Another Must See Movie "Who Killed the Electric Car" [Archive] - Beyond.ca - Car Forums

Xtrema

02-22-2007, 09:20 AM

Typical movie with political agenda. No better or worst than those 9/11 conspiracy movies.

BTW, why this movie is baseless:

Rumor: There were 5,000 people who wanted an EV1, but GM wouldn't let them buy it.

Fact: There were 5,000 people who expressed interest in an EV1, but when GM called them back and explained that the car cost $299-plus a month to lease, went between 60 and 80 miles on a full charge, and took between 45 minutes and 15 hours to re-charge, very few would commit to leasing one (not too surprising, is it?). The film likes to quote a figure of 29 miles as the average American's daily driving needs, but that is a national figure and the EV1 was only sold in California and Arizona, primarily in Los Angeles. Anyone wanna guess what the average L.A. resident's daily driving need is? I'm betting it's higher than that national average....

In the end it's the technology that killed the electric car. Batteries are too short range and doesn't recharge fast enough. And if you're out, you'll need a tow. Not practical at all.

Even if GM can keep all 5000 on the road, the liability and cost of maintenance will not justify it to be on the road.

01RedDX

02-22-2007, 09:38 AM

TKRIS

02-22-2007, 09:46 AM

I'm pretty sure that they're obligated to supply parts and service for a certain amount of time on any vehicle line. That would get expensive. They likely realized the idea couldn't takeover a large enough segment to continue production, so they thought it best to get right out of it so there was no chance of being forced to manufacturer obsolete parts and provide obsolete training for the next 15 years just to appease a few dozen hippies with a rosey-colored world view.

Kris

01RedDX

02-22-2007, 09:55 AM

Xtrema

02-22-2007, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by 01RedDX
I am still confused as to why GM would go through the effort of physically destroying all the remaining EV1's.

If it's taking up space, it's costing $$.

DayGlow

02-22-2007, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by Xtrema
Typical movie with political agenda. No better or worst than those 9/11 conspiracy movies.

BTW, why this movie is baseless:

In the end it's the technology that killed the electric car. Batteries are too short range and doesn't recharge fast enough. And if you're out, you'll need a tow. Not practical at all.

Even if GM can keep all 5000 on the road, the liability and cost of maintenance will not justify it to be on the road.

Also the batteries had to be replaced after 5 years or so for a huge cost. The technology just wasn't/isn't ready, no matter what the moonbats have to say.

01RedDX

02-22-2007, 10:23 AM

TKRIS

02-22-2007, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by 01RedDX

Sorry Kris but you're WRONG! GM leased EV1's with the provision that after the three-year leases were up, the cars were returned to the company. The demand for the EV1 was much higher than the actual amount of cars produced, btw.

I'm wrong about what?
GM had to destroy them. They weren't going to sell them to the public, because they'd be liable for parts, service, and other obligations. Why do that when the market sector isn't there?
What were they supposed to do? Leave them sit around collecting dust and taking up storage space for all enternity? Hell, the way car companies are run, I wouldn't be surprised if they wouldn't still be sitting on that lot if the greenies hadn't found them and started holding rallies.

The demand for EV1's was proported to be much higher. I can't remember what the numbers were, but I think they were around 60,000. Now, let's say that of those 60,000, half would have actually bought the car (and I'm being awfully generous with that number). That means that, in the entire nation, maybe 10 thousand of these things would sell each year. That's not a winning proposition when you consider that all the parts are exclusive to that car, all training is exclusive to that car, infrastructure, etc.

IMS, of the top 10 factors in buying a car, "environmentally friendly" is number 10.
10% of the population would even consider this car. maybe 5% of those would actually want to buy it.
Would you build a car and pay for infrastructure to appease less than 1% of the consumer market? If you would, I think your business sense is suspect.

Furthurmore: The car's were cheap to lease because they were experimental and GM was testing the market with a subsidised product. In actuality, batteries are fucking expensive. The closest thing right now to a production ready battery powered car is being tested by a Japanese company. The car costs $300,000. Of that, about $250,000 goes to the cost of batteries.

Of course, the cost would be substantially reduced with mass production.
However, answer me this: Do you drive a hybrid car?
Would you pay $40,000-$80,000 for a Saturn, if it was electric?

The elctric car "died" because it's not feasible, profitable, or efficient.

Kris

DayGlow

02-22-2007, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by 01RedDX

Again, GM only did 3 year leases with the EV1. There was no way to buy them out, and in California alone, the demand exceeded supply. This movie is not so much of a wild conspiracy theory, it does present some interesting questions.

So why 3 year lease? Maybe because the cost of maintaining them past that point was too much.

Does it make sense for a car manufacture to build a car with a 3 to 5 year life? They obviously were losing money on this trial and wasn't worth the expenses.

After that 3 year lease, GM couldn't turnover the cars and resell them. They would lose a ton of money.

Just jumped over to Toyota's site, for a Prius a 4 year lease (no option for 3) at the end of the lease, the buyout option is $15,327. This means that Toyota will get value from the lease-back when they sell it.

I doubt the 3 year lease from GM covered the full price of the vehicle, that means that the balance at the end was a loss. No matter how high the demand was, if GM is losing $15 to $20 grand a car, no demand would be fix that.

Toma

02-22-2007, 12:10 PM

Out of all you "experts"... who actually watched the movie?

So you think Chevron buying the rights and patents to the better battery technology and then burying it is a non issue? Bush and the government giving a $100,000 TAX credit to gas guzzlers, but $4000 for EV'is normal? You think GM purposely putting substandard batteries in the first batch of EV's was an accident?

What about Bush and the government putting $1.2 BILLION into an unworkable technolgy, or at least one that wont be ready for $10 to $20 years if ever, but CUTTING funding to the EV?

The oila and gas companies lobby group petitioning to have EV recharge stations shut down??

Yeah,all that is just "normal", and had nothing to do with the demise.

The cost of batteries in the EV was only $1005. Peanuts considering it did not need oil changes, filters, fuel filters, air filter, fan belts..... not bad for 5 years.... if that is your "expert" opinion in how battery technoloy is today.

But let me point out... back in the early 1900's Tesla outfitted an entire fleet of delivery trucks (from what i read, it may have bene UPS lol) to run on batteries, and around 1910, there were more battery operated cars then gas.... some of these cars in collectors vaults were driven into the 1940's on the same bettery's, and did not require battery replacement on working left overs till the 1990's

Toma

02-22-2007, 12:19 PM

Oh... and I had no idea Bush surround himself with ex oil executives, and GM execs...

CondaSleeza rice was an oil exec, his current wahtver advisor was an ex GM vice pres etc...

EVERYTING that comes out about this maggot is just enbelievable...

Toma

02-22-2007, 12:30 PM

Oh, and demand? LOL Tesla car company designed and was gonna produce 100 of its electric cars this year I believe.

The first 100 sold out in a week.

Thank god for hybrids right now.... they will hopefully push technology further, and costs down....

01RedDX

02-22-2007, 12:52 PM

Xtrema

02-22-2007, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by Toma
Oh, and demand? LOL Tesla car company designed and was gonna produce 100 of its electric cars this year I believe.

The first 100 sold out in a week.

Thank god for hybrids right now.... they will hopefully push technology further, and costs down....

Different market. Tesla is supposed to be a toy where you tow it out to a track, charge, discharge and tow back home.

The fact is, I'm not denying all the dirty politics to keep gas as our primary fuel. But all the alternative are so far proved to be more costly. If there's a home run solution, I'm sure consumer and manufacturers will embrace it - like the hybrid.

Toma

02-22-2007, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by 01RedDX
Forget it man, we're just moonbat hippies in a rosy-colored world, trying to take away people's gasoline-powered cars. :nut: :banghead:

Teslas electric roadster is faster than 95% of produciton cars...
0 to 60 in 4 seconds
250 mile range
1 cent per mile to operate...

01RedDX

02-22-2007, 01:22 PM

Toma

02-22-2007, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by Xtrema

Different market. Tesla is supposed to be a toy where you tow it out to a track, charge, discharge and tow back home.

The fact is, I'm not denying all the dirty politics to keep gas as our primary fuel. But all the alternative are so far proved to be more costly. If there's a home run solution, I'm sure consumer and manufacturers will embrace it - like the hybrid.

250 mile range, full charge in 3.5 hours, 100,000 mile + battery life? 135moh top speed....

It is expensive though, but they can only build 100 units a year right now... base price is $92,000

01RedDX

02-22-2007, 01:26 PM

codetrap

02-22-2007, 01:28 PM

Toma

02-22-2007, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by codetrap

250 Mile Range, then a 4 hour charge wait time. Guess you can't take it skiing eh?

Gee.. and it's only $92,000 on a base model

Fuck that.
Pretty good for a start and an independant trying to build 100 cars a year....

You can take it to any ski destination anywhere in Alberta, charge while skiing, and drive back :dunno: Fuck, 250 miles you would not have ot charge it.... now BC desitantions? well gee Sherlock... you got me there :drool:

If you wanna go skiing in a 2 seat roadster lol

Toma

02-22-2007, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by 01RedDX

But it's designed to compete against Lamborghini. What they should do is come up with a regular little hatchback... oh wait.
I drove a Gallardo for about 1.5 hours.... quite the rickity piece of shit....

And I am surprised they sold as many of the Teslas as they did... If I had the money, I would buy one,

I noticed oyu can do a basic DIY conversion for about $3000.... I'm thinking Rx7 or Miata to keep weight down and performance up....

clockworkboy3

02-22-2007, 01:46 PM

I thought this thread was gonna be about a real must see movie "Who Killed Rogeer Rabbit" Ohhh Jessica!!

Toma

02-22-2007, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by clockworkboy3
I thought this thread was gonna be about a real must see movie "Who Killed Rogeer Rabbit" Ohhh Jessica!!
Fawk off Newbie.... :poosie:

Toma

02-22-2007, 02:22 PM

My new car....

if I can afford it....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2002-Silver-Toyota-RAV-4-Electric-Vehicle-VERY-RARE_W0QQitemZ140089165006QQihZ004QQcategoryZ31872QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

TKRIS

02-22-2007, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by Toma
Out of all you "experts"... who actually watched the movie?

I did.
Twice. I've also seen most of the "Future Cars" series with Alan Alda. I'm certainly not saying that the whole idea is inherintly flawed. My point was that the business model, and vessel, and timing, and technology used in the EV1 makes is an inefficient, unrealistic, and expensive idea.

Originally posted by Toma

So you think Chevron buying the rights and patents to the better battery technology and then burying it is a non issue? Bush and the government giving a $100,000 TAX credit to gas guzzlers, but $4000 for EV'is normal? You think GM purposely putting substandard batteries in the first batch of EV's was an accident?

A lot of the Chevron/Battery stuff stinks to high heaven.
Of course the tax breaks are a fucking sham. They still are.
The EV1 was a experiment. An experiment that failed for a lot of the reasons I've already illustrated. Better batteries wouldn't have made it more widely accepted.

I'll re-ask my question: Do you drive a hybrid?
Would you pay $40,000-$80,000 for a Saturn if it was electric?

Originally posted by Toma

What about Bush and the government putting $1.2 BILLION into an unworkable technolgy, or at least one that wont be ready for $10 to $20 years if ever, but CUTTING funding to the EV?

The oila and gas companies lobby group petitioning to have EV recharge stations shut down??

Yeah,all that is just "normal", and had nothing to do with the demise.

What??? Government is run by lobbyists?!?!?!?! Say it ain't so!! Ahhh, my entire world view and faith in humanity is shatered.

Doesn't change the fact that not one fucking person on this board would have bought a fucking Saturn for $60,000.

Originally posted by Toma

The cost of batteries in the EV was only $1005. Peanuts considering it did not need oil changes, filters, fuel filters, air filter, fan belts..... not bad for 5 years.... if that is your "expert" opinion in how battery technoloy is today.

Yeah, that wouldn't be bad if the batteries cost $1005. However, despite what the video says: There's no way the batteries in that car only cost a grand unless they're made out of potatos and lemonade.
New batteries to power a golf cart cost $1200 for christ sake.

Originally posted by Toma

But let me point out... back in the early 1900's Tesla outfitted an entire fleet of delivery trucks (from what i read, it may have bene UPS lol) to run on batteries, and around 1910, there were more battery operated cars then gas.... some of these cars in collectors vaults were driven into the 1940's on the same bettery's, and did not require battery replacement on working left overs till the 1990's

Yeah, as car owners, we all know that batteries last for decades and almost never wear out. :rolleyes:

FWIW: Hybrid cars are a sham too. It's all just distraction.
Hybrid cars don't save you money, and they aren't any better for the economy.

Let's look at this example:
Over a two year period, if you were drinking 2 cups of coffee per day, would it be better for the environment for you to use styrofoam cups (discarding after every use), or continue to reuse a ceramic cup (washing after every use)?

If you guessed ceramic: you're wrong for a multitude of reasons.

There are some interesting questions regarding electric powered vehicles, but the EV1 was not the answer to these questions. It was a poorly planned, poorly executed product with almost no real market demand, no economic feasibility, and marginal environmental advantages.

There's always going to be a few thousand rich people to buy somethng like the Tesla to either:
a) be different
b) make themselves feel good about themselves
c) impress people

I'm not arguing that. However, with the marginal economic and environmental advantages this technology offers, the conversion will have to be on a massive scale. Moving a few thousand units out the door each year isn't going to do anything.
I completely agree that counting on hydrogen "fuel" to save us from oil dependency is rediculous, however, the EV is not the answer yet. First we need infrastructure. We need nuclear power to phase out coal plants. We need massive leaps in EV technology.
Remember that most people can only afford 1 car, so:
a) It has to cost less than $30,000 to be widely available.
b) It has to have quick recharge times, and long ranges.
c) It has to be a better car, not just a cleaner car.

Problem is:
a) Batteries are fucking expensive, and finicky envirnomental changes (colder climats will kill batteries faster, etc)
b)Generally speaking, quicker recharge times put more stress on the batteries and shorten their lifespans.

Kris

Toms-SC

02-22-2007, 02:53 PM

Just missing the part about the Jews, 9/11 and Iraq. Then this will be a complete Toma thread.

Toma

02-22-2007, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by Toms-SC
Just missing the part about the Jews, 9/11 and Iraq. Then this will be a complete Toma thread.
Well Tom... if you can't put together that if it weren't for America's hunger for oil... there would be no conflict in the mid east....

well.... :dunno:

Toms-SC

02-22-2007, 03:54 PM

Perfect...just something about the Jews now

Toma

02-22-2007, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by Toms-SC
Perfect...just something about the Jews now hmmmm
got nothin'.... :dunno:

TKRIS

02-22-2007, 04:15 PM

Here's something that might not actually suck.

http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/index.html

Cost is proposed to be much lower than the useless Tesla.
Much more buyer friendly and utilitarian.
At first glance, it appears to be a well designed, efficient vehicle that has the requirements I've previously addressed.
a) It's cheap (relatively speaking)
b) 10 minute recharge
c) Looks to offer at least as much comfort and conveniece as gasoline engines.

130 miles isn't too too far, but with a 10 minute recharge, range isn't as much of an issue.
IF, and that's a mighty big if, this thing actually preforms as it's advertised, I could see this selling quite well.

They're aiming for 6,000 units to be sold in California by 2008.

The electric car isn't dead. The EV1 is dead because it was the victim of pisspoor timing, shitty planning, and inefficient technology.

Kris

EDIT: Just did a little more digging: The 10 minute charge is only with a special charger and must be preformed offboard. That means infrastructure problems as stations would need to be equipped with power refill plugs. I've not been able to figure out what would be required to add this type of infrastructure, so it may require expensive dedicated stations (like hydrogen) or it might just be a charger that can be added to a regular gas station for a few thousand dollars. This will have a big impacts on how well this car is received.
Additionally, price point is going to be around $45,000 for either the truck or the SUV. Both will do 0-60 in under 10 seconds, and have 480lb.ft. of torque, so hauling and towing shouldn't be sacrificed over a gas engine.
Range is being extended to ~230miles.

It'll be interesting to see how this pans out for them.

Primer_Drift

02-22-2007, 04:40 PM

The jews run the oil corporations! They planned 9/11 because there was not enough jews in Iraq to take it over and sell their oil for more jew profit!... I heard from Toma that the Kurds were also involved in killing the electric car, something about them stealing land and causing trouble..

/sarcasm

Not everything in the world is a conspiracy, sometimes its just bad business in the short run to produce such a product. As demand for a better alternative grows, so to will the technology in this area.

Limiting a nations CO2 production would go a long way to pushing manufacturers into producing economically and commercially feasable EV's.

I find this odd though
From the EV1.org website..
"GM sold control of the worldwide patent rights for the NiMH batteries to Texaco, which then merged with Chevron. Chevron oil, the successor to Standard Oil of California, thus worked with GM to eliminate the batteries needed for plug-in EVs.."

If GM wanted to eliminate the batteries needed for plug-in EV's why would bother to sell the rights to texaco, have chevron buy texaco and then conspire with texaco to get rid of it? They could have just cancelled it on their own under pressure from Chevron. If GM really wanted to continue to use the batteries they could have changed the design, like using a LiPo battery (which has been around since 1980). Sounds a little conspiracy paranoia to me.

Hakkola

02-22-2007, 04:57 PM

Even if it is a conspiracy, you guys who enjoy living in Calgary and reaping the benefits of high wages should be happy. I don't think Canada is a leader in supplying batteries.

IMO, the EV1 sucked ass, and it tanked. However, if gas companies and governments have a hand in keeping the pumps moving out oil, then good for them, that's the power of the almighty dollar.

Toma

02-22-2007, 05:52 PM

Yep, saw the phoenix stuff....

pretty cool if they deliver on all their claims :thumbsup:

They are apparantly still in R&D, need crash testing, and have presold their entire expected run of 500 cars for this year... :thumbsup:

HAK.... Well, I could give less of a shit what industry is "hot". I could do equally well anywhere. Alberta is lucky as it is one of the few places where a grade 8 drop-out has equal chance of making $60k a year driving a truck, or $10 an hour flipping burgers... for now :drool:

finboy

02-22-2007, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by TKRIS
Here's something that might not actually suck.

http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/index.html

Cost is proposed to be much lower than the useless Tesla.
Much more buyer friendly and utilitarian.
At first glance, it appears to be a well designed, efficient vehicle that has the requirements I've previously addressed.
a) It's cheap (relatively speaking)
b) 10 minute recharge
c) Looks to offer at least as much comfort and conveniece as gasoline engines.

130 miles isn't too too far, but with a 10 minute recharge, range isn't as much of an issue.
IF, and that's a mighty big if, this thing actually preforms as it's advertised, I could see this selling quite well.

They're aiming for 6,000 units to be sold in California by 2008.

The electric car isn't dead. The EV1 is dead because it was the victim of pisspoor timing, shitty planning, and inefficient technology.

Kris

EDIT: Just did a little more digging: The 10 minute charge is only with a special charger and must be preformed offboard. That means infrastructure problems as stations would need to be equipped with power refill plugs. I've not been able to figure out what would be required to add this type of infrastructure, so it may require expensive dedicated stations (like hydrogen) or it might just be a charger that can be added to a regular gas station for a few thousand dollars. This will have a big impacts on how well this car is received.
Additionally, price point is going to be around $45,000 for either the truck or the SUV. Both will do 0-60 in under 10 seconds, and have 480lb.ft. of torque, so hauling and towing shouldn't be sacrificed over a gas engine.
Range is being extended to ~230miles.

It'll be interesting to see how this pans out for them.

design wise, it looks like an aztek, and we ALL know how that worked out

ICEBERG

02-22-2007, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by Toma
My new car....

if I can afford it....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2002-Silver-Toyota-RAV-4-Electric-Vehicle-VERY-RARE_W0QQitemZ140089165006QQihZ004QQcategoryZ31872QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Dude..Now, Thats the car i can see you driving around town.:thumbsup: :bigpimp:

EDIT" screw the Audi RS4, i am bidding on that one.;)

Khyron

02-24-2007, 01:38 AM

Screw you guys, I'm getting a Tron light cycle:

http://www.thecarlounge.com/news/publish/article_768.shtml

Contained, 250+ miles on a charge, seats 2 while protected from the elements, and costs 20G. Hopefully it comes out. :P

As for the movie, once I read that the producers intentionally ignored Toyota's EV efforts for no good reason, they lost all credibility with me. Even Toyota themselves said it was bullshit that GM took all the heat.

Khyron

finboy

02-24-2007, 02:27 AM

Originally posted by Khyron
Screw you guys, I'm getting a Tron light cycle:

http://www.thecarlounge.com/news/publish/article_768.shtml

Contained, 250+ miles on a charge, seats 2 while protected from the elements, and costs 20G. Hopefully it comes out. :P

As for the movie, once I read that the producers intentionally ignored Toyota's EV efforts for no good reason, they lost all credibility with me. Even Toyota themselves said it was bullshit that GM took all the heat.

Khyron

now thats fucking cool :thumbsup:

95EagleAWD

02-24-2007, 02:47 AM

Originally posted by codetrap

250 Mile Range, then a 4 hour charge wait time. Guess you can't take it skiing eh?

Gee.. and it's only $92,000 on a base model

Fuck that.

:werd:

Guess I couldn't take the car to visit the parents in Calgary for a day, or go to the lake in Ontario, since I'd rather drive from here to Winnipeg in one day. And Marmot is 350 kms from here, and doesn't have plugs in their parking lots. So you're fucked. Neither does Sunshine, now that I think about it.

92 grand? Thanks, but I'll take the 911 that still gets good fuel economy, might have AWD, and can have ski or bike rack on the roof.

As for the Gallardo being a rickedy POS... I'm not even gonna go there. Most solid Lambo I've ever been in.

DayGlow

02-24-2007, 03:11 AM

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD

As for the Gallardo being a rickedy POS... I'm not even gonna go there. Most solid Lambo I've ever been in.

Isn't that the major complaint about the Gallardo? It's really an Audi and has no Lambo soul since everything works and isn't tempermental?

For instance with the Gallardo Spyder, push a button and the roof comes up while the Murcielago is a true Lambo because it takes the test driver 25+ minutes to put it's roof on :D

Hakkola

02-24-2007, 03:16 PM

That ventureone car looks pretty cool actually, too bad it's probably a deathtrap, and you can't drive that thing in snow.

Palmiros

02-24-2007, 03:20 PM

Another movie that is a MUST SEE, is The Secret.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0846789/
Watch it!

01RedDX

02-24-2007, 03:24 PM

Toma

02-24-2007, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by 95EagleAWD

As for the Gallardo being a rickedy POS... I'm not even gonna go there. Most solid Lambo I've ever been in.
Well, you have more experince then me... I have only driven the Gallardo since it is the only lambo in my price range.... The 360 was nicer, though to tell the truth, for the money, I decided neither was worth it.... Considered a Ford GT instead, but they are more money, and they dont come up used as often.... now I haven't driven one, but I hear they are far superior to the Italian junk....

The only thing the Lambo has going for it...is .... well... its a Lambo and not a Ford lol

95EagleAWD

02-25-2007, 02:46 AM

Originally posted by Toma

Well, you have more experince then me... I have only driven the Gallardo since it is the only lambo in my price range.... The 360 was nicer, though to tell the truth, for the money, I decided neither was worth it.... Considered a Ford GT instead, but they are more money, and they dont come up used as often.... now I haven't driven one, but I hear they are far superior to the Italian junk....

The only thing the Lambo has going for it...is .... well... its a Lambo and not a Ford lol

I don't have that much experience... Both are way, way outside my price range. Just lucky to have a decently loaded uncle.

If you want a nice Ferrari, try and find a used F430. :thumbsup:

bspot

02-25-2007, 03:32 AM

Wow so much misinformation in here.

First of all, for those of you complaining about not being able to go skiing or drive to Ontairo, that problem has already been overcome:

http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/

There will be many more cars like this to come.

Next, how many kilometers do you drive per year?

"In real world use, some fleet Toyota RAV4 EVs, using NiMH batteries, have exceeded 100,000 miles (160,000 km) with little degradation in their daily range."

Thats 160,000 kms. If you're driving 20,000 a year, thats 8 years. This is on 90's battery technology which has come very far since then because of cellphones and laptops.

Phoenix motors advertises 250,000+ mile battery life. Thats 400,000 kms, which is TWENTY YEARS at 20,000 km/year. The thing will probably be a rusted out pile of shit by then anyways.

Battery life is a non issue.

Also interesting was charging times for these:

"Off board charger: 10 minutes to recharge to 95% capacity"

Its not a big deal to take a few 10 minute breaks on big highway trips.

The technology of these things is very very close to being good enough to compete seriously against gas powered cars.

Then we had someone saying that the overall environmental impact of Hybrids isn't that good. Depending on how your electricity is generated, they can be even better than electric cars. Both are definitely better than gas. The main advantage of a full electric car over a hybrid is you're going to spend about $4 to drive the same distance that costs you about $20 in gas for the hybrid, or about $40 in a normal car. (Rough numbers, but close enough to make the point).

*ahem*

http://members.shaw.ca/donomite/eleccar.JPG

As for cold weather performance, I believe its Ni-MH batteries that see very little cold weather performance decreases.

I think as more dedicated electric car companies come online, the big manufacturers will either be left in the dust or be forced to keep up. That is good news for everyone, as honestly, hippy or not, electric cars are the best low cost commuter alternative. Some people who can't afford to own and operate a car now will be able too because of this.

DayGlow

02-25-2007, 01:04 PM

I don't think anyone is against the electric car at all, the original post is about the movie and the replies mis-information in it, especially about the ev-1 which was not ready for primetime.

I personally am tired of grandiose conspiracy theories that are tagged onto everything these days. The simple answer is usually the right one and people need to do some research instead of jumping onto every bandwagon that comes along.

codetrap

02-25-2007, 01:47 PM

codetrap

02-25-2007, 01:57 PM

Redlyne_mr2

02-26-2007, 08:57 AM

I agree with tkris, the ev1 was poorly conceived, produced and marketed. Although there were many external political factors holding it back had it been a better car perhaps it would have survived longer than it did. Should a mega power lower toyota decide to push forward and produce a car such as this not even Bush and his greasy oil friends will be able to hold them back.

Toma

02-26-2007, 10:19 AM

Man... a guy I know is selling an Austin mini... that would be cool for a DIY conversion... lol :thumbsup:

riceeater

02-26-2007, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by Toma

Well, you have more experince then me... I have only driven the Gallardo since it is the only lambo in my price range.... The 360 was nicer, though to tell the truth, for the money, I decided neither was worth it.... Considered a Ford GT instead, but they are more money, and they dont come up used as often.... now I haven't driven one, but I hear they are far superior to the Italian junk....

The only thing the Lambo has going for it...is .... well... its a Lambo and not a Ford lol

yo man, why do you need such an expensive car?? wouldn't a cavalier work just as well at going from point a to point b?

It is vain to do with more what can be done with less. William of Occum, 1300-1349

Toma Chavez for prezident :zzz:

suddenly there's no need to save the environment, when it comes to your own sports car :rofl: :thumbsup: we always knew your messages were deep :bullshit:

ninjak84

02-26-2007, 11:56 AM

^^ LOL :rofl:

Nice burn

Toma

02-26-2007, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by ninjak84
^^ LOL :rofl:

Nice burn
Yes yes... you got me... :rolleyes: :rofl:

I am also hypcrite for heating my home with natural gas, and having a job that involves driving :poosie: :rolleyes:

riceeater

02-26-2007, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by Toma

Yes yes... you got me... :rolleyes: :rofl:

I am also hypcrite for heating my home with natural gas, and having a job that involves driving :poosie: :rolleyes:

actually, there's nothing wrong with heating your house or driving to work... it's just vain to keep your house really warm when you can wear another sweater, it's vain to do with a huge house when a small appartment would do, and it's also vain to drive anything other than a shitbucket to work... as long as it gets you there in a timely fashion, keeps you warm and dry, that's all you need, you dont need anything better... That's not me saying that, that's the ideologies you think so strongly about that you had to list them in your sig

i guess you like your communist ideals, but when it comes to implementing them, you're going about it Animal Farm stizzzziles :thumbsup:

01RedDX

02-26-2007, 11:26 PM

bspot

02-27-2007, 12:25 AM

Originally posted by codetrap

A trip like this will give you an estimated 50 equivalent miles per gallon using gasoline. Driving range between fill-ups could be as much as an outstanding 640 miles.(1)

1. Actual range may vary depending on driving habits and driving conditions. Fuel economy estimates based on GM simulation data.

Yeah.. not really overcome now is it. My Jetta is already getting performance pretty damn close to that, and for a helluva lot less money up front.

That is WORST CASE mileage for long trips only. Going to and from work most people would use ZERO gas.

:rolleyes:

And remember the other car that charges to 95% in TEN MINUTES? You can't wait 10 minutes ever 500km on a road trip? You never stop to piss or get gas as it is?

And you'd be wrong on that. Ni-MH batteries are the worst out of the technologies for cold weather performance. Don't beleive me? Take 2 walkie talkies to the skill hill on a cold day. One with alkalines, and one with Ni-MH, and see which one dies first. Or you could just google it.

Thats why I said "I think". Is it Lithium then? I can't remember off the top of my head, but I remember one type of batter sees very little cold temperature degredation.

codetrap

02-27-2007, 12:19 PM

ICEBERG

02-27-2007, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by riceeater

actually, there's nothing wrong with heating your house or driving to work... it's just vain to keep your house really warm when you can wear another sweater, it's vain to do with a huge house when a small appartment would do, and it's also vain to drive anything other than a shitbucket to work... as long as it gets you there in a timely fashion, keeps you warm and dry, that's all you need, you dont need anything better... That's not me saying that, that's the ideologies you think so strongly about that you had to list them in your sig

i guess you like your communist ideals, but when it comes to implementing them, you're going about it Animal Farm stizzzziles :thumbsup:

What are you complaining about? You think everyone should drive a Neon. :rolleyes: So i guess your ideas are not far off from Toma's. :thumbsup:

bspot

02-28-2007, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by codetrap

http://jalopnik.com/cars/alternative-energy/zap-lotus-team-up-on-electric-crossover-suv-232415.php
A combination of the lightweight aluminum vehicle architecture, a new efficient drive and advanced battery management systems is intended to enable a range of up to 350 miles between charges, with a rapid 10-minute recharging time. An auxiliary power unit is planned to support longer distance journeys.

Unfortunately, it's still vapour ware.. I can't actually buy one. I'd like to see how they charge the entire system in 10 minutes, there's nothing on thier site that clarifies it.

The truth is though, we know this stuff is going to be adopted in Europe WAY before here, and if you want to go skiing in Europe, you hop on a train. North America is built around cars. Definitely more challenges here.

gp36912

02-28-2007, 12:49 AM

you want a electric car, take a look at tesla.

o and btw all the figures you see are miles not kms. take the miles number and convert it to kms before you start complainging

finboy

02-28-2007, 06:27 AM

what does everyone think about the hydrogen concepts that GM has put out (and possibly others, i'm a bit behind on automotive news) in the past as an altertative to electric cars?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14848423

another interesting question arrises to...

As this is a site based off of those who like to make their cars faster, what technology is there to improve on the performance of the electric or other alternative fueled vehicles? obviously there is the tesla (damn sexy car), but what does one do if they want to make it faster, increase range, etc.? Will the aftermarket be able to offer upgrades for reasonably cheap? Is anyone going to miss the sound of a gasoline motor? dead silence of the motor might be an advantage for some, but i like how car's sound, thats part of the appeal (i can't wait to see the first "can i put a BOV on my electric car" thread to pop up on here :rofl: ).

I also think the question of what happens if there is a power outage has to be asked, the states have had brown outs before, and if people started converting to electric cars, what effect might it have on a power supply that is already having issues?

btw...
http://www.fastcursor.com/vehicles/tesla-electric-roadster-pictures.asp

link to video of the tesla, and for the ariel atom fans, there is an electric one pictured on that site

and another link...
http://www.acpropulsion.com/vehicles/all.htm

Toma

02-28-2007, 09:38 AM

Adam... fuel cell stuff is a long way away, if ever.... Takes way more energy to make hydrogen then you get out of it....

To do up your electric is not that hard... upgrade to a bigger motor, more battery capacity, decrease resistance, better controllers....

There are guys runnin 10 second quarter miles with light electrics, or 12's with heavier ones....

finboy

02-28-2007, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by Toma
Adam... fuel cell stuff is a long way away, if ever.... Takes way more energy to make hydrogen then you get out of it....

To do up your electric is not that hard... upgrade to a bigger motor, more battery capacity, decrease resistance, better controllers....

There are guys runnin 10 second quarter miles with light electrics, or 12's with heavier ones....

quite interesting, the torque curve also would make for great street use, but i kind of wonder, once you start getting into bigger power numbers, how you would modulate power output at low speed levels to avoid traction issues

gp36912

02-28-2007, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Toma
Adam... fuel cell stuff is a long way away, if ever.... Takes way more energy to make hydrogen then you get out of it....

not only that but its not a feasible power source. the reason being is that hydrogen is a very small molecule, as my materials teacher put it "it'd leak like a bastard"

riceeater

02-28-2007, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by ICEBERG

What are you complaining about? You think everyone should drive a Neon. :rolleyes: So i guess your ideas are not far off from Toma's. :thumbsup:

:dunno: ok?

ICEBERG

02-28-2007, 03:10 PM

Did you guy's ever watched this?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7352118104883452737

ninjak84

02-28-2007, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by ICEBERG
Did you guy's ever watched this?

ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US
http://business2.blogs.com/business2blog/images/all_your_base.jpg
Stop backing up Toma like you're his boyfriend. You lose credibility.
Unless you really are his boyfriend, and you actually do enjoy backing him up.

ICEBERG

02-28-2007, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by ninjak84

Stop backing up Toma like you're his boyfriend. You lose credibility.
Unless you really are his boyfriend, and you actually do enjoy backing him up.

Oh, heaven forbid someone lose their credibility on a chat group. The
best part about your comment is that you couldn't just say Toma and you
have no credibility, you had to add a perverted post as if toma and i where boyfriends while you ponder if your worthy enough to join in. Please, give me a break.

01RedDX

02-28-2007, 10:40 PM

Aging_Redneck

02-28-2007, 11:34 PM

I have a book called 'build your own electric vehicle' It had alot of good resources for everything from choice of battery to motor selection.

One of the chapters was a sample project for a Ford Ranger conversion. Every detail was included. Trucks look like a simple project because you don't have to screw around with the battery placement, just put them all in the truck box.

I have an older Ranger sitting in moth balls, but it has an automatic tranny. I wonder if a standard tranny would bolt in? (electric motors and auto trannies don't work well together- at least not with home conversions)

Toma

02-28-2007, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by Aging_Redneck
I have a book called 'build your own electric vehicle' It had alot of good resources for everything from choice of battery to motor selection.

One of the chapters was a sample project for a Ford Ranger conversion. Every detail was included. Trucks look like a simple project because you don't have to screw around with the battery placement, just put them all in the truck box.

I have an older Ranger sitting in moth balls, but it has an automatic tranny. I wonder if a standard tranny would bolt in? (electric motors and auto trannies don't work well together- at least not with home conversions)
That's what I read about autos... but I dons see why.

You can get rid of the torque converter, and run a direct drive like some of the circle track guys.... :dunno: Most the power loss in an auto IS the converter, so in direct drive, the auto will be fairly efficient....

I would prefer... if possible... to run no tranny. Put a minimum 100 lb ft electric motor in it... and presto...less weight and more efficient

Aging_Redneck

02-28-2007, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by Toma

That's what I read about autos... but I dons see why.

You can get rid of the torque converter, and run a direct drive like some of the circle track guys.... :dunno: Most the power loss in an auto IS the converter, so in direct drive, the auto will be fairly efficient....

I would prefer... if possible... to run no tranny. Put a minimum 100 lb ft electric motor in it... and presto...less weight and more efficient

just a wild idea, mount the motor and batteries in the truck box, tilt the rear diff upwards and connect it to the motor. ( and alot of other details that I left out of course)

Edit: shit that wouldn't work unless you consider how the suspension action would work, right?

Toma

03-01-2007, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by Aging_Redneck

just a wild idea, mount the motor and batteries in the truck box, tilt the rear diff upwards and connect it to the motor. ( and alot of other details that I left out of course)

Edit: shit that wouldn't work unless you consider how the suspension action would work, right?

Yep... you would still have to run some sort of flex coupling, but it would seem easier mounting the motor where the tranny was and still using a slip yoke arrangement and a driveshaft...

Aging_Redneck

03-01-2007, 12:35 AM

riceeater

03-01-2007, 12:40 AM

i think that the only reason hybrids are gaining any ground is because our oil overlords are cashing in so big on the current high price of oil that their getting sloppy... back me up Toma, whip up some websites for me man

riceeater

03-01-2007, 12:43 AM

why not just jump on the E85 bandwagon then? 110 pump octane, subsidies to our farmers, CO2 sucking plants... i'm sure we can work out the fertilizer issue, since we're not going for quality crops, just quantity... i like the E85 idea a lot. what about you guys?

Aging_Redneck

03-01-2007, 01:01 AM

I don't know why a person need to create an efficient electric car. As I understand it, I could drive a full sized electric vehicle to work and back for about 30 cents in electricity.

I know batteries might average out to be $1500 per year, but isn't that alot like my fuel bill for the year?

riceeater

03-01-2007, 01:06 AM

pfff... if you ask some of the honda people here, they only fill up twice between fillups :love: :thumbsup:

finboy

03-01-2007, 01:34 AM

Originally posted by Toma

Yep... you would still have to run some sort of flex coupling, but it would seem easier mounting the motor where the tranny was and still using a slip yoke arrangement and a driveshaft...

so you thinking of actually doing an electric project? :nut:

inspiration for you:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MG-T-Series-Electric-52-MG-TD-Kit-Car_W0QQitemZ200083016339QQihZ010QQcategoryZ31858QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The Cosworth

06-04-2008, 08:52 PM

sorry to bump an old thread, just finished watching this.

Amazing movie. I dont understand why they arrested all those people and crushed all the EV1's.

Guess I am buying a tesla.

mark4091

06-04-2008, 09:47 PM

I'm just waiting for the technology to get better, I want 500 km a charge with possible reserve bateries for long road trips.

And better looking cars.

As far as I see it they're too expensive right now for me to bother, I can drive a big V8 and it would still be a ton cheaper then some of these cars.

Toma

06-05-2008, 09:32 AM

The Montreal company little compacts are cheap... what $12k? Rick Mercer tested one... great for around town...

Illegal in Alberta :rofl:

TKRIS

06-05-2008, 09:51 AM

Those ZENN cars suck.
Shitty old tech batteries, wicked expensive for what you get, no top speed, no range.

They're nothing more than a souped up golf cart.
And they're illegal in all of Canada. It's not just an Albertan thing.

Start by transitioning to solar and nuclear energy, then give me an electric car for $10k that will go 130km/h and has a range of 100km, then we'll talk.
The first step is efficient energy production, electric cars en-mass can't come until that's done.

The Cosworth

06-05-2008, 10:46 AM

tesla FTW!

malbadon

06-05-2008, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by TKRIS
Those ZENN cars suck.
Shitty old tech batteries, wicked expensive for what you get, no top speed, no range.

They're nothing more than a souped up golf cart.
And they're illegal in all of Canada. It's not just an Albertan thing.

Start by transitioning to solar and nuclear energy, then give me an electric car for $10k that will go 130km/h and has a range of 100km, then we'll talk.
The first step is efficient energy production, electric cars en-mass can't come until that's done.

The ZENN is perfect for what it's designed for, an inner-city urban vehicle, for someone who lives in the downtown and only needs it to get from one end to the other. It's not even remotely designed for a city like Calgary where Costco is 10 km away down the Deerfoot, and work is 45 minutes away on the other side of the city. So, yes, the ZENN sucks for Calgary, but it has a market, it just ain't here.

TKRIS

06-05-2008, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by malbadon

The ZENN is perfect for what it's designed for, an inner-city urban vehicle, for someone who lives in the downtown and only needs it to get from one end to the other. It's not even remotely designed for a city like Calgary where Costco is 10 km away down the Deerfoot, and work is 45 minutes away on the other side of the city. So, yes, the ZENN sucks for Calgary, but it has a market, it just ain't here.

I know what it's designed for. It's still a POS.
Like I said before, it's a souped up golf cart. That's awesome if you only have to go 15 blocks, or if you live in a gated community in Boca, but it's not a $12,000 car, and it's market niche is so small that it's completely obsolete. I can buy a Hyundai cheaper, it'll cost me marginally more to operate (thanks, in part, to shitty battery technology) and offers me infinitly more flexibility and potential.
We have the technology to make actual electric cars. Why would anyone buy this piece of shit that's marginally better than a bicycle or a Power Wheels?