P.Eng + CFA, worth pursing?

[Super_Geo]

Was hoping that there were some CFAs on here who could help shed some light on a career shift I'm considering.

I graduated last May and began working in July as a project engineer. I took a pretty technical degree (engineering physics, mechanical option) and decided early on that I never wanted a technical engineering job where I was crunching equations all day... so when I saw job postings for project engineering I jumped at the oppertunity. A year in, I still think it was the right decision. What I'm doing right now is a healthy mix between the project management side (procurement, scheduling, cost control, logistics, construction, etc) and design work.

Lately, however, I've realized that I don't want to be an engineer 10 (hell, maybe even 5) years down the road. I've been drawn more and more towards finance. I was considering jumping to investment banking around Christmas when an oppertunity-of-sorts came up along that alley, but didn't pull the trigger.

A friend of mine who I graduated with last year (he took mechanical engineering) is thinking of getting a CFA, and the more I've thought about it the more I think that it is closer to what I want to be doing. So if I write the Level I in December (which means I'd have to start studying pretty soon), and assuming that I pass all of the tests on the first try, that means I should be all clear to getting work experience towards the CFA at the same time as I complete the requirements for my P.Eng and PMP (project management professional) designations.

What kinds of doors would this open? I suppose I could (eventually) do IPOs or mergers for oil/gas companies? Is there a lot of demand for someone with a P.Eng and a CFA? Any ideas on salary expectations (as in: would I be taking a significant pay cut when I first make the shift from engineering to finance)? I would really apprechiate it if anyone who went through the paces of getting their CFA (or anyone who's familiar with the industry) could chime in on what the field is like for someone in my position.

Thanks!

[liquid1010]

I just did my L1 for the CFA, and will get my marks for the exam in the middle of June. The exams are tough, and you definitely need to be willing to put in the time neccesary. Right now I have my B.A. in Arts, and was originally looking into Marketing, but I caught the Finance Bug like you did.

Right now I'm looking at getting into Finance position, and hopefully I can find something soon. The CFA will open a lot of doors for you, especially considering you have an engineering undergrad.

[B17a]

P.Eng CFA is a great combo, especially in this town. You will have no shortage of employment opportunities. However, the exams will kill you so make sure you know exactly what you are getting into, its at least a 3 year commitment. 3 years assuming you pass 1-2-3 in a row, a relatively rare accomplishment.

[JGerke]

as an engineer, you have the technical aptitude to pass the CFA. Obviously, L1 will give you a good idea of how hard it is. You can also take a look at what is covered on the CFA site. Coming from a finance (economics) background (not garbage marketing, this is worse that fine arts) L1 has all been covered in the first couple years of uni. Study lots! CFA or MBA with a P. Eng will help you dominate in life!

[liquid1010]

Originally posted by JGerke
Coming from a finance (economics) background (not garbage marketing, this is worse that fine arts) L1 has all been covered in the first couple years of uni.
Comments like that are always appreciated! :rolleyes:

As for the comment that most of the material has been covered in your undergrad; depending on your course selection, that is true. The Econ was covered by Econ 201,203, and 303 classes at UofC, and the Quant is basically just more in-depth stats. The part that wasn't covered for me was the Corporate Finance sections, and a small bit on Financial Statement Analysis.

There is a lot of material for the L1 exam. It's not deadly tough material, but just a lot of it.

[Super_Geo]

Thanks for the advice guys! Well, got the Kaplan study guide... those fuckers are expensive eh! Came to around $1000?!

I'd still really like to talk to someone who is CFA to get some deeper insight into the industry. If that's you, please send me a PM... lunch is on me!

[Si_FlyGuy]

Super Geo,

I've got a friend who's a CA, CFA that I've been talking to a lot because I'm thinking of going after the CFA soon also. I'll email him to see if he's free. From what I gather, he doesn't really use his CFA in the O&G industry.

My problem is that I don't know if I want to switch industries to get the 4 years of experience.

[Si_FlyGuy]

Originally posted by JGerke
Coming from a finance (economics) background (not garbage marketing, this is worse that fine arts)

The only garbage is your pompous attitude. No...I'm not a marketing grad.

[JGerke]

yep, accounting courses and economics of equity markets covered the rest of the stuff on there that wasn't covered by basic econ courses. Sorry about the hating on marketing...I have just lived with people in the program and have found it to be useless/a joke(from what i've seen)! The one thing I have heard is tough with the exams is they love to throw in stuff that is extremely obscure or was not expected to be on the test. You also do not need a very hihg grade to pass...something like 45? last year

[B17a]

Originally posted by JGerke
yep, accounting courses and economics of equity markets covered the rest of the stuff on there that wasn't covered by basic econ courses. Sorry about the hating on marketing...I have just lived with people in the program and have found it to be useless/a joke(from what i've seen)! The one thing I have heard is tough with the exams is they love to throw in stuff that is extremely obscure or was not expected to be on the test. You also do not need a very hihg grade to pass...something like 45? last year

That's teh pass rate, not the pass grade. They don't give you the marks, but give you ranges on each section of the exam, ie) <50%, 50-70%, and >70%. When I wrote L1 a few years back I think a pass would have been in the 70% range.

[liquid1010]

Originally posted by B17a


That's teh pass rate, not the pass grade. They don't give you the marks, but give you ranges on each section of the exam, ie) &lt;50%, 50-70%, and &gt;70%. When I wrote L1 a few years back I think a pass would have been in the 70% range.

Exactly. The exam is marked on a curve, although the CFA institute does not like to mention much about the grading. The exam requires usually around a 70% to pass, which is doable, but tough.

I'm basically going crazy waiting to get my exam marks back :drama:

[JGerke]

meh...my bad I guess.

[CLiVE]

Originally posted by Super_Geo


What kinds of doors would this open? I suppose I could (eventually) do IPOs or mergers for oil/gas companies? Is there a lot of demand for someone with a P.Eng and a CFA?

If I were you I would first clearly define your goals of where you want to be in 5-10 years. What position, responsibilities, etc. It is tough to meet your goals if you don't have any. I chose the MBA route over the CFA because personally I did not want to get stuck in that 'analyst rut'. A P.Eng/MBA is also a good combo. It all depends on where you want to end up.

[l/l/rX]

does anyone have a link to a CFA website?

the only website i know of is cfainstitute.org or something some school in london. and they say you need 4 years of school or 2 yrs of work in the field and 2 years of school.

i would really like some more information about this.

[B17a]

http://www.calgarycfasociety.com/

This should help

[s2k_boi]

^^ that would be your website. They have a phone number / email contact on the website for more info as well. **(referring to the post that above this one now)

[three.eighteen.]

Originally posted by JGerke
Coming from a finance (economics) background (not garbage marketing, this is worse that fine arts) L1 has all been covered in the first couple years of uni.

...so you don't actually have a BComm in Finance do you...took the "garbage" route and went for Econ instead?

...idiot :rolleyes:

[liquid1010]

Originally posted by three.eighteen.


...so you don't actually have a BComm in Finance do you...took the &quot;garbage&quot; route and went for Econ instead?

...idiot :rolleyes:

LOL... very true.

This is my point exactly. Who cares what degree you have, as long as you enjoyed it, and feel you've grown from it. If it helps you in your career (whatever that is), who cares. I'm a firm believer that education is it's own reward.

As for the original topic creator, if you have any questions about the CFA... feel free to PM me. I have the CFA texts and the Schweser notes for L1.

[pinoyhero]

Great combo designation, but as i'm sure you've heard its not a walk in the park. If crunching numbers isn't your thing then you may want to reconsider. The i-banking/researach gig is exactly that. Although you can make mad cash, you might want to talk some more to those who have pursued the career and faced the 100 hour work weeks.

[CLiVE]

Originally posted by pinoyhero
The i-banking/researach gig is exactly that. Although you can make mad cash, you might want to talk some more to those who have pursued the career and faced the 100 hour work weeks.

The cash isn't even that great when you factor in the number of hours put in. Read this book http://ca-reviews.blogspot.com/2007/05/bank-david-bledin.html
to put the i-banking world in perspective. haha. Great read.

[JGerke]

Originally posted by three.eighteen.


...so you don't actually have a BComm in Finance do you...took the &quot;garbage&quot; route and went for Econ instead?

...idiot :rolleyes:

umm ya...nice try..B. Comm in finance is exactly what I have

[three.eighteen.]

my bad, i considered a concentration in finance, but i really just can't see myself doing finance related work as a career...oh btw, I'm taking a concentration in marketing, take your free shot ;)

[JGerke]

i've had my fun...dont get me wrong, some marketers go on to great things, but its all about how creative and dedicated you are. Most people have neither from MY experiences! Getting back on topic, did that $1000 pay for your one time expense to the CFA as well or just books???

[in*10*se]

imo: P.eng + MBA would be a much better route.

[urban.one]

Depends what path you want to take in your career.

But also think about this.

The MBA route will mean you give up about 2 years of salary.

An MBA will cost you say $25k to $50k or higher depending where you go to school. If you go away to school factor in the extra living expenses for those 2 years especially if your wife/kids stay here and you move to another city.

I dont know what you make now but lets be conservative and say $125k all-in (im being conservative.) So your going to give up $250k in salary and have anywhere from $25k to $100k in expenses.

The CFA route will cost you maybe $10k in fees and materials. And no salary given up.

And depending the career path you chose, you might have take the CFA after the MBA as well.

Something to think about...


Originally posted by in*10*se
imo: P.eng + MBA would be a much better route.

[rc2002]

Actually the MBA route doesn't require you to give up salary. A friend of mine is taking his MBA while he works full time in engineering. And taking an MBA in Calgary doesn't even cost close to $25-50k.

[CLiVE]

Originally posted by richardchan2002
Actually the MBA route doesn't require you to give up salary. A friend of mine is taking his MBA while he works full time in engineering. And taking an MBA in Calgary doesn't even cost close to $25-50k.

Correct. A MBA in Calgary will run about $20K. You can do the program part time while you are working. Your organization also may be willing to cover some of the cost. Mine has been paid for in full by my company.

[pinoyhero]

Originally posted by CLiVE


The cash isn't even that great when you factor in the number of hours put in. Read this book http://ca-reviews.blogspot.com/2007/05/bank-david-bledin.html
to put the i-banking world in perspective. haha. Great read.

You can probably expect that after bonus you will pull down $120K in year one and it only gets better from there ... its that good.

[CLiVE]

Originally posted by pinoyhero


You can probably expect that after bonus you will pull down $120K in year one and it only gets better from there ... its that good.

A few years solid work experience in the O&G industry and you can easily get to the same level. Without the 'torture' of i-banking...And it won't require 100 hour work weeks.

[triver525]

So can anyone give any suggestions of the types of opportunities that might be available with a P.Eng. + MBA? I'm starting the MBA program in the fall and I've heard that there are a ton of opportunities out there but I've never actually heard anything specific. Best I've heard is you work for an O&G owner doing strategic planning and higher level project planning work or you work in the finance/investment field. What else is out there?

[Pacman]

Hey Super_Geo.....

So how did things turn out? My wife is a P.Eng and just registered for the level 1 CFA last night.

Do you have any study books etc that you are selling?

Pacman

[suranga]

This is funny; a colleague of mine (Engineer) is writing his L1 CFA exam this June. Seems a lot of young engineers, me included, are looking at career change options down the line.

[rc2002]

Just writing the tests and passing them doesn't mean anything. You don't get your CFA designation until you have enough direct experience accumulated. It's the same as a lateral move in your career.

If you're in engineering and you do an MBA, they complement each other so it's a lot more useful IMO.

[bigboom]

Originally posted by richardchan2002
Just writing the tests and passing them doesn't mean anything. You don't get your CFA designation until you have enough direct experience accumulated. It's the same as a lateral move in your career.

If you're in engineering and you do an MBA, they complement each other so it's a lot more useful IMO.

exactly, unless you're direction is to go into finance roles ie. ibanking, equity research a CFA is going to quite literally be useless to you.

now that has been said, i know some research associates, not even analysts who pull in $150k but they also work 70 hour work weeks. a lot of the compensation is bonus driven, so you would most likely start with a base salary of $80kish and then the rest will be off of a bonus based on quarterly performance.

and clive is right, you put in a good 6-7 years in O&G you could be making $110k-$120K without having to work like a madman.

[spyce]

Originally posted by bigboom


exactly, unless you're direction is to go into finance roles ie. ibanking, equity research a CFA is going to quite literally be useless to you.

now that has been said, i know some research associates, not even analysts who pull in $150k but they also work 70 hour work weeks. a lot of the compensation is bonus driven, so you would most likely start with a base salary of $80kish and then the rest will be off of a bonus based on quarterly performance.

and clive is right, you put in a good 6-7 years in O&amp;G you could be making $110k-$120K without having to work like a madman.

Well of course. For the most part its gradually working your way up the ladder that will get you that 120k after the 6-7 years of work in the O&G industry. And yes, likely not doing madman work either.

IBanking/Research does require a lot of committment out of an individual. And hence, for the most part, they are compensated pretty well just starting out as an analyst. You have to want to do it to be able to succeed in it. So if you want that 120k a year then you work more than those who want to work 6-7 years before they make 120k.
And for the most part the Ibanking route opens a lot of doors for you and you get exposed to a lot more than you would at a lot of other jobs. Most people who go into banking dont stick with it past becoming a director, and sometimes even an associate. Most eventually branch off into running a hedge fund. Or at least thats the goal.

This of course is just my opinion though since its the area I hope to be in once I graduate in December.

Anyways, whos writing L1 in June with me?

[CLiVE]

Originally posted by spyce


Most people who go into banking dont stick with it past becoming a director, and sometimes even an associate.

Correction, most burn out in less than 2 years.....
Good luck.

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by CLiVE


Correction, most burn out in less than 2 years.....
Good luck.


Whats the average age of most of these analysts?

Where do they go after they've spent their 2 years in it and burned out?

[bigboom]

Originally posted by broken_legs



Whats the average age of most of these analysts?

Where do they go after they've spent their 2 years in it and burned out?

i wouldnt say they burn out...a lot of them start associates and then make it to analyst and they will stay for a while until most of them have families and need more suitable work hours or they stay. in fact i dont know of any yet that have left, most of the ones that arent in the industry anymore have been let go. its a ruthless job...if you dont perform you are let go, easy as that.

[spyce]

Originally posted by bigboom


i wouldnt say they burn out...a lot of them start associates and then make it to analyst and they will stay for a while until most of them have families and need more suitable work hours or they stay. in fact i dont know of any yet that have left, most of the ones that arent in the industry anymore have been let go. its a ruthless job...if you dont perform you are let go, easy as that.

Analysts --> Associates :)

But yes you pretty much sum'd it up. Its not really the 'burning out' but more that they realize its not their lifestyle. It is pretty tough on individuals trying to start a family and such, and usually by that time they are close to or near the end of the associate part of the 'career'.

The analyst age range is usually low to mid 20's. Seeing as how for the most part its a two year title..3 at most. And then associates are mid 20's to low 30's as there is a branch off for MBA/CFA

[Celica TVS3]

I'm an associate at one of the shops in town. As indicated above, there is a lot of turn-over. The hours are long, but usually pretty busy. For example, I was at my desk at 5:30 am and left at 7:00ish pm. I am always there at 5:30, I usually leave early on Friday’s (4:00ish), take Saturdays off and come in for a few hours on Sunday. That alone is enough to grind on most people, even if you don't mind the hours, girlfriends/wives... do not like it.

I read a comment about most people don't make it to director. Most people leave before transitioning from the analyst (CF) roll or the associate roll (research). And most definitely do not start their own hedge funds. Opportunities come up and people make work/life balance decisions. Experience on the sell side of the street gives people pretty good exposure. You get the modelling skills, presentation skills and meet/build relationships with a lot of CEO's, so when it comes time to leave there is a lot on the table. I would say a lot go to the buy-side as analysts, associate portfolio managers, retail sales, investor relations, corporate business development, a finance roll, institutional sales…

As far as money, it’s pretty good relative to what most people make (less so on an hourly basis). But it does give you the chance to make/bank decent money. There aren’t many white-collar jobs out there that allow 20-25 year-olds to make 100 – 200k+ per year after only a year or two o the job. (or 1mm+ if you stay long enough and are good at what you do). But it’s not a glamour job, the egos are pretty big, and it’s 90% monkey work.

As far as qualifications, most resumes come in with 3.5+ GPAs, Bcomms, MBAs, CGAs, multiple levels of the CFA complete. But what at the entry level, you need to have drive, good excel skills and be presentable. After all investment banking is sales with a lot of grunt work backing it up.

[bigboom]

Originally posted by spyce


Analysts --&gt; Associates :)




actually it depends...if you are talking i-banking associates are higher than analysts. if you are talking research analysts are higher than associates. most of the talk has been surrounding research.