Chiropractor Opinions?

[Mckenzie]

Considering that Chiro is endorsed by Alberta Health Care and paid for and that physio is not should tell you what doctors are endorsing.

I have been in 3 car accidents, 7 years of hard labour jobs and 4 years of studying at university....this has all lead to severe chronic back pain for me. I have been to massage, accu-puncture, physio and chiro numerous times. In all honesty, the best treatment I have experienced has been from a chiropractor. They are fully certified medical doctors that are well trained in physiology and anatomy.

IMO...

Chiro has done me well and I only go every month or so. I dont see why you think it is so bad if you have never tried? It is based on body science and well respected. When I first started going I went twice a week for 4 weeks then once a week for four weeks. After that, my back was soooo much better. I now go about once every month for a tune up and its only $15 ($10 for students). Compare that to $60 per visit to physio/massage twice a week.

Physio was more of a pain in the butt than anything. You show up for up to two hours and all they do is stuff you can do at the gym yourself (minus the electro stim). On top of that, it is expensive and I did not really experience any releif.

Massage and Accupuncture were great for temporary releif of muscle pain but did nothing about the joints that were out of alignment.

As far as inversion tables go, recent studies have proved that they are not effective (I found them to cause more pain for me).

Check out Dr. Sawa if you want a really great chiro that will tell you things about your body that would surprise you.

PM me if you want his contact number.

Back pain sucks but is manageable....I've had a lot of experience in that category lol...

[GTS Jeff]

I used to get lower back pain, it came from hunching over studying for long periods of time. Once I stopped doing that and once I started going to the gym and hitting a lot of the basic core exercises, it went away. My back never hurts now, it's great.

[teggypimp95]

I use to have alot of back and neck pain from a few down hill bike wipe outs. I went to the chiropractor 2-3times a week at first, now i just go when ever i feel sore. It has worked so well. My back feels totally stronger and better. I go for an adjustment, or active release therapy, or graston. They have even done electrical therapy if i have had a sore shoulder or what ever. Works wounders man.

Also do not sleep on your tummy. It is the #1 cause for lower back pain :)

[eb0i]

Originally posted by Mckenzie
In all honesty, the best treatment I have experienced has been from a chiropractor. They are fully certified medical doctors that are well trained in physiology and anatomy.


I didn't think they are medical doctors...

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by Mckenzie
Considering that Chiro is endorsed by Alberta Health Care and paid for and that physio is not should tell you what doctors are endorsing.

I have been in 3 car accidents, 7 years of hard labour jobs and 4 years of studying at university....this has all lead to severe chronic back pain for me. I have been to massage, accu-puncture, physio and chiro numerous times. In all honesty, the best treatment I have experienced has been from a chiropractor. They are fully certified medical doctors that are well trained in physiology and anatomy.

IMO...

Chiro has done me well and I only go every month or so. I dont see why you think it is so bad if you have never tried? It is based on body science and well respected. When I first started going I went twice a week for 4 weeks then once a week for four weeks. After that, my back was soooo much better. I now go about once every month for a tune up and its only $15 ($10 for students). Compare that to $60 per visit to physio/massage twice a week.

Physio was more of a pain in the butt than anything. You show up for up to two hours and all they do is stuff you can do at the gym yourself (minus the electro stim). On top of that, it is expensive and I did not really experience any releif.

Massage and Accupuncture were great for temporary releif of muscle pain but did nothing about the joints that were out of alignment.

As far as inversion tables go, recent studies have proved that they are not effective (I found them to cause more pain for me).

Check out Dr. Sawa if you want a really great chiro that will tell you things about your body that would surprise you.

PM me if you want his contact number.

Back pain sucks but is manageable....I've had a lot of experience in that category lol... http://www.chirobase.org/

Read and weep.

[benyl]

Originally posted by eb0i


I didn't think they are medical doctors...

They aren't. And that is why I will never go to one.

What is worse than a doctor that came last in his med school class? One that couldn't even get into med school.

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by eb0i


I didn't think they are medical doctors...

They most certainly are not medical doctors. Sorry to burst your bubble, but anyone actively seeking chiropractic help should approach it carefully.

Yes, i've been to a chiropractor, and they do provide relief with their massager's and stimulation. But the entire industry rests upon a theory that is not scientifically tested nor accepted within the medical profession. In fact, reading about their "nerve energy" and "subluxations" is just plain absurd!

There's a reason that chiropractors cannot issue prescriptions and have a stash FULL of pillows, herbs, and natural ingredients to help improve sales and confuse patients. After reading about their practices, I experienced the exact same routine once I walked in. I was seated, watched an hour-long video about how great Chiro is, x-rayed, told my neck and back were extremely out of alignment, and put on a ridiculous 2 year routine where I had to go there twice a month and take calcium and natural vitamin pills, while sleeping on the $85 pillow he wanted to sell me. All I had to do was pay the fee every 2 weeks and i'd be back to perfect in 2 years! What a joke.

I'm 100% positive that many people have received adequate care in the hands of a chiropractor, but again, approach the practice carefully. The industry is not widely accepted, and several dozen Chiropractic schools have shut their doors in the past decades because of a serious decline in these practices.

[Mckenzie]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
http://www.chirobase.org/

Read and weep.

Great objective website...thanks tips! I guess based on this information I should dispute the success that I have had with a chiropractor....it must be all in my head. I am weeping now. :rofl: :rofl:



Originally posted by benyl


They aren't. And that is why I will never go to one.

What is worse than a doctor that came last in his med school class? One that couldn't even get into med school.

Where did you get these facts from?

Great generalization though...

:rolleyes:

[Mckenzie]

Originally posted by Weapon_R


I'm 100% positive that many people have received adequate care in the hands of a chiropractor, but again, approach the practice carefully. The industry is not widely accepted, and several dozen Chiropractic schools have shut their doors in the past decades because of a serious decline in these practices.

According to who is it not widely recognized? You?

Why would alberta health care pay for it if it was not?

And if physio is so great, why did it get taken from the list of subsidized services by the alberta government?

Bottom line is that the guy asked for advice on his back pain. I have dealt with this issue for almost 7 years and have tried everything out there with the most success coming from chiro and excercise and the least from physio. My success with that is why I am endorsing it....i would have no other reason to otherwise. Living with back pain is miserable and there are many remedies for it...I just suggested something from personal experience and would not attack the profession without personal experience.

[lint]

PBS documentary on chiropractics

http://www.pbs.org/saf/1210/video/watchonline.htm

3rd one down, "Adjusting the Joints"

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by Mckenzie


Great objective website...thanks tips! I guess based on this information I should dispute the success that I have had with a chiropractor....it must be all in my head. I am weeping now. :rofl: :rofl:


Did you read the part about how chiro was invented in the 1800s by some "layman" that worked at a grocery store and had no medical knowledge whatsoever? The same dude that believed in healing with magnets?

Anyway, I'm glad that chiro works for you; I'm not trying to take that away from you. But I'm definitely doing my part to help out other people by providing information such as the above.

Also, the government isn't exactly an altruistic organisation; the actual health benefits of chiro isn't the only thing that affects their endorsement. There are factors like umm....getting their pants sued off them by the chiro association if they don't endorse them. Or uhh....intense public backlash from the uneducated masses...aka political pressure. But to each his own.

[eb0i]

Originally posted by benyl


They aren't. And that is why I will never go to one.

What is worse than a doctor that came last in his med school class? One that couldn't even get into med school.



Originally posted by Weapon_R


They most certainly are not medical doctors.




You know I was just really surprised by the OP who said they are "certified medical doctors" when they never wrote the MCATs or went to medical school. As far as I know all they need is a certificate to practice it. That's why it sorta irks me that Chiropractors are referred to as doctor so and so when all the attained was a certificate.

[beecue]

I went to a chiropractor for 13 months and it didn't help me at all ... I was still having the same pain as when I started ... when I started going ... the chiropractor told me that it would only take about 12 weeks to get adjusted ... then he kept telling me to come back .. that lasted a long time... so I stopped going ... I started to work out again and haven't had any pain since.

[codetrap]

.

[Mckenzie]

Originally posted by ~Leah~
I figure if you keep correct posture, exercise regularly and strengthen your core, and have the correct mattress, you should be fine.

Mckenzie, you call your experience with the chiro "success", but the fact that you have to go every month for a "tune up" doesn't sound like much success to me. I think it's just like cracking your knuckles in a way. They get all this excess fluid in the joints, which causes discomfort if you don't continue to crack and realign the joints like a lot of people do with their knuckles. IMO, all it does is set you up to be one helluva sore elderly citizen who is going to have to be in assisted living at an earlier age because your body is too messed up to move and function on its own.

Well I guess when you go from having chronic pain all day to having very little pain within 48 hours, yeah I would call that a success....would you call that a failure? Have you ever dealt with chronic pain before so bad that you've had to quit your job or drastically change your lifestyle to accomodate? I'm sure you know that there are links between chronic pain and depression, so wouldnt you think that people who are able to alleviate both the physical and psychological effects of pain through treatment would view it as a success?

Just because I go once every 4-6 weeks doesnt mean it does not work.

What is the difference between going there 7 or 8 times a year and going to physio twice a week for two months and then having to do stretches and core excercises 3 times a week to keep things working? You make it sound like addressing chronic pain is quick fix...anyone who has had an injury with chronic pain knows that is plain wrong...and you should know that being a personal trainer.

Besides, the physiotherapist I went to told me one of the main causes of reoccuring injuries is poor patient compliance post treatment...you know when they want you to do 100 reps of this and 5 mins of that everyday etc. What does that tell you? People leave physio and dont do anything, thinking they are fixed when in fact they need to maintain a lifestyle that caters to their injury to prevent further paindown the road and they dont.

I dont really see the difference IMO.

:dunno:

[codetrap]

.

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by codetrap
I read through a lot of Chirobase.org, and it seems that they're more focused on pointing out the bad apples. The same could easily be done for MD's, physiotherapists and dentists.

Really though, it's a site run by a couple of guys, with no peer review, and no accreditation. What's to stop me from creating my own site just like it? Nothing, and mine would have the same credibility.

Education for a Chiropractor..
It takes seven years of university level training to become a chiropractor. Three years of university courses are required prior to being accepted to the four academic year accredited college of chiropractic program. A chiropractic student is required to take board exams, both written and practical, before being eligible for a license to practice in Canada.

Education for a Phsyiotherapist
3Years for a Bachelor of Science in Physiotherapy.

Education for a Regular Doctor
"In order to become a physician, you must complete a three or four year Medical Doctor (MD) degree program at an accredited university, followed by family medicine or specialty post-graduate training."

So..in short, do you really think that MD's or Physiotherapists have oh so much more training before they're actually on the job and seeing patients? Guess again. Please, if you want to talk about skewing the facts, go reread your own post.

1. No accreditation? The one guy is an MD in Psychiatry, not psychology, and the fact that you don't know the difference speaks volumes about your level of comprehension in this subject. A Doctor of Psychology holds a PhD and has no medical training. An MD, Psychiatry is obtained by first becoming an MD in medical school and then specializing in psychiatry. The other author is a former chiropractor that is openly defaming his own so-called 'profession.'

2. You make it sound like chiropractors undergo more schooling than MDs. In fact, the majority of med students enter into med school with undergrad degrees (4+ years,) some MSc.s and there are even a couple this year's class with PHds. The MD program is typically 4 years, though some schools offer a 3 year program if there are no summers offered, so it's basically 4 years anyway. Then after that, most residencies are 2+ years. That's well over 10 years spent learning before you can become a self practicing physician.

3. They plainly state in words that chiropractors are frauds. Maybe you missed that part:


Why focus on chiropractors? Why don't you
talk about the serious problems in medicine?
One has nothing to do with the other. Medicine's shortcomings do not justify chiropractic quackery.

Doesn't every profession have its rotten apples?
Yes, but we believe the percentage of chiropractors engaged in dubious practices is very high—much higher than it is in medicine and dentistry, for example. Chiropractors are the only professionals we know that promote courses and books on how to mislead people.

...quackery, mislead people...hmmm sounds like fraud to me. Then again, you might want to pull out your thesaurus to make sure.

4. Yes, anyone could make a site like this for medicine and dentistry, but the reason they haven't, at least not with the thoroughness and backed by the same credentials is because they don't need to! Physicians aren't scam artists!

[Mckenzie]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
Please, if you want to talk about skewing the facts, go reread your own post.

1. No accreditation? The one guy is an MD in Psychiatry, not psychology, and the fact that you don't know the difference speaks volumes about your level of comprehension in this subject. A Doctor of Psychology holds a PhD and has no medical training. An MD, Psychiatry is obtained by first becoming an MD in medical school and then specializing in psychiatry. The other author is a former chiropractor that is openly defaming his own so-called 'profession.'

2. You make it sound like chiropractors undergo more schooling than MDs. In fact, the majority of med students enter into med school with undergrad degrees (4+ years,) some MSc.s and there are even a couple this year's class with PHds. The MD program is typically 4 years, though some schools offer a 3 year program if there are no summers offered, so it's basically 4 years anyway. Then after that, most residencies are 2+ years. That's well over 10 years spent learning before you can become a self practicing physician.

3. They plainly state in words that chiropractors are frauds. Maybe you missed that part:



...quackery, mislead people...hmmm sounds like fraud to me. Then again, you might want to pull out your thesaurus to make sure.

4. Yes, anyone could make a site like this for medicine and dentistry, but the reason they haven't, at least not with the thoroughness and backed by the same credentials is because they don't need to! Physicians aren't scam artists!

I think the point is that all of the above undergo specialized training to practice in their fields whether MD or PhD, etc.

I made an incorrect comment about them being medical doctors and I apologize for that. However, the chiropractic office I go to, both of them are doctors. Whether a PhD or MD, I can respect that for devotion and specialization. I'm not sure who is able to practice as a chiropractor but I am guessing that Alberta health care will not pay for Bobs chiropractic clinic, nor am I advising go there. Its always best to do some due dilligence on any practitioner.

I have had some pretty poor experiences with my back when dealing with MDs, so that goes to say that every profession (law, medicine, accounting, etc.) has their bad apples (I had one doctor accuse me of faking my injury to get time off of work....eat a bag of dicks buddy).

I think 7 years is a lot of training for a chiropractor as is 8-9 for an MD. To say one knows more than the other or is is better is like saying my dad can beat up your dad....hard to say right?

And to say physicians are not scam artists, you may want to look south to see what a private health care system will do to doctors (read: corruption and greed). ;) As I said, all professions have their bad apples.

[xrayvsn]

Originally posted by codetrap
IEducation for a Chiropractor..
It takes seven years of university level training to become a chiropractor. Three years of university courses are required prior to being accepted to the four academic year accredited college of chiropractic program. A chiropractic student is required to take board exams, both written and practical, before being eligible for a license to practice in Canada.

Education for a Phsyiotherapist
3Years for a Bachelor of Science in Physiotherapy.

Education for a Regular Doctor
"In order to become a physician, you must complete a three or four year Medical Doctor (MD) degree program at an accredited university, followed by family medicine or specialty post-graduate training"

So..in short, do you really think that MD's or Physiotherapists have oh so much more training before they're actually on the job and seeing patients? Guess again.

Physiotherapy is now an after degree program, meaning that physiotherapists need 8 years of University level education before they can practice.

An MD is not achieved after 3 or 4 years of University training, more like 7 or 8. Typically this means 4 years (or more) in a Bachelor's degree followed by medical school. An MD alone does not mean they get to go out and open a practice. All physicians and surgeons need to complete a residency to qualify to write the Royal College exams. Family medicine residency is 2 years, but almost everything else is 5 years.

I personally have been in training for 13 years since graduating high school. That is 5 years more than a chiropractor, and while that may not seem like a lot to you, it sure felt like a long time for me!

[codetrap]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
The one guy is an MD in Psychiatry, not psychology, and the fact that you don't know the difference speaks volumes about your level of comprehension in this subject.

It's not about not knowing the difference, it's about merely thinking one word and typing another. I also didn't say the guy was not accredited, but the site wasn't endorsed by anything other than a few other fringe sites.

The information about the physiotherapists was incorrect. I misinterpreted the difference between someone holding a B.SC(PT) and someone with an MPT.


GTS, here ya go.. read for yourself the requirements.

Chiropractor:
http://science.education.nih.gov/LifeWorks.nsf/Alphabetical+List/Chiropractor?OpenDocument&ShowTab=3&

Family and General Practice
http://science.education.nih.gov/LifeWorks.nsf/Alphabetical+List/Family+and+General+Physician?OpenDocument&ShowTab=3&

Oh, and during thier internship, they ARE working on people..

My simple point was that they're all highly trained. I'm sorry you missed that due to my being unclear about it.


Quackery etc.....4. Yes, anyone could make a site like this for medicine and dentistry, but the reason they haven't, at least not with the thoroughness and backed by the same credentials is because they don't need to! Physicians aren't scam artists!

No? They're HUMAN beings. They're not all seeing, all knowing. They make the same mistakes, they have the same issues. There's absolutely nothing preventing that doctor from going off on his own private vendetta against the profesion of chiropracty. Also, having a MD, or a PhD behind his name doesn't mean shit, when nobody else in the medical world seems to agree with him. I don't see one University, or Research facility linking into his site. I don't see any peer review that says "Yes, the Dean of the IofA Medical Sciences has reviewed this and agrees"

If you want to take a single Psychiatrist at his word about Chiropractors, along with a single chiropractor, then fine, I can't stop you. Me, I prefer to go along with the majority on this one and agree with my own personal experience.

Oh, and I quote from Chirobase.org's own Mission Statement, since you don't seem to be able to read sometimes yourself..


Aren't you being unfair to chiropractors who practice ethically and competently?

One of our goals is to help consumers evaluate individual chiropractors. To do this, we have posted guidelines describing both proper and improper care. We strongly support science-based chiropractic care. Chiropractors who believe our guidelines are valid can list their names in our referral directory so that prospective patients seeking such care can locate them. We have also posted a feature article describing what a rational chiropractor can do for people.

[A|pine]

Chiropractors go through 3-4 years to get their Bachelor of Science Degree from any University in Canada, then they head out east to Toronto to complete another 3-4 years.

Mind you, Chiropractors offer treatment. Treatment is not a cure.

There are other treatments as GTS jeff stated. He went and worked out at a gym. I'm pretty sure gym passes aren't free (unless you're with the university or mrc).

You could always go for steroid injections, I'm sure that will run up a hefty cost too. If you're in chronic pain I don't see the harm in trying something new.

[xrayvsn]

Originally posted by A|pine
You could always go for steroid injections, I'm sure that will run up a hefty cost too. If you're in chronic pain I don't see the harm in trying something new.

It doesn't cost the individual anything, since these are covered by the provincial health plans.

[00redLUDE]

Originally posted by urban.one

One funny thing is that both these guys always make it a point that they are "Dr." so and so. its pretty funny. I have friends who are "real " doctors and they rarely make a point of being called "doctor".


You make a EXCELLENT point here because I find the same thing! I know a few chiro that ALWAYS call themselves 'Dr' and I know a great deal of medical doctors that ALWAYS say they are 'John Doe' but NEVER that they are 'Dr. John Doe' It's funny because it's true. :rofl: :rofl:

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by codetrap


It's not about not knowing the difference, it's about merely thinking one word and typing another. I also didn't say the guy was not accredited, but the site wasn't endorsed by anything other than a few other fringe sites.

The information about the physiotherapists was incorrect. I misinterpreted the difference between someone holding a B.SC(PT) and someone with an MPT.


GTS, here ya go.. read for yourself the requirements.

Chiropractor:
http://science.education.nih.gov/LifeWorks.nsf/Alphabetical+List/Chiropractor?OpenDocument&ShowTab=3&

Family and General Practice
http://science.education.nih.gov/LifeWorks.nsf/Alphabetical+List/Family+and+General+Physician?OpenDocument&ShowTab=3&

Oh, and during thier internship, they ARE working on people..

My simple point was that they're all highly trained. I'm sorry you missed that due to my being unclear about it.



No? They're HUMAN beings. They're not all seeing, all knowing. They make the same mistakes, they have the same issues. There's absolutely nothing preventing that doctor from going off on his own private vendetta against the profesion of chiropracty. Also, having a MD, or a PhD behind his name doesn't mean shit, when nobody else in the medical world seems to agree with him. I don't see one University, or Research facility linking into his site. I don't see any peer review that says "Yes, the Dean of the IofA Medical Sciences has reviewed this and agrees"

If you want to take a single Psychiatrist at his word about Chiropractors, along with a single chiropractor, then fine, I can't stop you. Me, I prefer to go along with the majority on this one and agree with my own personal experience.

Oh, and I quote from Chirobase.org's own Mission Statement, since you don't seem to be able to read sometimes yourself..



Holy shit, I've discredited you thoroughly already, and yet you come back for more? Ok, here we go again:

1. You used an American site to quote the educational requirements. We're in Canada, bitch. And don't you think I would probably be more familiar about entrance requirements than you anyway? I can tell you about real people from the U of A's med classes...while you find the wrong sites to quote off Google.

2. I have a tough time accepting your "point" in light of all your glaring errors, some of which I have already pointed out. Again, you have been discredited - which means no one takes your "point" seriously.

3. You think nobody else in the medical world agrees with the guys at chirobase? Hmmm well, I can see a couple posting in this thread...and if you weren't so blinded by your biases, you would see that the majority in this thread are against chiro. Go ahead and tally up the posts.

4. "We strongly support science-based chiropractic care" They have that in there for LEGAL PROTECTION. Tough concept, I know, but you'll get it one day. Anyway, the very notion of science based chiro is paradoxical. Try proving me wrong, try finding me a single chiropractic scientific journal that is peer-reviewed by scientists outside of the chiropractic field. You won't, because you can't, because they don't exist. One of the tenets of science is open peer-review, which the chiro field does not engage in.

Originally posted by 00redLUDE

I know a few chiro that ALWAYS call themselves 'Dr' and I know a great deal of medical doctors that ALWAYS say they are 'John Doe' but NEVER that they are 'Dr. John Doe' It's funny because it's true. :rofl: :rofl:

Tell that to codetrap over there...

[codetrap]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff


Holy shit, I've discredited you thoroughly already, and yet you come back for more? Ok, here we go again:

1. You used an American site to quote the educational requirements. We're in Canada, bitch. And don't you think I would probably be more familiar about entrance requirements than you anyway? I can tell you about real people from the U of A's med classes...while you find the wrong sites to quote off Google.

You set the playing field by quoting from chirobase.org in the first place. An american website. Don't get mad at me for playing the in the backyard you chose. And you still missed the point.


Originally posted by GTS Jeff

2. I have a tough time accepting your "point" in light of all your glaring errors, some of which I have already pointed out. Again, you have been discredited - which means no one takes your "point" seriously.

Really? Hey, you can lead a horse to water... your credibility here isn't looking so good either man. Especially since your post is a nice healthy mix of personal attacks with a sprinkling opinion, but pretty light on fact.


Originally posted by GTS Jeff

3. You think nobody else in the medical world agrees with the guys at chirobase? Hmmm well, I can see a couple posting in this thread...and if you weren't so blinded by your biases, you would see that the majority in this thread are against chiro. Go ahead and tally up the posts.

Hearsay. "My friend at the UofA taking med sez that all JDMs suck, so you shouldn't drive one" Until you can actually provide some solid proof to back up your "medical student friends" at the UofA, then so be it. As for the majority of the posts here?
For Posts: 3
Against Posts: 3
No Stated Opinion Either Way - 5

Mckenzie - For
GTS - Againsts
Teggy - For
Eboi - No stated opinion either way
benyl - Against
Weapon_R - No stated opinion either way
Lint - No stated opinion either way
beecue - Against
codetrap - For
xray - No stated opinion either way
Alpine - No stated opinion either way
urban.one - No stated opinion either way
ooredlude - No stated opinion either way

Umm.. perhaps you should reread the posts. I see information posting, but not a lot of stances being taken. I guess you' re the one being discredited now?



Originally posted by GTS Jeff

4. "We strongly support science-based chiropractic care" They have that in there for LEGAL PROTECTION. Tough concept, I know, but you'll get it one day. Anyway, the very notion of science based chiro is paradoxical. Try proving me wrong, try finding me a single chiropractic scientific journal that is peer-reviewed by scientists outside of the chiropractic field. You won't, because you can't, because they don't exist. One of the tenets of science is open peer-review, which the chiro field does not engage in.

How do you know they put that in there? It's in the fricking mission statement. Did you call them an ask them? Did YOU read thier misison statement? Or did you just ASSume? Did you read any of the interviews with the principals? I guess not, or you wouldn't be making assumptions.

As to your statement about peer review. It doesn't make sense. PEER REVIEW outside of the chiro field? Think about that a minute. The whole point is you are reviewed by your PEERs. Tell me, would you think that a publication produced by a computer science major should be reviewed by a particle physicist? Would they get it? Your statement sir, is a stupid one.

But hey, I could be wrong. There could be a whole of of Pediatricians out there contributing comments and informed opinions on the "real-world outcomes of off-pump coronary artery bypass surgery in a public health care system".

Oh, and I know a quite a few engineering technologists out there that call themselves "engineers". And it's funny, because the actual engineers never insist that you kiss thier iron ring when you talk to them. It's funny, because it's true!

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by codetrap


You set the playing field by quoting from chirobase.org in the first place. An american website. Don't get mad at me for playing the in the backyard you chose. And you still missed the point.



Really? Hey, you can lead a horse to water... your credibility here isn't looking so good either man. Especially since your post is a nice healthy mix of personal attacks with a sprinkling opinion, but pretty light on fact.



Hearsay. "My friend at the UofA taking med sez that all JDMs suck, so you shouldn't drive one" Until you can actually provide some solid proof to back up your "medical student friends" at the UofA, then so be it. As for the majority of the posts here?
For Posts: 3
Against Posts: 3
No Stated Opinion Either Way - 5

Mckenzie - For
GTS - Againsts
Teggy - For
Eboi - No stated opinion either way
benyl - Against
Weapon_R - No stated opinion either way
Lint - No stated opinion either way
beecue - Against
codetrap - For
xray - No stated opinion either way
Alpine - No stated opinion either way
urban.one - No stated opinion either way
ooredlude - No stated opinion either way

Umm.. perhaps you should reread the posts. I see information posting, but not a lot of stances being taken. I guess you' re the one being discredited now?




How do you know they put that in there? It's in the fricking mission statement. Did you call them an ask them? Did YOU read thier misison statement? Or did you just ASSume? Did you read any of the interviews with the principals? I guess not, or you wouldn't be making assumptions.

As to your statement about peer review. It doesn't make sense. PEER REVIEW outside of the chiro field? Think about that a minute. The whole point is you are reviewed by your PEERs. Tell me, would you think that a publication produced by a computer science major should be reviewed by a particle physicist? Would they get it? Your statement sir, is a stupid one.

But hey, I could be wrong. There could be a whole of of Pediatricians out there contributing comments and informed opinions on the "real-world outcomes of off-pump coronary artery bypass surgery in a public health care system".

Oh, and I know a quite a few engineering technologists out there that call themselves "engineers". And it's funny, because the actual engineers never insist that you kiss thier iron ring when you talk to them. It's funny, because it's true! You are confusing fact with personal attacks. If it's a fact that you don't know wtf you're talking about, then it's not exactly a personal attack when I tell you that.

As for your skewed tallying...man, give your head a shake! Everyone whom you've listed as no opinion either way has said something condemning either chiro or your misinformation. As as example, both xrayvsn and lint are what you might consider in the medical field, and both of them are pretty clearly "against" even though you've listed them as no opinion. Hey, just because they aren't so vocal about it doesn't mean they don't hold an opinion! Lint posted a link slamming chiropractics and xrayvsn politely told you that you were wrong and stressed that MDs receive wayyyy more training than chiros. Just because they don't say, "I hate chiros" doesn't mean they don't have an opinion. It's already implied. How can you blatantly ignore that?

Now as for peer review, you're using some extreme examples. I take it you don't have much experience in the research field. Don't get me wrong, I don't either, but I've read enough papers to know that interdisciplinary peer review is prevalent. Sure, a pediatrician might be reviewing an article written by cardiologists on cardiomyopathies. Sure, a geologist would review an article written by a comp sci researcher, if it had to do with a computer program forecasting global ocean levels. This sort of peer review is crucial to creating validity within a profession, and it is one that chiros shy away from. Again, try proving me wrong.

[codetrap]

I'll happily admit I'm learning a lot about the whole debate as I go along, which is fine by me. If you're not happy with that, then well, nobody's forcing you to argue with me.

About the posts? When I read them, I can see where they pointed out the mistakes that I made in presenting information, or they've offered up links, such as that PBS video link that doesn't say who that guy is. You might want to follow the sound byte to the actual article, they did an interesting report.

But what you're not getting here, is NONE of them actually say "I think that chiro is a bunch of quackery". Therefore, the logic of "no stated opinion either way" still stands. What that somehow unclear?

I also don't know what they are in the medical field. Are they doctors? X-Ray techs? I'm not likely to believe what anyone says on a forum unless I know them personally, as it's too easy to fake anything on the internet. (BTW, lint and xray, I'm not intending to take a pot shot at you or your education, I just simply don't know you personally)

So, you can skew (or interpret) thier statements however you want, but it doesn't make you any more right than I am.

Research. I don't have much experience in the research field. Doesn't stop me from reading up on research though. And with me being an Engineering Technologist, does that make it peer reviewed?

http://www.sciencemediacentre.org/peer_review.htm

A pediatrician might read the article, but they wouldn't be called upon to review it, they don't have the knowledge. Likewise, the geologist most likely wouldn't be called to review the article for the comp sci researcher to my understanding. But hey, I could be wrong. After all, I'm still learning as I go along. Never denied that . :)

Also, do you even know yet what I'm arguing for? Did I ever state "Everything that a chiropractor has said is from GOD" or, "All chiropractors are frauds, they full of shit!" Or did you just assume that you'd shit on me because you thought you knew better?

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by codetrap
I'll happily admit I'm learning a lot about the whole debate as I go along, which is fine by me. If you're not happy with that, then well, nobody's forcing you to argue with me.

About the posts? When I read them, I can see where they pointed out the mistakes that I made in presenting information, or they've offered up links, such as that PBS video link that doesn't say who that guy is. You might want to follow the sound byte to the actual article, they did an interesting report.

But what you're not getting here, is NONE of them actually say "I think that chiro is a bunch of quackery". Therefore, the logic of "no stated opinion either way" still stands. What that somehow unclear?

I also don't know what they are in the medical field. Are they doctors? X-Ray techs? I'm not likely to believe what anyone says on a forum unless I know them personally, as it's too easy to fake anything on the internet. (BTW, lint and xray, I'm not intending to take a pot shot at you or your education, I just simply don't know you personally)

So, you can skew (or interpret) thier statements however you want, but it doesn't make you any more right than I am.

Research. I don't have much experience in the research field. Doesn't stop me from reading up on research though. And with me being an Engineering Technologist, does that make it peer reviewed?

http://www.sciencemediacentre.org/peer_review.htm

A pediatrician might read the article, but they wouldn't be called upon to review it, they don't have the knowledge. Likewise, the geologist most likely wouldn't be called to review the article for the comp sci researcher to my understanding. But hey, I could be wrong. After all, I'm still learning as I go along. Never denied that . :)

Also, do you even know yet what I'm arguing for? Did I ever state "Everything that a chiropractor has said is from GOD" or, "All chiropractors are frauds, they full of shit!" Or did you just assume that you'd shit on me because you thought you knew better? You're learning as you go along, right, that's just a limpwristed way of saying that you don't know wtf you're talking about because you are broaching upon academic topics without an academic background. I'd say that's as close as we'll get to a good conclusion to this discussion.

[Sharpie]

I used to go to the chiropractor

[bspot]

My cats breath smells like Chiropractor food.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
You're learning as you go along, right, that's just a limpwristed way of saying that you don't know wtf you're talking about because you are broaching upon academic topics without an academic background. I'd say that's as close as we'll get to a good conclusion to this discussion.

Actually, its a way of saying, "I'm not really well versed in the intricasies of peer review, so I'm going to admit I'm not an expert." But I'm willing to learn more about it.

Too bad you, with your outstanding academic credentials, could not admit that you don't know everything about everything. I guess we could just subject this all to some "interdisciplinary peer review" though couldn't we?

Oh, and my position on the topic of chiropractors? I do think they can help, but I think you should keep your eyes open, and be a skeptic about extravagant claims of total health improvement with regular visits. I'm a fan of a more holistic approach myself. Diet, exercise, healthy living, and prevention.

Have a good day Jeff.

[A|pine]

I don't have a history of having bad back problems, but I have had a couple adjustments to my neck when I had a head aches. (Mainly from bad sleeping positions on couches or the ground) And yes, they did help.

I am not in chronic pain or anything to that matter so I personally have not had the treatment that corresponds to that type of injury. I say it works to an extent, but again I'll stress that it is TREATMENT not a CURE.

I am FOR chiropractors. But regardless, why are you comparing them to MDs. I think it's an unfair comparison. Obviously it is harder to get into med school than a chiropractic college. Obviously it's harder to get your CA than your CGA. Obviously one has more credentials than the other and may provide a better solution to your problems.

I say, there is no harm in trying, what's $20 for 1 treatment that may relieve your back pain or not.

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by codetrap


Actually, its a way of saying, "I'm not really well versed in the intricasies of peer review, so I'm going to admit I'm not an expert." But I'm willing to learn more about it.

Too bad you, with your outstanding academic credentials, could not admit that you don't know everything about everything. I guess we could just subject this all to some "interdisciplinary peer review" though couldn't we? Hey, don't try to brand me as a know-it-all, because I'm not. I just know more than you, that's all. There is no crime in that. And you know what I do when I don't wtf I'm talking about? I keep my mouth shut rather than trying to look smart by attempting to deconstruct a thorough online database and using phrases like, "as it were," the way you do. Do you speak with a fake british accent to impress people too? :zzz: Either way, you've finally admitted to not being expert enough to bash chirobase, and that's good enough IMO. I can let things rest now.

[codetrap]

Heh.. Jeff. You're funny. I could dumb down my writing for you if you want.

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by codetrap
Heh.. Jeff. You're funny. I could dumb down my writing for you if you want. Oh please keep it up! Your idea of an advanced lexicon adds humour to my Beyond surfing..."as it were." :rofl:

[codetrap]

Advanced Lexicon!

I have to admit though Jeff, I'm impressed! Multisyllabic words! How unusual! Isn't it a lot nicer now that you've been shaved up and taught to speak? That degree in Bio-Sci is really paying off for you in spades now isn't it? It definitely shows in your tremendous vocabulary. :thumbsup:

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by codetrap
Advanced Lexicon!

I have to admit though Jeff, I'm impressed! Multisyllabic words! How unusual! Isn't it a lot nicer now that you've been shaved up and taught to speak? That degree in Bio-Sci is really paying off for you in spades now isn't it? It definitely shows in your tremendous vocabulary. :thumbsup: Yeah, thanks. I am proud of my degree, though I cannot credit it for my vocabulary, which comes from reading a lot. Why would you try to downplay someone's degree with sarcasm though, especially when you don't have anything better? That's like making fun of someone's M3 when you drive a Cavalier...:dunno:





















Oh wait, I know why, it's cuz I made you look stupid in this thread. Sorry about that.

[Hi-Psi]

I worked in a physio clinic for 5 years so I might be slightly biased but I also worked beside a Chiro and he used to hang out with our therapsist and we used to discuss the pros and cons to both Physio and Chiro.

Basically the problem with Chrio is that they don't strengthen the muscles around the problematic areas. Sure the manipulations get you going but you just become dependent on them to get by.

The nice thing about Physio is that they do strengthen the muscle around the prioblematic area so your body can eventualy prevent the injury from happening again or aggivating itself.

Physios will make you less dependent whereas Chiro will make you constantly dependent.

The best thing to do is to find a Physical Therapist that can do manipulations! That way you get the best of both worlds!

Jay