Thoughts on the Mercedes 500SL

[TNation]

I have a potential deal to get a 1991 Mercedes 500SL for $11,000. It has 190 thousand km on it which is a lot, but considering it is been well cared for and always maintained, I'm thinking about it.
However, I know Mercedes is very unreliable, but I heard the early 90's Mercedes were made much better...
Has anyone owned one? Any thoughts on these.. or the deal?
Much appreciatedd!

[bobby_lu]

Those early ones are said to be bulletproof, but maintenance will still be $$$. Considering the market of low KM JDM import Benz's that price is a bit high though. Definately a classic style though.

[avow]

^ yea i was going to say, consider bringing one in from japan. they are still left hand drive, and for that price you could get one with a lot less millage on it.

[JGerke]

expensive price...car are bulletproof, especially the 190's and 300s. those motors love love love to leak oil so check for taht as it is an expensive job to get done. overall good cars but kinda feels like your in a boat...

[tentacles]

I own a JDM one.

I don't know about "made better".

The engines and drive trains are definitely bulletproof, the M119 block is derived from their F1 race engines and one of the best engines they ever made. The same engine is used in the famous 500E.

...but the R129s have a number of serious weaknesses that may turn out to be very expensive. Here's a list I posted on Benzworld:

Based on both my own experiences and reading the forum:

- Convertible top hydraulics will be your biggest headache. Watch out for hydraulic fluid leaking from either the top of the windscreen or near the rear wheels. Check for leaking fluid from the hydraulic pump in the trunk under the spare wheel. Try to get one that has recently had the top serviced. A dead top control module apparently is a very expensive (thousands) issue, but I'm not sure how common that is.

- Radiators. I guess there are certain parts of the rad that are made of plastic and not very durable. There's at least a couple of us that have had to fix/replace radiators. The V6 rads are cheaper, on the V8s these are >$400 parts.

- The vacuum pump for the central locking system is notorious for failure. I think we've all had to replace them at some point. Easy, but the part itself isn't cheap ($250-$350).

- On the older models, the headlight wipers are a source of potential problems.

- The "dash flash" resulting from a worn out capacitor on the instrument cluster. Luckily, thanks to bobterry, this is now an easy and cheap fix.

- "Ticking" from the valve lifters. Haven't had this problem myself, but it seems to be common with the older M119 engine.

- Bosch Jetronic fuel injection system on the older M119 engine is very sensitive to fouling and may need new injectors, and 8x injectors are not cheap. I'll have to replace mine pretty soon here. It's not really a huge issue, the only thing is that sometimes it takes more than one crank to start.

- The tow hook cover in front is easily lost.

- The covers on the map pocket on the doors break very easily. I don't think we've found a cheap solution to this, since you can only buy the entire assembly at once at some crazy dealer price. Glue and/or self-tapping screws through the door panels seem to be our only options?

- Headrest motors seem to break very easily. Not cheap and (as far as I can tell, lord knows I've tried!) not an easy job to replace.

- There seems to be a lot of (different)issues with the A/C system. (edit to add) To replace the AC evaporator, a common fail item, you basically have to take apart the whole front end. Will probably cost $5k+.

- One thing I didn't mention: the engine mounts seem to be a recurring issue as well, I haven't had the problem myself so no further comment on that.

The above prices are in USD since I was replying on a (mostly) US board. Canandian parts prices are basically 2x more expensive.

Basically it's like any other older euro car - you better be prepared to do a lot of work and research yourself, because getting stuff done at the dealer will rapidly add up to more than the car is worth. The convertible tops on the R129 are particularly troublesome. To replace the cylinder system is something like 26 hours labour at the dealer, and none of the indy shops that I've asked will even touch it. It's a lot of work for a car that isn't worth that much to begin with.

EDIT TO ADD: I've never heard about any of these engines leaking oil, like I say the drivetrains are bulletproof.

I probably wouldn't buy one again - The convertible top is nice, but the ridiculous amount of time/money needed to keep it working just isn't worth it with Calgary's weather. A lot of the people on Benzworld who own them seem to be in California or Arizona and never use the top.

[tentacles]

Adding stuff as I think of them:

The engine doesn't have very much low end torque for a 5l V8. Need to get it up to 3500-4000 rpm for the power to kick in. I think you can add hot cams or something to improve it but I know nothing about that - There isn't really much in terms of aftermarket performance parts. The 4 speed auto tranny doesn't help either. Reliable as far as I know, and good for highway cruising, but not geared for off-the-line performance.

[JGerke]

bah, i'm an idiot. I was thinking of the R107. Those motors are notorious for oil leaks. As for this being the best meredes motor....I would contend the 2.3-16V used in the 190E (adapted for use in DTM cars against the first M3 and brought about the M3...) and the AMG Hammer were better.....

[rage2]

Originally posted by tentacles
the M119 block is derived from their F1 race engines
The M119 was used in Sauber Mercedes Group C racers, not in F1, in 1991 if I remember right. For '93 Mercedes was going to dive straight into F1 for their comeback with a new engine, but plans were scrapped and they went to Ilmor. The Saubers F1 cars that year had "Concept by Mercedes Benz" on the side.

So the F1 engine was a pure Ilmor project, no relations to any Mercedes engines. Still is to this day... only thing that's changed is MB fully owns the old Ilmor now, with the new Ilmor that does Honda's IRL motors owned by the old owner (the other owner died).

edit - my sportscar history ain't as good as my F1 history... The M119 was used in the C9 and C11 Group C cars of '89 and '90, so the production engine could very well have been based on the Group C motors.

[JGerke]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_M119_engine

[tentacles]

Yeah, whatever, the one with the wing that goes really fast, Okay? :cry:

(He's right, of course)

[Graham_A_M]

How about the BMW 850I's that can be imported for $12k or so?

I heard those 5.0 V12's need to have the top end redone at about 150k or so, is that true?

[JGerke]

ya, the one with the wing!

850's look cool but are a pita to work on and from what I remember are hella expensive to fix. But wow...seeing under the hood of one of those is sick! The motors (M73B54 and the S70B56 a very very highly modified and hardly even the same block) were used in the rolls royce phantom and the mclaren F1...

[tentacles]

I know nothing detailed about them other than the fact that they look a lot better in pictures than they do in person. The proportions are really off, which you can sort of hide with the correct angle for pictures but they're hideous in reality. I thought about buying one until I saw one on the street. :barf:

....but we're going off topic.

[avow]

850i's are really slow compared to the 500sl. Considering the weight and size of that thing the power it puts out is very sad really. Source: http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread/t-78615.html

[Graham_A_M]

^ The engines are pretty awful, considering what they are. Even though its a low compression engine, I've never heard of them being able to withstand any sort of boost without needing some work. I knew that for a while, but performance wise, I sure was curious. I didn't know they were that heavy. Its the same engine used in the 750IL's too, are they any better in compairison?

BTW, speaking of V12's, what do you guys think of the 6.0 V12 found in the Benz SEL600's? I noticed a few of them on www.japanautodirect.com and they look pretty good, for something as big as they are. I think their a little under 400hp?
:dunno:

[danlowteg]

Originally posted by Graham+AF8-A+AF8-M
+AF4- The engines are pretty awful, considering what they are. Even though its a low compression engine, I've never heard of them being able to withstand any sort of boost without needing some work. I knew that for a while, but performance wise, I sure was curious. I didn't know they were that heavy. Its the same engine used in the 750IL's too, are they any better in compairison?

BTW, speaking of V12's, what do you guys think of the 6.0 V12 found in the Benz SEL600's? I noticed a few of them on www.japanautodirect.com and they look pretty good, for something as big as they are. I think their a little under 400hp?
:dunno:

if you like money don't get a v12 unless you do all the work. for some reason my boss likes to take on bmw v12's with big probs and put me to work on them. they are stupid engines to work on, the bill ends up to be +ACQ-7000 just for head gasket. stick with the v8

[rage2]

Originally posted by JGerke
850's look cool but are a pita to work on and from what I remember are hella expensive to fix. But wow...seeing under the hood of one of those is sick! The motors (M73B54 and the S70B56 a very very highly modified and hardly even the same block) were used in the rolls royce phantom and the mclaren F1...
Actually the McLaren F1 engine has nothing to do with the M70 series of V12's, except for the name. When BMW was approached by McLaren to build the McLaren F1 motor after Honda turned down the offer (Honda was McLaren's F1 partner at the time and wasn't interested in such a high cost low volume project), BMW offered them the S70-1 from the M8 prototype. Gordon Murray told them that wouldn't work and asked them to build an engine from the ground up to meet HIS weight and horsepower targets. BMW looked at the S70-1 design and tried to modify it for the McLaren F1, and decided that it was easier to start from scratch. They ended up with a completely new motor and called it the S70-2 since the initial project was a modification of the S70-1. The engines literally has NOTHING in common except for the S70 designation. The engine weight did not meet McLaren's target, but it did exceed their hp targets by 80hp, so Gordon Murray signed off on the design and the McLaren powerplant was born.

The stuff learned from the S70-2 project was applied later to another BMW M engine, the 3.0L E36 euro spec M3.

I know my McLaren history! :rofl:

[tentacles]

Well, started her up today and she was spewing gas like a hose. So you can add "fuel lines prone to crack" to the list. :banghead: