experience and legal advice regarding a car sale

[boarderfatty]

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[BrknFngrs]

I don't think you would be obligated to refund the money, I do believe "as is" is common practice and does hold up for a used vehicle regardless of him being a minor. Absolutely call an attorney though.

[boarderfatty]

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[BrknFngrs]

talk to an attorney, i really don't think you'd be held liable though it would be wrong for me to say for sure since I don't know 100%.

[boarderfatty]

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[clem24]

This is a used car sale. The contract says where is, as is. No warranties. No guarantees. No return policy. The onus is on the buyer to check out the car and make sure it is what they want and that they are satisfied with it. Heck not even Automaxx will allow you to return a car... And they knowingly screw people over. Tell them to fuck off if my advice.

The only thing that is holding you back is your conscience. Unless you knowingly screwed the guy over (and you mentioned you didn't), then move on. Hire a lawyer *only* if the guy threatens to sue you. Otherwise, leave it. You have no legal obligation to deal with him any further. Any more you do now is good will.

[boarderfatty]

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[TomcoPDR]

It's buyer's beware, the buyer HAD every right BEFORE purchase to take (and pay) for a mechanical inspection, test drive (most cases), visually inspect the vehicle, etc...

In terms of under age, a bill of sale is along the lines of a RECEIPT for his car purchase, it's not a legal CONTRACT. (yes, it's a legal docuement for proof of purchase, but not in terms of discussion making crap, credit application, etc...) It's simple a piece of paper stating he's paid $X amount, with the vehicle information. No different than buying a mountain bike at sport check.

I've bought lemons before, and I've UNKNOWNLY been accused of selling a lemon (not the same lemon that I bought, lol)... As long as you're not a curber, known this was a lemon and trying to get our sympathy/advice, then I say morally and legally you should have nothing to worry about. (IN MY OPINION)

[Ekliptix]

You shouldn't have any problem. As is means just that.
It's a 15+ year old car, and I also have a hard time believing a 17 wouldn't beat on it. What the heck are parents doing buying a GTR for their 17yr old anyway?

Edit: I'd feel bad for the guy if he was driving it normally.

[A790]

Sorry, but it's his loss. Tell him that you're sorry that it's happening but it was bought as is, where is.

[TNation]

Originally posted by A790
Sorry, but it's his loss. Tell him that you're sorry that it's happening but it was bought as is, where is.

if it was a dealership this would be a different story. But this is "as is"

[canuckcarguy]

I'm not a lawyer, but I'll say this.

Even if you sell something "as-is, where-is", there is an implied warranty that the item you're selling is fit for the purpose for which you're selling it. The obvious example would be if you were selling a 6 cylinder half-ton, and a buyer came and said they were in the market for a truck to pull their 39' fifth wheel. You tell them this is the truck for them, they buy it, and it craps out on their first trip - the vehicle wasn't fit for the purpose for which they purchased it, and they could likely come after you. In your case, the car made it back to Wetaskiwin, but isn't fit to drive anymore, so there may be a bit of an implied warranty issue. But unless you're a dealer (or curber, for that matter), it's unlikely a judge would make you pay much, if anything, unless the buyer can demonstrate that you knew or ought to have known that the engine was likely to blow.

You can sell goods to a minor, but I think you can't sell anything other than necessities and expect a valid contract without parental consent. In this case, the parents knew about it, which is pretty close to the same thing, and again, unless you're a dealer, I'd say most judges would side with you.

If you get taken to small claims court, it won't be to rescind the contract - this isn't a remedy available at that level of court, so instead it will be for damages (ie, the cost of the engine, or the loss incurred if they sold the vehicle at a loss due to the engine problems.) I think you've got a good chance of winning in court, especially if you're a private seller and don't sell vehicles on a regular basis, and the vehicle was sold for a fair price. But you always take some risks going to court, and my personal recommendation would be to take the position that you owe him nothing, but are prepared, as a good guy, to pay him a few bucks to end this situation (and have him agree to it in writing). I wouldn't take the vehicle back for the same reasons you gave above.

One thing - whether you're talking to him or presenting any written offers of compensation, always preface every communication with the term "without prejudice". Every time you talk to him or his dad, say "hey, this is a without prejudice conversation, right?" Essentially this means you can negotiate freely, and neither of you can later make reference to these communications in a subsequent court case, if it comes to that. If you can't resolve this privately and it ends up in front of a judge, and he can state that you offered him $500, this may seem an admission of fault. It would be nice if the judge can't hear about that... lets you talk unencumbered.

Good luck!

[variance]

You have no obligation to refund him any money.

The car was sold as is. Once the Bill of Sale has been signed and money exchanged, the car belongs to him.

"As-is" denotes that the seller is selling, and the buyer is buying an item in whatever condition it presently exists, and that the buyer is accepting the item "with all faults", whether or not immediately apparent. "

He had the opportunity to perform whatever mechanical inspection he deemed necessary and for whatever reason, did not. This is really a case of buyer beware.

Also, the term AS-IS also expressly disclaims any implied warranty. In fact if you are a private seller, AS-IS is automatically assumed unless expressly stated. Meaning that even if you had not written AS-IS on the Bill of Sale, it would still be considered as such unless you agree to give him a specific warranty.

All of this is void of course if you sell the car fraudulently. (IE. Selling your 1989 GTR as a 1991. )

In fact, I would steer clear of giving him even a partial refund or helping him with any repairs, as he may be able to argue that you refunding him money is an admission of fault, that you willing sold the car knowing it needed repairs. Sometimes 'good will' l can get you into trouble, in this case I would end contact with him and not offer him any refund.

[BigBadBear]

Tough cookies for him, would you still feel obligated to give him money if he took the car and drove into a tree at the end of your driveway?

New hotshot driver drivers licence - $75
New sporty type car $10,000
Learning that you suck as driver and shouldn't have beat the livin' shit outta your new ride ------(say it with me!)



Frickin' priceless!!!!

[vietdood]

Originally posted by canuckcarguy


Even if you sell something "as-is, where-is", there is an implied warranty that the item you're selling is fit for the purpose for which you're selling it.

i don't think this is a case of implied warranty. it's a case of buyer beware. buyer should've taken all the necessary precautions to ensure the car was in good shape. as with "sold as is" once the buyer signs the bill of sale then the buyer is accepting the car with "all faults". don't refund the money. if it goes to court then hire a lawyer and countersue. open and shut case.

[SunniSunShine]

what the fuck did this guy think as is meant?

as is means that after they hand you the money and you hand them the bill of sale that you are no longer liable for anything to do with the car and it is in their soul possession, them agreeing to the as is clause in the contract means they understand that if they didnt take the necessary precautionary methods its their fault...

good luck on telling them to fuck off though

[TomcoPDR]

Originally posted by canuckcarguy
I'm not a lawyer, but I'll say this.

Even if you sell something "as-is, where-is", there is an implied warranty that the item you're selling is fit for the purpose for which you're selling it. The obvious example would be if you were selling a 6 cylinder half-ton, and a buyer came and said they were in the market for a truck to pull their 39' fifth wheel. You tell them this is the truck for them, they buy it, and it craps out on their first trip - the vehicle wasn't fit for the purpose for which they purchased it, and they could likely come after you.

As most ppl answer that "implied warranty" would only work if the OP was a dealership, or a PROVEN curber (even if he is, it'll be the planiff's responsiblity to prove that; what are you going to do follow the seller and take pictures of his flipping cars at his house?).

I mean, unless the OP said something to the kid along the lines of: "Yo yo homie, u be da next D.K. (drift king) in Alberta with this thing, dis car be tight, you can take corners @ 110, etc..." Even so, he's a private seller, anything he says is only OPINION.

Even if a salesperson verbally SAY something that contradicts the reality of the vehicle before the purchase, how are you going to prove it in court (that they said it) Come on, we've all seen those hidden cameras with CTV, American channels with all the sales tactics and dealerships knowingly selling repaired salvages as new. (and get away)

A lot of friends force me to used car dealership shopping when I have time (hey it's free lunch), just cause I can spot body repaint and repairs in the sunlight better; when I do spot something and ask the salesperson they say with confidence NOPE. Then I take a magnet out of my pocket and it drops (proving it has thick body filler/Bondo), their face turns red and walks away. The smart ones say: "Oh, I'm not sure, I'll look into it for you, why don't we go for a test drive first?" Now of course I don't state up front "Hi I'm Thomas from Tom Co Paintless Dent Repair and I'm helping my friend spot previous body damages"... <------ POINT: words are just words when a car's being sold, don't be so trusting of people.

We teach our kids not to trust strangers driving 1980's rusted out 1 ton cargo vans saying: "Hey kid, I've got a CANDY lollipop here for ya", because chances are that "candy" lollipop will turn into something else. So why can't we teach 17 year olds better? (I'm not saying anything about the OP's car, but did the 17 year old even get a mechanical inspection?)

[Biga Ramrod]

^^^^ I want him to come with me when I buy my next car! :D

By any chance, did the new owner (17 year old) have a mechanical inspection done? I was thinking because the vehicle is older, isn't the new owner required to have it certified? I think if the kid did have the car inspected and it checked out then that inspection/certification would be 100% proof that the car was perfectly o.k. when sold and that the damages were caused by the new owner.

[Crymson]

I would say that a successful OOP less than 3 weeks before selling it, should be fairly indicative that you had no idea the engine would crap out.

The buyer had every opportunity to have compression checked etc.

Don't let yourself be bullied by some pussy's dad. Offer them nothing, point them to a good shop, and remind them, that they purchased a 16 year old vehicle.

[alexe]

sorry if i repeat i didnt have time to read all these. the way it works with used cars in the private sector basically is buyer beware, thats why you always get a mechanical inspection before buying. if this happened to a dealer it could be returned since AMVIC says the buyer must get fair value out of the car. but i dont beleive it applies to private sales since you are not licenced or anything and the failure could easily of been caused by an over rev. so if come down to it just say 1. the car was running fine with no problems reported on the last inspection. 2. thus the damage was caused by the new owner and therefor you are not responsible. im a car salesmen so i think i know what im talking about just try and explain it to the dad or whatever because he may not know you can over rev a car. most people know dick all about cars especially 10+ year old cars.

[teggypimp95]

Dude dont waste another second of your life on this. When you sell a car and fill out a bill of sale, all cars are sold as is. You not a dealership that may provide a 30 day warantee or what ever.
They could have had the car inspected if they wanted too. If they chose not to that their fault. Anything can happin in 400km. Its a 15 year old skyline you would be dumb not to have it inspected. Just tell them sorry to bad so sad, you has it inspected not to long ago and was fine, they could have done the same. Private sales are sold as is and they cant do anything about it. Dont waste your time or money on a lawyer.

And how do you even know if it just blew or the kid fucked it? All it would have taken is the kid giving it a bit and shifted quick into 2nd instead of 4th. Then lied to daddy that it just "blew up".

[shaggin]

As mentioned earlier you should be fine... The responsibility falls on the purchaser to have the vehicle inspected before agreeing to purchase it. Even though you had an inspection report completed and they accepted that then you again are not liable because it shows that to the best of your knowledge you sold them a well running and sound car.

I hope this helps

[canuckcarguy]

I agree with all the points on this being a private sale and therefore the seller likely not liable for implied warranties, etc. But if this guy and his father go to the extent of filing a civil claim, you might want to try to settle before you get to court, for a reduced amount. In small claims court, you can often lose even if you're right - go sit through a few sessions of provincial court, and you'll see quite a few judges meting out justice (or their version of justice) without strict adherence to the law.

this kid will have his youth on his side, and if he's sympathetic enough, and decides to lie or exagerate about the statements made by the seller, it becomes a game of liar's poker, and you might lose.

good luck, in any event, and let us know how it develops.

[cdnsir]

Yup. The 2 key points here are

1. You sold "As-is"
2. An Inspection is up to their discretion, and not required by you

The only question here is are you ethical in that sale? He might be able to build a case about you purposely hiding the leak... But since you clearly mention that you weren't aware of anything wrong with it before hand... You're not liable to do anything for them.

With that said, since no one really knows the full story other than yourself, please do think about something called karma...

[clem24]

Um, looks like car has been relisted and money refunded... Thread closed?

http://forums.beyond.ca/st/189008/fs-my-90-gtr-again-fk/

Either a really nice guy, a really stupid guy, or a guy that knowingly fucked the kid over and is feeling remorse.

[teggypimp95]

Holy fuck you got bent over if you took the car back. I have been to claims court and its a fucking joke. They mostly likly would have thrown it out before your date even came around. Im sad for you.

[boarderfatty]

this issue has been resolved and the new owner has decided not to persue the issue further. thanks for the advice