Down shifting instead of Braking

[4CylFiero]

It may sound kind off dumb but im pretty much trying to explain when you downshift and let your clutch out slowly to slow the car. What does this have an affect on in your car, what kind off wear is it on your clutch, tranny, etc. I was just curious cause i tend to do that instead of braking but then again im looking to kill the engine/transmission so i can force myself into a swap.

[Super_Geo]

Well if you're looking to end your engine/tranny, then why the hell not. I mean, I don't know how much damage it'd do, but it definately won't make it last longer ;)

I figure brake pads are way cheaper easier to replace (plus it's smoother than a few downshifts).

[5.9 R/T]

Geo's right. The cost of pads and rotors are miniscule to the cost of replacing an engine. Engine brakeing just puts the motor through extra wear and tear that can be easily avoided.

[cocoabrova]

I was taught that the 'proper' way to downshift is to rev-match, downshift, let out the clutch, although I don't consider this to be a means of slowing down. I use it to gain speed when exiting/entering a turn;)

[Wildcat]

when stricly slowing down, push in the cluth all the way and press down on the break until you stop, then throw it back into first again, why spend $800 on a new clutch when you can spend $80 on new brake pads :dunno:

downshifting effects the clutch more than anything i suppose

[Illusionsir]

i dont know much about efficency and wear however i have been downshifting as a way of slowing down in my civic for just about 3 years now and im still on the original clutch with very light wear.

[GTS Jeff]

u gota learn to revmatch!

[littledan]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
u gota learn to revmatch! :werd:

If you rev match I can't see there being too much extra wear... maybe just a little less gas mileage?

[Akagi Redsuns]

You are still wearing the transmission a bit, because the synchronizers are still being used to mesh the gears properly.
The way to do it with no wear is to do a double-clutch downshift.

I personally just keep in gear and put on the brakes....when I get to about 1K RPM, I just clutch in....if traffic starts, I just clutch in and rev-match to the right lower gear.

[Abom]

Downshifting to slow down is perfectly fine. Yes you will wear your clutch a little more, but that's really up to you. Personally, I also find brake pads and rotors are cheaper to replace than a clutch, and you WILL still use your brakes no matter what, so I choose to brake normally. It's really up to you though, both ways are fine :)

[benyl]

double clutching, revmatching, etc... still put wear and tear on the entire system. Brake pads are cheap. Don't downshift if you don't have to...

You will put wear on all your driveline componenets. You might not be wearing out the clutch, but I can almost guarantee that you will have CV shaft/boot/joint issues later as they take the brunt of the downshifting.

For a RWD car, I would check your U joints...

[T5_X]

Originally posted by littledan
maybe just a little less gas mileage?

yah, but only a tiny tiny bit, cause you're just blipping the throttle.


Personally, the only time I downshift when slowing down is a double clutch downshift into turns or when I'm slowing and am anticipating the light turning green. It lets me go into the highest gear possible for that speed without the engine bogging.

[Khyron]

Shrug - I've downshifted in all my cars and never replaced a clutch prematurely.

You're forgetting that downshifting for a light, etc is also a safety thing. The point is if some ass comes up behind you and you have to accelerate safely, you need to be in the right gear, not fumbling around. You REALLY notice this on a bike, but applies to any vehicle.

Also, using engine braking is not bad assuming you're not redline - that's how you're supposed to deal with steep hills etc...

If you hate shifting so much, get an auto. :D

Khyron

[szw]

Originally posted by Wildcat
when stricly slowing down, push in the cluth all the way and press down on the break until you stop, then throw it back into first again, why spend $800 on a new clutch when you can spend $80 on new brake pads :dunno:

downshifting effects the clutch more than anything i suppose

Uhhhh....so say you are slowly braking to a stop, you hold down your brake AND your clutch??? I don't think that so great for your clutch.

[powerslave]

What's so strange about that? When slowing down, I always hold the brake AND the clutch in... you don't want to stall the car in the middle of the road do you?

[B17a]

I engine brake quite a bit in the winter, especially coming into some slippery intersections where brakes are to be used very delicately. But in the summer I'm too lazy so I just slap it into neutral and coast to a stop.

[szw]

Originally posted by powerslave
What's so strange about that? When slowing down, I always hold the brake AND the clutch in... you don't want to stall the car in the middle of the road do you?

Well I never hold my clutch in for more than a second or two, and have never stalled in the middle of the road.

I've just always been told its bad to hold in your clutch and to use it as little as possible. I could be mistaken though since I don't know why exactly.

[Scat]

You can hold your clutch in as long as you want

Yes it may wear the clutch down quicker, but it isn't hurting it. All that will happen is you may have to replace it sooner.

Light downshifting is fine (under 2000rpm in most cars). I can't see that doing any damage and I do it all the time.

[dogstar]

Originally posted by Khyron
Shrug - I've downshifted in all my cars and never replaced a clutch prematurely.

You're forgetting that downshifting for a light, etc is also a safety thing. The point is if some ass comes up behind you and you have to accelerate safely, you need to be in the right gear, not fumbling around. You REALLY notice this on a bike, but applies to any vehicle.

Also, using engine braking is not bad assuming you're not redline - that's how you're supposed to deal with steep hills etc...

If you hate shifting so much, get an auto. :D

Khyron

i agree, on a bike downshifting is essential, especially if youve gotta stop in a hurry.
same goes for in the winter... downshifting can save your ass.

i think its a good habit to get into, because then you learn how to do it properly, which is the key to doing everything well, learning the right way.

[Ashkente]

Originally posted by szw


Well I never hold my clutch in for more than a second or two, and have never stalled in the middle of the road.

I've just always been told its bad to hold in your clutch and to use it as little as possible. I could be mistaken though since I don't know why exactly.

To put it simply, as far as I know, your pressure plate is in it's "natural" state when you're off the pedal, and when you're on it, you're counteracting all the clamping force it has to place on the clutch disc/flywheel, so, like a spring, you wouldn't want to have it compressed all the time, because over time, it would lose some of it's springyness? Heh. Also, stress one the systems used to actually counteract the clamping force.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by powerslave
What's so strange about that? When slowing down, I always hold the brake AND the clutch in... you don't want to stall the car in the middle of the road do you?

I never ride the clutch like that. You either downshift or you stick it in neutral and brake to come to a stop? Why would you ride your clutch and your brake at the same time in normal city driving?

[benyl]

On I bike, I would agree that downshifting is essential. I do it on mine all the time. Reason? Sequential transmission. You can't take it out of sixth and put it into second without going through 5th, 4th, 3rd to get there.

It does however stretch your chain.

[method]

it will take an absolutely ridiculous amount of time to 'wear out' the pressure plate like that.

the thing you're going to wear out from having the clutch in too often is the throwout bearing.

when you're downshifting, the engine is experiencing the EXACT same forces as if you were accellerating. the only thing you're going to wear out is your clutch if you dont match properly. it takes a lot of stupid driving to wear out a friction disc.

[^SkylinE^]

Learn how to heel toe blip it works well matches the revs and when you go road raceing it comes in handy. Im not a pro at it but i practice all the time while crusin around calgary! Kinda fun too :thumbsup:

[4CylFiero]

Originally posted by benyl
double clutching, revmatching, etc... still put wear and tear on the entire system. Brake pads are cheap. Don't downshift if you don't have to...

You will put wear on all your driveline componenets. You might not be wearing out the clutch, but I can almost guarantee that you will have CV shaft/boot/joint issues later as they take the brunt of the downshifting.

For a RWD car, I would check your U joints...

Sorry man no U joints engine in the back, I can't see much wear on it either, if you don't rev match i could see that but then that is sloppy anyways. If i was going to be sloppy about it i would just put the clutch in and coast to a stop. but for now I'll downshift all i want until the duke pukes or the tranny pukes. Oh and for the record my fourth gear is no longer ohhhhh so close im getting excited.

[powerslave]

It's just the way I was taught to drive I guess... I always hold the clutch in and the brake while slowing down to a stop. And, most of the time, while at red lights, I keep the car in gear (first), while holding the brake and the clutch in for the entire duration of the red light... Did it always like this, and never noticed any faster wearing out or anything. the only thing it can be bad for is your left leg, it can get tired after a while.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by powerslave
It's just the way I was taught to drive I guess... I always hold the clutch in and the brake while slowing down to a stop. And, most of the time, while at red lights, I keep the car in gear (first), while holding the brake and the clutch in for the entire duration of the red light... Did it always like this, and never noticed any faster wearing out or anything. the only thing it can be bad for is your left leg, it can get tired after a while.

I always sit in neutral at a light. Just a habit I guess. I will admit the way you do it is safer because in an emergency you are ready to go right away.

[Khyron]

Holding the clutch in does nothing. The only time clutch wear occurs is during the friction slipping of putting it on, and off. So guy putting clutch in and holding it for the whole red light, then launching is less wear than guy who pops it in, shifts neutral, then shifts back to launch. First guy gets a sore leg tho.

But the rpms are so low, who gives a rat. Launching on a hill does way more damage to clutch than engaging/disengaging at idle...

Khyron

[Akagi Redsuns]

Holding the clutch in does cause wear on the throw-out bearing and the pressure plate fingers. In most cases the friction disk does wear out first before the other 2 so usually there is no issue.

[T5_X]

Originally posted by method
.

when you're downshifting, the engine is experiencing the EXACT same forces as if you were accellerating.


no, not really. When downshifting, your foot is off the throttle, therefore, no fuel is being added, and there are no powerstrokes. An engine at 4000 rpm under closed throttle will experience less strain than the same engine, at the same rpm under open throttle, because the one under open throttle is having to compress air/fuel mixture, and have a bottom end/pistons that are dealing with powerstrokes.

[method]

Originally posted by Ranger_X31



no, not really. When downshifting, your foot is off the throttle, therefore, no fuel is being added, and there are no powerstrokes. An engine at 4000 rpm under closed throttle will experience less strain than the same engine, at the same rpm under open throttle, because the one under open throttle is having to compress air/fuel mixture, and have a bottom end/pistons that are dealing with powerstrokes.

well yeah, but you know the point that I was trying to get across... engine braking doesnt cause more wear on the engine.

[Super_Geo]

Originally posted by method


well yeah, but you know the point that I was trying to get across... engine braking doesnt cause more wear on the engine.

You'd think it would though...

Say you're going down a hill. If you leave it in gear, the engine will be going at a high RPM the entire way down (for argument sake, let's say 4000RPM). If you pop it into neutral and slow down with the brakes, your engine will be idling the entire way. Wouldn't that cause less wear on the engine? I mean, it's not going to make a huge difference, but there should be a difference.

[Ashkente]

Originally posted by Super_Geo


You'd think it would though...

Say you're going down a hill. If you leave it in gear, the engine will be going at a high RPM the entire way down (for argument sake, let's say 4000RPM). If you pop it into neutral and slow down with the brakes, your engine will be idling the entire way. Wouldn't that cause less wear on the engine? I mean, it's not going to make a huge difference, but there should be a difference.

I'd say leave it in gear, and brake. You shouldn't be causing wear on the engine, cause it's not doing anything it wouldn't normally do, just compression is helping slow you down. Plus personally, it seems a bit unsafe to be moving at a decent rate in neutral.

[90_Shelby]

Wow, I hope none of you guys actually drive your cars as the powertrain might wear as well.

Can anybody properly advise me on the correct technique to accelerate in my car as not to unfortunately wear any parts.......


You guys worry to much.

[GT2NV]

lol i downshift until i come to a complete stop, and have for many years, if you can properly drive you wont wear out your clutch by downshifting as long as you rev match....

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by littledan
:werd:

If you rev match I can't see there being too much extra wear... maybe just a little less gas mileage? actually, gas mileage can take a huge hit depending on what u do..

i can cut my mileage down to half simply by heel-toeing everytime i can or by downshifting all over the place...

[googe]

You clutch is only experience wear when you are within the friction point. Standing on the clutch (your pedal completely depressed) is no different than shifting into neutral. Just make sure it isnt partially pressed.

There are mixed opinions. When you slow a moving vehicle, the energy is always going somewhere. If you use the breaks, you will put wear on them. If you down shift, you are putting wear on your clutch, engine, and synchros. All of which cost ALOT more to replace than brake pads. Sure they can take more wear, but personally I think youre better off just using the brakes. Engines were made to make your car go, brakes to make them stop ;) Plus, braking is way smoother than downshifting through the gears. I typically brake and clutch at the same time, and either stay on the clutch or shift into neutral depending on how long of a wait I have ahead of me.

There isnt a right way really, people will argue for either side. Up to you where you focus the energy.

[T5_X]

Leaving the car in neutral when coasting to a stop actually consumes more gas than downshifting. Why? In both cases, your foot is completely off the gas. In the case where you are downshifting, your engine is constantly spinning at higher revs, so there is no need for powerstrokes to keep your engine going. When coasting to a stop in neutral (or with your foot in on the clutch the whole time) the engine will start injecting fuel to keep from stalling when it reaches the idling speed. So, contrary to what some may think, you actually get the best gas mileage from straight downshifting, not in neutral, and not rev matching or double clutching.

[4CylFiero]

Originally posted by Ranger_X31
Leaving the car in neutral when coasting to a stop actually consumes more gas than downshifting. Why? In both cases, your foot is completely off the gas. In the case where you are downshifting, your engine is constantly spinning at higher revs, so there is no need for powerstrokes to keep your engine going. When coasting to a stop in neutral (or with your foot in on the clutch the whole time) the engine will start injecting fuel to keep from stalling when it reaches the idling speed. So, contrary to what some may think, you actually get the best gas mileage from straight downshifting, not in neutral, and not rev matching or double clutching.

Thats damn hard to understand, If your at higher RPM's your engine is using more fuel. so if you where to put it in neutral and coast you would be at say 900 RPM instead of 3500 i don't understand your logic for this one. In the other hand that you never came to a complete stop and had to accelerate again i would understand. In this scenario i was strictly talking only about comming to a stop at a set of lights or something not entering a turn. I understand your logic from a point of view based on slowing down and then accelerating but im not sure on what your saying.

[T5_X]

Originally posted by 4CylFiero


Thats damn hard to understand, If your at higher RPM's your engine is using more fuel. so if you where to put it in neutral and coast you would be at say 900 RPM instead of 3500 i don't understand your logic for this one. In the other hand that you never came to a complete stop and had to accelerate again i would understand. In this scenario i was strictly talking only about comming to a stop at a set of lights or something not entering a turn. I understand your logic from a point of view based on slowing down and then accelerating but im not sure on what your saying.

If your foot is off the gas at 3500 rpm, no fuel is being injected into the engine, it is just coasting, you are not using any fuel. At a certain rpm though, your car will automatically start injecting fuel so it won't stall. This is how cars are able to idle on thier own without any throttle input from the driver.

[Cueman]

The proper way to slow down is too speedshift into reverse.

[jdmmavericktR]

I strapped a huge pillow to the front of my car...then to stop, I just let my car slam into the car in front of me. That way, I transfer ALL clutch/brake wear onto THEIR car.

[4CylFiero]

Originally posted by Ranger_X31


If your foot is off the gas at 3500 rpm, no fuel is being injected into the engine, it is just coasting, you are not using any fuel. At a certain rpm though, your car will automatically start injecting fuel so it won't stall. This is how cars are able to idle on thier own without any throttle input from the driver.

Ok now i understand what your saying GOOD POINT im in total agreement now

[Wildcat]

Originally posted by black94gt
lol i downshift until i come to a complete stop, and have for many years, if you can properly drive you wont wear out your clutch by downshifting as long as you rev match....

lies! you bag the shit outta your car and downshift like crayzay!
BTW; many years?.. you mean "almost two years"... :rofl: jj

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by Cueman
The proper way to slow down is too speedshift into reverse. oh, so THATS what ive been doing wrong....all this time ive been revmatch downshifting...

no wonder my tranny grinds!

[rice_eater]

my owner's manual says to downshift when slowing down! as long as you dont downshift at stupid rpms your clutch will be fine...i usually downshift 80-60-40-20 and the revs are nice and low...if my neon can take two years (that's how long i've been bagging it) plus whatever the previous owner did to it and still have a perfect clutch at 150k then no car should have a problem...

[5.9 R/T]

This is exactly like the "is idling the car bad for it?" or "should I warm up my car before I drive it?" threads. Is downshifting bad for your car, yes, will you see any noticeable decrease in reliability, probably not. There is still more wear and tear on an engine going from 3000rpm to idle when you downshift then if you just used your brakes to stop and let the engine idle. As far as clutch wear goes, it doesn't matter how you do it, the more you use the clutch the more it wears. bottom line. But again will there be a significant or noticable decrease in lifetime, probably not. Be good to your car, keep it well maintained (change oil regularly) and it will be good to you, unless you drive a Chrysler or DSM, then your just fucked. haha. :rofl: :thumbsup:

[Ferio_vti]

Only time I downshift is going around corners.
Coming to a stop at a red light, just apply brakes. But on slippery roads during winter, downshifting help to slow down without locking the wheels and maintain control

[FiveFreshFish]

Don't forget about wear on the throw-out bearing.

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by Ferio_vti
Only time I downshift is going around corners.
Coming to a stop at a red light, just apply brakes. But on slippery roads during winter, downshifting help to slow down without locking the wheels and maintain control ????

downshifting actually gives u a lot LESS control when braking cuz its hard to control exactly how much engine braking is applied to the wheels, whereas using the brakes, u can apply as much or as little pressure as is needed to retain control.

ive unintentionally put my car into a slide so many times in the winter from downshifting on slippery roads...

[Redlyne_mr2]

Dont forget to shift lock when going around corners, makes those brakes and steering rack last a little bit longer

[three.eighteen.]

i downshift each gear to second giving each gear about 2-3k in revs to drop heel-toe, i just like the feeling of landing that perfect downshift

[hjr]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
????

downshifting actually gives u a lot LESS control when braking cuz its hard to control exactly how much engine braking is applied to the wheels, whereas using the brakes, u can apply as much or as little pressure as is needed to retain control.

ive unintentionally put my car into a slide so many times in the winter from downshifting on slippery roads... Then stop down shifting, and start heel-toe. A person really shouldnt just downshift (push in clutch, place in lower gear, let out clutch) as it puts a lot of strain on tranny & engine during the engagment. The power isnt evenly applied because the engine has to catch up to the tranny in terms of RPM as the tranny is spinning at a much higher RPM than the engine is, as the engine will be at idle. It can and will throw the back of a RWD car out in slippery conditions. Now if you heel-toe (matching revs while downshifting) , and do it correctly, you actually loose almost no traction at all. It is a very crucial skill to master in order to race through corners in a high powered car.
Also, if a person wanted to have no clutch wear at all, then that person should just use the throttle to shift gears. Going up you need to do nothing but put it into the next gear (it will pop out easily once the throttle is let off, try it), but going down all a person has to do is pull it out of one gear, blip the throttle to match the Engine and tranny RPM's and slide it into the lower gear.

[Scat]

Originally posted by powerslave
It's just the way I was taught to drive I guess... I always hold the clutch in and the brake while slowing down to a stop. And, most of the time, while at red lights, I keep the car in gear (first), while holding the brake and the clutch in for the entire duration of the red light... Did it always like this, and never noticed any faster wearing out or anything. the only thing it can be bad for is your left leg, it can get tired after a while.


Why the hell would you do that? There just isn't any point in holding the clutch in when you could just as easily use neutral.:nut:

[Moonracer]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
????

downshifting actually gives u a lot LESS control when braking cuz its hard to control exactly how much engine braking is applied to the wheels, whereas using the brakes, u can apply as much or as little pressure as is needed to retain control.

ive unintentionally put my car into a slide so many times in the winter from downshifting on slippery roads...

This is a good point, I hear it all the time people saying you should shift down on slippery roads......no...no...no...:) If your revs are to high you could lock up on an icy road and then you are doing skid control....weeeeee fun for sure until you hit something...:rolleyes:

[powerslave]

Originally posted by Scat



Why the hell would you do that? There just isn't any point in holding the clutch in when you could just as easily use neutral.:nut:

Well there really is no specific reason why I do it like that... it just... happens :)
It's not like you wait at lights that long anyways, and if I know it will be a longer wait, then i'll pop it in neutral, yes, but other than that, it's both clutch and the brake while in first. Makes for easier launching too, but then again, you can always keep an eye on the opposing traffic lights and see when yours is about to turn green, so basically it doesn't matter. Like someone else said, this thread is pretty pointless...

[THREE40SEVEN]

Christ... not again.:rolleyes:
Downshifting in not going to hurt anything.. I downshift at EVERY stop, using both the driveline and my brakes slow the car.
Dad's 93 tsi talon... original owner, clutch and tranny. He taught me how to drive ;) almost 150km, and downshifted at EVERY stop.
Both he and I have NEVER replaced a clutch in ANY of our vehicles, unless the clutch was being upgraded to handle the engine upgrades.
No double clutching or rev matching either.

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by hjr
Then stop down shifting, and start heel-toe. A person really shouldnt just downshift (push in clutch, place in lower gear, let out clutch) as it puts a lot of strain on tranny & engine during the engagment. The power isnt evenly applied because the engine has to catch up to the tranny in terms of RPM as the tranny is spinning at a much higher RPM than the engine is, as the engine will be at idle. It can and will throw the back of a RWD car out in slippery conditions. Now if you heel-toe (matching revs while downshifting) , and do it correctly, you actually loose almost no traction at all. It is a very crucial skill to master in order to race through corners in a high powered car.
Also, if a person wanted to have no clutch wear at all, then that person should just use the throttle to shift gears. Going up you need to do nothing but put it into the next gear (it will pop out easily once the throttle is let off, try it), but going down all a person has to do is pull it out of one gear, blip the throttle to match the Engine and tranny RPM's and slide it into the lower gear. heh, last winter was before i learnt to heel toe very well. i WAS revmatching tho..