New BMW M3 to get 7speed DSG-style manual gearbox (by Getrag)

[benyl]

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/225812/

http://www.autocar.co.uk/contentImages/Car/BMW/3Series/2477122941.jpg

The new BMW M3 will get a seven-speed double-clutch gearbox as an alternative to the standard six-speed manual.

Official confirmation of the long-rumoured transmission came via a document issued to BMW dealers confirming the car’s specification.

The new gearbox, called M DCT, will be available from March 2008. Made by BMW’s long-standing transmission partner Getrag, it will provide rapid and nearly imperceptible shifts.

The speed of a double-clutch transmission is likely to improve the M3’s 4.8sec 0-62mph time by a couple of tenths of a second. The system should offer significantly smoother shifts than BMW’s SMG transmission in the M5 and M6.

The transmission will be controlled by a combination of a shift lever, likely to be similar to the M5 and X5’s joystick control, and steering wheel paddles.

The 'box has been exclusively developed for BMW, and different versions are destined for the 3-series and the 5-series.

Other options for the M3 (on sale in September) include 19in alloy wheels and electronic damper control. The carbonfibre roof will be standard

[The Cosworth]

This will drive up the price wont it
:(

[Inzane]

Doesn't anyone like to drive sticks any more?? :dunno:

[rage2]

Originally posted by brendankharris
This will drive up the price wont it
:(
Not really, it should be priced cheaper than the SMG, but more than the 6 speed.

For those that don't know, this is a DSG style transmission, pioneered by VW, and featured in the Veyron. All current F1 cars use this style transmission as well (they call it seamless shift transmissions).


Originally posted by Inzane
Doesn't anyone like to drive sticks any more?? :dunno:
Doesn't anyone like to use drum brakes anymore?? ;)

Progress my friend, no manual transmission would be able to shift as fast as this. Physically impossible haha.

[spyce]

On sale in september? I thought it wasnt going to be available till early 08?:dunno:

[Inzane]

Originally posted by rage2
Progress my friend, no manual transmission would be able to shift as fast as this.

That's all well and good, but hopefully for some of us that was never the primary point of driving a stick.

How much progress will be too much? Do we really want to get to the point where our cars will literally just drive themselves? Is "driving" becoming a lost art?

:(

[PINOY-X]

Originally posted by Inzane
Doesn't anyone like to drive sticks any more?? :dunno:

personally i get tired driving stick sometimes .. specially downtown during rush hour :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[E46..sTyLez]

Originally posted by Inzane


That's all well and good, but hopefully for some of us that was never the primary point of driving a stick.

How much progress will be too much? Do we really want to get to the point where our cars will literally just drive themselves? Is "driving" becoming a lost art?

:(


+1 :werd:

Thats not why I got a manual. I got one cause I like having more control of the car. Not for quickest shifting possible.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Inzane
That's all well and good, but hopefully for some of us that was never the primary point of driving a stick.

How much progress will be too much? Do we really want to get to the point where our cars will literally just drive themselves? Is "driving" becoming a lost art?

:(
I'd like to see any current F1 driver try to drive a current F1 car fitted with a clutch and manual transmission ;).

Power has progressed huge, cornering ability as well compared to just 10 years ago. To think that any joe blow can take advantage of today's car's performances and approach the limit in a manual car SAFELY without making any mistakes is crazy. Cars today are fitted with traction control, DSG/SMG transmissions to ensure that most people can take the car to the limit safely and enjoy the full performance envelope of the vehicle. That's what most of us (I think) considers fun. The cars aren't driving themselves, but it's making a portion of driving easier, so you can concentrate on other portions of driving. If you think just having that transmission will make you drive like Schumacher, it aint gonna happen.

Of course, there's a lot of people that prefer to row through their own gears using clutch and stick, but hey, there's a lot of people that prefer the feel of old tires vs today's completely predicatable and grippy tires. There's a lot of old cars to choose from if you're in that category.

BTW - everyone bitched about the M5 and no manual. Now that the manual is out, they're not selling.

[benyl]

Originally posted by E46..sTyLez



+1 :werd:

Thats not why I got a manual. I got one cause I like having more control of the car. Not for quickest shifting possible.

That is the weakest argument.

The latest DSG/SMG trannies give you the same control. They hold the gear to redline and then bounce off the rev limiter just like a manual. Why wouldn't you want to shift faster and have better clutch control? I guess for all you heel toe fans that like to do acrobatics with your feet, you will have to order the manual.

[E46..sTyLez]

Originally posted by benyl


That is the weakest argument.

The latest DSG/SMG trannies give you the same control. They hold the gear to redline and then bounce off the rev limiter just like a manual. Why wouldn't you want to shift faster and have better clutch control? I guess for all you heel toe fans that like to do acrobatics with your feet, you will have to order the manual.

I wasn't saying that makes a manual better. I stated my preference, I didn't know it was arguing, to have a preference....

[rage2]

Originally posted by E46..sTyLez
I wasn't saying that makes a manual better. I stated my preference, I didn't know it was arguing, to have a preference....
He's not arguing your preference. He's arguing your statement that manual gives you more control over DSG, which it doesn't.

[E46..sTyLez]

Originally posted by rage2

He's not arguing your preference. He's arguing your statement that manual gives you more control over DSG, which it doesn't.

yeah fair enough, i guess it came out wrong.. I just have always used a cluth and I just prefer it I guess, even if the guy with DSG smokes me on the track. I agree 100% that the performance of the car is optimised by the 7spd DSG.

[rage2]

Oh ya, I think I mentioned this in another thread long ago...

Mercedes will have DSG tranny in their AMG cars in the next few years. The current Porsche Turbo will also get DSG treatment I believe as early as next year. Ferrari's Enzo replacement will also feature such a gearbox.

[Xtrema]

So I guess BMW is slowly let SMG fade away.

+1 for DSG. Isn't all new VWs are fitted with DSG instead old skool auto?

And EVO X will be available with DSG as well.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Xtrema
+1 for DSG. Isn't all new VWs are fitted with DSG instead old skool auto?
VW/Audi is all over the place with transmissions.

The GTI has optional DSG. The Passat, Rabbit and Beetle only has optional auto, and the Jetta gets auto or DSG depending on engine choice. Then there's the Audi R8, which has a newly developed SMG style transmission (not dual clutch), but the Veyron has the DSG. Confusing as hell.

[NoFlo]

i had a chance to drive the new audi a3 w/ dsg.

dsg is so awesome...imagine perfect rev-matching on downshifts at the tap of a paddle...its sweet!

[arian_ma]

Originally posted by rage2

I'd like to see any current F1 driver try to drive a current F1 car fitted with a clutch and manual transmission ;).

Yeah but we're not driving F1 cars, and while I understand your point that to take the car to the limit every 10th of a second counts, as well as the safety concerns, I still stand by my opinion that it takes all the fun out of driving. But then again, I am not driving an M3 either so I wouldn't understand.


Originally posted by NoFlo
i had a chance to drive the new audi a3 w/ dsg.

dsg is so awesome...imagine perfect rev-matching on downshifts at the tap of a paddle...its sweet!

Imagine YOU doing those perfect downshifts...wouldn't it feel better?

[NoFlo]

Originally posted by arian_ma
...Imagine YOU doing those perfect downshifts...wouldn't it feel better?

actually i've been doing perfect (and a few less-than-perfect) downshifts for the last 7 years.

i will agree though that it will not be the same...i think of it as trading in one type of fun for another.

i will definitely miss my manual 6-spd when i get into a dsg-equipped car (hopefully in another year or so).

[Canmorite]

6-Speed please.

[stevo 27]

i like standereds because it puts more fun into driving

[boi-alien]

Originally posted by arian_ma
Imagine YOU doing those perfect downshifts...wouldn't it feel better?

nope, but i'd feel a lot better being able to concentrate on taking the perfect line in and out of a corner rather than worrying about having the perfect downshift going into the corner.

[929]

So this has NO clutch PEDAL?

[FiveFreshFish]

Originally posted by 929
So this has NO clutch PEDAL?

Yeah, probably looks something like this E46 M3.

http://www.texasautowholesale.net/CarsForSale/Images/04BMWM3SMG_3_Large.jpg




Gotta love google image search! :thumbsup:


BMW M3 Pedal Pumping in Bally High Heels - Kitty drives to a photo shoot in her SMG equipped BMW M3 convertible. She dangles and plays with those sexy shoes with her toes then pumps the pedals in her Bally high heels.
http://www.wethighheels.com/wetshoe/t9-pedal-pumping/pedal-pumping-3.jpg

[Shaolin]

I got to drive my buddy's new GTI with the DSG.. the shifting was pretty nice but I still like to throw the gears around.. it's too bad you can't have both.. the DSG and the manual 6 speed :D

[LilDrunkenSmurf]

Forgive my ignorance, but does the DSG mean that you have to go through each gear? Like, you wouldn't be able to go 1-3-2 or some random order (not that you would want to unless you were doing a mega downshift).

And what exactly is the DSG? Does that mean you it's like the paddle shifters in the Diesel smart car? You upshift/downshift w/ paddles or shifter and then you also have N and R. At least that was my experience.

[alias]

ok all i want to know is how much??? and will it come in a hard top retractable???

[rage2]

Originally posted by LilDrunkenSmurf
Forgive my ignorance, but does the DSG mean that you have to go through each gear? Like, you wouldn't be able to go 1-3-2 or some random order (not that you would want to unless you were doing a mega downshift).

And what exactly is the DSG? Does that mean you it's like the paddle shifters in the Diesel smart car? You upshift/downshift w/ paddles or shifter and then you also have N and R. At least that was my experience.
DSG is sequential because it's like 2 gearboxes, and the computer predicts if you're going to up or downshift and has the "other" transmission in that gear ready for the change, so you will have to go 1 to 2 to 3. Can't go 1-3, because that's on the same 1/2 of the tranny.

SMG allows multi gear downshifts and upshifts, so you can go 1-3-5-2 if you want.

DSG has an auto mode where it pretty much feels as smooth as a conventional automatic without the torque converter driveline slack. The clutches are still wet clutches, so there's a bit of powerloss compared to a manual or SMG type transmission, but still way better than the power loss of an automatic + tq converter transmission.

In manual mode, DSG shifts via paddles. Shift time is 0ms. You can NOT get any faster than DSG when changing gears. When the tranny goes from 1 to 2, basically 1/2 the tranny's already in first, the other half is in 2nd, and it's just a matter of 2 clutches transferring power from 1 tranny to the other. Current F1 cars all use DSG style transmissions (called SeamlessShift).

Next gen DSG style transmissions (possibly in the new M3 and EVO) will be using dry clutches, so it will match or better a manual transmission equivilent in driveline loss.

[403Gemini]

DSG Sounds interesting... but i just like the feel of driving. Just sounds like we're getting lazy imo.

And rage you brought up a good point, we're enhancing with technology with traction control and what not to improve the driving experience ... but to compare economy cars to a f-1 car is a ridiculous comparison. No street car(well almost no street car lol) will ever put out the power a f-1 car can nor will you be able to hone that much potential on a open roadway without killing yourself (Darwinism steps up to the plate).

You get rid of the manual transmission, you get rid of the heart of the car imo.

[crazedmodder]

Originally posted by 403Gemini
DSG Sounds interesting... but i just like the feel of driving. Just sounds like we're getting lazy imo.

And rage you brought up a good point, we're enhancing with technology with traction control and what not to improve the driving experience ... but to compare economy cars to a f-1 car is a ridiculous comparison. No street car(well almost no street car lol) will ever put out the power a f-1 car can nor will you be able to hone that much potential on a open roadway without killing yourself (Darwinism steps up to the plate).

You get rid of the manual transmission, you get rid of the heart of the car imo.

Darwinism, I really wouldn't call it that. Those people would probably take out innocents with them and I'm sure 99.9999999999999999999999999% of people would screw around at least a couple times if they had a car that powerful (probably more). And rage was talking about performance cars, such as this M3 which are extremely light and powerful.

Now this is a rant not directed at you 403Gemini so don't get offended, but I just feel like so many people need to put their brains in use.
I think ALL cars should come with T/C and ABS today no matter how slow it is, the T/C should have a switch to turn it off but ABS is always a :thumbsup: My friend bitches about ABS but I cut him some slack because he likes older cars but why the heck wouldn't people want ABS? A couple less feet to stop or you're able to avoid that kid that just ran out into the street, what's more important? Pull the fuse at the track if you really hate it but don't jeopardize the safety of other's just because you think you're a better driver than a computer (sorry, you're not). Plus traction control is useful ALL THE TIME, it's never intrusive unless you're being a dick or racing. If you're racing, just turn it off, it's usually one button or a sequence that takes ten seconds of your time. I don't understand why so many people hate technological advancements especially when it's for the safety of them AND others. Like the fact that everyone hates lane departure warnings and warnings about the fact that you will crash, I'm sorry but if you were driving properly these things wouldn't turn on so don't complain that you don't need them. If they bother you then clearly you DO. I wish all cars came with the lane assist and departure warnings, maybe then people would use their fucking turn signals. Go to a secluded stretch of road or a racetrack to do your spirited driving, not on roads that sees a lot of traffic. If you do that then it's probably planned and you can take the ten seconds to turn your shit off and then back on after. I like being alive :clap: Thank You!

Anyways, DSG FTMFW I hope more and more cars adapt it, I did a lot of reading about it close to a year ago because I was really interested when I heard about it. I have to try a car with one sometime. I wouldn't really call DSG (or SMG or wtv) a safety feature but it would help drivers concentrate on driving more so :thumbsup:. I don't really think they should bring out a stick for this car anyways, they're making the right choice. As rage said, look at what happened with the M5. I'm all for progress if you haven't noticed already, bring on the self-driving cars that do 500+MPH without the stress or accidents!!! (with the option to drive ourselves of course :poosie: )

[403Gemini]

Oh dont worry i didnt take any offense to that, and i fully agree traction control and ABS are fantastic and should be equipped with every vehicle. What i was getting at is those technologies were introduced for the growing power of technology we have in our cars today, but I dunno, driivng anything other stand a manual transmission takes some of the "sport" out of driving the car.

Though, i've never driven a DSG car, so i cant TOTALLY judge, but i do get a lot of satisfaction when i take my car out for a drive to enjoy the spirit of driving and throwing around the gears... paddle shifters and what not just dont have the same effect, at least to me. Like i said before , i feel like i am the heart of the car... however i'm not going to lie, when im stuck in gridlock rush hour... an automatic tranny isnt something i would complain about ;)

[barney]

Yep, class 1 technology sold to class 4 drivers.
Whatever, bring it on, I'll still own ur ass' with my lo-tech 4 speed auto.
BTW- what does an M3 go for these days?

[EK 2.0]

interesting...


Hmmmm...I would still miss the feel of rowing through the gears...but you can't argue with technology haha...


Everyone wants to be Schuey haha...

[benyl]

Originally posted by crazedmodder

Darwinism, I really wouldn't call it that. Those people would probably take out innocents with them and I'm sure 99.9999999999999999999999999% of people would screw around at least a couple times if they had a car that powerful (probably more). And rage was talking about performance cars, such as this M3 which are extremely light and powerful.


M3 light? What kind of crack have you been smoking?

The M3 is powerful, but it is heavy.


Originally posted by crazedmodder

A couple less feet to stop or you're able to avoid that kid that just ran out into the street, what's more important?


ABS makes your stopping distances longer not shorter.

ABS prevents the lock up of wheels enabling you to steer around an impending collision. The problem is that most drivers panic and lock their arms. ABS is really doing what it was designed to do in most cases as the driver is too stupid to steer.

T/C on dry pavement is useless and even dangerous with powerful cars. The sophisticated systems (DSC and ASC) like those in the M3 actually cut power rather than using the brakes to get traction. When turning left, if the inside wheel slips and the T/C comes on, you could get T-boned by on coming traffic if you can't accelerate because the Nanny prevents the tires from spinning a little. And then BAM, you get hit.

T/C and ABS make sense to put on every car, but driver education is more important.

[crazedmodder]

Originally posted by benyl


M3 light? What kind of crack have you been smoking?

The M3 is powerful, but it is heavy.

I must be on some cheap crack, just pulling shit outta my ass I guess, it is fast though.


Originally posted by crazedmodder

A couple less feet to stop or you're able to avoid that kid that just ran out into the street, what's more important?



ABS makes your stopping distances longer not shorter.


Re-read because I never said ABS shortens distances, I'll explain what I said more. A couple less feet to stop (if you don't have ABS) OR you're able to avoid that kid that just ran out into the street (if you DO have ABS), what's more important (stopping shorter without ABS or avoiding stuff with ABS)? That's what the or was there for, one OR the other, not both.


ABS prevents the lock up of wheels enabling you to steer around an impending collision. The problem is that most drivers panic and lock their arms. ABS is really doing what it was designed to do in most cases as the driver is too stupid to steer.

T/C on dry pavement is useless and even dangerous with powerful cars. The sophisticated systems (DSC and ASC) like those in the M3 actually cut power rather than using the brakes to get traction. When turning left, if the inside wheel slips and the T/C comes on, you could get T-boned by on coming traffic if you can't accelerate because the Nanny prevents the tires from spinning a little. And then BAM, you get hit.

T/C and ABS make sense to put on every car, but driver education is more important.

I will agree with driver's being freaking stupid and IMO it's way to easy to get a license. I agree that driver education will help a lot, but I say both (smart people plus smart computers) FTW.

I disagree about the T/C however, if you need to accelerate that hard (to the point where T/C comes on) to not get hit by oncoming cars then you should really just wait until the next break in traffic. You shouldn't have to floor it to make it safely across an intersection. 5 minutes wasted > you dying along with most likely fucking someone else up.

editted for retarded bolding in quotes

re-edit: just looked up the weight, it's not that heavy. Around 3500lbs for a pretty good for a heavily equipped car. It's not light either though, so I still take that back.

[FiveFreshFish]

Originally posted by benyl
M3 light? What kind of crack have you been smoking?

The M3 is powerful, but it is heavy.

It's been getting heavier by the generation.

E30 - 2,866 lbs
E36 - 3,175 lbs
E46 - 3,415 lbs

[rage2]

Originally posted by 403Gemini
And rage you brought up a good point, we're enhancing with technology with traction control and what not to improve the driving experience ... but to compare economy cars to a f-1 car is a ridiculous comparison.
It was an analogy, not a comparison hehe.


Originally posted by 403Gemini
You get rid of the manual transmission, you get rid of the heart of the car imo.
Allow me to do a comparison... let's take the good old Porsche 911 series of cars, and it's various states of evolution.

Take a Porsche 911 turbo (930) from the 80's with 80's tires. The 911 was known for snap oversteer, and the 930's were the worst of the bunch. Over the years, it's been dialed out with suspension changes, and mostly with much better tires.

A lot of purists find the current 911's very "numb" because it's so easy to drive... being able to tame an old 930 was something very few can manage. They feel the 911 has lost the 911 magic, and they prefer driving the old 930's. Then they slap on a brand new set of tires, and the car once again is easier to drive. So the progress of tires (lots more grip, much more progressive) took away the heart of the 911.

So does that mean tire technological progress took out the heart of driving? ;)

IMHO, tech progress such as tires, aerodynamics, takes away one part of the driving process, and allows you to focus on other aspects of driving. When I drive an auto/SMG car at the track, I am much more comfortable with taking the car to the limits very quickly. I got a chance to drive a SLR at the track, I was doing 9/10ths laps by the 2nd or 3rd lap. I would never consider doing that in a manual car... I would take some time to get used to the gearshifts, rowing thru the proper gears, clutch engagement points, etc. I would never dive suicidally hard into a corner, knowing that a potential shift error under braking could send the car into the walls.

I'm a good driver, and by no means do I think I'm godlike with my driving abilities. In a manual tranny car I'm comfortable with, I can drive really hard on the street or on the track, but I will leave myself a window of error for a missed shift... I'm not perfect, and I might miss a shift here and there when I'm going hard (just a few weeks ago I missed 2nd gear going into turn 3 on the first lap in another beyonder's M5 because he had a short shifter I wasn't comfy with yet). On an auto/SMG/DSG car, I'll drive a lot harder because I can take out the bad shift factor, and reduce that window of error. Being able to take it closer to 10/10ths is a hell of a lot more exciting than to be able to row my own gears. IMHO of course ;).

Before I got a chance to drive cars with SMG, good autos, etc. I felt the same way. Being able to take these cars that much closer to the limit more consistently and more safely is why I personally prefer 'em. More and more people are feeling the same way after driving SMG/DSG type trannys. Ferrari sells 80% of the cars with their F1 tranny (basically same as SMG). The Enzo and upcoming Ferrari F430 Challenge Stradale are only available with the F1 tranny.

[redline]

^^^ but what about my madz shiften skillllzzzzzz :rofl:

[Hollywood]

I have a getrag 6 speed in my car, refinement is not this tranni's finer points....

[SilverRex]

anyone know how much the new M3 will cost? same as the current M3?

oh, who here has own and M3 and would like comment in winter driving? well for those who can afford one im sure most probablly garage it thru winter, but still, with a set of winter tires, would the M3 be drivable in the winter?

can you fit an infant car seat in the rear?

haha I shouldnt be asking for these, but hack, it feels good to get tempted into one.

trying to justify myself :D

[benyl]

M3 coupe is no different that the 330 coupe. It should fit a car seat.

Winter driving should be the same, just more horses under the hood.

[SilverRex]

I hear the new M3 will cost more the current one, US spec M3 are going up 10k, is this true?

thats quite a jump isnt it?

dam if only it cost around 70k, that would be good, any more than that, this car will only exist in my dreams.

haha

[benyl]

nobody knows any pricing for NA.

The problem is, the US dollar is dropping. So the US prices should come up. CDN price likely won't come down.

The prices in the UK are pretty high, can't remember what it was.

[SilverRex]

Originally posted by benyl
nobody knows any pricing for NA.

The problem is, the US dollar is dropping. So the US prices should come up. CDN price likely won't come down.

The prices in the UK are pretty high, can't remember what it was.

hmm, if that is the case, that means the new M3 should cost the same as the current M3, or at least similar while their US counterpart will get a price hike because of the strong Canadian dollar correct?

[benyl]

nah, the price will likely jump. It is a new V8 after all.

The new 335 is reaching e46 M3 price territory. So there will be a gap up.

My guess is the new M3 will start at $80K and push up to $100K for a fully loaded Cab.

[SilverRex]

Originally posted by benyl
nah, the price will likely jump. It is a new V8 after all.

The new 335 is reaching e46 M3 price territory. So there will be a gap up.

My guess is the new M3 will start at $80K and push up to $100K for a fully loaded Cab.

:eek:

keeping my finger crossed hope it stays in the 70k range...

also, would the MB c63 AMG be around the same price as M3? after all I think they would be competing against each other.

[C4S]

Base price for new M3 in UK is $51K GBP ... same price as the Audi RS4, SLK55 and getting closer and closer to the 911 price range, vs $42K GBP for the E46 M3 .. which is $9K GBP price increase!!! :eek: :eek:

Of course, pricing in Canada will be much less then UK, however, the price increase % should be similar ...
Base price for E46 M3 was app. $75K + taxes .. and RS4 is app. $100K + tax here .. so most likely the new V8 420HP E92 M3 price will be in between .. say ~ 85K-90K + taxes .. similar to the SLK55 price here.

Well .. just guessing ... :D

[C4S]

Ha ha .. Benyl's typing is a bit quicker then mine ... :D

Yeah .. new M3 won't be near $70K range .. not even close .. may be $70K US ..

let's forget about the new M3 now, if you are going to buy one, can't get one till ~2009 anyway .. In UK .. the new M3 will be out in 2 months, and the waiting time for ordering one is ~2.5 yr already .... :dunno: :dunno:

E92 M3 is more compete with CLK 63 .. will see if BMW is going to make the Sedan E90 M3 .. to compete with C63 .. and price for C63 will be close to New M3 range .. expected ~ $63K-65K US :thumbsup: