How do you come to a stop (shifting)?

[Vagabond142]

This was posed to me as a question by my buddy, and I thought it would be an interesting forum poll question :)

He asked, as we were coming back from seeing Bourne Ultimatum (awesome movie) with firends, "Why do you always double clutch downshift when coming to a stop?" (I do that 85% of the time, just for statistics sake :D). I replied that it's the way I eventually learned to do it, and now it's automatic to do the ol' doublekick with revmatch, unless I'm in neutral coming down a decently steep hill (like Sarcee Tr N going down the hill).

So, how do you come to a stop? Automatic transmission people get to say "I just push the brake pedal" but for us manual shifters, do you put it in neutral and let the brakes take the full braking, single clutch downshift, double clutch downshift? I'm just interested :D

[JRSC00LUDE]

Neutral with brakes most of the time. Is the double clutch just for lining up syncro's? I really should know this by now......

[bluetek]

Neutral with brakes, but if I got time I like to downshift w/brakes.

[Weapon_R]

I always use brakes only. Its cheaper and easier to replace brake pads than to reduce the life of your tranny with hard downshifts.

[LuxCars]

i dont wanna sound like a noob, but how do you double clutch
and what is it exactly?, cause when i slow down i usually just shift down until second and apply the brakes until i stop, then pop it into neutral.

[Vagabond142]

Double clutching is to have the gearbox spinning at the same speed as the engine and wheels (through the gearing) when you shift to the lower gear. Also, if you have a crashbox (no synchros) then you HAVE to double clutch to have the gears spinning all at the exact same speed so they'll engage.

[rc2002]

If you're coming to a complete stop anyway, what's the point of downshifting while braking? That's just needless wear and tear. I would rather have more wear and tear on my brakes than on my drive train.

[bobby_lu]

Originally posted by richardchan2002
If you're coming to a complete stop anyway, what's the point of downshifting while braking? That's just needless wear and tear. I would rather have more wear and tear on my brakes than on my drive train.


:werd: neutral braking for laziness and FTW

[Vagabond142]

Originally posted by LuxCars
i dont wanna sound like a noob, but how do you double clutch
and what is it exactly?, cause when i slow down i usually just shift down until second and apply the brakes until i stop, then pop it into neutral.


Double clutching in laymans terms:

-You're going down a straight and level road. Light ahead turns red. You:

a) Start braking, clutch in, bring the stick to neutral, clutch out
b) While leaving your toes or, in cars like the S2000 or the M3, the ball of your foot depressing the brake pedal, use your heel to depress the gas pedal to get a rapid "blip" of engine rpms. This blip has to be found by feel and time spent driving the car, but it's usually ~1500 rpms over where you were in the previous gear
c) Immediately after the blip, while still braking, you clutch in, select the lower gear (say from 5th to 4th), and clutch out rapidly while the gearbox is still spinning at the blipped speed. If you got it all right, and it's 99% feel and being used to the car, or you're Schumacher, then engine and gearbox will meet at hte exact right speed and there is no wear on the clutch plate and there will be no lurch. Your engine then starts to do what is called "compression braking," where it uses cylinder compression to help bring the car to a stop

[Doozer]

You missed my option, but it's a variation on the above. I hold the clutch in the entire time and let the brakes do the work, but instead of shifting into neutral, I progress down the gears as I brake.

So clutch fully down the whole time, brake pedal pushed, but I move down through the gears with the stick. I was taught this way, so that if something happens while you're braking (need to avoid something or suddenly accelerate for a reason), you can let out the clutch and just go, but you're not straining the engine by using the rpms to slow your speed.

[adam c]

^^ u just wear ur clutch like crazy that way...

[boredengineer]

Originally posted by adam c
^^ u just wear ur clutch like crazy that way...

Learn how your car works... You do not wear the clutch if you depress fully since it is completly disengaged.

[arian_ma]

I downshift every gear except 1st.
I don't like knowing I am going 30 KM/h in 6th, bogging the SHIT out of my engine and having absolutely no power to do anything in case something goes wrong.
Neutral coast FTL.
There's a reason why it's illegal to neutral coast in the states.

Also, I don't understand why you guys say it's hard on the drive train to downshift. If you properly rev-match, how does it stress your drive train THAT much?
:dunno:

[blinkme_210]

+1 for neutral braking as well.

I only row down through all the gears if I think that traffic is slowing down, but still moving. Then get it into the torque band and power away.

[Neil4Speed]

I am not to sure if this would be "double clutching"

But if I am coasting and see a red travelling at say 90km/h in 6th, I clutch in, Shift into 4th (clutch still in), Up the revs with the gas, Release the clutch and use my engine to brake for a bit, and then do the same to get into 2nd, then clutch in and then brake.

[Neil4Speed]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
I always use brakes only. Its cheaper and easier to replace brake pads than to reduce the life of your tranny with hard downshifts.

I always held the same logic until I read my manual and it said that it was alright to do.

[cdnsir]

So is double-clutching is the same as doing "heel-toes"? I always thought they were different but the technique sounds the same...

Anyway back to the thread, I mostly use all brake with clutch in. But in winter is when I use heel-toes as well to get some engine-braking in to help slow the car down.

[three.eighteen.]

heel toe is like double clutching without the double part, i'll usually heel-toe or double clutch into 2nd or 3rd, but that's it

[cmodem]

Originally posted by Neil4Speed
I am not to sure if this would be "double clutching"

But if I am coasting and see a red travelling at say 90km/h in 6th, I clutch in, Shift into 4th (clutch still in), Up the revs with the gas, Release the clutch and use my engine to brake for a bit, and then do the same to get into 2nd, then clutch in and then brake.

No that is single clutch... wow so many standard drivers don't know what double clutching is lol.

You are just rev-matching which is already way better then ppl who don't rev match.

Rev matching i.e blipping your throttle when your clutch is not fully engaged in neutral just brings your engine to match the speed of your wheels at the gear you are in... however the input shaft that connects to your main shaft on your transmission is not sped up to the proper speed and thus is caught up to speed all at once.

Single Clutching with rev matching does the following
a) you disengage clutch the engine now is disconnected from the input shaft... the input shaft may or may not be connected to the main shaft depending if you blip in gear or in neutral
b) you blip the throttle... the engine revolutions now match... however your clutch is disengaged and now does not spin the input shaft to the necessary speed
c) you engage clutch... engine being at the right speed as the clutch grabs it will spin the input shaft to the speed of the engine.

Double Clutching with rev matching does the following....

a) you disengage clutch and put into neutral
b) you engage clutch and now your in neutral and your input shaft is now going at the same speed as your engine however is not connected to the main shaft->axles->wheels that are going a certain speed.
c) you blip the throttle... since the clutch is engaged you will spin the engine which spins the input shaft to the speed of the engine
d) you disengage clutch and put into gear
e) you engage clutch before engine speed drops... now your engine is going the right speed your input shaft is going the right speed and it matches you main shaft->axles->wheels

if you count you disengage and engage clutch at a->b and d->e thus "double clutching".

This is kind of a lamen's term explanation without syncros and hubs etc... and with this...

i still single clutch rev-match whenever i down shift.... but i neutral coast coming to lights... or gear coast depending on what gear like if i'm in 3... benefits of having a low torque inline 6 is my powerband is good at low rpms :D

[bspot]

Originally posted by three.eighteen.
heel toe is like double clutching without the double part, i'll usually heel-toe or double clutch into 2nd or 3rd, but that's it

Not true. You have to heel toe to double clutch so you can still be braking while reving your engine to match rpm's.

I double clutch all the time, not because it's necessary, but because I used to drive forklifts without synchro's and that was the only way you can shift those. Now it's just habit and I find it smoother than just letting the clutch out, plus it saves wear and tear.

Neutral coasting isn't safe or smart unless you need to slow down faster than your engine is able to on friction alone (you see a dog run in front of you, put the clutch in while you slam on the brakes).

[three.eighteen.]

Originally posted by bspot


Not true. You have to heel toe to double clutch so you can still be braking while reving your engine to match rpm's.



hmmm you're right, i was just thinking of the number of times the clutch is engaged/disengaged...i suppose i rarely double clutch my braking downshifts, i just double clutch when downshifting

[cmodem]

lol i totally agree... double clutching is necessary when you don't have syncros etc on forklifts big rigs etc.... but on trannies now i days it's not really necessary.

and heel toe has nothing to do with double clutching... you can heel toe while single clutching... all heel toes is... is a way of driving where you use your toe to brake and heel to blip the throttle... so you can:

brake with your toe.... and rev-match with you heel.

Whether you double clutch or not is your own deal. I heel-toe while single clutching because it lets me brake and downshift smoothly while still braking... but usually i just drive like i drive a motorcycle brake and get all my shifting crap done before i start turning... may not be the fastest but whatev just driving on the street.

[ga16i]

I double clutch heel toe when coming to a stop, I like to sound fast even when slowing down hehehe :D
vrroom, vrrooom, vrroooommm.

^ above is 5 -> 4 -> 3 -> 2

and then it sits in neutral with clutch engaged (no foot on clutch pedal), if waiting for long light or on incline, handbrake is pulled

[jibber]

I double clutch when downshifting, but all I do is push the brake pedal. My car has an automated manual transmission by Getrag, so one pull on the paddle behind the steering wheel, and it does everything for me :D

[whiskas]

I let engine compression do the job until I feel the injectors kick back on then I pop it into neutral and use brakes the rest of the way.

[Vagabond142]

Originally posted by boredengineer


Learn how your car works... You do not wear the clutch if you depress fully since it is completly disengaged.


:eek::eek:WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG!!!!:eek::eek:

By keeping the clutch down you are "riding the clutch" which puts TREMENDOUS wear on the clutch springs. This is is the way to a much sooner than later clutch replacement. Say if your clutch would last 100,000 km's before, by riding the clutch, you would probably reduce that to 70k or 60k if you rode the hell out of your clutch. If you want to be just braking, it's much better to clutch in, shift to neutral, clutch out. That way, the spring is not compressed, hence saving you a LOT of wear on your clutch

[Vagabond142]

Originally posted by cmodem

Whether you double clutch or not is your own deal. I heel-toe while single clutching because it lets me brake and downshift smoothly while still braking... but usually i just drive like i drive a motorcycle brake and get all my shifting crap done before i start turning... may not be the fastest but whatev just driving on the street.

You should try to have all shifting and most braking done before entering a corner. This is good good advice ^^^^^^^

[teggypimp95]

Originally posted by Vagabond142



Double clutching in laymans terms:

-You're going down a straight and level road. Light ahead turns red. You:

a) Start braking, clutch in, bring the stick to neutral, clutch out
b) While leaving your toes or, in cars like the S2000 or the M3, the ball of your foot depressing the brake pedal, use your heel to depress the gas pedal to get a rapid "blip" of engine rpms. This blip has to be found by feel and time spent driving the car, but it's usually ~1500 rpms over where you were in the previous gear
c) Immediately after the blip, while still braking, you clutch in, select the lower gear (say from 5th to 4th), and clutch out rapidly while the gearbox is still spinning at the blipped speed. If you got it all right, and it's 99% feel and being used to the car, or you're Schumacher, then engine and gearbox will meet at hte exact right speed and there is no wear on the clutch plate and there will be no lurch. Your engine then starts to do what is called "compression braking," where it uses cylinder compression to help bring the car to a stop

Crazy thats exactly how i do it. I dont like down shift so you feel the car slow down to quick becuase its to hard on the crank and the tranny. I just never knew the the name for this method. My gf always asks why i do it this way. I guess i can explain it better now lol.

[A3GTiVR6SC]

Originally posted by boredengineer


Learn how your car works... You do not wear the clutch if you depress fully since it is completly disengaged.



Originally posted by Vagabond142



:eek::eek:WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG!!!!:eek::eek:



Reading>You.

[Darkane]

In my car usually single clutch rev match, In a five ton Rev Match no clutch. Also up shifting is done without clutch sometimes.

[Canmorite]

Braking plus rev matching downshifts. Practice makes perfect!

[KoukiS14]

Originally posted by Canmorite
Braking plus rev matching downshifts. Practice makes perfect!

:werd:

[jibber]

I have to agree with A3GT on this one.

You are only wearing out the clutch if the friction disc is slipping.

You *do not* wear out the clutch when your foot is not on the clutch pedal, the clutch is fully engaged and there is no slip. (Unless you have a 300hp Civic w/ the stock clutch, then you could get the clutch to slip very easily without your foot anywhere near the clutch pedal :D )

You also *do not* wear the clutch out when the pedal is fully depressed, and the friction disc isn't touching anything. There is no slip, no engagement. You can't wear the clutch out if it's not touching anything! This would include holding the clutch in at a red light, all the way to holding the clutch pedal down all the way when travelling at speed.

[TegLover]

LOL to the goof balls that think depressing your clutch fully wears it out.

Go to how stuff works and learn how a clutch actually works and then search up the term "riding" a clutch.:bullshit:

[Godfuader]

Clear roads: Neutral coasting (Brakes all the way)
Slippery roads: Proper downshifting to 1st (no brakes)

[Doozer]

Originally posted by A3GTiVR6SC

Reading > You.

Originally posted by JDMSupraTT
I have to agree with A3GT on this one.
You also *do not* wear the clutch out when the pedal is fully depressed, and the friction disc isn't touching anything. There is no slip, no engagement. You can't wear the clutch out if it's not touching anything! This would include holding the clutch in at a red light, all the way to holding the clutch pedal down all the way when travelling at speed.

Originally posted by TegLover
LOL to the goof balls that think depressing your clutch fully wears it out.


Good to hear the support; I was worried that no one else knew the difference between riding the clutch and fully depressing it.

I think the fact that I sold my beloved '92 teggy with 305,000kms and the original clutch says that the fully depressed brake method can't be too bad... (speaks well of the Honda craftsmanship also).

[Vagabond142]

You said reading>me....


notice I wasn't talking about clutch slip or friction or anything to do with the two plates touching.

I was talking about the clutch SPRINGS. You know, the things that when you push down on the clutch pull the two plates apart? Wear those down nice n fast by riding the clutch, one does.

Reading > YOU

Meh, you guys wanna wear out your springs, go right ahead. :dunno:

[bspot]

Originally posted by JDMSupraTT
I have to agree with A3GT on this one.

You are only wearing out the clutch if the friction disc is slipping.

You *do not* wear out the clutch when your foot is not on the clutch pedal, the clutch is fully engaged and there is no slip. (Unless you have a 300hp Civic w/ the stock clutch, then you could get the clutch to slip very easily without your foot anywhere near the clutch pedal :D )

You also *do not* wear the clutch out when the pedal is fully depressed, and the friction disc isn't touching anything. There is no slip, no engagement. You can't wear the clutch out if it's not touching anything! This would include holding the clutch in at a red light, all the way to holding the clutch pedal down all the way when travelling at speed.

You wear out your throwout bearing if you keep your clutch in all the time.

[Vagabond142]

Originally posted by bspot


You wear out your throwout bearing if you keep your clutch in all the time.

Same shit, different pile. What he said ^^^^ :thumbsup:

[A2VR6]

Originally posted by Canmorite
Braking plus rev matching downshifts. Practice makes perfect!

same here! love the sound it makes too!

[Xamim]

During the summer I just let her coast in nuetral, saves on gas. During the winter I use single clutch downshifts, that way my tires dont loose traction.. And besides, I dont see the point in putting the car in nuetral then giving it some gas and then downshifting.

What I do:

Going in 5th, want to get into 4th while braking.
1) Brake and clutch in.
2) As I am doing step 1, I shift into a lower gear and "blip" the throttle
3)Keep braking and clutch out.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[962 kid]

I leave my car in gear, slowing down to 30kph or so in 3rd gear before putting it in neutral, unless I'm having fun in which case it's heel-toe or revmatch ftw.


Originally posted by Vaginabond142
You said reading>me....


notice I wasn't talking about clutch slip or friction or anything to do with the two plates touching.

I was talking about the clutch SPRINGS. You know, the things that when you push down on the clutch pull the two plates apart? Wear those down nice n fast by riding the clutch, one does.

Reading > YOU

Meh, you guys wanna wear out your springs, go right ahead. :dunno:

clutch springs have a near-infinite life span, so I wouldn't worry about those. If by chance you don't know what you're talking about and mean the throw-out bearing, guess what? Holding it in is a) NOT riding the clutch, and b) does not reduce the lifespan of your clutch by 30-40 percent. Your entire post shows that you don't really know how a clutch works... springs don't pull the "2 discs" apart (there aren't 2 discs, there is one disc between the flywheel and pressure plate). I could go on with how wrong you are, but you wouldn't understand it anyways.

Time for you to read now:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/clutch1.htm


Originally posted by Xamim
During the summer I just let her coast in nuetral, saves on gas.

keeping your car in gear actually uses less gas then putting it in neutral, as your injectors shut off completely when you let off the throttle and the engine RPM is above a certain point

[Xamim]

Originally posted by 962 kid
keeping your car in gear actually uses less gas then putting it in neutral, as your injectors shut off completely when you let off the throttle and the engine RPM is above a certain point

Never knew that, I guess you leran something new every day. How about this. Say it takes me 15 seconds to stop while in nuetral, meaning the engine is idling for those 15 seconds. Is that still not efficient as if you where to rev your engine to say 4000RPM 3-4 times in those 15 seconds as I was downshifting?

Im assuming that this "certain point" is above 4000RPM in this example.

[jsn]

If I'm coasting to a stop, I personally don't get what the point of downshifting is. Eventually I'll have to put it into neutral anyways. I just put it into neutral and brake. If I'm slowing down, say before a turn, I'll heeltoe or revmatch. I don't know any of the consequences for this. Like mentioned above, i don't know if it actually uses up more gas, but I just find it easier.

But hey thats just me :thumbsup:

[MidnightDreamer]

Originally posted by Xamim


Never knew that, I guess you leran something new every day. How about this. Say it takes me 15 seconds to stop while in nuetral, meaning the engine is idling for those 15 seconds. Is that still not efficient as if you where to rev your engine to say 4000RPM 3-4 times in those 15 seconds as I was downshifting?

Im assuming that this "certain point" is above 4000RPM in this example.

When you blip the throttle there is no load on the engine. The only gas you waste is in the energy to speed the pistons up... None of your gas is being used on moving the car... I don't understand how you would be saving gas though, I would assume it would use just a little bit more than neutral braking...


I single clutch with rev matching down to third usually... I find unless I'm driving fast it's hard to rev to exactly the right point without love jerkin the car a bit.

As I understand it, the syncros in most modern cars make double clutching unnecessary. Still a good technique to learn though in my opinion, it demonstrates good driver control over their car.

[Vagabond142]

962 Kid: I was meaning the bearings, not the springs. My mind is tired after today. Also, the way I learned it, even with the pedal fully down, that is stressing the bearing and pressure plates, hence the wear and tear. Way I was taught about engines and clutches, the less time spent loading the bearing, the better it is for said bearing.

And as to two plates, my mind was thinking clutch plate and pressure plate. I know it's flywheel vs clutch plate, my brain just did a "lolwut" and my fingers followed along, so sorry -_-

Like I said, it's been a massively long day :cry:

[TegLover]

Originally posted by MidnightDreamer

As I understand it, the syncros in most modern cars make double clutching unnecessary. Still a good technique to learn though in my opinion, it demonstrates good driver control over their car.

If you are doing any spirited driving or rev high then it is still necessary to double clutch unless you want to kill your syncros fast.

[MidnightDreamer]

Damn r u serious??? When I see people tackling a track I only see them heel toe down shift for most corners... Wouldn't it be too time consuming to do a full double clutch? Or am I just not watching these vids carefully enough.

If I'm driving spirited it usually in 3rd approaching a corner, brake, clutch in, blip <5000+ rpm>, and release in 2nd... Am I frying my syncros?

Just to clarify, if I was doing the same and double clutching it would be: brake, clutch in, neutral <clutch out>, blip <5000+ rpm>, clutch in, 2nd and release???

[dr_jared88]

i laugh at all you that all you saying that you dont downshift because you would rather change brake pads then a transmission. thats obvious but down shifting won't blow a transmission. you dont even have to be that good in a car to downshift. just slide it in gear and let the clutch out slowly. double clutching comes with time. but as long as your not doing 80 and throw it in first and drop the clutch, no harm is going to come from it. but if you were to do that, it would be your engine to blow. not your transmission.

I take it, most all of you have never driven a heavy duty truck with a transmission with no syncros. as said before you NEED to downshift in these trucks, and defiantly need to double clutch doing so. if you just put it in neutral and brake in a heavy truck, especially with certain transmissions such as a 10 speed spicer, your are screwed if the light turns green. you'll never find a gear without coming to a complete stop. and if down shifting was bad on the car then it wouldn't be considered a good thing to do.

but as for me. i defiantly double clutch down in my car.. and in the truck, double clutch up and down

[962 kid]

Originally posted by Vagabond142
962 Kid: I was meaning the bearings, not the springs. My mind is tired after today. Also, the way I learned it, even with the pedal fully down, that is stressing the bearing and pressure plates, hence the wear and tear. Way I was taught about engines and clutches, the less time spent loading the bearing, the better it is for said bearing.

And as to two plates, my mind was thinking clutch plate and pressure plate. I know it's flywheel vs clutch plate, my brain just did a &quot;lolwut&quot; and my fingers followed along, so sorry -_-

Like I said, it's been a massively long day :cry:

haha no prob happens to everyone. Sure, it causes wear and tear on it, but that's like saying not to go WOT because it puts extra wear on your rings, or not to downshift w/o revmatching because it wears your synchros.


Originally posted by TegLover


If you are doing any spirited driving or rev high then it is still necessary to double clutch unless you want to kill your syncros fast.

really? How many cars have you killed synchros on by not revmatching? I must have missed the part in driver's ed, or the special bulletin in the owner's manual of my car: REVMATCHING: see pgs 37-39 *note - not heel-toeing will result in warranty being voided*



Originally posted by dr_jared88
i laugh at all you that all you saying that you dont downshift because you would rather change brake pads then a transmission. thats obvious but down shifting won't blow a transmission. you dont even have to be that good in a car to downshift. just slide it in gear and let the clutch out slowly. double clutching comes with time. but as long as your not doing 80 and throw it in first and drop the clutch, no harm is going to come from it. but if you were to do that, it would be your engine to blow. not your transmission.

:werd: some of the misinformation in this thread is ridiculous.

[SilverRex]

well for me it depends on the situation.

obviously if I am coming to a complete stop , regardless of what speed at I Started at, ill simply just keep braking to the point where I have to clutch in and move into neutral.

but if I anticipate that I have to take off again or keep moving, I'll simply leave my clutch depressed and move my gears according to the speed im at and if I see the need to engage Ill just blip the throttle to match and move.

ocassionally ill let the engine brake for me for a gear or two, just loved the sound that my engine is doing something. otherwise I dont do this often since I rather have wear on my brakes then on my engine/clutch/tranny

[KISS_ME]

if theres a lot of hot high school girls at the lights then i would downshift. :D
otherwise neutral with brakes.

i dont know crap about cars so please dont flame me for asking this but is there a proper way to rev match?
the way i see people do it is with a single kick of the throttle (i dont know how they do it but they usually land at the right rpm) then clutch out.

the way i do it is kinda like riding on the throttle till i hit the right rpm. Am i doing this correctly?

[Ferio_vti]

Neutral with brakes if it's definitely a red light or there's cars ahead of me.

but if there's no one ahead me and I can see and count down the other lights turning yellow to red. Then I single clutch, rolling up the light and go thru the lights the second it turns green.

[Gondi Stylez]

Single clutching over here!

[ga16i]

phsssh, I can't believe how little people on beyond double clutch heel toe... come on, at least pretend you have an expensive ass tranny w/o synchros :D

Really surprises me to see the amount of people on beyond who granny shift and not double clutch like they should, just wait till that 100 shot of NOS blow the welds on your intakes, bastards.

[dansmith11]

Originally posted by 962 kid
I leave my car in gear, slowing down to 30kph or so in 3rd gear before putting it in neutral, unless I'm having fun in which case it's heel-toe or revmatch ftw.



clutch springs have a near-infinite life span, so I wouldn't worry about those. If by chance you don't know what you're talking about and mean the throw-out bearing, guess what? Holding it in is a) NOT riding the clutch, and b) does not reduce the lifespan of your clutch by 30-40 percent. Your entire post shows that you don't really know how a clutch works... springs don't pull the &quot;2 discs&quot; apart (there aren't 2 discs, there is one disc between the flywheel and pressure plate). I could go on with how wrong you are, but you wouldn't understand it anyways.

Time for you to read now:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/clutch1.htm



keeping your car in gear actually uses less gas then putting it in neutral, as your injectors shut off completely when you let off the throttle and the engine RPM is above a certain point

haha, who told you that? lol a pressure plate does not have a near infinite life span. everytime you step on your clutch pedal your putting stress on your pressure plate, and your throwout bearing, both of which are wear items and will wear out over time. i dont think it reduces the life of your clutch by 40%, but its still a wear item.

and just to be a smartass...there are clutches with 2+ discs in them. lol.

[KISS_ME]

Originally posted by dansmith11


haha, who told you that? lol a pressure plate does not have a near infinite life span. everytime you step on your clutch pedal your putting stress on your pressure plate, and your throwout bearing, both of which are wear items and will wear out over time. i dont think it reduces the life of your clutch by 40%, but its still a wear item.

and just to be a smartass...there are clutches with 2+ discs in them. lol.

this is a the looser that tought me how to drive. lol. dont listen to him.

[962 kid]

Originally posted by dansmith11


haha, who told you that? lol a pressure plate does not have a near infinite life span. everytime you step on your clutch pedal your putting stress on your pressure plate, and your throwout bearing, both of which are wear items and will wear out over time. i dont think it reduces the life of your clutch by 40%, but its still a wear item.

and just to be a smartass...there are clutches with 2+ discs in them. lol.

pressure plate != clutch springs, and I'd say you're more of a dumbass then a smartass. I'm well aware of the fact that there are double/triple clutch discs, but since only a handful of cars came with them from the factory (like the porsche 928), I didnt think it was worth mentioning

[New2Talon]

Originally posted by Doozer
You missed my option, but it's a variation on the above. I hold the clutch in the entire time and let the brakes do the work, but instead of shifting into neutral, I progress down the gears as I brake.

So clutch fully down the whole time, brake pedal pushed, but I move down through the gears with the stick. I was taught this way, so that if something happens while you're braking (need to avoid something or suddenly accelerate for a reason), you can let out the clutch and just go, but you're not straining the engine by using the rpms to slow your speed.

Umm, maybe I mesread, but if you don't let the clutch up, the there is not point in shifting through the gears..



OT but, is downshifting a MANDATORY thing to do while driving a manual? When I went for my advanced road test (to go from gdl to reg class 5) I got dinged 3 times for 10 points each because I didn't downshift when I was stopping. I was never told that you had to do this, and I just neutral'd it and used reg brakes to stop while I was doing my test (keep it simlple...) I have never heard that from anyone, that it is a thing you need to do...

[dansmith11]

Originally posted by 962 kid


pressure plate != clutch springs, and I'd say you're more of a dumbass then a smartass. I'm well aware of the fact that there are double/triple clutch discs, but since only a handful of cars came with them from the factory (like the porsche 928), I didnt think it was worth mentioning

lol a pressure plate is basically a spring genius, and when the other guy was talking about springs he was refering to the pressure plate, youd have to be retarded to think he was refering to the actual springs on the clutch disc.

[Doozer]

Originally posted by New2Talon

Umm, maybe I mesread, but if you don't let the clutch up, the there is not point in shifting through the gears..


OT but, is downshifting a MANDATORY thing to do while driving a manual? When I went for my advanced road test (to go from gdl to reg class 5) I got dinged 3 times for 10 points each because I didn't downshift when I was stopping. I was never told that you had to do this, and I just neutral'd it and used reg brakes to stop while I was doing my test (keep it simlple...) I have never heard that from anyone, that it is a thing you need to do...

Nope, you read it right. On the surface, there wouldn't seem to be much point in going down through the gears when you leave the clutch in the whole time. But as I mentioned later in the post, you're moving down through the gears *in case you have to acccelerate again*. It just means that if you're slowing from 120kms, and just before you stop (say your car has slowed to about 30kms/hr), you need to gas it again, you can pop the clutch out and your stick will already be in the appropriate gear (not still left in 5th or 6th), instead of fumbling through the gears and lugging or revving the engine when you're trying to do some evasive driving.

That's probably what your instructor was thinking as well.

EDIT: If it was MANDATORY, and you didn't do it, it would be an immediate fail (like stopping at a stop sign is mandatory, and not stopping is the end of the test). Because it was just demerits during the test, it probably falls into the catagory of "recommended" or something like that by Alberta govn't.

[dr_jared88]

However it is mandatory to double clutch upshift and downshift for anything higher for your class 5. For loosing points on your class 5, it's not because you didnt downshift. It is because you coasted with the stick in neutral. If you would have left it in a gear with the clutch depressed you wouldnt have lost any points. I know its stupid, but so is half the stuff they make you do for your road test.

[95EagleAWD]

Doubleclutching a synchromesh gearbox is not needed.

That's the whole point of synchros.

In my dad's old MG, he had to double clutch.

In my 3 Talons, my Galant and my NSX, there's no need to double-clutch.

I do heel-and-toe all the time though. Practice makes perfect on that for sure. But once you get it, you open up a whole new dimension of driving.

[New2Talon]

Originally posted by Doozer


Nope, you read it right. On the surface, there wouldn't seem to be much point in going down through the gears when you leave the clutch in the whole time. But as I mentioned later in the post, you're moving down through the gears *in case you have to acccelerate again*. It just means that if you're slowing from 120kms, and just before you stop (say your car has slowed to about 30kms/hr), you need to gas it again, you can pop the clutch out and your stick will already be in the appropriate gear (not still left in 5th or 6th), instead of fumbling through the gears and lugging or revving the engine when you're trying to do some evasive driving.

That's probably what your instructor was thinking as well.

EDIT: If it was MANDATORY, and you didn't do it, it would be an immediate fail (like stopping at a stop sign is mandatory, and not stopping is the end of the test). Because it was just demerits during the test, it probably falls into the catagory of &quot;recommended&quot; or something like that by Alberta govn't.

Ah, I see. I just read your first post, and replied off that. Even still, well for me at least, I keep an eye on my speed, so I would know what gear I need, and my hand is almost always on the shifter (no fumbling/lugging). I lost point for that too incase anyone was wondering...

I redid the test today with someone I knew from a few years back, and asked about the neutral coasting thing. He said that it is something you have to do for some stupid reason. Just because coasting in neutral is bad, but depressing the clutch and "coasting" would be fine. Dumb test rules.

[schurchill39]

Originally posted by dr_jared88
... SNIPE

I take it, most all of you have never driven a heavy duty truck with a transmission with no syncros. as said before you NEED to downshift in these trucks, and defiantly need to double clutch doing so. if you just put it in neutral and brake in a heavy truck, especially with certain transmissions such as a 10 speed spicer, your are screwed if the light turns green. you'll never find a gear without coming to a complete stop. and if down shifting was bad on the car then it wouldn't be considered a good thing to do.

but as for me. i defiantly double clutch down in my car.. and in the truck, double clutch up and down

I would also agree with you that 90% of the people here have never driven a tractor trailer but then again, that wasn't the question. How old of a truck have you been driving that you NEED to double clutch? The oldest truck I have driven so far was a 1995 and you definitly did not need to double clutch in that at all. Clutch in to start moving then its just a matter of rev matching from there, no clutch needed at all. Another thing to note on downshifting in a big rig is that because of the sheer weight, the brakes will wear ALOT quicker (as in within your trip) if you leave all of the braking up to them. You need to downshift to slow down and take some of that heat and stress off of the brakes.


Originally posted by dr_jared88
However it is mandatory to double clutch upshift and downshift for anything higher for your class 5. For loosing points on your class 5, it's not because you didnt downshift. It is because you coasted with the stick in neutral. If you would have left it in a gear with the clutch depressed you wouldnt have lost any points. I know its stupid, but so is half the stuff they make you do for your road test.

Again, where are you getting your information? It is not mandatory to double clutch at all for any sort of shifting in anything higher then a class 5. You can use your clutch to start and stop and they will be perfectly happy with that. It may have been mandatory 5 years ago but not now adays. The tester and instructor that I had when I got my class 1 just wanted to know that I knew how the clutch worked and had me use it to get the truck OUT of gear only (at lower speeds) They actually discouraged the use of double clutching and clutching to get into gear because of the stress it puts on the truck. Most companies now adays also prefer if you dont use the clutch because its less wear on the disk and they wont have to replace it as often as they would if some double clutch queen came in and started to fuck around. Dont forget about the clutch brake, if your traveling fast enough and depress the clutch to the floor like you would in a car you can fuck that up in a hurry.



Originally posted by KISS_ME
if theres a lot of hot high school girls at the lights then i would downshift. :D
otherwise neutral with brakes.

i dont know crap about cars so please dont flame me for asking this but is there a proper way to rev match?
the way i see people do it is with a single kick of the throttle (i dont know how they do it but they usually land at the right rpm) then clutch out.

the way i do it is kinda like riding on the throttle till i hit the right rpm. Am i doing this correctly?

Your method is fine for now but from what I understand chances are your riding your clutch at the same time your riding your throttle in order to get them to match properly. If this is the case then, like has been posted, you are putting alot of unessesary wear and tear on your clutch.

Practice makes perfect, just keep practicing your down shifts and eventually it will be just a matter of one quick kick/blip to the gas and you will have the proper RPM's. Its all a matter of knowing your vehicle and what speeds it does at what RPM's in which gear. At first you will get that lovely jerking until you figure it out and smooth it out. I am sure the high school girls would like a series of nice smooth down shifts as opposed to neutral coasting with random reving.


EDIT: Nice save vagabond! You had me worried, it didn't seem like you knew what you were talking about for a bit there. But I know full well how a long day can fuck with a person though

[Deetz]

I didn't choose any of the options listed. When i slow down to a stop, for normal stopping i quickly kick the gas and down shift to 3rd gear (keeping the revs matching when dropping it into the lower gear), not using the brakes, then the same thing for 2nd. After that, i go into neutral and use the brakes to a stop.
I've been driving standard for 18 years, and really down even think about it most of the time. :D

[eur0]

Originally posted by Deetz
I didn't choose any of the options listed. When i slow down to a stop, for normal stopping i quickly kick the gas and down shift to 3rd gear (keeping the revs matching when dropping it into the lower gear), not using the brakes, then the same thing for 2nd. After that, i go into neutral and use the brakes to a stop.
I've been driving standard for 18 years, and really down even think about it most of the time. :D

Same thing as 'Single clutch downshifting with brakes'. I do the exact same thing. I think I am too tall for heel-toe blips because my knees come in contact with the steering wheel. If I put my seat back my hands become too far from the pedals and the wheel, maybe I'm just a gimp. Anyone else have the same problem?

I never learned to double clutch and have tried it a couple times, but after driving for 6 years the way I do I can't really see the benefit of learning this technique.

[Xamim]

Originally posted by eur0


Same thing as 'Single clutch downshifting with brakes'. I do the exact same thing. I think I am too tall for heel-toe blips because my knees come in contact with the steering wheel. If I put my seat back my hands become too far from the pedals and the wheel, maybe I'm just a gimp. Anyone else have the same problem?



I know what you mean, and it sucks. :guns:

[hussein]

How come there is no option for people with auto who down shift into neutral and then hit the brake? :bigpimp:

jk.

[YCB]

http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread.php?threadid=105068

:)

[Dooms_Bane]

^
wow thats some fast shifting

[90_Shelby]

WOW!!!! Only on Beyond could "coming to a stop" be so complicated....:drama:

[googe]

if i was riding with you and you were double clutching on anything besides a tractor or a forklift, im sorry, but id have to laugh at you for being a huge ricer.

way to go dom!!

[Strider]

Single clutch & braking w/ heel-toe throttle-blip to revmatch here...

Usually 6 > 5 (with no braking) > 3> 2 (with brakes) or a portion thereof depending how fast i'm going at the time

I've read somewhere that you should NEVER downshift into 1st... thoughts?

[Biga Ramrod]

Originally posted by ga16i
phsssh, I can't believe how little people on beyond double clutch heel toe... come on, at least pretend you have an expensive ass tranny w/o synchros :D

Really surprises me to see the amount of people on beyond who granny shift and not double clutch like they should, just wait till that 100 shot of NOS blow the welds on your intakes, bastards.

I love your post! Thats exactly what came to mind for me.

I have a real noob question (please don't flame me), so is it called "riding the clutch" when you push your clutch all the way down to the floor? I always thought riding the clutch was when the clutch was not fully pushed down?


Originally posted by Strider
I've read somewhere that you should NEVER downshift into 1st... thoughts?

I think you are right about never shifting into 1st, because my car locks 1st gear when driving above a certain speed, making it impossible to shift into it.

[The Cosworth]

Originally posted by boredengineer


Learn how your car works... You do not wear the clutch if you depress fully since it is completly disengaged.

you wear out the clutch release bearing real quick though.

haha YOU learn how your car work

as for me, I used to always downshift and brake, but now only do it when I need to get on the gas again (IE in a corner) otherwise just let the brakes do the work, with the clutch out and in neutral

[89s1]

man oh man I got depressed reading all of those replies from people that thought they knew what double clutching is... :rolleyes:

sad...

[89s1]

Originally posted by Deetz
I didn't choose any of the options listed. When i slow down to a stop, for normal stopping i quickly kick the gas and down shift to 3rd gear (keeping the revs matching when dropping it into the lower gear), not using the brakes, then the same thing for 2nd. After that, i go into neutral and use the brakes to a stop.
I've been driving standard for 18 years, and really down even think about it most of the time. :D


this is 100% the same way i do it, and i summed it up as single clutch downshift + brakes...

must be a winnipeg thing :D

EF's are by far the easiest cars to heel toe if you have size 10.5 or 11 feet!

[a social dsease]

double clutch as often as possible

[supe]

http://www.standardshift.com/

Really good information, and a lot of good forum threads. Highly recommended all the people who drive stick.

Some people in this thread mentioned neutral brake on dry roads and engine break when slippery. One of the threads in the other forum convinced me otherwise.

Engine breaking only works on two wheels (in most cars) which causes instability. ABS also wont help you with engine breaking.

Regular brakes evenly slow down each wheel, and is assisted by ABS if equipped. Apparently in some higher end cars, engine breaking is disabled when slipping is detected to correct the instability mentioned above. Thoughts?

On regular roads I keep my car in gear with the clutch engaged because YES it saves on gas (as little as it may be).