, so basically I will have spent my whole summer in California in a 1st class apartment w/ a pool n stuff, got the experience, and made what I would of back home.
The average rep last year sold between 75-100 systems, equaling $18,750-$31,300... and it only goes in larger increments from there... eg 125 sales = $45,550

Knowing that I am good with people and have some pretty good ideas about selling, those numbers make me pretty confident...

btw is anyone else on here coming to fresno with Jared this summer?

[writhen]

I know a couple guys, but I myself am heading down to portland with gabe.

[John Cono]

Hi,


This is quite similar to the ADT Dealer program that I was involved with for many years where they promise you the world to get you started and then the rug is pulled out from under your feet.

Normally, the $500 to start is based on a contract you must commitment to for employment.

Here is an example. You sign a commitment contract for at least 3 months stating that you must work 40 hours a week for the next 12 weeks.You would be supervised to ensure you are working and be knocking doors everyday. Over that period of time you will sell enough alarm systems so that the $500 so called bonus is more than made back for the Company. If you quit then your bonus is gone as well and commissions can be forfeited as a breach of the employee contract.

The average alarm rep in the US sells 10-12 accounts per month based on a full time commitment. Only exceptional sales people reach the levels he is talking about. This would be a commission of $2000 a month or $24,000.00 a year. If you break that down hourly its roughly $12.50 an hour. Doesn't sound too impressive does it? And this of course is if you manage to be an average alarm sales person after your training and familiarization period. The truth is that for every great sales person there have been 100 people that have failed miserably with this opportunity. This is not to discredit the business nor the Company but its the plain & simple truth. I have been in the business now more than a decade and this program is nothing new.

All Companies will show off the most successful people and say that it can be done with ease. That's the hook so be prepared and if the bonus has no attachments then ask for the $500 upfront without signing a contract and no commitments and see what they say.

As a Sales Manager you must remember that this person is being paid a commission on every account that his team of 30 sell therefore his job is to get you out there selling. If you sell only 6 systems a month and lets say the 29 others do only that as well, 6 sales each. Then he would make quite easily $20,000 that month alone from your sales. Perhaps more depending on his bonus structure. You can play around with the numbers all you want really. If 30 sold 12 each then he would make $35,000 + that month or more. I know the program so this is not anything misleading I assure you.

All this being said, I would caution you to fully understand why they make this sound so easy. They want you there to increase their overall bonus. Its that simple.

Hope this helps.

[WildWolf]

A company from the states came up to Calgary a few years ago selling security systems. It was the same basic program you are mentioning. If they could place their APX sign on the lawn, you get a security system for so much per month.

As you can see from this website, there are both good and bad comments made about the systems.
http://www.alarmsystemreviews.com/unbiased-apx-alarm-reviews.html

In talking to one of the young guys doing the sales, I was told they took it as a summer job to raise money for school. He was not making as much as he was led to believe, however he was making money. I know in my community there was 4 guys to cover the area. After they were all done, I have seen about 5 APX signs.

The sales are not easy, however if you are a good salesperson, you do have a good chance to make some money. If you consider 5 sales out of an approximate 2500 homes, the completion numbers are not very good.

Just my two cents worth. Hope it is of some assistance.

[GTS4tw]

This is not a "scam" in that it is illegal. It is however a very sketchy way to make money.

If you have no problem lying to people, especially the elderly, then it might be the job for you. It is basically the same as vacuum sales where you have to buy into the idea that you are pitching, or else you have to know it is scam and just want to be dishonest. Most of the time people who figure out that it is a scam and stay on become higher up in the organization, some tell themselves that it is honest work, but it isn't. Heres a couple of links:

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/erie-pa/T72IFTB1E189OK4O5

http://petworthnews.blogs.com/petworth_news/2008/08/beware-of-pinnacle-security.html

http://www.alarmsystemreviews.com/unbiased-pinnacle-security-reviews.html