Ford beats Toyota in quality ratings

[Graham_A_M]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19073071/page/1/

I was BLOWN away while reading this, I didn't know such a huge company could do such a big corporate turnaround so quickly. Sure is great to see their getting their shit together finally.

If only they could redo their styling too, as most of their current offerings are :barf: (particularliy the F-250/350)
Fuck is that thing hideous. :nut:

[hjr]

its not that toyota is all that much worse than they have ever been, its that others are finally catching up, especially korean concerns

[FiveFreshFish]

A couple of surprising names ahead of Toyota in overall quality.

http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/i/msnbc/Components/Art/BUSINESS/070606/AP_JD_POWER_CAR_SURVEY.jpg

[NickGT]

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/charts/2007088a.gif

[dino_martini]

Well, Toyota now knows its not easy being #1. Ask GM!

[Graham_A_M]

I honestly wonder where some of these souces are getting their info from. I've seen numerous stats stating Porsche & Mercedes as the two of the three most problematic manufacturers, with VW being by far the most problematic, but according to those charts, their much the opposite.
Yet all of these vehicle stat companies claim they get their info by reputable sources (WTF?) If their THAT reputable, why would there be such a huge variance between certain car manufacterers. It sure is odd to see Toyota floundering in compairison to how they used to be.
I'll be watching Ford's sales figures and stocks over the next while to see what happens, this sure is going to get interesting.
I've read that the Fusion is an awesome car in terms of reliability, but I didn't know everything else they offered was getting re-vamped too. Hopefully the Ranger is next as its last complete re-do was in 1993. The Frontier and the Tacoma can tow/handle circles around it. :rolleyes:

[dino_martini]

Originally posted by Graham_A_M
I honestly wonder where some of these souces are getting their info from. I've seen numerous stats stating Porsche & Mercedes as the two of the three most problematic manufacturers, with VW being by far the most problematic, but according to those charts, their much the opposite.
Yet all of these vehicle stat companies claim they get their info by reputable sources (WTF?) If their THAT reputable, why would there be such a huge variance between certain car manufacterers.

I think one list of rankings (I dont know the exact name of the list) is ranked by the number of problems in the first 90 days of ownership. So for the first 90 days, a 911 or SL550 could be stellar and the list would reflect that but then for the next year it could be a complete piece of shit but the list wouldnt reflect that.

I dont really think this list influences people that much. If people hear that Toyota is a little down the list they will still buy one because people know that for the most part Toyota are pretty reliable vehicles.

[Q-TIP]

Well, if you go by that list, then Toyota is still in the number two spot, Lexus being toyota. Furthermore, as was stated this is problems within the first 90 days of ownership, this has nothing to do with the reliability of the car over the long term. JD power is also known to be a corporately sponsored group, thus making anything they produce suspect in my mind.

Furthermore, the larger volume a company produces, the more likely they are to start making faults in the manufacturing process. Fortunately most of these defects are caught in the first 90 days. That being said I am a proud Ford/Honda/Lexus owner and all three have their merits and pitfalls. I love my F350, my accord is a damn decent car too, and for sure my RX330 is pretty nice as well.

And to the joker that said the new 08 F350s look ugly...you may be right, but shit, once you drive one the competition feels like they were made in Russia

[crazedmodder]

Originally posted by Graham_A_M
I honestly wonder where some of these souces are getting their info from. I've seen numerous stats stating Porsche & Mercedes as the two of the three most problematic manufacturers, with VW being by far the most problematic, but according to those charts, their much the opposite.
Yet all of these vehicle stat companies claim they get their info by reputable sources (WTF?) If their THAT reputable, why would there be such a huge variance between certain car manufacterers. It sure is odd to see Toyota floundering in compairison to how they used to be.
I'll be watching Ford's sales figures and stocks over the next while to see what happens, this sure is going to get interesting.
I've read that the Fusion is an awesome car in terms of reliability, but I didn't know everything else they offered was getting re-vamped too. Hopefully the Ranger is next as its last complete re-do was in 1993. The Frontier and the Tacoma can tow/handle circles around it. :rolleyes:

I hope the Ranger stays as cheap as it is though. I wouldn't mind picking one up when I get enough money. I really really want a Sierra but it's so damn expensive with no features.

[riander]

Oh man lexus beat toyota what a burn! :drool:

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by Q-TIP
Well, if you go by that list, then Toyota is still in the number two spot, Lexus being toyota.

:rofl:

I love your logic. I guess Ford is really in 6th, because Ford owns Jaguar. Oh, and Lamborghini is owned by the same group that owns Volkswagen, which Porsche owns a part of. So from this information we can also extrapolate that Lamborghini and Volkswagen have the best reliability along with Porsche.

Logic FTW! :thumbsup:

[BrknFngrs]

so this rating completely ignores the fact that in 90 days a porsche will likely be driven far less then a civic/corrolla/etc (daily drivers)?

[5hift]

quality ratings after 90 days? are you kidding me?

Lets see if that Ford Fusion is still running like its Camry counter part after being daily driven for a 5 or more years.

[dino_martini]

Originally posted by 5hift
Lets see if that Ford Fusion is still running like its Camry counter part after being daily driven for a 5 or more years.

With proper maitence it would be I'm sure.

[Graham_A_M]

Originally posted by Hakkola


:rofl:

I love your logic. I guess Ford is really in 6th, because Ford owns Jaguar. Oh, and Lamborghini is owned by the same group that owns Volkswagen, which Porsche owns a part of. So from this information we can also extrapolate that Lamborghini and Volkswagen have the best reliability along with Porsche.

Logic FTW! :thumbsup:


:rofl: :rofl: :thumbsup: :D

[01RedDX]

.

[tomsweet1990]

i work on cars everyday.....especially components commonly looked at for quality control.....i find this astonishing....ford is absolute garbage....anything and everything we have to deal with on a day today basis is junk and more of a pain in the ass to deal with than pretty much every other manufacturer......43 miliion thumbs down to any ford product that i've ever seen and 43 the opposite to toyota and honda etc... when ford actually designs a car....with thought....;maybe that might happen...until then all their designers should be put to rest along with their engineers in the dream world they are living

[herragge]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


It's not that Toyota owns Lexus, Toyota IS Lexus.

Exactly. The Ford/Jaguar etc comments above are different than the relationship between Lexus and Toyota.

[Canmorite]

Ford:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7889/fordet6.png

Toyota:

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/1741/toyotabl8.png

[HondaRice]

so basically they admitted there quality sucked? so now ford cars are better? all these cars over night.

[HondaRice]

every lexus is pretty much a toyota the reason in japan they didnt rename them is japanese already knew that toyota is a quality name.

i would own a 1995 camry over a 2007 ford car in the same class.

[gpomp]

the thread title is misleading. the JD power charts show that lincoln is on top of toyota, not ford.

[ZorroAMG]

Lincoln = ford like lexus = toyota so by that logic, no, ford is not better than toyota...

[ringmaster]

Ford beats Toyota in ugliness ratings :thumbsdow

[gpomp]

Originally posted by ZorroAMG
Lincoln = ford like lexus = toyota so by that logic, no, ford is not better than toyota...
the author of that article clearly fails at logic.

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


It's not that Toyota owns Lexus, Toyota IS Lexus.

No, in North America, Toyota is not Lexus. Tell me, where in North America can I buy a LS460 with a Toyota badge?

Again, just because Lexus cars are built better than Toyota cars, it doesn't mean Toyota deserves to be higher on the list just because they build the cars. If you use that logic, you could state that Lexus is lower on the rankings, because there are more Toyota cars built, hence the average between Lexus and Toyota would give a worse score. Again, logic FTW!

Then again, since the S-Class scored the best for fewest problems, I guess we could say Smart is built just as well, because Smart IS Mercedes. :rolleyes:

FACT, Toyota and Lexus are treated as different entities on J.D power rankings. Fact, they are ranked differently. The two brands are NOT interchangeable on this list.

I do see the fault in the article, but anyone who says Toyota is second is clearly out to lunch. IF toyota and lexus sold the same numbers of cars in N.A and was to be considered 1 brand, they would be placed 4th, but that is not the case, and Toyota is tied for 6th.

[tentacles]

Toyota and Lexus are not nearly as badge engineered as the domestics are. e.g. for cars, almost all Lexus cars are RWD while all Toyota cars are FWD. Other than the ES/Camry, all the Lexus models are unique and use to be sold in the rest of the world as a unique Toyota model. I think some of the SUVs are similar but they're SUVs so who gives a fuck.

This isn't the same as a Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan/Lincoln MKZ, or GMC Yukon/Chevy Suburban/Cadillac Escalade, which are actually the EXACT SAME CARS with different body kits and badges.

[ricefarmer]

Originally posted by Hakkola


No, in North America, Toyota is not Lexus. Tell me, where in North America can I buy a LS460 with a Toyota badge?

Again, just because Lexus cars are built better than Toyota cars, it doesn't mean Toyota deserves to be higher on the list just because they build the cars. If you use that logic, you could state that Lexus is lower on the rankings, because there are more Toyota cars built, hence the average between Lexus and Toyota would give a worse score. Again, logic FTW!

Then again, since the S-Class scored the best for fewest problems, I guess we could say Smart is built just as well, because Smart IS Mercedes. :rolleyes:

FACT, Toyota and Lexus are treated as different entities on J.D power rankings. Fact, they are ranked differently. The two brands are NOT interchangeable on this list.

I do see the fault in the article, but anyone who says Toyota is second is clearly out to lunch. IF toyota and lexus sold the same numbers of cars in N.A and was to be considered 1 brand, they would be placed 4th, but that is not the case, and Toyota is tied for 6th.


I don't think you seem to get that in NA a Lexus is just a differently marketed Toyota. The engines, drivetrains, chasis, and components are mostly interchangable. Only for the purposes for these rankings are they treated as separate entities, just like Honda/Acura, Ford/Lincoln.

[heavyD]

People get so excited about the "initial quality" ratings which in the overall scheme of things means very little compared to long term reliability.

I care more that my transmission/engine will be problem free after a couple of years ownership. Not if the sun visor's came out of the factory door secured more tightly.

Hyundai has benefitted greatly from this "initial quality" survey because they do well and it gives people the impression that Hyundais are as reliable as Honda/Toyota's which isn't true. What that doesn't tell you is that Hyundais still don't age as well as some other manufacturers as they drop down to middle of the pack once the KM's start to accumulate.

I've driven my mother's Focus which is the same age as my SRT-4 and it squeeks & rattles and makes my Neon feel like a Lexus in comparison. There's no way you can convince me that Ford makes a better car than Honda or Toyota or even Hyundai. Never.

Long Term Raliability > Initial Quality

[heavyD]

Originally posted by Graham_A_M
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19073071/page/1/

I was BLOWN away while reading this, I didn't know such a huge company could do such a big corporate turnaround so quickly.

They haven't as it's a flawed survey. Ford and Mazda share their engines and chassises so how can you explain Ford as one of the best and Mazda the worst? Long term reliability is the only survey a car buyer should be interested in.

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by ricefarmer



I don't think you seem to get that in NA a Lexus is just a differently marketed Toyota. The engines, drivetrains, chasis, and components are mostly interchangable. Only for the purposes for these rankings are they treated as separate entities, just like Honda/Acura, Ford/Lincoln.

I don't think YOU get that I was disputing this argument.



Originally posted by Q-TIP
Well, if you go by that list, then Toyota is still in the number two spot, Lexus being toyota.

Also, the ratings for both brands are different, so your argument that the parts are "mostly interchangable" is moot. Because the rankings for the two are NOT interchangable.

Thanks for coming out. :thumbsup:

[Tik-Tok]

A better survey would be which plants put out the better intial quality.

You could have one plant putting out some great products and another putting out shit, under the same brand.

Though I agree initial quality is a dumb survey, I'd rather see the how many problems per 100 cars AFTER basic warranties have expired.

[Zephyr]

Originally posted by Hakkola


No, in North America, Toyota is not Lexus. Tell me, where in North America can I buy a LS460 with a Toyota badge?


Yep! You can't even buy a LS460 anywhere in the world that's badged as a Toyota. Lexus and Toyota are two different brands worldwide now, even in the homeland of Japan. Only similarties you really see now is the new camry and the new ES350, that's it. Toyota is just a parent company, but Lexus now functions on their own.

[Mitsu3000gt]

JD Power and Associates quality ratings are a joke, in my opinion.

Reliability in 90 days means almost nothing, and I think it's up to the owners to provide the information to JD Power and Associates. Furthermore, if a differential blows on a Caddy, it's one problem. If a headlight goes on a Mercedes, it's one problem.

I think this is a useless test because the severity of the problems are not measured, and the data is provided by the owners if I remember correctly.

I would like to see a comparison of resale value, and long term reliability and then see where everyone ranks. I don't even think we need a chart for that one.

[01RedDX]

.

[Zephyr]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


There are N. American Lexus that still wear a Toyota badge in Japan, the Landcruiser being one of them.

Yes, Lexus is a distinct brand in Japan now, but they only have half of the NA models badged that way. That means the rest are still Toyotas.

2008 they are full rebadged. such as the RX series. landcruiser i believe was a toyota model to begin with...

[Jeff Lange]

Originally posted by Zephyr


2008 they are full rebadged. such as the RX series. landcruiser i believe was a toyota model to begin with...

Land Cruiser is still sold in the USA, Lexus LX470 is essentially the same vehicle for all intents and purposes.

The Lexus LX470 is sold as the Toyota Land Cruiser Cygnus in Japan.

Lexus RX350/400h are still sold as the Toyota Harrier in Japan.

Lexus GX470 is sold in Japan as the Toyota Land Cruiser Prado.

Just recently the Lexus brand has taken off in Japan though, the Celsior is now the Lexus LS in Japan, like is has been here since 89.

The Altezza is now the IS, like it's been here and worldwide since 98.

The Aristo is now the GS, like it's been here since 1992.

The Soarer is now the SC, like it's been here since 1992.

So yes, in Japan there is Lexus now, but it's pretty recent, and still quite a few North American Lexus models are still sold as Toyotas in Japan.

In any case, almost all Lexus models are manufactured in Japan still, and as such, generally speaking they have better quality than their North-American produced counterparts, the same thing happens with Toyota models, and I think if you compared Toyota models built in North America versus Toyota models built in Japan, you'd see a similar split in quality ratings, and that North American build Toyotas bring down the Toyota brand rating.

So yes, I believe Lexus models are better built, but in Canada at least, Lexus and Toyota are the same company, parts and cars come from the same place, many parts are the exact same between Toyotas and Lexus models.

Bah, whatever though, if you're going to simply compare "brands" then leave Lexus and Toyota separate, if you're going to compare manufacturers, then Toyota and Lexus would go under the same umbrella, but that being said, so would some other manufacturers. that have a similar split between brands.

I digress.

[arian_ma]

Originally posted by Hakkola


:rofl:

I love your logic. I guess Ford is really in 6th, because Ford owns Jaguar. Oh, and Lamborghini is owned by the same group that owns Volkswagen, which Porsche owns a part of. So from this information we can also extrapolate that Lamborghini and Volkswagen have the best reliability along with Porsche.

Logic FTW! :thumbsup:

Hahaha dude come on, it IS logical to assume Toyota is #2
:rofl:

Also, when you say the parts are not interchangeable, well, I think these results are pretty fucking retarded results. A Porsche 911 will be driven FAR less in the first 90 days of ownership than a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla, also, the people that drive the Porsches are far more mechanically inclined, and know not to do certain things that will destroy their car, as would most Lexus people I would assume, as opposed to the 90 year old asians that drive their Corollas into pillars 4 times a week.

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by arian_ma


Hahaha dude come on, it IS logical to assume Toyota is #2
:rofl:

Also, when you say the parts are not interchangeable, well, I think these results are pretty fucking retarded results. A Porsche 911 will be driven FAR less in the first 90 days of ownership than a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla, also, the people that drive the Porsches are far more mechanically inclined, and know not to do certain things that will destroy their car, as would most Lexus people I would assume, as opposed to the 90 year old asians that drive their Corollas into pillars 4 times a week.

I completely agree, and I think these rankings don't give a very accurate representation of reliability, I have always thought the J.D rankings were a little off, but people who like the brands at the top always swear by the rankings, and now that things are changed so have attitudes towards the rankings. :rofl:


Originally posted by Jeff Lange


Bah, whatever though, if you're going to simply compare "brands" then leave Lexus and Toyota separate, if you're going to compare manufacturers, then Toyota and Lexus would go under the same umbrella, but that being said, so would some other manufacturers. that have a similar split between brands.

I digress.



Originally posted by Hakkola

I do see the fault in the article, but anyone who says Toyota is second is clearly out to lunch. IF toyota and lexus sold the same numbers of cars in N.A and was to be considered 1 brand, they would be placed 4th, but that is not the case, and Toyota is tied for 6th.


So who cares, even if they ARE considered the same brand, Toyota would NOT be second.

[Jeff Lange]

Originally posted by Hakkola
So who cares, even if they ARE considered the same brand, Toyota would NOT be second.

That's what I was saying...

If you group Toyota and Lexus together, you'd group other brands together as well, and the entire list would look completely different. You either compare brands or manufacturers, can't simply say Toyota is second because Lexus is.

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by Jeff Lange


That's what I was saying...

If you group Toyota and Lexus together, you'd group other brands together as well, and the entire list would look completely different. You either compare brands or manufacturers, can't simply say Toyota is second because Lexus is.

That is exactly what you were saying, I have no idea why I posted that. :rofl:

[TNation]

seriously, we all know Toyota and Honda are awesome brands which have great reliability. Its a joke that Mercedes is in the top 5, because in the long term reliability, Mercedes has a million problems and is COMPLETELY unreliable.

[ZorroAMG]

Yeah your mercedes is in the shop a LOT huh? Or wait...do you not own one? What? Oh that's what your friend's uncle's sister said? Cool....yeah mercedes are shit.

LMAO

Non-first-hand knowledge FTMFL.

[Graham_A_M]

Originally posted by TNation
seriously, we all know Toyota and Honda are awesome brands which have great reliability. Its a joke that Mercedes is in the top 5, because in the long term reliability, Mercedes has a million problems and is COMPLETELY unreliable.

:rofl: Thats funny, everybody I know or met over the years that has a Benz, has but absolutely nothing good things to say about them. The only problem I've ever heard about a new Benz is the license plate light burnt out on his S500, only to have a notifcation in the message center telling him that. :thumbsup:

[Hakkola]

Original Post Removed. (Please read the Forum Rules and Terms of Use (http://forums.beyond.ca/articles.php?action=data&item=1) before posting again, or risk getting banned).

[ZorroAMG]

Agreed...

Graham, I assume you meant to say "absolutely nothing BUT good things to say.." :)

[Graham_A_M]

^ bingo. :thumbsup:

[Alpine Autowerks]

Originally posted by Graham_A_M
I honestly wonder where some of these souces are getting their info from. I've seen numerous stats stating Porsche & Mercedes as the two of the three most problematic manufacturers,


the whole JD Power has a deep flaw in that the buyers are not constant, a purchaser of a BMW tends to have a different set of expectations than say a Jeep owner.
It is also skewed by service department and warranty policies. eg. when Lexus first started they would call the owner before the survey period begins and ask if the car was OK ..if there was anything they would pick up the car, fix the problem wash, refuel and return the car. If the customer surveyed later by JD they did not remember the problem because they were not inconvenienced by the problem and bingo Lexus = Perfection.

[Hakkola]

LOL, what did I post? :rofl:

[Q-TIP]

Originally posted by Hakkola


Also, the ratings for both brands are different, so your argument that the parts are "mostly interchangable" is moot. Because the rankings for the two are NOT interchangable.

Thanks for coming out. :thumbsup:

I never argued that the part interchangability allowed for the rankings to be interchanged as well. I was simply pointing out in an indirect way that the JD power initial quality survey is garbage. It is a generally subjective battery of tests and inspections that allow for certain car makers to get an overall better rating than they would normally.

fit and finish in my honda is far superior to anything i have ever encountered any korean car after 6 years, though some korean cars seem super nice on the lot. that being said...i drive one of the "ugly" 2008 F-350's, and I have to say that the fit, finish and materials in that truck are nicer than those in my RX330. That being said it is the king ranch and it should be nice for the money, but it just shows you how a car when new can feel nicer than it is.