Gas Price Gouging up to 27c / Litre

[codetrap]

Gotta love this...

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070509/gas_gouging_070509/20070510?hub=Canada

I just love the O&G reponse on the news last night..

"It consumers fault the prices are so high. You have the demand, and we're just responding to that demand by raising prices."

So, just because we're an oil based economy, and everything from the price of electricity to your morning Timmies is tied to the price of gas.. it's our fault the oil companies are profiteering.

Riiiight.... Anyone buy that for a new your minute? Especially when ALL of O&G posts record profits EVERY YEAR.

[redline]

Is that not what a company is suppose to do? I thought the purpose pulic company was return the max value for the is shareholders.

And there is only two oil companies that make gasoline is this province. And the rest sell crude oil and prices are dictated buy the public market, so yes your demand determines the prices.

Dont like ride a bike...

[triver525]

I don't understand why everyone bitches about gas prices. Sure it sucks when it costs an extra $10 to fill the tank but we live in a free market supply and demand economic system. Take a moment and think about how much gas could go up to before you actually started thinking about how much you consume. It's mind boggling to me how hypocritical we are about this sort of thing. On the one hand we all accept that prices of consumer goods will be set at whatever the market will support and that is just fine (especially because most of us get paid from the profits of those goods) but when the market value of gasoline or electricity starts going up we whine and complain about the injustice of it all. What BS! The price of gas goes up because the oil companies know they can get it. Just like the price of popcorn at a movie theatre.

So how can the oil companies be gouging if we, the general public, are all willing to pay the price that they set?

[triver525]

Originally posted by redline
Is that not what a company is suppose to do? I thought the purpose pulic company was return the max value for the is shareholders.

And there is only two oil companies that make gasoline is this province. And the rest sell crude oil and prices are dictated buy the public market, so yes your demand determines the prices.

Dont like ride a bike...

Nice, you beat me to it.

[legendboy]

any way you look at it were getting fucked by oil companys :thumbsdow

[LuxCars]

Perfect i knew someone was gonna start a thread like this.

Did anyone else hear on the radio about this new company thats allowing you to get a card that pays your gas and then get a bill at the end of every month for the gas that you purchased on the card. They also said that it turns out to be .10$ less per litre than the gas prices at the time.

anyone else hear this because i cant remember the name of the company. I think it was on Cjay or the X.

[legendboy]

all i heard was the actual cost for production of gasoline hasn't changed since gas was .60c/L

were getting screwed so bad, like last summer when gas was 1.15/L and then it magically dropped to .85c/L, wtf is that shit

[triver525]

Originally posted by legendboy
all i heard was the actual cost for production of gasoline hasn't changed since gas was .60c/L

That's probably true. The cost of production won't change but the cost of the feedstock (crude) certainly has.

[arian_ma]

Originally posted by LuxCars
Perfect i knew someone was gonna start a thread like this.

Did anyone else hear on the radio about this new company thats allowing you to get a card that pays your gas and then get a bill at the end of every month for the gas that you purchased on the card. They also said that it turns out to be .10$ less per litre than the gas prices at the time.

anyone else hear this because i cant remember the name of the company. I think it was on Cjay or the X.

Petro (and I'm sure all other major companies) has been doing this for a long time. You just get a Petro credit card, and put your gas on there...

Also, since this city is becoming richer and richer, less and less people care about the extra $10 bucks they pay for gas (or extra $90 in the case of Hummer drivers).

[SilverGS]

No one likes to pay more for anything but there are places that pay $3/litre for gas so $1.13 from their point of view is cheap.

You have to ask yourself if you owned a company that sold a product would you not want to sell it for as high as you could without losing customers? There are other alternatives if gas prices are too high, you may not like them, but there are choices

[01RedDX]

.

[Super_Geo]

Europe pays twice what we do for gas.

I don't feel any pity for North American consumers... we buy huge trucks, SUVs and cars with V8s instead of I4s because we see it as our birthright.

Look at Europe... they drive small, efficient cars and the public transportation system is stellar. It's not 'uncool' to take the bus/train or ride a scooter (who gives a shit what gas prices are when you get 100MPG?).

I don't care, let gas up to $2/liter for all I care. And yeah, I know that'll result in an overall increased cost of living as everything we consume needs to be transported... but fuck it, we overconsume like no other society in the world. $2+/liter gas is a wakeup call that North America desperately needs.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by triver525
I don't understand why everyone bitches about gas prices. Sure it sucks when it costs an extra $10 to fill the tank but we live in a free market supply and demand economic system. Take a moment and think about how much gas could go up to before you actually started thinking about how much you consume.

Yeah. Sorry that I have this little addiction to food and heat. I guess that I'll have to stop eating eh? I'm not bitching so much about the fact that it's costing me another couple of bucks to fill the Jetta. I'm bitching because the price of all those groceries that I eat are going up as well to cover the fuel increases. Or the price of heating my house.. or the price of milling the wood that I'm using to finish my basement.. or the price of well.. anything that is moved from one place to another and is affected by fuel costs.....

Or, are you so naive to thing that the company that carries your beer to the liquor store isn't going to raise their prices to cover the fuel cost, plus a little bit. Then the supplier isn't going to raise their price to cover their increased cost.. plus a little bit.. then the liquor store is going to increase thier prices to cover thier increased cost.. plus a little bit.... now, your beer has just gone up a buck a bottle... sux eh?

Isn't the point of the gov't to protect consumers from profiteering?

[Toma]

Yeah, oil is down to what ... $61 US a barrel AND at the same time, the US dollar is down 7% in the last few months... yet gas prices go up??

This is an oil based economy, and they are selling what is RIGHTFULLY OUR product back to us...

So, ROYALTIES need to go WAY up, and gas prices need to be government regulated.

Sad when we pay MORE than the Americans we sell to :dunno:

[redline]

Originally posted by codetrap


. Or the price of heating my house..

the price of natural gas is half of what it was last year...




Isn't the point of the gov't to protect consumers from profiteering?

No it is called capitalism, that is the system we have, if you dont like it move to some commie place with Toma.

[redline]

Originally posted by Toma
Yeah, oil is down to what ... $61 US a barrel AND at the same time, the US dollar is down 7% in the last few months... yet gas prices go up??

This is an oil based economy, and they are selling what is RIGHTFULLY OUR product back to us...

So, ROYALTIES need to go WAY up, and gas prices need to be government regulated.

Sad when we pay MORE than the Americans we sell to :dunno:

Should we have government regulate the price of everything then?

[Super_Geo]

Originally posted by Toma
Yeah, oil is down to what ... $61 US a barrel AND at the same time, the US dollar is down 7% in the last few months... yet gas prices go up??

This is an oil based economy, and they are selling what is RIGHTFULLY OUR product back to us...

So, ROYALTIES need to go WAY up, and gas prices need to be government regulated.

Sad when we pay MORE than the Americans we sell to :dunno:

Last time I checked we're not pumping crude oil into our cars. Our oil companies sell the US oil companies crude oil... they refine it and sell our consumers gasoline. Sure they become the middleman, but those refineries are hundreds of millions of dollars to build, if not billions.

[Audio_Rookie]

oil prices are not changed.........

gas prices magically spike instantly........like when a tornado hits a refinery....isn't there supposed to be roughly a 4 week time line before that effects prices because It takes that long to refine and ship it anyways?

but prices instantly soar up........and when the refinery is fixed.......or whatever is fixed.....they don't crash down right away.......they take their sweet fucking time....and then it moves up right away after that anyways.

[legendboy]

Originally posted by redline


Should we have government regulate the price of everything then?

thats dumb man, oil and its by products are basically necessities. you don't see this happening with food do u? u think people would stand for that???

[LuxCars]

About my previous post earlier, i just heard the advertisment again, its Miller Ag Supply. but it seems the card would only work for Imperial oil (esso).

[codetrap]

Originally posted by redline


the price of natural gas is half of what it was last year...

No it is called capitalism, that is the system we have, if you dont like it move to some commie place with Toma.

I just checked my bill.. last year on my June bill, it was 5.97/GJ.. currently, its 5.53/GJ.

I also disagree that we live in a true capitalist state. Canada is fairly socialist overall, so yes, I do think the government should enact laws for accountability, and transparency in industries that affect every facet of our lives. Considering that we're an oil based economy, then there should definitely be some controls in place to prevent the oil companies from talking to each other an engaging in what appear to be nothing more than pure profiteering.

At this time, there is no real reason for the spikes we're seeing, other than the oil companies "word" that it's all supply and demand. If that were true, then why aren't we reading about shortages? Gas stations not getting fuel?

[dezinr]

It's funny to hear the debate about gas prices and how O+G companies screw us....it is no different than the current real estate market....developers/flippers/landlords are jacking up the cost of living but no one bitches about that becuase most people are making profit in some form or another....so how are people dealing in real estate any different from O+G companies? Gas companies are making their profit just like someone making a 100k on their house. In my opinion there is no difference. Most of the real estate is way more inflated that gas is IMO.

[rc2002]

Originally posted by Super_Geo
Europe pays twice what we do for gas.

I don't feel any pity for North American consumers... we buy huge trucks, SUVs and cars with V8s instead of I4s because we see it as our birthright.

Look at Europe... they drive small, efficient cars and the public transportation system is stellar. It's not 'uncool' to take the bus/train or ride a scooter (who gives a shit what gas prices are when you get 100MPG?).

I don't care, let gas up to $2/liter for all I care. And yeah, I know that'll result in an overall increased cost of living as everything we consume needs to be transported... but fuck it, we overconsume like no other society in the world. $2+/liter gas is a wakeup call that North America desperately needs.

Agreed. $2/L gas, even $3/L and $4/L gas would be fine. All these one passenger cars in Calgary are clogging up the roads. It's either way to cheap to drive here, or people here have too much money.

[syeve]

Stupid oil companies making all that money...who do they think they are??

[dezinr]

Originally posted by richardchan2002


Agreed. $2/L gas, even $3/L and $4/L gas would be fine. All these one passenger cars in Calgary are clogging up the roads. It's either way to cheap to drive here, or people here have too much money.

Agreed!

[syeve]

Originally posted by codetrap
Considering that we're an oil based economy, then there should definitely be some controls in place to prevent the oil companies from talking to each other an engaging in what appear to be nothing more than pure profiteering.

At this time, there is no real reason for the spikes we're seeing, other than the oil companies "word" that it's all supply and demand. If that were true, then why aren't we reading about shortages? Gas stations not getting fuel?

We LIVE in an mixed economy, I don't think you would like the alternative. Private companies setting price until demand decreases. As demand increases, so does price...it's really not that hard to understand.

They (the big bad oil co's) will continue to increase price until demand level's off...that is their right. IN FACT it is their responsibility to their shareholders.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by richardchan2002


Agreed. $2/L gas, even $3/L and $4/L gas would be fine. All these one passenger cars in Calgary are clogging up the roads. It's either way to cheap to drive here, or people here have too much money.

Be careful what you wish for .. when you're paying $6.50 for that can of coke, or $10 for that deli sandwich from subway.

[01RedDX]

.

[syeve]

I don't understand why people have a problem with co's here making $$$? Take a quick look at the insurance swindlers? Those guys can't even hide their muliti-billion profits...an insurance co by defnition is not suppose to make that kind of revenues yet every year they rake it in.

Price gouging is illegal but you are in the gray area of economic "theory". So the Oil companies have shareholders that can sue (and rightfully sue) if the directors of said companies do NOT maximise profits.

They sell x litres/year at $0.60, they are selling more @ $1.10, they will increase it until we STOP buying gas. Same as parking downtown...it is all what WE are willing to pay.

[LuxCars]

Originally posted by dezinr
It's funny to hear the debate about gas prices and how O+G companies screw us....it is no different than the current real estate market....developers/flippers/landlords are jacking up the cost of living but no one bitches about that becuase most people are making profit in some form or another....so how are people dealing in real estate any different from O+G companies? Gas companies are making their profit just like someone making a 100k on their house. In my opinion there is no difference. Most of the real estate is way more inflated that gas is IMO.



Are you kidding, there is much debate about the housing crisis and real estate prices. Infact they are having constant meetings with the public and amongst themselves to try and create a cap for the rising expenses of rent. People complain way more about the prices of houses/rent than the price of gas because it causes many people to go homeless and have to move out of calgary whereas the gas prices still give you the option of taking the bus, biking, or carpooling.

[dezinr]

^^^^

I know what you are saying but that is not going to stop people from tyring to make as much as possible on their flip even though in most cases it isn't worth that by a long shot. Most condo developers are trying to get into the $1000/sqft. market. Sure there is alot of talk about housing but nothing is being done about it. Like the province setting up a task force to look into the problem of housing.....everyone already knew there was a problem....we don't need a funded task force to tell us what we already know....use that money to work on solutions instead.

[core_upt]

Originally posted by richardchan2002


Agreed. $2/L gas, even $3/L and $4/L gas would be fine. All these one passenger cars in Calgary are clogging up the roads. It's either way to cheap to drive here, or people here have too much money.

Totally different setup. The drive from here to Edmonton could easily be through three countires in Europe. Tehy have efficient mass transit systems in place becasue they have large popuations in very small areas. Canada is the opposite. Therefore, transportation of ANYTHING requires long distance travel which equals gas being burned. $3/litre could easily cripple all of Canada's entire non-oil related industries.

[LuxCars]

Originally posted by dezinr
^^^^

I know what you are saying but that is not going to stop people from tyring to make as much as possible on their flip even though in most cases it isn't worth that by a long shot. Most condo developers are trying to get into the $1000/sqft. market. Sure there is alot of talk about housing but nothing is being done about it. Like the province setting up a task force to look into the problem of housing.....everyone already knew there was a problem....we don't need a funded task force to tell us what we already know....use that money to work on solutions instead.



Well the point of the cap is to help with that. By subjecting developers and landlords to caps they will not be able to continue abusing their power and forcing residence to pay more money. Its obviously gonna take time to properly find a happy meadian between the sellers and the buyers/renters. But it must be done.

If they use the money to work on solutions, how will they know which solutions are best. They would need to research and asses the material at hand. Therefore they create a task force who will follow through and provide their research results.

Either way this thread is about gas prices and i do not want to hijack it since there is already a trhead about the housing increases/ living expenses in calgary.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


Because we, the general public, have no choice.

Choices:

1) walk
2) ride a bike
3) take public transit
4) ride a scooter
5) work from home
6) drive a hybrid
7) car pool
8) live in downtown instead of the burbs
9) come up with a couple billion and start a new refinery

There are always choices. Nobody want to go out of their way for changes.


Originally posted by 01RedDX
What do these countries have in common? They are all major oil producers. Like us.

They also don't own by US interests like oil companies are in Canada.

[01RedDX]

.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by 01RedDX
^ i meant we have no choice but pay the prices that they set.

Well, gather some money and start your own refinery plant and sell gas @ 1/2 market price set by the big boys.

Doesn't sound like a good business plan now does it?

[redline]

Originally posted by legendboy


thats dumb man, oil and its by products are basically necessities. you don't see this happening with food do u? u think people would stand for that???

So is a house should the governement regulate the price of wood... it is a resourse also...

[redline]

Originally posted by 01RedDX
Let's compare our gas prices with some other countries:

Iran: $0.08
Venezuela: $0.10
Saudi Arabia: $0.20
Kuwait: $0.34
Russia: $0.45

What do these countries have in common? They are all major oil producers. Like us.

for the most part of a lower standard of living...

[redline]

How many people in this thread buy bottle water at $2-3/litre?

[redline]

Originally posted by Xtrema


Choices:

1) walk
2) ride a bike
3) take public transit
4) ride a scooter
5) work from home
6) drive a hybrid
7) car pool
8) live in downtown instead of the burbs
9) come up with a couple billion and start a new refinery

There are always choices. Nobody want to go out of their way for changes.




:werd:

Make your own biodiesel/ethanol....

[Velox]

The problem with people driving to work downtown and clogging up the roads is that the public transit system in calgary is just shit.

[Super_Geo]

Haha I still find it hilarious that everyone bitches about gas prices when they are willing to do NOTHING themselves to mitigate the problem.

Carpool?
Bike to work?
Get a smaller, more efficient car?

No, that's impossible. Carpool? What the fuck am I, on welfare? I want the government do all my shit for me... make them sell me gas for $0.50/liter so I can drive down Crowchild in my SUV by myself to and from work everyday :rolleyes: Fuck that. Seeing these SUV drivers getting fucked by high gas prices brings a smile to my face. Personal transportation accounts for almost 1/3 of North American gasoline consumption... getting rid of gas guzzlers would drastically decrease that. But that won't happen, because as North Americans we are entitled to owning a car with a V8 in it to get groceries with... fucking wake up people.

Oil and gas has easily been one of the most under priced commodities for the past half century, now it's starting to catch up. Think about how much it would cost to generate Alberta's electrical needs with coal... or wood. It's a non-comparison.

So instead of bitching like little girls, do something about it. Find some friends in your communities and carpool to work, buy a car with a little 2.0L 4 banger engine, or get a god damn bike (it's not like we don't have enough disgustingly obese people in society as it is). Or... pay the high gas prices... realistically that's all you can do.

[kenny]

Can't believe people bitch about the gas prices but then they'll turn around and spend upwards of $5 for a bottle of water :rofl:

[nismodrifter]

Originally posted by codetrap


Yeah. Sorry that I have this little addiction to food and heat. I guess that I'll have to stop eating eh? I'm not bitching so much about the fact that it's costing me another couple of bucks to fill the Jetta. I'm bitching because the price of all those groceries that I eat are going up as well to cover the fuel increases. Or the price of heating my house.. or the price of milling the wood that I'm using to finish my basement.. or the price of well.. anything that is moved from one place to another and is affected by fuel costs.....

Or, are you so naive to thing that the company that carries your beer to the liquor store isn't going to raise their prices to cover the fuel cost, plus a little bit. Then the supplier isn't going to raise their price to cover their increased cost.. plus a little bit.. then the liquor store is going to increase thier prices to cover thier increased cost.. plus a little bit.... now, your beer has just gone up a buck a bottle... sux eh?

Isn't the point of the gov't to protect consumers from profiteering?

Considering the majority of transport is done using diesel engines and that the price of diesel has stayed constant over the last few months, I'd have to say that you are wrong.

I reckon you ought to think things through further before starting to post your horribly over generalized statements regarding this ripple effect. OMG TEH PRICE OF GASOLINE HAS SPIKED UP SO TRACTOR-TRAILER DRIVERS IS GOING TO BE PAYING MORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEE.:dunno:

Actually, I remember paying the same for diesel last year! It did temporarily go up to around 99 cents or so max but the price is now back down in the .80's.

[01RedDX]

.

[DRKM]

I would have loved to hear these 'hardline Capitaists' speak about ENRON, and how it was just Forfilling its duty to the share holders. Or lets just bring back cheap slave labour. Those are all things that gouge one group of people and a smaller group profits from it.

The fact is that we live in a Socialist Country that is obligated to pay attention to price gouging. The fact that calgary is wasteful or ineffeicient has nothing to do with it.

The gouging is clear and that is the point. I can be very sure that the price of gas will be a political platform in the next election.

If the Majority of people out there demand accountability from the oil and gas sector, than they are obligated to do something about it.

I can assure you that the people disagreeing with price gouging from the o and g sector are a very small minority. Since the rest of the country is paying these prices and not profiting from them like some indiviuals here.

[barbarian]

The price of gas a couple days ago was $1.054 per litre, or $3.60 USD / gallon. In California, it's running $3.30 USD / gallon. Overall, I'd say we're not doing too bad in Canada.

[barbarian]

Originally posted by codetrap


I just checked my bill.. last year on my June bill, it was 5.97/GJ.. currently, its 5.53/GJ.

I also disagree that we live in a true capitalist state. Canada is fairly socialist overall, so yes, I do think the government should enact laws for accountability, and transparency in industries that affect every facet of our lives. Considering that we're an oil based economy, then there should definitely be some controls in place to prevent the oil companies from talking to each other an engaging in what appear to be nothing more than pure profiteering.

At this time, there is no real reason for the spikes we're seeing, other than the oil companies "word" that it's all supply and demand. If that were true, then why aren't we reading about shortages? Gas stations not getting fuel?

Why would anyone build a refinery and sell gas blends if you can't make a profit anymore? We already have a refining shortage in N. America as it is.

Part of the problem with commodities like gasoline is that production capability (refining) lags behind demand when the economy heats up too fast. You don't build a new refinery until you're sure you'll be able to pay it off, and doing so when the economy is down is really risky. Once you recognize the demand, it takes 5 years from start to finish to get it going. But don't worry, when the economy swings the other way, gas will be cheap again.

Just saw a sob story on some Detroit station about how some family (2 adults + 2 kids) can't afford the God-given-right to drive their FULL SIZE GM Van 8 hours to visit the grandparents, because gas is so expensive. They had a Cavalier sitting there that gets ~30 mpg, but "it'd be too crazy the way [their] kids fight." N. American society disgusts me, the obvious solution here is to punish kids more for being idiots, so you can take a cheaper-on-gas car.

[redline]

Originally posted by 01RedDX
You guys are mostly missing the point. There is no reason why we should be paying any more for gas than the Americans. Our mixed capitalist-socialist market system was designed to control blatant profiteering like this. If you think gas prices are strictly market-regulated you are kidding yourself. O&G is the most powerful and influential industry with all the politicians in their back pocket. I am not bitching about gas prices per se, and I could care less even if it goes to $2.50 a liter, I am strictly arguing on ethical grounds.

No you are missing the piont it is our socialist side that taxes gas more... and canadians are dumb and have proven a willingness to con't spend at the same rate regardless of price. At least the americans changed at $3/gal...

[redline]

Originally posted by DRKM
I would have loved to hear these 'hardline Capitaists' speak about ENRON, and how it was just Forfilling its duty to the share holders. Or lets just bring back cheap slave labour. Those are all things that gouge one group of people and a smaller group profits from it.

The fact is that we live in a Socialist Country that is obligated to pay attention to price gouging. The fact that calgary is wasteful or ineffeicient has nothing to do with it.

The gouging is clear and that is the point. I can be very sure that the price of gas will be a political platform in the next election.

If the Majority of people out there demand accountability from the oil and gas sector, than they are obligated to do something about it.

I can assure you that the people disagreeing with price gouging from the o and g sector are a very small minority. Since the rest of the country is paying these prices and not profiting from them like some indiviuals here.

then speak with your wallet and dont buy gas...

[pinoyhero]

Originally posted by redline
Is that not what a company is suppose to do? I thought the purpose pulic company was return the max value for the is shareholders.

And there is only two oil companies that make gasoline is this province. And the rest sell crude oil and prices are dictated buy the public market, so yes your demand determines the prices.

Dont like ride a bike...

Thank you for not making me type, this, what's with all this damn socialism! Seriously if you dont like gas prices, walk, bus, train, bike ... seriously. What next you're going to complain because rolexes are $10,000 and the profit margins on those are too much? Come on.

[pinoyhero]

Originally posted by DRKM
I would have loved to hear these 'hardline Capitaists' speak about ENRON, and how it was just Forfilling its duty to the share holders. Or lets just bring back cheap slave labour. Those are all things that gouge one group of people and a smaller group profits from it.

The fact is that we live in a Socialist Country that is obligated to pay attention to price gouging. The fact that calgary is wasteful or ineffeicient has nothing to do with it.

The gouging is clear and that is the point. I can be very sure that the price of gas will be a political platform in the next election.

If the Majority of people out there demand accountability from the oil and gas sector, than they are obligated to do something about it.

I can assure you that the people disagreeing with price gouging from the o and g sector are a very small minority. Since the rest of the country is paying these prices and not profiting from them like some indiviuals here.

Man I can't wait til the socialists look for politicians to lower gas prices, you know what will happen ... O&G compaines will eventually say ... fuck it, I'll take my gas elsewhere and sell it where i can make money. Same goes for "rent control" another BS socialist program, what are investors and developers doing ... clawing back projects in fear that they will not be able to attain an adequate ROE. So what happens next ... people complain about shortage, then the government raises taxes to get into the business of O&G and gasoline distribution. Why not let the pros do it, rather than a government who's spending goes far less, "checked" than that of a public company who has expertise at doing it. At the end of the day in the long run you'll end up paying more for gas anyways, so dont distort the market and at the very least keep your ability to send market signals and decreaed demand in response to price changes.

[redline]

and if you want to talk price gouging, let talk parking cause that has more then doubled and the costs have not went up at all... at least the costs to make gas have went up!

[max_boost]

They are in business to make money, not friends. Sure most of you feel the sting, heck I am really noticing it at the pumps too but I can't complain because if I hate it enough, I'll change my ways. I can't though, I like driving a fast car, fast, all the time. :D

[pinoyhero]

Originally posted by redline
and if you want to talk price gouging, let talk parking cause that has more then doubled and the costs have not went up at all... at least the costs to make gas have went up!

Sure there's anther one ... but again ... all the spots down town are taken .. why wouldn't the lot owners raise prices ... to not do so would be just dumb. What about Nike's, they cost what $15 to make and we are charged $150 OMG, the raping and pillaging!!!! Come on folks, if you dont like the free market by a one way ticket to a socialist country and get in line for your bread and soup after a 15 hour day of work.

[asuth077]

I see the business logic that supports letting them set their own prices and etc. It is just supply and demand and any market does the same.

I think I would just like to see some sort of kick-back from Alberta. Like other oil producing areas that don't charge their citizens market price. Obviously that wouldn't work becuase we don't have state-run producers, but Alberta should start charging reasonable amounts for the oil out of the ground and ensuring it gets back into the economy somehow.

Alaska has an annual reimbursment program for its citizens. Programs like that make sure that the companies operate freely, and the extra money that citizens are paying gets back to them and in-turn back into the economy.

[Proboscis]

Originally posted by redline


:werd:

Make your own biodiesel/ethanol....

grow jatropha in a sub tropic climate, import, then drive a bio diesel moped.

Truth is I love my American V8 pumpin' out 400ft/lb.

[Toma]

Well, since thes O&G companies are using OUR oil, I would then propose that royalties on what STAYS IN THE COUNTRY for our use (it belongs to us after all) is set at say 25%....

Then Royalties for the export market go to 50%.

You cant GIVE A LIMITED RESOURCE AWAY for barely a 10% return into our economy (what they actually pay after kick backs, back door deal, tax incentives and other crooked shit), and then SUFFER a 20% reduction in our standard of living due to energy costs . What fucking sense does that make? Leave it in the ground then.

Why the fuck should I, the LEGAL OWNER of Alberta's natural resources have to subsuduze some crooked fat fucks yacht, while depleting energy reserves my grand kids may need?

You "pro capitalists" oh, this is "business" dummies are.... dummies. :poosie:

Simple math.... Take a look at total oil and gas production, mulitply by market value, take 20% and that is WHAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO GET. But its not even close.

Secondly... A good engineer friend of mine, and another O&G analyst have done some calcs of the efficiency of extraction from oil sands..... Every barrel of oil extracted not only wastes enormous fresh water... get this.... the process uses MORE ENERGY from natural gas then the extracted oil provides.... Now, heres the fucked part... that natural gas they use for extraction is NOT COUNTED, nor are any royalties paid on it. In fact, my buddies whole project is being hushed hushed by the "big boys" because the results are so astounding.

You morons that spew about oil and gas companies and how great they are need to read some books on the history of the most crooked business on the planet.... even worse then war. Read something like "Blood and Oil", or "The Seven Sisters" for a mere glimpse into who you are speaking out for and supporting.

I expect as much from Redline.... but the rest of you must have some brains....

[pinoyhero]

Originally posted by asuth077
I see the business logic that supports letting them set their own prices and etc. It is just supply and demand and any market does the same.

I think I would just like to see some sort of kick-back from Alberta. Like other oil producing areas that don't charge their citizens market price. Obviously that wouldn't work becuase we don't have state-run producers, but Alberta should start charging reasonable amounts for the oil out of the ground and ensuring it gets back into the economy somehow.

Alaska has an annual reimbursment program for its citizens. Programs like that make sure that the companies operate freely, and the extra money that citizens are paying gets back to them and in-turn back into the economy.

Quick question, why do you think that just because you live here you have entitlment to the return O&G companies get on their investment? Those companies already pay royalities and taxes that go to supporting your infrastructure, keeping tax in AB lower than anywhere else in the country. I can't believe people think that O&G compaines owe them something because they live here, when the govt. starts doing that what will happen ... more bums will more here to drain out infrastructure and tax dollars. If you want some payback, you can get it quite easy, share in the investment and go out a buy the stock of these compaines.

[pinoyhero]

Originally posted by Toma
Well, since thes O&G companies are using OUR oil, I would then propose that royalties on what STAYS IN THE COUNTRY for our use (it belongs to us after all) is set at say 25%....

Then Royalties for the export market go to 50%.

You cant GIVE A LIMITED RESOURCE AWAY for barely a 10% return into our economy (what they actually pay after kick backs, back door deal, tax incentives and other crooked shit), and then SUFFER a 20% reduction in our standard of living due to energy costs . What fucking sense does that make? Leave it in the ground then.

Why the fuck should I, the LEGAL OWNER of Alberta's natural resources have to subsuduze some crooked fat fucks yacht, while depleting energy reserves my grand kids may need?

You "pro capitalists" oh, this is "business" dummies are.... dummies. :poosie:

Simple math.... Take a look at total oil and gas production, mulitply by market value, take 20% and that is WHAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO GET. But its not even close.

Secondly... A good engineer friend of mine, and another O&G analyst have done some calcs of the efficiency of extraction from oil sands..... Every barrel of oil extracted not only wastes enormous fresh water... get this.... the process uses MORE ENERGY from natural gas then the extracted oil provides.... Now, heres the fucked part... that natural gas they use for extraction is NOT COUNTED, nor are any royalties paid on it. In fact, my buddies whole project is being hushed hushed by the "big boys" because the results are so astounding.

You morons that spew about oil and gas companies and how great they are need to read some books on the history of the most crooked business on the planet.... even worse then war. Read something like "Blood and Oil", or "The Seven Sisters" for a mere glimpse into who you are speaking out for and supporting.

I expect as much from Redline.... but the rest of you must have some brains....

I could write a long speel about the socialism you are touting but i'll just tackle may favorite comment in your seemingly illogical rant.

Simple math.... Take a look at total oil and gas production, mulitply by market value, take 20% and that is WHAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO GET. But its not even close.

1. Do you think that these compaines who pay royalties also pay no corporate tax? Add the royalty and the tax and you're way over 20% so perhaps we should be reducing the current royalty.
2. Who are you to say "what we are supposed to get", would you prefer to open your own oil company and extract oil for your self? Feel free, its a free market (not socialist, government run, last time I checked).
3. Would you rather the govt. raise your taxes so they can build the infrastructure with the costs and risk going to the tax payer? I'd just as quickly assume that risk sit with the public companies, who by the way you are free to invest in.
4. What are you going to do with a barrel of crude oil?
5. Would you prefer that the govt. supply gasoline from our oil stocks for free to consumers intra-province? Sounds like a recipe for wasteful use IMO.

[redline]

Originally posted by Toma
Well, since thes O&G companies are using OUR oil, I would then propose that royalties on what STAYS IN THE COUNTRY for our use (it belongs to us after all) is set at say 25%....



It is not yours any more toma you sold it... dont complain now.

And i expected nothing less from you Toma, another factless out of you ass post....

[sullygully]

Originally posted by legendboy


thats dumb man, oil and its by products are basically necessities. you don't see this happening with food do u? u think people would stand for that???

You obviously haven't be buying your own food for any length of time. Food has probably doubled in price in the last 10 years. Gas is no different

Its called inflation, deal with it

[rage2]

Originally posted by DRKM
Or lets just bring back cheap slave labour.
We already have. Everyone's outsourcing to India! :rofl:

[pinoyhero]

Originally posted by sullygully


You obviously haven't be buying your own food for any length of time. Food has probably doubled in price in the last 10 years. Gas is no different

Its called inflation, deal with it

Agreed ... and oil and its by-products a necessity, smae as food? Are you sick? A human can easily live with gasoline whats the matter with you?

[Toma]

Originally posted by redline


It is not yours any more toma you sold it... dont complain now.

And i expected nothing less from you Toma, another factless out of you ass post....
Factless?

Hello Pot....

I certainly never agreed to sell it at 10% of market value. The minerals act of Alberta guarantees me that it's mine, and NOT theirs, and it does not FORCE me to sell it at a price I do not agree with.

Grow up fatty.... I expected nothing less from you... ;)

[pinoyhero]

Originally posted by Toma

Factless?

Hello Pot....

I certainly never agreed to sell it at 10% of market value. The minerals act of Alberta guarantees me that it's mine, and NOT theirs, and it does not FORCE me to sell it at a price I do not agree with.

Grow up fatty.... I expected nothing less from you... ;)

See my above post, where are you getting 10% from? Are the compaines not also paying corporate tax on top of the royalty? A bunch of other points too...why are you against free markets? YOu see to run a business as per your post, would you prefer it if that business wasn't allow to make more than a 15% rate of return?

[Toma]

Originally posted by pinoyhero


See my above post, where are you getting 10% from? Are the compaines not also paying corporate tax on top of the royalty? A bunch of other points too...why are you against free markets? YOu see to run a business as per your post, would you prefer it if that business wasn't allow to make more than a 15% rate of return?
I had someone smarter than me do the math (a ex government Royalty auditor).

My numbers are good. Corporate income tax is another issue altogether, and they have far too many incentives there as well, not to mention how much of the profit just leaves our country.... don't get me started on that....

[Toma]

Originally posted by pinoyhero


why are you against free markets? YOu see to run a business as per your post, would you prefer it if that business wasn't allow to make more than a 15% rate of return?
Actually I am not against "free" markets. These markets are anything BUT free. North american "capitalism" is like a dictatorship.

My simple belief.... ANYTHING that is required by law, OR a natural resource, education and health should not be on the "free markets" and should be strictly regulated. So, if law requires insurance, then dont give it to the private sector. Oil, gas, wood etc.... once its depleted, its depleted.... one cannot, nor have we ever been able to trust "free markets" to regulate themsleves in these matters... that's how we get clear cutting, poisonous effluent in our rivers and air pollution.... These things CANNOT be left to greedy capitalists.

I have no problem with you selling clothing, or running a Pizza joint, carpet installer, or a mechanics shop, sunglass hut etc... just not the essentials, nor a business that lends itself to being a natural monopoly.

[01RedDX]

.

[DRKM]

Originally posted by Toma

Actually I am not against "free" markets. These markets are anything BUT free. North american "capitalism" is like a dictatorship.

My simple belief.... ANYTHING that is required by law, OR a natural resource, education and health should not be on the "free markets" and should be strictly regulated. So, if law requires insurance, then dont give it to the private sector. Oil, gas, wood etc.... once its depleted, its depleted.... one cannot, nor have we ever been able to trust "free markets" to regulate themsleves in these matters... that's how we get clear cutting, poisonous effluent in our rivers and air pollution.... These things CANNOT be left to greedy capitalists.

I have no problem with you selling clothing, or running a Pizza joint, carpet installer, or a mechanics shop, sunglass hut etc... just not the essentials, nor a business that lends itself to being a natural monopoly.



I could not agree more. natural monopoly

[240SX17]

lol for you who say ride a bike, walk or something. what about the people that work construction? that have to drive to job sites? or people that cant ride a bike or cant walk far? like old people? like comeon we are gettin fucked by these oil companys but we cant do shit, so we gotta just sit on are asses and pay! if the raise it 2$a L you think your going to stop driving?

[Canmorite]

Originally posted by kenny
Can't believe people bitch about the gas prices but then they'll turn around and spend upwards of $5 for a bottle of water :rofl:

Haha I've wondered that too. People buy gas for $1.10/L and bitch, then go inside to pay and buy a 500ml Dasani water for $1.79 :nut:

[mvprimate]

The thing is that there is plenty of supply so if there is true competition the price should in fact be going down. The problem is that the oil companies are so huge now, and completely vertically integrated that they are not competing for customers like in other industries.

[asuth077]

Originally posted by pinoyhero


Quick question, why do you think that just because you live here you have entitlment to the return O&G companies get on their investment? Those companies already pay royalities and taxes that go to supporting your infrastructure, keeping tax in AB lower than anywhere else in the country. I can't believe people think that O&G compaines owe them something because they live here, when the govt. starts doing that what will happen ... more bums will more here to drain out infrastructure and tax dollars. If you want some payback, you can get it quite easy, share in the investment and go out a buy the stock of these compaines.

Not the return that O&G companies make, a return on the O&G this province sells. Our royalties are too low and if they were appropriate they could easily be doing what Alaska does and issue cheques to citizens of the province.

http://www.earthrights.net/docs/oilrent.html

[JDMMAN]

I think most are not considering the fact that although oil supply itself is increased, the problem is the bottleneck of the refineries. Didn't you guys see the refinery in Oklahoma blow up b/c of the lighting strike? Also, with the introduction of lower sulfer fuels being mandated all the refineries have to shut down to do their upgrades. Hence decreased supply, increased demand of this specific season = increased prices.

[Supa Dexta]

Oil company's made money when it was at 10$ barrel.. People are very blind in saying, oh yeah they should make profit, it should go to 2$L.. etc.. Theres only a handful of rigs working right now, yet they keep raping in major profits.. They have us all by the balls and most are too dumb and lazy to even think about it, let alone act.. sheep, letting them lead us as they wish...

[redline]

Originally posted by Toma

Factless?

Hello Pot....

I certainly never agreed to sell it at 10% of market value. The minerals act of Alberta guarantees me that it's mine, and NOT theirs, and it does not FORCE me to sell it at a price I do not agree with.

Grow up fatty.... I expected nothing less from you... ;)

ok terrorist toma just go :cry: some more, your usless facts mean nothing....

[Atriux]

Originally posted by 240SX17
lol for you who say ride a bike, walk or something. what about the people that work construction? that have to drive to job sites? or people that cant ride a bike or cant walk far? like old people? like comeon we are gettin fucked by these oil companys but we cant do shit, so we gotta just sit on are asses and pay! if the raise it 2$a L you think your going to stop driving?

I'm surpised so many people are complaining. All that's happening is inflation!

Groceries and food can increase in price (a necessity in life) yet people are never complaining. Yet a simple rise in gas prices will make them flip?

If you bought an efficent car chances are you won't be worrying about the extra 2-4$ that it's going to cost you. However, if you can't live without driving the fancy cars, where the increase in fuel will cost you 10+$, you deserve it.

How much of the population in Calgary are working construction, or other things that walking a few kilos would kill them? Getting that little bit of exercise wouldn't kill most people, would it?

Anyways, just my two cents

Atriux

[katana9x4]

Originally posted by Toma

Actually I am not against "free" markets. These markets are anything BUT free. North american "capitalism" is like a dictatorship.

My simple belief.... ANYTHING that is required by law, OR a natural resource, education and health should not be on the "free markets" and should be strictly regulated. So, if law requires insurance, then dont give it to the private sector. Oil, gas, wood etc.... once its depleted, its depleted.... one cannot, nor have we ever been able to trust "free markets" to regulate themsleves in these matters... that's how we get clear cutting, poisonous effluent in our rivers and air pollution.... These things CANNOT be left to greedy capitalists.

I have no problem with you selling clothing, or running a Pizza joint, carpet installer, or a mechanics shop, sunglass hut etc... just not the essentials, nor a business that lends itself to being a natural monopoly.


:werd: most logical thing i've read in this thread so far

[davidI]

Originally posted by Supa Dexta
Oil company's made money when it was at 10$ barrel.. People are very blind in saying, oh yeah they should make profit, it should go to 2$L.. etc.. Theres only a handful of rigs working right now, yet they keep raping in major profits.. They have us all by the balls and most are too dumb and lazy to even think about it, let alone act.. sheep, letting them lead us as they wish...

The reason so few rigs are working are because the capital costs of drilling are too high. It's all supply and demand. When the price of oil went up, companies were drilling like crazy to increase the supply of oil. This decreased the supply of rigs. Service companies took advantage and the price of rigs went up. Drilling goes down because of the cost...it's just supply & demand working.

If you listen to most of the top oil executives, they are all saying that the consumer needs to do their part to decrease demand. Just remember that the oil companies don't set the prices for what they sell. They look for the best prices they can get from the refineries. The refineries set their prices according to the market. The oil futures market also has a lot to do with the high prices as the prices are inflated just as badly as the stock market.

There is no monopoly on gasoline and distillate supplies as was the case when Standard Oil was trying to dominate the industry. OPEC has some control over pricing but their control over world-wide production is decreasing more and more. There is competition out there. Many oil companies are proclaiming record profits but that money is necessary to re-invest and increase supply or else the price will just be driven higher and higher by the fine balance between supply and demand.

Increasing royalties will just cause for less domestic production and an increase in the price of oil or the use of more imported oil from mexico, venezuela and the middle East. Most Canadian crude is refined in the US. A lot of our gasoline supplies need to be shipped back to us from the states...this and the different tax structure accounts for the higher prices on gasoline.

I'm personally a fan of letting the free market price things. If there is any solution I think it should be for the government to INCREASE TAXES ON GASOLINE (obviously this will never happen as it's political suicide). This may sound counter-intuitive to some but I see a lot more benefits from that than increasing royalties. I'm sure people will argue that this will increase the price of consumer goods, construction and other things. Well, that's supply and demand. How are goods delivered and things built in Europe? People will say that the population is denser there and I agree that has some impact, but I also know that people live much more energy efficient lifestyles. Smaller homes, less appliances etc.

Decreasing domestic consumption and consumer behaviour is the most sensible option. Increasing royalties on domestic production will just cause our resources to be neglected while international supplies that offer a better ROI are sought. A decrease in domestic production will cause increased unemployment, less $$$ for gov't and less security in supply and pricing (given that most of the oil in the world is found in politically volatile climates).

Everyone provides good arguments and the truth of the matter is that there is no perfect answer. I just wish people would stop complaining before evaluating their own energy consumption and doing their part to decrease demand.

[JamesV888]

if you want to drive a SUV, drive a turbo diesel. If you want to go to work or get grocery, a 2.0L 4 banger is more than enough. There is no need for a gas guzzler 4X4 with summer tires driving around on the streets. Its like $100.00 a week or less.

If you drive a SUV and complain about gas prices, tough.

I wish gas prices double for you.

[DRKM]

Originally posted by JamesV888
if you want to drive a SUV, drive a turbo diesel. If you want to go to work or get grocery, a 2.0L 4 banger is more than enough. There is no need for a gas guzzler 4X4 with summer tires driving around on the streets. Its like $100.00 a week or less.

If you drive a SUV and complain about gas prices, tough.

I wish gas prices double for you.

This has nothing to do with the debate at hand. Please keep your remarks to yourself.

On a side note: I think it is pretty ridiculous that it costs $40 to fill up my honda civic.

[Supa Dexta]

Originally posted by davidI


The reason so few rigs are working are because the capital costs of drilling are too high. It's all supply and demand. When the price of oil went up, companies were drilling like crazy to increase the supply of oil. This decreased the supply of rigs. Service companies took advantage and the price of rigs went up. Drilling goes down because of the cost...it's just supply & demand working.

If you listen to most of the top oil executives, they are all saying that the consumer needs to do their part to decrease demand. Just remember that the oil companies don't set the prices for what they sell. They look for the best prices they can get from the refineries. The refineries set their prices according to the market. The oil futures market also has a lot to do with the high prices as the prices are inflated just as badly as the stock market.

There is no monopoly on gasoline and distillate supplies as was the case when Standard Oil was trying to dominate the industry. OPEC has some control over pricing but their control over world-wide production is decreasing more and more. There is competition out there. Many oil companies are proclaiming record profits but that money is necessary to re-invest and increase supply or else the price will just be driven higher and higher by the fine balance between supply and demand.

Increasing royalties will just cause for less domestic production and an increase in the price of oil or the use of more imported oil from mexico, venezuela and the middle East. Most Canadian crude is refined in the US. A lot of our gasoline supplies need to be shipped back to us from the states...this and the different tax structure accounts for the higher prices on gasoline.

I'm personally a fan of letting the free market price things. If there is any solution I think it should be for the government to INCREASE TAXES ON GASOLINE (obviously this will never happen as it's political suicide). This may sound counter-intuitive to some but I see a lot more benefits from that than increasing royalties. I'm sure people will argue that this will increase the price of consumer goods, construction and other things. Well, that's supply and demand. How are goods delivered and things built in Europe? People will say that the population is denser there and I agree that has some impact, but I also know that people live much more energy efficient lifestyles. Smaller homes, less appliances etc.

Decreasing domestic consumption and consumer behaviour is the most sensible option. Increasing royalties on domestic production will just cause our resources to be neglected while international supplies that offer a better ROI are sought. A decrease in domestic production will cause increased unemployment, less $$$ for gov't and less security in supply and pricing (given that most of the oil in the world is found in politically volatile climates).

Everyone provides good arguments and the truth of the matter is that there is no perfect answer. I just wish people would stop complaining before evaluating their own energy consumption and doing their part to decrease demand.

:rolleyes:

61 rigs drilling, 668 sitting..

People go on about, get a smaller car, get a smaller house, bike to work.. etc.. ha.. As if it is that easy to just make changes like that.. Meanwhile the poor sap that needs to a truck to work and can't afford a house gets left further behind.. And the fact people point out, oh well no one complains groceries or this or that is going up too.. its just the way things are.. umm that is directly realted to gas going up, FOR NO REASON..

Ah well I'm looking at a rig out my window that will keep us busy for the next 10 yrs, I drive an f250 (not by choice) and I don't pay for a cent of gas for it.. I have a sentra that sits at home hardly used, and a bike that can get 8mpg or 45.. ha.. And sometimes me and my buddies stop in and have gas fights for the fun of it

http://www.davidjanes.com/images/zoolander_gas.jpg

[LilDrunkenSmurf]

^^^ I drive a Ford Ranger for work, and have my own Civic hatch to get me around normally

[codetrap]

Originally posted by nismodrifter
Actually, I remember paying the same for diesel last year! It did temporarily go up to around 99 cents or so max but the price is now back down in the .80's.

Where do you buy your diesel? In the past few fills, I'm paying around 94c/L. That's at shell self serve and Husky self serve in Country Hills.

Oh, and here's some interesting reading for you about price increases affecting the cost of goods..

http://www.shipnorthamerica.com/htmfiles/news_story_032505_3.htm

And some more interesting information about how diesel prices in the US went from around $2/G to $3/G in the past year.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp

All in all, this is a good debate btw.. quite enjoying reading all the varied opinions.

edit..
Just read some more of the other posts.. if you have some viable suggestions on reducing usage, feel free to post them.. stuff like "construction workers carrying a box of tools ride a bike. " is just stupid, but, "carpooling" is great.. so is "riding a bike" or work from home. Stuff that everyone can do while not impacting their ability to provide for thier family...

Some ideas I've put into effect..
-Jetta Wagon instead of Subaru - carpool
-From Carpool point, bike 13K into D/T.
-Use transit rest of year (when available *sigh*)
-Walk to grocery store/back..
-Ride bike for errands.. not drive (take the dog too, she loves it)
-Upgrade house for energy efficiency as much as reasonably possible..
-Ensure all appliances are energy star, reduce amount of powered appliances as much as possible.
-Put up clothesline.. plant trees everywhere..
-Rainbarrels and soaker hoses.. (UFA ftw on price/style)
-high efficiency toilets..
-evaluating replacment hot water heater (tankless)

[pinoyhero]

Originally posted by Toma

I had someone smarter than me do the math (a ex government Royalty auditor).

My numbers are good. Corporate income tax is another issue altogether, and they have far too many incentives there as well, not to mention how much of the profit just leaves our country.... don't get me started on that....

Whart do you mean, "profit that leaves the country", numerous oil compaines are actually Canadian based. Further why is income tax different? Those compaines pay tax on their profits and contribute to our economy in doing so don't they?

What would you rather, a state run oil program under which the governemtn runs all energy in the country and the tax payer foots the bill? Problem there is the average tax payer has very little say in what the copany will do and no choice as to if they want their tax dollar going towards the development of oil. At least with oil companies the shareholder keeps them in check and efficnecies are maximized. Please see the situation in Russia as a case study for how state run energy works ... further, why do you think electricity markets, such as our own deregulate? Its so independant companies can take the risk on investment (eg. drilling numerous dry wells befreo hitting one) rather than the tax payer.

[pinoyhero]

Originally posted by Toma

Actually I am not against "free" markets. These markets are anything BUT free. North american "capitalism" is like a dictatorship.

My simple belief.... ANYTHING that is required by law, OR a natural resource, education and health should not be on the "free markets" and should be strictly regulated. So, if law requires insurance, then dont give it to the private sector. Oil, gas, wood etc.... once its depleted, its depleted.... one cannot, nor have we ever been able to trust "free markets" to regulate themsleves in these matters... that's how we get clear cutting, poisonous effluent in our rivers and air pollution.... These things CANNOT be left to greedy capitalists.

I have no problem with you selling clothing, or running a Pizza joint, carpet installer, or a mechanics shop, sunglass hut etc... just not the essentials, nor a business that lends itself to being a natural monopoly.

We agree on one point, that is certain items need to be collectively coordinated since individual parties can not be expected to loose money for the good of society. Case in point the environment, I agree with you there that environmental issues need to be dealt with centrally and in fact globally.

Items required by law ... say insurance are to be regulated ... hmm, not sure on that one, I again ask, why do you suggest that our tax dollars go towards the risk what individual parties can carry? Our government is not a professional insurance underwriter and to ask them to expand into that would be very costly which would either lead to increased premiums OR increased taxes.

Natural resources is an interesting one. Aside from the agruments made in my previous post, why would you be "for" distorting supply and demand signals. Do you think anyone would car pool or think twice about driving a 6.0L SUV if gas were $0.50. At least under an open market signals can be sent from both the supply and demand side that prices are too high or are too low.

Education and health I also think should be regulated ... to some extent. What happens under these public systems though is constant abuse. Case in point the hypocondriac that goes to the emergency room every time he has the sniffles OR the marginal student who isn't even qualified to attend University but goes cause its free and brings down not only the atmosphere of the calss room but the reputation of our Univeristies as well.

I'm suprised you don't care about clothing stores, or don't feel they should be regulated, what about the child labour being employed to make the clothes? For the record I'm not in favour or regulated clothing.

Bottom line is, you are the consumer, if you don't want to pay the greedy capitalists for their products ... don't.

[pinoyhero]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


:werd: :thumbsup:

Thanks for the thoughtful comments and constructive contribution to this debate.

[pinoyhero]

Originally posted by DRKM
Originally posted by Toma

Actually I am not against "free" markets. These markets are anything BUT free. North american "capitalism" is like a dictatorship.

My simple belief.... ANYTHING that is required by law, OR a natural resource, education and health should not be on the "free markets" and should be strictly regulated. So, if law requires insurance, then dont give it to the private sector. Oil, gas, wood etc.... once its depleted, its depleted.... one cannot, nor have we ever been able to trust "free markets" to regulate themsleves in these matters... that's how we get clear cutting, poisonous effluent in our rivers and air pollution.... These things CANNOT be left to greedy capitalists.

I have no problem with you selling clothing, or running a Pizza joint, carpet installer, or a mechanics shop, sunglass hut etc... just not the essentials, nor a business that lends itself to being a natural monopoly.



I could not agree more. natural monopoly

Natural ... not really ... the price of gasoline is driven largely by the price of the underlying commodity ... crude oil, which is and has been for the past few years at historically high levels. Also, how much of that ~$1.12 do you think is bottom line profit vs. costs and taxes? Petro Canada displays there margins per litres on their pumps, go take a look. I guarantee you its a far lower percentage than what the GAP got off you for the t-shirt your wearing.

[pinoyhero]

Originally posted by 240SX17
lol for you who say ride a bike, walk or something. what about the people that work construction? that have to drive to job sites? or people that cant ride a bike or cant walk far? like old people? like comeon we are gettin fucked by these oil companys but we cant do shit, so we gotta just sit on are asses and pay! if the raise it 2$a L you think your going to stop driving?

Fair enough, the fact that its more conveinient to drive to the construction site is true. But did you consider that cost when you chose your career path? If not you should have, just like the guy downtown that complains about parking ... its part of the job, if you dont like it car pool, buy a smart car, or chose to work in closer proximity to your home.

[pinoyhero]

Originally posted by asuth077


Not the return that O&G companies make, a return on the O&G this province sells. Our royalties are too low and if they were appropriate they could easily be doing what Alaska does and issue cheques to citizens of the province.

http://www.earthrights.net/docs/oilrent.html

Again, an insane concept, writing cheques to people. First off they didn't even do anything, some of the people just show up, try to find work but instead collect EI and free money, great! I'm sorry not how I want the government to spend my money. Why not just lower taxes, at least that way the productive members of our society and economy will benefit a more proportionate share.

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by pinoyhero


Education and health I also think should be regulated ... to some extent. What happens under these public systems though is constant abuse. Case in point the hypocondriac that goes to the emergency room every time he has the sniffles OR the marginal student who isn't even qualified to attend University but goes cause its free and brings down not only the atmosphere of the calss room but the reputation of our Univeristies as well.



Being of Nordic origin I can tell you that you are way, way off on this point. If you look at education in Nordic countries vs North America or anywhere with private education, those countries with private education are behind. Case in point, Finland, free University, and it has one of the top 3, (might be # 1, don't remember), ranked tertiary education systems in the world, top 3, again possibly first in elementary and highschool etc. as well, along with free meals and shorter class times.

I'm all for a Nordic approach to education, the longer we stay away from it, the farther we will fall behind.

[stevo 27]

if i had a company that sold gasoline i would undercut everyone ridiculously 20 cents less a liter everyone would come to you and by the extra costumars you make up for the lower price
and then the other companies would eventully go back down

[CalgarySupra]

Originally posted by 01RedDX
Let's compare our gas prices with some other countries:

Iran: $0.08
Venezuela: $0.10
Saudi Arabia: $0.20
Kuwait: $0.34
Russia: $0.45

What do these countries have in common? They are all major oil producers. Like us.

[barbarian]

Originally posted by Supa Dexta


:rolleyes:

61 rigs drilling, 668 sitting..


Well if that's the case, don't worry, because the coming decrease in housing and office prices in Calgary is about to more than make-up for any gas price increase.


Originally posted by pinoyhero


Again, an insane concept, writing cheques to people. First off they didn't even do anything, some of the people just show up, try to find work but instead collect EI and free money, great! I'm sorry not how I want the government to spend my money. Why not just lower taxes, at least that way the productive members of our society and economy will benefit a more proportionate share.
Exactly, this only works in Alaska because the climate is so extreme that you have to basically bribe people to live there.

[pinoyhero]

Originally posted by Hakkola


Being of Nordic origin I can tell you that you are way, way off on this point. If you look at education in Nordic countries vs North America or anywhere with private education, those countries with private education are behind. Case in point, Finland, free University, and it has one of the top 3, (might be # 1, don't remember), ranked tertiary education systems in the world, top 3, again possibly first in elementary and highschool etc. as well, along with free meals and shorter class times.

I'm all for a Nordic approach to education, the longer we stay away from it, the farther we will fall behind.

I agree to some extent with "free" education, problem is that it can certainly tend to be abused, that and I think nordic countries pay far higher taxes.

[pinoyhero]

Originally posted by stevo 27
if i had a company that sold gasoline i would undercut everyone ridiculously 20 cents less a liter everyone would come to you and by the extra costumars you make up for the lower price
and then the other companies would eventully go back down

And that's exactly what you could try to do in this free market we we live in.

[JDMMAN]

Originally posted by stevo 27
if i had a company that sold gasoline i would undercut everyone ridiculously 20 cents less a liter everyone would come to you and by the extra costumars you make up for the lower price
and then the other companies would eventully go back down

Why would anyone in the right mind under cut their competitors only to increase wear & tear on their own equipment and make the same amount of revenue?

ie: 10 cars @ 50L each @ $1.12/L = $560
vs. 12.X cars @ 50L each @ $0.92 = $560

That just wouldn't make sense to "work" more and make the same. It wouldn't curb our incentive for convience over conservation.

[Supa Dexta]

Originally posted by barbarian


Well if that's the case, don't worry, because the coming decrease in housing and office prices in Calgary is about to more than make-up for any gas price increase.

it is the case, this info is free for the taking over at caodc:

http://www.caodc.ca/rigcounts.htm#wkwestdrill

and its not just the drilling crew that sits, theres dozens of spin off jobs for each rig..

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by pinoyhero

I agree to some extent with "free" education, problem is that it can certainly tend to be abused, that and I think nordic countries pay far higher taxes.

I can't think of any examples of abuse, there are still entry exams for university entrance. Canada has a pretty good economy, and has a miniscule military budget, in comparison to other countries of our size where we save money, not to mention surplus from the oil and gas boom, free education probably would not require much higher taxes. That, and Canada would likely benefit from a much more competitive economy, and most importantly would help diversify our economy.