twin charged?

[tsuga]

i was talkin to one of my friends about his "awsome" cobolt ss
and his says hes gonna twin charge it by adding a turbo and using the stock supercharger on it. but told i him it couldnt work

but im just woundering could that really work?

[QuasarCav]

Yes,

I believe there is a member on here with a twin charged Sunfire.

[KRyn]

Yes it has been done, there is some one on the site with a twin charged J body. Making something like 245whp or something.
But yes you can do this.

[JRSC00LUDE]

You can do anything with research and money. Twin-charged has been done before, maybe not on a cobalt yet but it's been done.


Edit - we all think the same but type at different speeds.....

[GQBalla]

i think theres been a few twin charged cobalts.

look for freebs (buddy with the twin charged sunfire)

and yeah its totally possible.

didnt the thunderbird or something come factory twin charged?

[Revhard]

It can be done, but doesn't present any more power than a good turbo set-up would. It's a big hassle, with the only gain being low-end power.
It's always interesting to see it done though.
There was a twin-charged Mini cooper in a magazine year or so back, neato.

[ca18det240sx]

theres a guy on here with an ae86 that he had twincharged. 4agze running the supercharger on an ac-pump type electronic engagement setup. He could disable the supercharger by the flip of a switch. also was running 20 psi thru that beotch.

[sneek]

I think VW has something coming out soon that is twincharged. I am not sure if Canada will ever see it though.

[Go4Long]

yes...freebs pulled it off and ended up running SLOWER than your average turbo charged J-Body...so it's possible but a complete waste of time...

[bspot]

Yeah there was at least one twin charged Cobalt SS, the the price tag on doing it was horrendous. If you want to make a Cobalt really fast (anything better than high 13's) you're better off just to rip off the supercharger, sell it, and buy a turbo.

[xrayvsn]

Originally posted by bspot
Yeah there was at least one twin charged Cobalt SS, the the price tag on doing it was horrendous. If you want to make a Cobalt really fast (anything better than high 13's) you're better off just to sell it, and buy a SRT4.

There, fixed that for you. :D

[Tetsugen]

Audi did it for their lemans car a few years back.

MR2's had kits from HKS.

A company did it also for a STi.

The only gains from having a twin charge (1 Supercharger and 2 turbos) would be power all through out the band, using the superchargers to spool the turbos.

A compound charge (1 turbo, 1 supercharger) would be the same, except the price really just wouldn't justify the gains. A lot of custom work has to be done.

[bspot]

Originally posted by xrayvsn


There, fixed that for you. :D

Lol... I should have said if you were dead set on making a cobalt fast, get a turbo. For sure an SRT-4 is a much cheaper, better bet for getting in the 13's.

[Noremac]

Twincharging is whenever there is more than one form of forced induction in the system. Compound charging is when one turbo/supercharger blows into the other one and the allready compressed air is compressed again. Both of these examples have nothing to do with the number of turbo/superchargers in the system other than the necessity of haveing more than one.

...Cameron



Originally posted by Tetsugen
Audi did it for their lemans car a few years back.

MR2's had kits from HKS.

A company did it also for a STi.

The only gains from having a twin charge (1 Supercharger and 2 turbos) would be power all through out the band, using the superchargers to spool the turbos.

A compound charge (1 turbo, 1 supercharger) would be the same, except the price really just wouldn't justify the gains. A lot of custom work has to be done.

[witte reus]

Originally posted by ca18det240sx
theres a guy on here with an ae86 that he had twincharged. 4agze running the supercharger on an ac-pump type electronic engagement setup. He could disable the supercharger by the flip of a switch. also was running 20 psi thru that beotch.

I'm doing the same thing aws! But not on an AE86 but on a '93 Corolla.
Using Megasquirt to control fuel and spark.

Greetings from the Netherlands!!

[A2VR6]

Originally posted by sneek
I think VW has something coming out soon that is twincharged. I am not sure if Canada will ever see it though.

thats correct, being sold currently in europe right now as the Golf GT. Apparently they are currently testing the engine on a few MKV golfs in California, so we may see it!

heres a link on some info on the engine itself... 1.4L making 170hp.



http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/volkswagen_news/printer_1496.shtml

[Revhard]

Originally posted by A2VR6


thats correct, being sold currently in europe right now as the Golf GT. Apparently they are currently testing the engine on a few MKV golfs in California, so we may see it!

heres a link on some info on the engine itself... 1.4L making 170hp.



http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/volkswagen_news/printer_1496.shtml


That's about the same hp/displacement as the first gen s2000, with alot of forced induction.

[A2VR6]

Originally posted by Revhard



That's about the same hp/displacement as the first gen s2000, with alot of forced induction.

Yep, but the big thing in my opinion is the torque numbers... thats the real advantage here.

[bspot]

Originally posted by A2VR6


Yep, but the big thing in my opinion is the torque numbers... thats the real advantage here.

And a power curve that doesn't look like a chart of Bre-x stock price.

[Freebs]

yea i have this set up on my car... A T3/T4E 63 trim with a stage 3 turbine turbo feeding into the supercharger... big enough that with out the s/c'er i would have HUGE!! turbo lag with a 2.4L engine with all stock internals/head, considering they rate it good to 500hp

and to the one who said i ran slower then a stock sunfire.. thanks but i wasnt even tuned yet.. i was only tuned for 1 week before i was hit by a drunk driver in saskatoon... and wrote the car off... i got the new one set up but again its needing to be tuned...

the blue one was tuned to 240whp @7psi(into the engine) and i could keep up to my neighbours 03 SVT mustang (i believe it was all stock) this time im going to inch it up a bit to 250whp and call it a day.... for now


for thoughs who say its useless or pointless i dont know where your coming from with that unless you drive a car with a V8 where you have huge low end torque any way, but on a 4cyl its harder to get low and high end power with out sacrificing one of the other... your not going to make more power with it but your power curve is going to be way different then that of turbo or supercharger only.. it was like night and day with this set up compaired to my s/c'ed only set up.. that and because my s/c'er can not be intercooled i would get heat soak very quickly then it felt like i have no power at all.. now it doesnt matter even in the 40+ degree weather i was in in saskatoon last week it never was effected in a way that it was with the s/c'er only

small turbo - good low end but dies off in the top end
big turbo - turbo lag but good top end
supercharger - good low end but die up top

turbo into supercharger... instant boost (litterly, i had it at 10psi playing around and would be fully boosted by 1700-1800rpm) and you can get away with a much bigger turbo for good top end.. im looking for my dyno sheet from the blue car to post up but i made 230whp at around 3600-3700rpm then peaked out to 240whp @ 6800rpm and that was all with a s/c'er pulley 2 sizes bigger the stock(3.0")... i put the stock pulley back on (2.8") and i was hitting almost peak hp around 3000rpm.. it was just to hard for the tires to hold so once i get my tracktion figured out ill go back to the stock pulley


any way i think its a fun way to boost a car... even my dad who has a lingenfelter TT ZO6 and a turbo gnx, likes to rip around in my car saying its a fun car to drive with it set up like this... i know i wasnt disapointed when it was all tuned and finished

[Idratherbsidewayz]

Originally posted by bspot


And a power curve that doesn't look like a chart of Bre-x stock price.

I LOLed... :rofl: :rofl:

[eur0]

Originally posted by ca18det240sx
theres a guy on here with an ae86 that he had twincharged. 4agze running the supercharger on an ac-pump type electronic engagement setup. He could disable the supercharger by the flip of a switch. also was running 20 psi thru that beotch.

Not sure if its the same guy but I also know a buddy who had the same setup (not sure if he sold it or not). It was an ae86 gt-s with a super/turbo charger (ironically his username is twincharged). In short, the car hauled.

[Noremac]

The most efficient way to have a twincharged setup is to have the supercharger go offline as soon as the turbo has reached an appreciatable amount of boost or when iat start to get excessive. You can do this with a pressure comparison valve or with an electronic clutch attached to a 12v relay (with standalone for seamless operation, or a switch for manual operation).

...Cameron

[Freebs]

Originally posted by Noremac
The most efficient way to have a twincharged setup is to have the supercharger go offline as soon as the turbo has reached an appreciatable amount of boost or when iat start to get excessive. You can do this with a pressure comparison valve or with an electronic clutch attached to a 12v relay (with standalone for seamless operation, or a switch for manual operation).

...Cameron


that is true to a point.. but if your S/c'er can still flow enough air for the power your going for its alot easier just to keep it going.. and being that most superchargers used in these aplications are Roots which are positive displacement units you can still get away with keeping it going (boosting) up top as well and not have any real major down fall with it like this (not that your average daily driven car would notice)... My intake temps were actually slightly lower after i put the turbo on, compaired to when i just had the s/c'er on... not much but still lower, not sure if its beacuse i could get the filter out of the engine bay now and into on coming cold air or if the intercooler cools it down just that slight bit more before it hits my s/c'er where the sensor is..

I have thought about going to a set up where the s/c'er cuts out up top.. but the guy who tuned my car said he couldnt see any problems with it staying on.. for the power levels im going for any way...

[Noremac]

At your power and boost level it matters, but not as much as if you were trying to make 400whp. Iat skyrockets in an exponential form when there is a dual thermal load . If you integrated an alcohol or water injection system into your setup you would notice an increase in efficiency for sure. If a system was designed where the supercharger came offline when the turbo was nice and spooled and water/alcohol injection was used it would be a much much more efficient and powerful setup.

...Cameron

[Freebs]

Originally posted by Noremac
At your power and boost level it matters, but not as much as if you were trying to make 400whp. Iat skyrockets in an exponential form when there is a dual thermal load . If you integrated an alcohol or water injection system into your setup you would notice an increase in efficiency for sure. If a system was designed where the supercharger came offline when the turbo was nice and spooled and water/alcohol injection was used it would be a much much more efficient and powerful setup.

...Cameron

yea thats what i was getting at.. im sure i would gain something small by taking the s/c'er out of the equation in the top end.. but not enough that i would notice on a daily driven car that see's maybe 2 track nights a year..
As for alcohol injection.. i have had it on the car ever since i was boosted way back with just the Supercharger 3yrs ago... got the idea from my dads gnx... and since the smart people at GM made my supercharger kit a 1 peice unit i can not intercool it at all so the alky is my cooling for the s/c'er...
as for temps... my intake temps are the same as a few other guys with the same engine with turbo only... and lower then the guys with the same engine but the s/c'er only.. so its not bad for now but that was with 240whp.. and im going up to 250whp now which shouldnt do to much to the temps

[a social dsease]

Nissan March Super Turbo

pretty cool!

http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_2216/article.html

[jonnycat]

Originally posted by A2VR6


thats correct, being sold currently in europe right now as the Golf GT. Apparently they are currently testing the engine on a few MKV golfs in California, so we may see it!

heres a link on some info on the engine itself... 1.4L making 170hp.



http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/volkswagen_news/printer_1496.shtml '

Thery are putting it in the new small SUV too, but it's not North American bound

[Revhard]

I agree it gives a broad torque curve, but without alcohol, the inlet temps would be quite high.
Also, stroking the motor may yield better results overall.
If you are talking Eaton s/c'ers, then yes. Twin screws are
much more efficient, and have lots of top end, and decent bottom-end.
It all depends what you are after. A twin-charged, alcohol car is not the simplest approach to power, but for a 4cyl, it seems to help.
I would think that 240whp is an extremely mild set-up, and could likely be had with just alcohol on a cobalt, since most will make 200 stock.
Ideal would be alot of boost on the s/c to get the bottom-end, and a fairly large turbo to get the top end.
3-350whp would be seen on a cobalt I would think quite easily like this.
It doesn't make any sense to do mild boost on the s/c and a smaller turbo.

[Freebs]

Originally posted by Revhard
I agree it gives a broad torque curve, but without alcohol, the inlet temps would be quite high.
Also, stroking the motor may yield better results overall.
If you are talking Eaton s/c'ers, then yes. Twin screws are
much more efficient, and have lots of top end, and decent bottom-end.
It all depends what you are after. A twin-charged, alcohol car is not the simplest approach to power, but for a 4cyl, it seems to help.
I would think that 240whp is an extremely mild set-up, and could likely be had with just alcohol on a cobalt, since most will make 200 stock.
Ideal would be alot of boost on the s/c to get the bottom-end, and a fairly large turbo to get the top end.
3-350whp would be seen on a cobalt I would think quite easily like this.
It doesn't make any sense to do mild boost on the s/c and a smaller turbo.


agreed.. that is why i have a T3/T4E 63 trim with a stage 3 turbine... i believe they rate it good to 500hp... and for a 2.4L 4cyl engine like mine thats pretty big with all stock internals, there would be no way i could spool it to 10psi @ 1800rpm with out the s/c'er spooling it up.. then i have my alcohol spraying just before my supercharger.. i will be shooting for the 350-370whp next summer when i drop the built up engine in though..
as for the s/c'er, the stock 2.8" pulley gave me about 5psi of boost (peaked at 6psi), with this set up i go slightly bigger pulley (3.0") which would probably give me about 3-4psi with just the supercharger.. its not just adding up the two psi levels to get your out come but you can see most of my boosting is done at the turbo, then the supercharger just gives it alittle kick going into the engine